Resuced Hog island boa and a few questions [Archive]

acidonangles

08-13-16, 12:23 PM

Yesterday I drove 4 hours to pick up the hog. I wasn't going to take him but the old owner was slacking and knew it and wanted to rehome. He said if he didn't find a home for the snake he was going to let it go outside. Gave me everything he had for the snake which wasn't much but he gave me the 55 gallon tank, decor which was meant to act as hides but are too small, and uth which is meant for a 10 gallon with nothing to control temps.

Hes 3 years old and eats adult mice. The old owner was feeding him 2 mice every 2 weeks.

Cool end of tank is around 78 while the warm side is around 85 with a hot spot of 90. Humdity is hovering around 60-65%. I have the water dish under the ceramic heat emitter to keep humidity up. I have him on eco earth coconut fiber.

I plan on getting better hides, another water dish(i like to have 2 in case I'm not home when they trash one), make a humid hide, a proper sized uth and a thermostat to go with it.

A few questions :P
How often should I feed? One mouse every week or every 2 weeks?
Would vines and good section cups hold up of he tried climbing?
Or what are some other options for climbing space?
And any tips or things I should add?

trailblazer295

08-13-16, 12:31 PM

How big is he? I'm guessing it sounds like he should be eating rats. Mice will be more expensive.

No suction cup will hold a boa up in the air unless it's a tiny baby. Could try leaning branches on angles and see if he will use it. It varies boa to boa but doesn't hurt to offer it. If he does use it then you can look into better and more intricate climbing options.

Depending how big he is you could create a second platform to climbing on. It will create 2 teirs and maximize your cage. It's common in carpet cages. I bought a large branch for my BCI. Provides cover and a climbing option.

A picture of your setup would help as well. Good luck.

acidonangles

08-13-16, 12:53 PM

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet (http://m.imgur.com/amvsZiM)
Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet (http://m.imgur.com/aw7OXmM,atZ6nDZ,78ohFFT)

Some not to good pictures for now.

Tsubaki

08-13-16, 01:52 PM

Beautiful animal, but definetly not a hog island. That's a hypo boa, he looks like he should be on rats in stead of mice. :)

bigsnakegirl785

08-13-16, 01:56 PM

That's not a Hog Island boa. It's a hypo Colombian-type. I see no reason to believe it's a mix, either.

Judging by your hand next to it, it's either the size of my ghost boa, or in between my sunglow and ghost boa. So, it should probably be eating weaned rats. Which are 2-3x the size of a jumbo adult mouse.

The bedding also looks dry, which isn't good for a tank set up. I pour water directly into the bedding, and mix it up. Do it in sections so if you mess up you can just mix in the dry bedding to dry it out. When you're done, it should be dark and expanded from its dry state, but still fall freely from your hands without clumping up. If it clumps, it's too wet.

Ditch the analog thing there and get a digital hygrometer/thermometer, you'll get better results. Humidity should be 70-80%.

Best case scenario you ditch the tank completely and buy a tub or PVC enclosure, it will make your life easier. A tub is really cheap and you can get one set up for well under $100, including heat tape and a thermostat. You just can't have ambient heat, so that's why if you can afford it, I'd advise a PVC enclosure, so you can get a heat panel set up in it. You're looking at several hundred dollars, though, between the cage and the panel. You can still use a cheap thermostat like the Hydrofarm on Amazon, but I'd advise getting a Herpstat or Vivarium Electronics with pulse-proportional as they are more reliable than Hydrofarm and pulse-proportional is healthier for your heating elements than ON/OFF.

Also: a tub isn't suitable for life-long housing, so eventually you'd need to invest in a bigger enclosure.

trailblazer295

08-13-16, 01:57 PM

Good looking boa for sure, someone can correct me but looks like a salmon. Hard to tell scale for size but looks like he should on medium rats if not large rats every 3-4 weeks.

bigsnakegirl785

08-13-16, 02:03 PM

Good looking boa for sure, someone can correct me but looks like a salmon. Hard to tell scale for size but looks like he should on medium rats if not large rats every 3-4 weeks.

Salmon is a line of hypo, you cannot tell by looking at them if they are salmon, you have to have papers that they come directly from Rich Ihle's line. Without the papers, it can only be called hypo.

Definitely not medium rats, way way too small of a boa. Medium rats are best suited for 5'-6' boas, and larges for 6'+.

trailblazer295

08-13-16, 02:07 PM

Salmon is a line of hypo, you cannot tell by looking at them if they are salmon, you have to have papers that they come directly from Rich Ihle's line. Without the papers, it can only be called hypo.

Definitely not medium rats, way way too small of a boa. Medium rats are best suited for 5'-6' boas, and larges for 6'+.

Thanks for the clarification on salmon vs hypo.

We don't know this boas size right now. Without a scale for reference it could be 5ft already at 3 years old as previously stated. Some people have big hands while others have very small hands.

bigsnakegirl785

08-13-16, 02:25 PM

Thanks for the clarification on salmon vs hypo.

We don't know this boas size right now. Without a scale for reference it could be 5ft already at 3 years old as previously stated. Some people have big hands while others have very small hands.

They have their hand right next to the snake, at the snake's level, it is at most 4' long, even if the person had big hands there's no way the snake is 5'+ long unless their hands were literally the size of a dinner plate, or bigger.

Also the snake is in a 55 gallon tank. That's 4'x1'.

trailblazer295

08-13-16, 02:35 PM

A 55g is 12.75"L x 48.25"W x 20.187"H. Compare the thickness of the body to fingers. My boa is 41" and barely more than 2 of mine and I have much smaller hands. My guy is 41" 564g at 1.5yrs old

Bottom line is without a weight and a measurement we don't have accurate size for proper feeding.

bigsnakegirl785

08-13-16, 02:40 PM

A 55g is 12.75"L x 48.25"W x 20.187"H. Compare the thickness of the body to fingers. My boa is 41" and barely 3 of mine and I have much smaller hands.

Bottom line is without a weight and a measurement we don't have accurate size for proper feeding.

I'm not sure how long my ghost is, but she's roughly 4' and she's almost as big around as my wrist and 500 grams. My hands are teeny, 5" spread and 3" width.

Although there's a big difference in hand sizes, there isn't a big enough difference to make a 4' snake look 5'-6' next to someone else's hand.

If OP could give us a weight that would be helpful, but length will probably be more difficult. If they could get a photo on SerpWidgets, that will give us a range within half a foot either way, but in my experience it's not a useful tool if you need an accurate length record.

trailblazer295

08-13-16, 02:55 PM

My boas feeding schedule is as follows.

keep him on 1 appropriately sized prey item every 7 days until he reaches 18 months then from 18 to 36 months you can feed every 14 to 21 days. Once your boa reaches 36 months you are safe to feed every 3 to 4 weeks.

acidonangles

08-13-16, 04:25 PM

Thank you everyone for the replies! I figured it wasn't a hog island but that's what I was told and so was the previous owner. I plan I moving him to a pvc tank around Xmas. Planning on getting a uth with a thermostat and getting some digital hydrometer and thermometers. What's a good size enclosure for him? And the substrate is kinda dry right now bedside I had to quickly set this tank up. The guy said he was giving to relate the snake outside of i couldn't come and get it. I will weigh him and try and get better pics

acidonangles

08-13-16, 04:51 PM

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet (http://m.imgur.com/YAXAmsg,KcfuJFI)

A few more pics for refrence. I'll use a measuring site to try and get the length. I'll also weigh him in a few.

Aaron_S

08-13-16, 05:02 PM

...Also: a tub isn't suitable for life-long housing, so eventually you'd need to invest in a bigger enclosure.

Incorrect. There are racks big enough for boas. Especially a boa that is stunted like this one, it will most likely not obtain average adult size.

...you have to have papers that they come directly from Rich Ihle's line. ...

Papers can be forged quite easily. They mean nothing without coming from a reputable person.

Salmon is all but dead due to this.

What's a good size enclosure for him?...

Best size enclosure is the one where the snake feels comfortable enough to eat consistently for you right now. I would not go any larger than a 4x2 for this particular snake.

Minkness

08-13-16, 05:13 PM

He looks like my Treasure!

Also, what Aaron said.

acidonangles

08-13-16, 05:23 PM

Do you guys have recomdations for hydrometer and thermometers. Also if I get a pvc enclosure would a radiant heat panel work best? And would a 4x2 pvc work?

bigsnakegirl785

08-13-16, 09:08 PM

Incorrect. There are racks big enough for boas. Especially a boa that is stunted like this one, it will most likely not obtain average adult size.

imho no. Boas are not suited to racks, and even the Iris Christmas tree totes are too thin in width and too short in height to be proper boa enclosures.

Also, this boa is not stunted. 4'-5' is perfectly reasonable for a 3 year old boa, a boa doesn't have to reach 6' by its 3rd birthday to not be stunted. Even a year older and it still would be a good size for its age, if a bit small if it's 4' and not 5'.

(It could be underfed and underweight, but it's not stunted at all.)

Also, why no larger than a 4'x2'? If OP wants to offer something larger they can. I put my boa in his 6'x2'x3' when he was 5'-5.5', he did fine in it. I had my 3.5' ball python in one of equal dimensions, he went into it with feeding problems and within a few months he began eating. Before I was kicked out, then I got to start all over again. :/

If you're buying into the "snakes stress out in big enclosures" myth it's 100% not true, it's open spaces not big enclosures that stress them out.

Aaron_S

08-14-16, 06:19 PM

imho no. Boas are not suited to racks, and even the Iris Christmas tree totes are too thin in width and too short in height to be proper boa enclosures.

Incorrect. I've seen breeders with 4 x 18 size bins.

Also, this boa is not stunted. 4'-5' is perfectly reasonable for a 3 year old boa, a boa doesn't have to reach 6' by its 3rd birthday to not be stunted. Even a year older and it still would be a good size for its age, if a bit small if it's 4' and not 5'.

I'd say it is. Underfed/underweight is also a type of stunting. If given a proper diet this snake would be bigger and longer. Therefore it's okay to assume it's stunted.

Also, why no larger than a 4'x2'? If OP wants to offer something larger they can. I put my boa in his 6'x2'x3' when he was 5'-5.5', he did fine in it. I had my 3.5' ball python in one of equal dimensions, he went into it with feeding problems and within a few months he began eating. Before I was kicked out, then I got to start all over again. :/

If you're buying into the "snakes stress out in big enclosures" myth it's 100% not true, it's open spaces not big enclosures that stress them out.

Actually it has nothing to do with that myth. It's the fact this is a strange snake in a brand new setting. It hasn't had a proper enclosure in forever. It's MUCH easier to get this snake stabilized and the husbandry key on a smaller enclosure. THEN worry about upsizing.

I know you have a few animals that things work for them. Cool, it works for you and them. However it's a small sample size to give blanket advice as you do. In this scenario things should be handled a little differently.

franks

08-14-16, 08:24 PM

I'd say it is. Underfed/underweight is also a type of stunting. If given a proper diet this snake would be bigger and longer. Therefore it's okay to assume it's stunted.
.

To grow a snake to its "capacity" is unhealthy. I do not agree with the notion that snakes need to be regimentally fed max sized prey items. All of the leading breeders in our hobby started realizing this 5 years ago. The sooner we catch on the sooner we can start keeping animals into their actual life expectancies. If we are talking boas specifically, check out Vin Russo. Dr. Boback studies boa diet and has alot to say on the subject as well.

I agree with Aaron that it benefits new snakes (and hatchlings) to be acclimated in a tub. I do not even use substrate until I have a few months of feedings and stools documented. I am not saying its wrong, personally I just find it easier and perfectly controlled.

bigsnakegirl785

08-14-16, 08:42 PM

Incorrect. I've seen breeders with 4 x 18 size bins.

I'd say it is. Underfed/underweight is also a type of stunting. If given a proper diet this snake would be bigger and longer. Therefore it's okay to assume it's stunted.

Actually it has nothing to do with that myth. It's the fact this is a strange snake in a brand new setting. It hasn't had a proper enclosure in forever. It's MUCH easier to get this snake stabilized and the husbandry key on a smaller enclosure. THEN worry about upsizing.

I know you have a few animals that things work for them. Cool, it works for you and them. However it's a small sample size to give blanket advice as you do. In this scenario things should be handled a little differently.

Christmas tree totes are 6' and something like 1' wide. Still not enough imo. 12"-18" is not enough to accommodate the girth of an 8' boa. It needs to be no less than 2' wide. The height is also barely above 1'. Imo they should be offered no less than 2' of height, but 18" is absolute smallest limit.

A snake can be underweight without being stunted, as long as they aren't overly underweight. A 6' boa would be considered oversized for the age the snake is, so if it was being fed a "proper diet" and was any larger than it is now, it would be oversized. It is a perfect length for its age.

It's possible it was overfed the first year or two of its life and then underfed, which could account for it being normal size but underweight. Honestly, the snake doesn't look underweight to me, though. Maybe a bit dehydrated, but not underweight and not undersized.

Yes the new situation definitely makes sense, in general though there's normally not a problem with it. While the boa settles in, it's fine to put it in something smaller, it's not like at 4'-5' boa a 4'x2' is a necessity anyways, just didn't want OP to think they could never upgrade the snake.

(Also I find a top-opening enclosure rather cumbersome for working with a 6'-8' boa that's going to weigh 8-30 lbs.)

trailblazer295

08-15-16, 08:37 AM

My male bci is 41" 564g at 1.5yrs old following a 1 appropriately sized prey item every 7 days. Now at 18 to 36 months he'll be fed every 14 to 21 days. Then 3-4 weeks after that.

Aaron_S

08-15-16, 08:44 AM

To grow a snake to its "capacity" is unhealthy. I do not agree with the notion that snakes need to be regimentally fed max sized prey items. All of the leading breeders in our hobby started realizing this 5 years ago. The sooner we catch on the sooner we can start keeping animals into their actual life expectancies. If we are talking boas specifically, check out Vin Russo. Dr. Boback studies boa diet and has alot to say on the subject as well.....

I 100% agree with this. I didn't mean to indicate that I am "for" growing snakes to capacity. I meant a more healthy regiment than the one this snake has had to date.

I have believed for some time that most snakes have been overfed. It's why I stick to a simple rule set for my animals and they all receive smaller meals compared to what others feed their snakes.

It's a small sample size but I've been growing up my ball pythons slower than normal. Some obtain 4 - 5 in length and 2500+ grams. Some are smaller around the 3 - 4 foot mark and weigh 1600 - 1900 grams. Yet they all produce eggs consistently with zero slugs over the past 3 years. I think that indicates mature and healthy female snakes.

Christmas tree totes are 6' and something like 1' wide. Still not enough imo. 12"-18" is not enough to accommodate the girth of an 8' boa. It needs to be no less than 2' wide. The height is also barely above 1'. Imo they should be offered no less than 2' of height, but 18" is absolute smallest limit.

Why is everything so black and white for you? Who said anything about an 8' boa being stuck in a tub? You're using extremes to prove your point. Further, you're assuming I am making a blanket statement. My statement is simply that some boas can fit into some rack systems quite well.

A snake can be underweight without being stunted, as long as they aren't overly underweight. A 6' boa would be considered oversized for the age the snake is, so if it was being fed a "proper diet" and was any larger than it is now, it would be oversized. It is a perfect length for its age.

Where do you get your info? Length has far less to do with overall health than anything else. Snakes range in length that it's difficult to say "well at such and such length this snake is healthy but 5 inches shorter and it's unhealthy."

I've learned a long time ago that body shape/weight are far more of an indicator of health than length is.

Yes the new situation definitely makes sense, in general though there's normally not a problem with it. While the boa settles in, it's fine to put it in something smaller, it's not like at 4'-5' boa a 4'x2' is a necessity anyways, just didn't want OP to think they could never upgrade the snake.

(Also I find a top-opening enclosure rather cumbersome for working with a 6'-8' boa that's going to weigh 8-30 lbs.)

I don't think the OP thought they couldn't upgrade. Again, nothing is black and white.

Aaron_S

08-15-16, 08:45 AM

My male bci is 41" 564g at 1.5yrs old following a 1 appropriately sized prey item every 7 days. Now at 18 to 36 months he'll be fed every 14 to 21 days. Then 3-4 weeks after that.

Exactly! Length has far less of an indicator of health than anything. That's nearly 4 feet already at under two years of age for a male!

The snake is in great health and will fill out it's body over the next few years.

Minkness

08-15-16, 08:56 AM

Just a quick comment on Aaron's statement about length of snake vs health of snake.

To me, this would be like saying short peopl are unhealthy because they don't get the same height as taller people. But, like Aron stated, 2 short people can be different in health if one is extremely over/under weight while the other is at a 'bealthy' weight.

Now, I know snakes aren't like peopls. But it's the same general concept.

Andy_G

08-15-16, 09:36 AM

I 100% agree with this. I didn't mean to indicate that I am "for" growing snakes to capacity. I meant a more healthy regiment than the one this snake has had to date.

I have believed for some time that most snakes have been overfed. It's why I stick to a simple rule set for my animals and they all receive smaller meals compared to what others feed their snakes.

It's a small sample size but I've been growing up my ball pythons slower than normal. Some obtain 4 - 5 in length and 2500+ grams. Some are smaller around the 3 - 4 foot mark and weigh 1600 - 1900 grams. Yet they all produce eggs consistently with zero slugs over the past 3 years. I think that indicates mature and healthy female snakes.

Why is everything so black and white for you? Who said anything about an 8' boa being stuck in a tub? You're using extremes to prove your point. Further, you're assuming I am making a blanket statement. My statement is simply that some boas can fit into some rack systems quite well.

Where do you get your info? Length has far less to do with overall health than anything else. Snakes range in length that it's difficult to say "well at such and such length this snake is healthy but 5 inches shorter and it's unhealthy."

I've learned a long time ago that body shape/weight are far more of an indicator of health than length is.

I don't think the OP thought they couldn't upgrade. Again, nothing is black and white.

Beat me to it.

acidonangles

08-15-16, 03:29 PM

Didn't think this was gonna start a mini argument ��

Minkness

08-15-16, 03:31 PM

No one ever does lol.

Not your fault though. =)

bigsnakegirl785

08-15-16, 05:20 PM

Why is everything so black and white for you? Who said anything about an 8' boa being stuck in a tub? You're using extremes to prove your point. Further, you're assuming I am making a blanket statement. My statement is simply that some boas can fit into some rack systems quite well.

Where do you get your info? Length has far less to do with overall health than anything else. Snakes range in length that it's difficult to say "well at such and such length this snake is healthy but 5 inches shorter and it's unhealthy."

I've learned a long time ago that body shape/weight are far more of an indicator of health than length is.

I don't think the OP thought they couldn't upgrade. Again, nothing is black and white.

People do stick 8' boas in tubs, all the time. I don't really feel a boa over 5' should be kept in a tub, but that's just me. Other people can keep them in one longer if they wish, but a full grown boa (which is usually over 6') isn't suitable for a rack or tub unless that boa is of a dwarf variety offered ample height.

I said nothing of length indicating health, just that certain lengths are average for certain ages. Despite an individual's growth rate, you are not going to get a boa to 6' by its 3rd birthday without overfeeding it in some capacity. That said, being a bit under or oversized is fine, so long as the snake is not being overfed as they do grow at their own pace.

And that's exactly what I'm saying. Not only is the boa of an average size for its age, it also appears to be in mostly good health and good body tone.

acidonangles

08-15-16, 06:18 PM

More body pics. Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet (http://m.imgur.com/sOLBCGb,SkZ6k04,VNgZk5k)

And he ate. I gave him a large adult mouse and will be ordering some rats (not sure what size yet) later this week. Humidity has been around 70.

acidonangles

08-15-16, 06:18 PM

Also, thank you everyone for helping me out.

Minkness

08-15-16, 06:42 PM

Definitely a hypo and DEFINITELY underweight. Try getting him on small rats and feed once a week until he gains some body weight and muscle tone. He may be the right 'age' to be fed bi-weekly, but he needs callories and nutrition NOW.

Poor thing. =(

trailblazer295

08-15-16, 06:50 PM

You either have the forearm of a bodybuilder or he is very thin. A pretty accurate length and a weight would be very helpful. I know accurate lengths with snakes is hard. I lay mine out on the floor and a measuring tape beside them yo ucan get a few inches in range.

Feeding wise if you have the option of chicks it would be good to add into the rotation of food.

Minkness

08-15-16, 06:59 PM

Forearm size aside, I'm looking at all the loose skin and total lack of any muscle tone visible. I know the pics aren't so great, but that's unmistakable.

A varied diet is good once the boa is back on track and gaining weight. For now, work on getting him on rats. Hopefully he's not stick on mice.

If he is, you can thaw a nouse and a rat togetger (called scenting) and you shouldn't have an issue. You could even iffer both feeders if he'd take them.

bigsnakegirl785

08-15-16, 07:37 PM

The snake doesn't look underweight...you can't see any ribs and the snake has fine muscle tone. That "loose skin" is probably just the snake pushing up against their arm. In the full body-pics, the snake looks fine, too.

The skin is only bunched up in that one place, look, I can move the skin on all my boas like that, too. They don't store their fat under the skin, so the skin is going to move around.

bigsnakegirl785

08-15-16, 08:07 PM

http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p600/dtr_2009_/DSC_1943_zpstqzugvl1.jpg (http://s1157.photobucket.com/user/dtr_2009_/media/DSC_1943_zpstqzugvl1.jpg.html)

http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p600/dtr_2009_/DSC_1944_zpsu643vkv4.jpg (http://s1157.photobucket.com/user/dtr_2009_/media/DSC_1944_zpsu643vkv4.jpg.html)

http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p600/dtr_2009_/DSC_1949_zpsksq4dlg0.jpg (http://s1157.photobucket.com/user/dtr_2009_/media/DSC_1949_zpsksq4dlg0.jpg.html)

http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p600/dtr_2009_/DSC_1948_zpswrpqqphp.jpg (http://s1157.photobucket.com/user/dtr_2009_/media/DSC_1948_zpswrpqqphp.jpg.html)

bigsnakegirl785

08-15-16, 08:12 PM

Also, to be on top, we really need a length and/or weight record for your boa acidonangles, or another photo of it next to a universally recognized object (full body preferably). Like, ironically, a banana. For scale. Then we can better gauge what size rat you'll need.

acidonangles

08-15-16, 08:18 PM

I'll weigh him tomorrow and try to get a measurent. I'll also throw a banana near him for some more reference.

Minkness

08-15-16, 08:38 PM

And if you asked me BSG, your snakes look on the thin side as well. Just my 2 cents, not that you'll care.

bigsnakegirl785

08-15-16, 08:49 PM

Minkness, I think you're used to seeing obese boa constrictors, my boas are not underweight in the slightest and if you spent some time in a boa constrictor group seeing the average body tone of a boa you'd know that.

Minkness

08-15-16, 09:01 PM

Are boas that different from any other snake when under weight? If any other snake wrinkled like that it would be considered underweight. What makes boas any different? I'm sorry, but just because you think you know something doesn't mean you do. I could be just as wrong as anyone else, including you, but that boa looks pretty thin to me and needs groceries.

So let's say he has a 4 foot boa that's 3 years old, but was powerfed for the 1st year and a half of it's life to grow it faster, then this last pwrson gets a hold of it and starves it. Sure it would still grow, but let's be honest, we don't even actually know the age. It's a rescue. For all we know the previous guy lied or was lied to about age and the issue is just going down hill.

Forget age, look at tone, thickness, shine, sheds, bowl movements.

I took on a '9 month old' BP that was all of 70 grams....they could have just as easily told me she was a hatchling and I would have believed them. Now she's a healthy 1200g, sheds and poops like a pro and has no other issues. I fed her like a hatchling, not like a 9 month old. That's just how you have to look at ANY rescue. Not by what is told but by what we see with our own eyes. Period.

To me, that boa, and some of yours, look thin. Just because you CAN feed less, doesn't mean you should. Point blank. Do what's vest for the animal. Not every situation is text book and one shouldn't expect such when dealing with any living, breathing, creature.

bigsnakegirl785

08-15-16, 09:04 PM

Their skin wrinkles because it's skin. The skin is free from the skeletal structure. They do not store fat under their skin like we do, so the skin will move freely. Their fat is stored internally, around their organs and in structures called fatty deposits. Wrinkled skin is not a sign of thinness in any snake unless they are emaciated, in which case you'd see skeleton structure as well.

Less is always better, regardless of the species. Fatty liver disease is a real problem, and snakes survive famine better than they do feast, snakes are not built to have large stores of fat. Large stores of fat result in that fat travelling to the liver and killing them. Like with cats, except the process is much slower. (To be clear I'm talking about fatty liver disease, FLD kills cats in either a matter of days or weeks with no food idr, in snakes it can take a few months of a fat/obese snake not eating.)

bigsnakegirl785

08-15-16, 09:37 PM

As a side note, there's a difference between a snake that has skin that you can move and one with loose/baggy skin. Skin that fits the form but can be pinched, like in my snakes is 100% normal, and belongs on a healthy animal. On an underweight/emaciated animal, the skin will hang but that's less because the snake doesn't have any fat reserves and more because the muscle mass is breaking down to feed their body. In which case, the tissue covering the ribs and spine becomes thin enough you can view them. This isn't to be confused with a young boa, who hasn't built sufficient muscle mass to cover their ribs.

So, in short, just because you can move the skin on your snake it doesn't mean it's underweight. So don't worry acidonangles, your snake isn't underweight, it's quite healthy-looking.

Minkness

08-15-16, 10:19 PM

bigsnakegirl785

08-15-16, 10:23 PM

I just got home and first thing I did was pull my boa out and punch his skin...and while I haaaaate to admit it, it wrinkled. You can imagine my cussing....weighed him too. 1947 grams. About 4.5 feet long and 3 years old and fed a small or medium rat every 2 weeks. Now I'm curious.....is he healthy or overnight?

Only way to tell is to post a picture so we can see the body tone. Feeding seems a bit too often but the weight seems ok. I'd personally be feeding a boa of that age every 3-4 weeks. I don't have a weight of my boa when he was that small, and none of my other boas are that big yet, but he was 1,984 grams when he was just under 5' (~4'10").

Aaron_S

08-16-16, 07:06 AM

Didn't think this was gonna start a mini argument ��

No harm dude. No one is "arguing". Seems like healthy debate to the mod team. *takes off mod hat, it's purple.*

People do stick 8' boas in tubs, all the time. I don't really feel a boa over 5' should be kept in a tub, but that's just me. Other people can keep them in one longer if they wish, but a full grown boa (which is usually over 6') isn't suitable for a rack or tub unless that boa is of a dwarf variety offered ample height.

Okay and when did we start discussing what ****** random keepers do here? As I said who brought up 8' boas in small tubs? Only you were thinking of it because to me and anyone else here, it didn't make sense! Further, what you feel and what is fact are two different things.

I said nothing of length indicating health, just that certain lengths are average for certain ages. Despite an individual's growth rate, you are not going to get a boa to 6' by its 3rd birthday without overfeeding it in some capacity. That said, being a bit under or oversized is fine, so long as the snake is not being overfed as they do grow at their own pace.

You continually bring up length of snake vs. age as an indicator of it's health and not being stunted. A stunted snake isn't in good health, you have said "this snake at 4 - 5 feet at 3 years is not stunted". Which means you believe due to it's length that it's not unhealthy.

So I've raised far more snakes than you and most people on this forum. We're talking in the hundreds at this point. Of various species. I don't have the time to feed different every day of the week so they all get fed on the same day just some species get skipped a week or two.
Anyway, I've had the same species, from the same birth year, fed the same food supply, fed the same day grow at completely different rates. Again, why is everything so black and white for you? (You keep avoiding the question) These are living, breathing creatures so it's ignorant to go out and say "a 3 year old boa at 6 feet is overfed! No other reason for it!"

Only way to tell is to post a picture so we can see the body tone. Feeding seems a bit too often but the weight seems ok. ....

It's cute that you feel you are some authority on boa body tone and feeding regiment.

Minkness

08-16-16, 08:19 AM

^ This....all of this.....

Andy_G

08-16-16, 10:34 AM

^ This....all of this.....

Yup...I thought it was just me.

Aaron_S

08-16-16, 11:56 AM

I forgot my *mic drop*

acidonangles

08-16-16, 12:46 PM

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet (http://m.imgur.com/PvYZKEs,9qia3HO)

More pics and the scale said he was 140g while not moving. When moving around it said he was around 90g.

I don't vape in my room with reptiles are spray anything strongly sented, but is vaping in the same room bad for them?

Minkness

08-16-16, 01:13 PM

That weight seems off....I have a baby BP that's 184 grams and like...a footish long....

I still think he needs to be on rats. Either weaners or smalls once a week.

acidonangles

08-16-16, 01:27 PM

I don't know if the scale is off or what happened. But I don't think that's his actual weight.

I used the serpent widget and he's about 3'3"

acidonangles

08-16-16, 01:27 PM

I'll try reweighing him. I'll try something different

Aaron_S

08-16-16, 02:11 PM

I'll try reweighing him. I'll try something different

If you have a bin with a lid on it use that. Put the bin on the scale with the lid then zero it out. Put the snake in the bin and replace lid. Voila should get a pretty good read.

Minkness

08-16-16, 02:59 PM

That's what I have to do with my larger ones. Works pretty well.

Andy_G

08-16-16, 03:22 PM

I forgot my *mic drop*

...and now I've run away with your purple MOD hat too.

Minkness

08-16-16, 03:34 PM

If only ;)

Aaron_S

08-16-16, 03:56 PM

...and now I've run away with your purple MOD hat too.

Why you gotta be like that?

Minkness

08-16-16, 04:19 PM

Because he's awesome like that =P

bigsnakegirl785

08-16-16, 05:18 PM

Okay and when did we start discussing what ****** random keepers do here? As I said who brought up 8' boas in small tubs? Only you were thinking of it because to me and anyone else here, it didn't make sense! Further, what you feel and what is fact are two different things.

You continually bring up length of snake vs. age as an indicator of it's health and not being stunted. A stunted snake isn't in good health, you have said "this snake at 4 - 5 feet at 3 years is not stunted". Which means you believe due to it's length that it's not unhealthy.

So I've raised far more snakes than you and most people on this forum. We're talking in the hundreds at this point. Of various species. I don't have the time to feed different every day of the week so they all get fed on the same day just some species get skipped a week or two.
Anyway, I've had the same species, from the same birth year, fed the same food supply, fed the same day grow at completely different rates. Again, why is everything so black and white for you? (You keep avoiding the question) These are living, breathing creatures so it's ignorant to go out and say "a 3 year old boa at 6 feet is overfed! No other reason for it!"

It's cute that you feel you are some authority on boa body tone and feeding regiment.

Because when people say they use racks, they normally use them for life, and although a juvenile or subadult is fine in one it seems a little restricting to keep a full grown adult in one.

Being stunted isn't necessarily an indicator of health, but of feeding. A snake that was previously stunted but then fed properly is a healthy snake. It's why I've been trying not to draw a line between being small/big and unhealthy. I have only been stating that boas reach certain lengths around certain ages on average with a proper feeding regimen. I have seen very few, if any boas reach 6' before they turned 3 without some sort of overfeeding. My own boa wouldn't have even reached 6' at 3 years if he hadn't gotten meals twice the size he should have been getting for over a month. He would have barely been over 5'. If either of my other boas reach 6' before (aka by, the word I've been using) they turn 3, I'll eat my words, but the average I see for 3 year olds is 4'-5'.

Yes they do grow at different rates, that doesn't make a 6' 3 year old any less overersized. If they got there without being powerfed, that's their own fast growth. They're still large for their age, the same could be said of humans if we want to compare them. A 6' 13 year old is still large, regardless of how they got there.

There's thousands of members on this forum, and many of them are active. If I thought I was an authority I would have asked them to send me a PM not post a picture.

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet (http://m.imgur.com/PvYZKEs,9qia3HO)

More pics and the scale said he was 140g while not moving. When moving around it said he was around 90g.

I don't vape in my room with reptiles are spray anything strongly sented, but is vaping in the same room bad for them?

I agree the weight sounds off...my 3' boa is over 100 grams heavier than your's.

I wouldn't vape in the same room, no, and if possible not the same house. As a person with asthma, I can tell you that smoke will travel throughout a house even with all the doors closed.

Minkness

08-16-16, 05:33 PM

Vape isn't smoke. It's water vapor laced with nicotine and flavor.

As for same room, probably not, just because of the potential nicotine. Also, make sure you wash your hands before handling if you have vaped at all that day so that the chems don't transfer that way either.

Aaron_S

08-17-16, 01:50 PM

Because when people say they use racks, they normally use them for life, and although a juvenile or subadult is fine in one it seems a little restricting to keep a full grown adult in one.

Oh so you've lumped all boa keepers who use a rack system into one category. Gotcha. You're making blanket assumptions about people based of a few bad apples you've "experienced".

In MY experience, all my boa friends use racks for neonates, juvies and a select few smaller adults. I've been in enough boa rooms to see enclosures for larger adults.

Don't make assumptions.

... I have seen very few, if any boas reach 6' before they turned 3 without some sort of overfeeding. Your previous posts all draw a line in the sand that any boa reaching 6' at 3 years of less are overfed with NO exception. You have no way of 100% verifying this by the way.

My own boa wouldn't have even reached 6' at 3 years if he hadn't gotten meals twice the size he should have been getting for over a month.

Really? A single month attributed how much growth? How can you say this as fact? How do you know the boa wouldn't have grown XX inches in a month with smaller meals or was just about to hit a growth spurt in general?

As for your snakes. Too small of a sample size. But sure, go ahead and eat your hat. I have a time believing any results from you though.

bigsnakegirl785

08-17-16, 06:17 PM

Oh so you've lumped all boa keepers who use a rack system into one category. Gotcha. You're making blanket assumptions about people based of a few bad apples you've "experienced".

In MY experience, all my boa friends use racks for neonates, juvies and a select few smaller adults. I've been in enough boa rooms to see enclosures for larger adults.

Don't make assumptions.

Your previous posts all draw a line in the sand that any boa reaching 6' at 3 years of less are overfed with NO exception. You have no way of 100% verifying this by the way.

Really? A single month attributed how much growth? How can you say this as fact? How do you know the boa wouldn't have grown XX inches in a month with smaller meals or was just about to hit a growth spurt in general?

As for your snakes. Too small of a sample size. But sure, go ahead and eat your hat. I have a time believing any results from you though.

It's hard not to when I see it all the time, good for you and your friends though.

Well seeing as he grew half a foot in a matter of a couple months...yeah pretty sure on that one. He was at the end of his growth spurt when that happened, went from growing 2"-3" every other week (he went from 2.5' at 1 year to 5' at 2) to growing maybe an inch or two a month for a short time until that happened. He was well past 2 years old, and past the usual growth spurt period.

I'm just saying usually when I see that, it's people feeding their 6' boa 1-2 jumbo rats every week or something equally ridiculous, which is definitely overfeeding. If I see a snake being fed conservatively and still reach 6' at 3 I'll probably believe it's more normal than I do now, but quite a few boa breeders have told me the same thing, that 6' at 3 years is oversized, and they also have the extensive experience you say you have. Being told exactly that is what is causing me to be more conservative with my feeding, because Cloud was called out as being large for his age by several experienced keepers.

Aaron_S

08-18-16, 09:38 AM

It's hard not to when I see it all the time, good for you and your friends though.

Well seeing as he grew half a foot in a matter of a couple months...yeah pretty sure on that one. He was at the end of his growth spurt when that happened, went from growing 2"-3" every other week (he went from 2.5' at 1 year to 5' at 2) to growing maybe an inch or two a month for a short time until that happened. He was well past 2 years old, and past the usual growth spurt period.

I'm just saying usually when I see that, it's people feeding their 6' boa 1-2 jumbo rats every week or something equally ridiculous, which is definitely overfeeding. If I see a snake being fed conservatively and still reach 6' at 3 I'll probably believe it's more normal than I do now, but quite a few boa breeders have told me the same thing, that 6' at 3 years is oversized, and they also have the extensive experience you say you have. Being told exactly that is what is causing me to be more conservative with my feeding, because Cloud was called out as being large for his age by several experienced keepers.

Yeah I didn't read this. I'm done with the discussion. I've said my piece. You've said yours. Readers can decide at this point what they want to take away.

I grow tired of circular discussions. Thanks though.

Tsubaki

08-18-16, 11:00 AM

Not all that interested in joining this discussion as most things have been said already, but one thing rubbed me the wrong way a bit.

Because when people say they use racks, they normally use them for life, and although a juvenile or subadult is fine in one it seems a little restricting to keep a full grown adult in one.

There are many full grown boas who can be kept in a rack just fine, just depends on your rack system. A friend of mine has two of these, they work fine for most adult boa constrictors.

Andy_G

08-18-16, 12:47 PM

Those are really nice racks. :)

Not gonna dance around and write out a long winded post. The following is not aimed at anyone in particular but if anyone takes it personal, so be it.

Properly sized racks are fine for properly sized boas. To state anything else would be based on inexperience, self-perceived moral high ground, and opinion...not fact. If you hate racks...good for you.

Growth rates also vary between individuals of the same lineage, husbandry and feeding regimens. That's a fact.

Take from that what you will but please stop beating this dead horse.

bigsnakegirl785

08-18-16, 02:27 PM

Not all that interested in joining this discussion as most things have been said already, but one thing rubbed me the wrong way a bit.

There are many full grown boas who can be kept in a rack just fine, just depends on your rack system. A friend of mine has two of these, they work fine for most adult boa constrictors.

6" is barely taller than their bellies, though. :/ My 6.5' boa is 3"-4" tall, he wouldn't be able to curl up in that.

Once OP posts their re-done lengths and weights, we can get back on topic. If the snakes is indeed 3'3" it's definitely a bit undersized, but being so young I'm sure it will still get to a respectable size, but feeding it healthily is more important atm.

Whoops it's 9"...that's a lot better. haha Pretty terrible with numbers. Still too short for me, but people can do as they will as long as the snake is offered ample room for it to move around. They don't really need mental stimulation, but they're still vertebrates with bones and muscles that need to move around or stretch.

acidonangles

08-18-16, 08:07 PM

bigsnakegirl785

08-19-16, 11:21 AM

I think my scale might be ****ed(?) I reweighed him and it saying he is around 210 grams this time around. I put a container that fit on the scale with nothing handing over, put him in, and it was bouncing between 200-220. And he is indeed almost 3'3"

Ok that weight sounds a lot better. Still low, but better. If SerpWidgets says he's 3'3", he could be as large as 3.5'. I don't put much stock in SW, it's usually off by 2"-4" (I've had it be off by over a foot before). If you measured him by hand then that's a more accurate measurement.

At 3'3", a jumbo mouse is probably best, at most a weaned rat. Just feed one of those every 2-3 weeks until he puts on a little weight. Small rats will definitely be too large for the time being, I'd wait until he's 4'+ for those.

acidonangles

08-19-16, 11:35 AM

At 3'3", a jumbo mouse is probably best, at most a weaned rat. Just feed one of those every 2-3 weeks until he puts on a little weight. Small rats will definitely be too large for the time being, I'd wait until he's 4'+ for those.

I usually order my f/t feeders online so I might order some weaned rats and small rats. Or is that not a good idea?

bigsnakegirl785

08-19-16, 11:42 AM

I usually order my f/t feeders online so I might order some weaned rats and small rats. Or is that not a good idea?

Unless you have a snake on smalls, I'd stick to the weaned rats. My sunglow girl is about your snake's length and she's still on jumbo mice as weaned rats are still a tad too large for her. Last I measured her she was 3' even but she could have grown a few inches. Hence why I advised getting both jumbo mice and weaned rats, if your snake is underweight it's probably not going to have a lot of girth, but since it could be bigger than what SW is saying, it could potentially still take weaned rats. I would get jumbo mice and weaned rats, and see which one is more appropriate. It should leave at most a small bulge with no scale separation, and I'd try for smaller at first if the snake is underweight as you don't want to shock their system. Generally, in cases of underweight snakes, you start out with much smaller prey items than normal and slowly work up.

Minkness

08-19-16, 11:48 AM

A weaned or small small rat would be better and should be offered once every 7 days. Once he is about 4-4.5 feet then you can do 1 med every 2 weeks.

bigsnakegirl785

08-19-16, 12:02 PM

A weaned or small small rat would be better and should be offered once every 7 days. Once he is about 4-4.5 feet then you can do 1 med every 2 weeks.

If the snake is underweight, it's best for them to go with a smaller meal. Small rats are too large for a 3' snake, I doubt it could get one down. They should be aiming for the smaller meal until the snake gains some weight.

Smalls are good for boas around 4', mediums 5'-6'.

bigsnakegirl785

08-19-16, 12:07 PM

Also, a small rat is 21-38% of the snakes weight. That's ridiculous to be advising.

Minkness

08-19-16, 12:08 PM

bigsnakegirl785

08-19-16, 12:19 PM

That's why I said small small. It wasn't a typo. Not all sized rats are equal. And at this point rats would be better because of the higher content of fat vs an adult retired breeder mouse (which is what jumbo mice are).

So, same size/weight as a jumbo mouse with a better nutrient load.

Ah didn't see the second small you typed. Honestly, with the weight the snake is throwing, and the fact jumbos are smaller with a slightly higher fat content (not enough to be dangerous), I think jumbos will be the better option.

The snake is definitely underweight. The body tone looks fine, but my 3' girl just weighed in at 302 grams after a massive poop, and my 3.5'-4' girl is 502 grams, so slow and steady for this one.

Smaller meal, so as not to shock their system, and a fat content to help them gain weight. Weaned rats are also a good option, but only if it's not leaving a large bulge. Again, don't want to shock their system.