Baby snake help

[snakekid6996]

I had my first clutch of snakes about two weeks ago. I'm more than excited, however unfortunately I'm having bad luck and I'm not sure what to do or what the problem is. Everything started off fine. 4 out of the 6 ate on the first try, taking it straight from the tongs, but the next day 3 of which had regurgitated. The one that didn't is now eating fine, but none of the others will take any food. Within the past 4 days two of the snakes have been found dead in their enclosure for no apparent reason. I'm not sure if this is something I'm doing wrong or if it's just a bad batch of babies. I need help!
The babies are all kept in 6qt. Tubs in a rack system with paper towels as substrate, and a hide/waterdish. They are kept at a temp. Of about 80°F.
Any help will be appreciated! Thanks!

[Minkness]

Congrats on the new clutch!

To start out, what are they?

Also, I believe you want to wait a minimum of 7 days after a regurgitation. I may be wrong on those numbers, but it sounds like you fed too soon and then offered again too soon.

[dannybgoode]

Did you wait until they had shed? For that first bit before first shed they are absorbing the yolk sac and should not be offered additional food.

[snakekid6996]

Sorry, they're corn snakes! And I did wait until most of them had shed before the first meal and that's when the 4 ate with no issue, but I'm not sure why 3 of which (who had shed) regurgitated and why two of them have passed for no apparent reason

[Aaron_S]

Check your temperatures. It could not be warm enough to digest so they threw up the meal.

[Albert Clark]

Thiis^ ^^^^^^^^. Definitely sounds husbandry related. Sorry for the loss. Double and triple check your temperatures. Number one reason for a regurge is improper temperatures.

[snakekid6996]

Lost a 3rd baby. Triple checked the temps with a thermostat, temp gun, and a spring gauge and they all read right. I even readjusted the prob. of the thermostat so it was in one of the tubs just to make sure that the inside of the tubs were at 80 degrees. It's frustrating, because I'm keeping them the same way I've always kept all of my babies (I get them wholesale from a friend) and haven't had any issues.

[Albert Clark]

I think you should consider raising the temps to about 87F. First I would take them all out and administer 2 to 3 drops of acidophilus directly into the back of their mouths. Only the ones that regurged. Deep clean the tub and put them (the ones that regurged) into separate tubs if possible but maintaining that 87F temp. Don't feed them for ten days and then offer a smaller prey item.

[snakekid6996]

I'll try that. Thanks for the help! I'll let you know what happens

[Andy_G]

86-88 degrees is what you should be aiming for in order for these babies to digest their first couple meals. Other than that, the way you have described that you are keeping them sounds fine. Hopefully things turn around soon.

[Albert Clark]

I'll try that. Thanks for the help! I'll let you know what happens

Cool. Just make sure they have plenty of fresh clean water. If it's too much to put the acidophilus directly into the back of their mouths (regurges only) then put the drops into the clean , fresh drinking water. Good luck.

[Aaron_S]

I think you should consider raising the temps to about 87F. First I would take them all out and administer 2 to 3 drops of acidophilus directly into the back of their mouths. Only the ones that regurged. Deep clean the tub and put them (the ones that regurged) into separate tubs if possible but maintaining that 87F temp. Don't feed them for ten days and then offer a smaller prey item.

Why would you put that stuff in a snakes mouth? Thats even more stress.

[Albert Clark]

Why would you put that stuff in a snakes mouth? Thats even more stress.

It's the required preparation used in animals that have regurged and it's a replacement for lost gastric digestive enzymes. The brief period of stress is outweighed by the benefit of instilling the drops. If op is unable to adequately perform the procedure i said it was acceptable to put the drops in the water. After two regurges, I think it's acceptable to give the drops as quickly as possible.

[Albert Clark]

Lactobacillus acidophilus is a benign enzyme replacement for animals (reptiles) that have been or are on antibiotics. It's the good bacteria that is being replaced by the cultures in the product. Animals that have regurges are also benefitting from l.b.acidophilus. It's a natural preparation and is widely used in these instances. It's perfectly acceptable to instill the drops into drinking water.

[Aaron_S]

It's the required preparation used in animals that have regurged and it's a replacement for lost gastric digestive enzymes. The brief period of stress is outweighed by the benefit of instilling the drops. If op is unable to adequately perform the procedure i said it was acceptable to put the drops in the water. After two regurges, I think it's acceptable to give the drops as quickly as possible.

1. Nothing is required. I don't know who has begun saying these drops are required for a regurge.

2. How do you know the snakes will drink from the water with the drops in them? It goes like this. Someone puts drops in the water, the snake eats fine the next go around. The person then proclaims "WOW these drops did it!" When in actuality the snake just handled it all on it's own and never drank.

Lactobacillus acidophilus is a benign enzyme replacement for animals (reptiles) that have been or are on antibiotics. It's the good bacteria that is being replaced by the cultures in the product. Animals that have regurges are also benefitting from l.b.acidophilus. It's a natural preparation and is widely used in these instances. It's perfectly acceptable to instill the drops into drinking water.

Do you have a study since you've specifically outlined reptiles? As well these animals aren't or have not been on antibiotics so why would you be using the product?
I get the idea I'm just having a hard time changing my opinion on how to handle a regurge without solid facts.
Plenty of times people in the reptile world jump on something like this and proclaim it as amaze balls but it's really not.

[Albert Clark]

It's a recommendation! The op and anyone else can take it or leave it. It's much easier to place the l.b. acidophilus into drinking water for inexperienced keepers. Studies? No. It's pretty common knowledge if the animal regurged he's lost some of the essential "good bacteria" in his gut. Nutri bac, bene bac, and the other brand names for l.b. acidophilus are recommended. Will he survive without it , sure. Will he feel better quicker, absolutely. Regurges are partially digested foodstuffs that are accompanied by the reptiles acidic enzymes and can irritate the upper gi tract and esophagus. L.b.acidophilus aids in replacing good bacteria and enzymatic properties.

[Andy_G]

1. Nothing is required. I don't know who has begun saying these drops are required for a regurge.

2. How do you know the snakes will drink from the water with the drops in them? It goes like this. Someone puts drops in the water, the snake eats fine the next go around. The person then proclaims "WOW these drops did it!" When in actuality the snake just handled it all on it's own and never drank.



Do you have a study since you've specifically outlined reptiles? As well these animals aren't or have not been on antibiotics so why would you be using the product?
I get the idea I'm just having a hard time changing my opinion on how to handle a regurge without solid facts.
Plenty of times people in the reptile world jump on something like this and proclaim it as amaze balls but it's really not.

I agree with all of this. With young hatchlings such as in this case, less is certainly more.

[Albert Clark]

It's also the combination of the increased temps and the l.b.acidophilus as well as feeding a smaller prey item next time that will decrease the chances of a repeat episode.

[Albert Clark]

I agree with all of this. With young hatchlings such as in this case, less is certainly more.

Andy, and this is fine. It's a simple educated recommendation for the op to consider. His hatchlings are dying and it's just a recommendation. I am not trying to win a argument or disagreement. Nor am I pushing what I would do on someone else. A simple request for the op to consider. Intervention was begun with the increased temps and that is a good place to start.

[Andy_G]

Andy, and this is fine. It's a simple educated recommendation for the op to consider. His hatchlings are dying and it's just a recommendation. I am not trying to win a argument or disagreement. Nor am I pushing what I would do on someone else. A simple request for the op to consider. Intervention was begun with the increased temps and that is a good place to start.

All good, Albert. Having both sides present their thoughts certainly doesn't cause harm.

[Aaron_S]

It's also the combination of the increased temps and the l.b.acidophilus as well as feeding a smaller prey item next time that will decrease the chances of a repeat episode.

How do you know the acidophilus has any effect? How do you know it isn't just the increased Temps doing all the work?
This is frustrating and a pet peeve of mine. It isn't you specifically Albert, you simply presented the case to talk about.

This is rampant in the hobby. This type of "education". So many myths from decades ago were formed from this type of thinking. It simply means keepers are too arrogant and too stupid to actually figure something out.

Example, people have spoke about impaction for decades with lizards and substrate. It isn't a real CAUSE of death. It's a symptom of an underlying issue. The lizard dies and in animal death throes they usually open their mouth and take piles of dirt in. The keeper sees the dead animal and instead of figuring out what's actually wrong or admitting they did a shoddy keeping job they point to the "impaction". Taking all guilt away from them and then worst of all, passing around this information along with their "perfect" husbandry skills causing more animal deaths.

People need to bring real facts, studies to back up their claims. Bring proof. In this case have snakes regurging but don't change prey size or Temps or anything else and show me the proof. There's been decades of snakes recovering from a resurgence just fine with additives so you need to show a better way of doing it with undeniable truth. I'm not above changing my ways but I won't change them on a whim.

Andy, and this is fine. It's a simple educated recommendation for the op to consider. His hatchlings are dying and it's just a recommendation. I am not trying to win a argument or disagreement. Nor am I pushing what I would do on someone else. A simple request for the op to consider. Intervention was begun with the increased temps and that is a good place to start.

I will question you on the "educated recommendation". You haven't provided any education on the effects with reptiles. Specifically snake regurgitation.

[Albert Clark]

Well actually it's really not that important Aaron. Like I said previously it's a recommendation. To avoid derailing the op request for help and someone else with another suggestion to the regurges and death of the op hatchlings. I will agree to disagree. As far as the "educated recommendation" that is my 30 years in the emergency medical field, 25 years of experience with keeping, breeding, and dealing with reptiles. Colubrids and pythons. Keepers rarely are arrogant and or stupid. They may just be honestly ignorant and not well read. And I don't think they are neither stupid as you put it. They are looking for answers and help.

[Aaron_S]

Well actually it's really not that important Aaron. Like I said previously it's a recommendation. To avoid derailing the op request for help and someone else with another suggestion to the regurges and death of the op hatchlings. I will agree to disagree. As far as the "educated recommendation" that is my 30 years in the emergency medical field, 25 years of experience with keeping, breeding, and dealing with reptiles. Colubrids and pythons. Keepers rarely are arrogant and or stupid. They may just be honestly ignorant and not well read. And I don't think they are neither stupid as you put it. They are looking for answers and help.

Negative. Arrogance is huge in this industry.

Except me, it's never arrogance if you're better than the rest of the world at something. ;) (I may or may not be kidding)

I will agree to disagree except you had said it was REQUIRED to use this. Not a simple recommendation. You stated it as fact and as soon as you were challenged for actual information to back up the claim you decided to back down and "agree to disagree". Sorry Albert but your recommendation holds no water with me. (OP and anyone else reading can make up their own minds and I appreciate you adding something to the conversation/thread that otherwise wouldn't be here.)

Except me, it's never arrogance if you're better than the rest of the world at something. ;)

[Albert Clark]

Guess it's all perspective. OP. Any updates on the dilemma with the hatchlings?

[Albert Clark]

Pet Authoity brand L.b.acidophilus.

[Albert Clark]

Dosage and ingredients

[Albert Clark]

Dosage and instillation options.

[Aaron_S]

Shouldn't believe everything on a label. Did you know that "organic" products only need a small percentage of organic ingredients to be considered "organic" by the FDA? Labels aren't studies as asked for to back up the claims of actually being helpful. That could be water sold as some miracle product.

Also, that doesn't back up any claims made previously in the thread.

[dannybgoode]

I don't know about the US bit here in the uk some of the fertilisers and pesticides organic farmers are allowed to use are really quite nasty but because they are 'natural' they're ok for organic use.

In fact some of the synthesised compounds are actually better.

Anyway back on topic I've read some of the studies and trials of the human equivalent for such things and they've been shown to be pretty ineffective in replacing gut flora. Note I have more than a passing interest in this area as I don't have a bowel and even the mildest antibiotics knocks my guts right out so am always looking for something that will help.

I'd be interested in seeing some scientific trials of probiotics in reptiles.

[Albert Clark]

I don't know about the US bit here in the uk some of the fertilisers and pesticides organic farmers are allowed to use are really quite nasty but because they are 'natural' they're ok for organic use.

In fact some of the synthesised compounds are actually better.

Anyway back on topic I've read some of the studies and trials of the human equivalent for such things and they've been shown to be pretty ineffective in replacing gut flora. Note I have more than a passing interest in this area as I don't have a bowel and even the mildest antibiotics knocks my guts right out so am always looking for something that will help.

I'd be interested in seeing some scientific trials of probiotics in reptiles.
Thanks for weighing in db. Reptile magazine has a article favorably discussing the use of l.b.acidophilus and I am looking for it. Scientific trials I just don't know about. I am interested in hearing from the op and his experience with the product.

[dannybgoode]

Thanks Albert. I'm always interested in learning. I'm fortunate that I've never had a snake regurge on me but it may happen at some time.

Unfortunately there's no hope for me! I'll just get horrendously nauseous every time I have antibiotics.

[Aaron_S]

Thanks for weighing in db. Reptile magazine has a article favorably discussing the use of l.b.acidophilus and I am looking for it. Scientific trials I just don't know about. I am interested in hearing from the op and his experience with the product.

It's great you have a magazine article. However, you'll need to dig for papers. Specifically peer reviewed as those aren't biased as a magazine article could be.

Very easily a favourable article could be bought/paid for by the company wanting to push a new product.

[snakekid6996]

I haven't administered any drops yet, as they've only regurgitated once. If they regurg again than I'll most likely try adding it to the water dish. I'm about to try feeding them again today. I didn't rise the temps all the way to 87, but I did bump the temps up a bit. I'm also going to try ripping the skin off the belly of the pinky mice, because I've heard that speeds up the digestion and reduces the risk of regurgitation. Thanks for everyone's input and I'll keep you updated :)

[Andy_G]

I haven't administered any drops yet, as they've only regurgitated once. If they regurg again than I'll most likely try adding it to the water dish. I'm about to try feeding them again today. I didn't rise the temps all the way to 87, but I did bump the temps up a bit. I'm also going to try ripping the skin off the belly of the pinky mice, because I've heard that speeds up the digestion and reduces the risk of regurgitation. Thanks for everyone's input and I'll keep you updated :)

I've never heard of that before. Good luck and perhaps let us know how that works.

[Albert Clark]

I haven't administered any drops yet, as they've only regurgitated once. If they regurg again than I'll most likely try adding it to the water dish. I'm about to try feeding them again today. I didn't rise the temps all the way to 87, but I did bump the temps up a bit. I'm also going to try ripping the skin off the belly of the pinky mice, because I've heard that speeds up the digestion and reduces the risk of regurgitation. Thanks for everyone's input and I'll keep you updated :)

Well that's great that you've started to remedy the problem by boosting the temperature. I would consider cutting the pinky in half lengthwise while it is still frozen, as that will limit the gore and hemorrhaging and hanging organs. It's also reducing overall prey size. You can also call your nearest exotic vet office and see if they would be so kind as to let you speak to the vet about the l.b.acidolphilus and see what he or she thinks about the product use if the animal regurges again.

[snakekid6996]

Well, out of the three babies remaining two of them ate. One of them was the one that I haven't had any problems with so that wasn't a surprise. The second one was one that had regurgitated, but fortunately, after two days, he still hasn't regurgitated this meal, so I think it's safe to say he won't.

Well that's great that you've started to remedy the problem by boosting the temperature. I would consider cutting the pinky in half lengthwise while it is still frozen, as that will limit the gore and hemorrhaging and hanging organs. It's also reducing overall prey size. You can also call your nearest exotic vet office and see if they would be so kind as to let you speak to the vet about the l.b.acidolphilus and see what he or she thinks about the product use if the animal regurges again.

I didn't see this comment until after I had already fed the babies. When I tear the skin, I just pinch the belly skin and create a small tear, then pull down my thumb to fold the skin back. This only pulls away the thin layer of skin, but there is a very thin lining underneath that you can see holds the organs in. I've never had a problem with much gore or any organs hanging out. I'll try it the way you recommended next time I try to feed the remaining snake that hasn't had a meal.

I've never heard of that before. Good luck and perhaps let us know how that works.

One of my good friends is a larger scale breeder. This is one of the tricks she has used on regurging babies. I believe the idea is that it allows the snake's stomach acids to enter the mouse's body and begin breaking it down quicker, which reduces the change of regurgitation. So far so good with the snake that just ate, but I'll keep everyone updated.

[Albert Clark]

Great news! I am glad that there hasnt been any more regurges. As far as the gore and bleeding and hanging organs, that usually happens when you cut the prey after its thawed. Thats why i mentioned to cut while still frozen. Congrats.