Yellow on MBK [Archive] - sSNAKESs : Reptile Forum

Minkness

08-13-16, 07:14 AM

So, my MBK has quite a bit of yellow in him, and some of it is pretty bright. Also, his eyes are more of a dark dark brown and not black either. And the 'black' of his body is nore like a blackbrown mix.

Will he for sure turn all black as an adult?

He's only a juvie right now. A great feeder, good sheds so far, pretty active and usually out in the open while he was in a tub. I moved him to a tank last night and he did alot of cruising and settled to lay on top of his hides instead of un them. Hasn't bitten or busked and I don't think I have even seen a tail rattle out of him yet....over all he's a pretty neat snake to have....but the yellow kinda bothers me....does that make a bad person? ;-;

SWDK

08-13-16, 07:19 AM

I don't think it will turn black, but I'm not 100% certain on that. The only MBK's I've seen are jet black throughout from hatchlings to adults. My MBK was a 12" hatching and it was 100% black. I've also only seen all black ones at the reptile shows as well. You mix be integrated with something to get that type of coloration.

Albert Clark

08-13-16, 07:30 AM

Mink , I think you have a desert kingsnake there. Lampropeltis getula splendida. I could be wrong though.

Minkness

08-13-16, 07:32 AM

That had been my experience as well until this guy. I got into with a guy a while back through craigslist about yellow on an MBK (for all I know it's the same snake that's changed hands a few times) and he swore that MBKs 'originated' from desert kings or something and swore they turned all black as they aged and that I no clue what I was talking about.

And maybe I didn't, but this 'MBK' just seems suspicious, and if you saw him in peraon you'd see the deserrt king influences because his head is the blackest part of him. Very weird little snake.

Edit: Posted same time as Albert lol. But I have to agree. Seems more desert. He definitely has the grey rainbow belly of an MBK though, so he's probably a mix.

Albert Clark

08-13-16, 07:43 AM

He's still a very nice looking specimen! Certainly could be a intergrade. And if he is, he may get more black as he ages. Time will tell. Maybe the locale he's from influenced the coloration difference.

EL Ziggy

08-13-16, 08:00 AM

I'm inclined to agree with you guys. He looks like a desert king or intergrade to me as well.

Minkness

08-13-16, 08:09 AM

Got sunlight pics just now. He's actually way prettier in the sun!

Albert Clark

08-13-16, 08:25 AM

Amazing animal! I still think desert King is the more likely genetics.

Minkness

08-13-16, 08:30 AM

Do you think he may be a melanistic desert?

Andy_G

08-13-16, 10:18 AM

I'm certain that is in fact an integrade as I previously proposed, Logan. :)

Minkness

08-13-16, 10:28 AM

Haha. Thanks Andy. Where did you propose that though? When I first gor him?

Andy_G

08-13-16, 10:33 AM

Yeah I mentioned the possibility I think. I've seen quite a few of them like this with other breeders.

Minkness

08-13-16, 10:51 AM

Well, good thing I didn't pay for him then lol. I still kinda like him thiugh. Kinda different and wild looking haha.

Albert Clark

08-13-16, 12:34 PM

If you breed him back to a MBK female you should be able to hatch out a clutch of 50%MBK and 50% desert king. Or at least be able to see his true genetics.

Minkness

08-13-16, 02:13 PM

Yeah, but I don't want to breed kings lol.

franks

08-14-16, 01:46 AM

Andy_G

08-14-16, 08:34 AM

Minkness

08-14-16, 09:20 AM

Yet another reason I'm not interested. Besides, there's so many better breeders out there all ready, and it isn't a species you can have fun with about morphs like corns, rats, balls, boas, ect.

For someon interested in the genetics though and experimenting with croses to see what xomes of them, I personally don't see an issue with with it. I wouldn't, but that is me.

Albert Clark

08-14-16, 11:08 AM

Yeah- looks like a cross to me as well. Definitely would guess desert king. I think breeding him is a horrible idea. What is the point? The fun with kings is their different localities and how each locality has different looks and behaviors. Why contribute to screwing with that?

Well, breeding is how we find out the genetics of a animal in question. It's actually the responsible thing to do to find out what the animal is truly as far as his possible genetics as well. If Mink just wants a pet that's his perogative. But breeding is a tool in the hobby and is actually a great idea for those who are inquisitive.

Albert Clark

08-14-16, 11:11 AM

I agree 100% .

C'mon Andy you can't really be serious! You agree with that?

Minkness

08-14-16, 11:12 AM

This makes me wonder if they have blood tests to find out... Kind of like they do with dogs now. You can see the % of what breeds are in mutts now by sending in a DNA sample.

Albert Clark

08-14-16, 11:17 AM

I agree 100% .

This makes me wonder if they have blood tests to find out... Kind of like they do with dogs now. You can see the % of what breeds are in mutts now by sending in a DNA sample.

That, unfortunately I don't have a answer for you but it sounds plausible and may be pricey if it does exist. Good thinking.

Albert Clark

08-14-16, 11:26 AM

Yeah- looks like a cross to me as well. Definitely would guess desert king. I think breeding him is a horrible idea. What is the point? The fun with kings is their different localities and how each locality has different looks and behaviors. Why contribute to screwing with that?

That's the other advantage to breeding, it takes the guess work out of species and subspecies classifications. However it is up to the keeper and all I am doing is putting the suggestion out there to prove out the genetic makeup of the snake.

franks

08-14-16, 12:20 PM

Well, breeding is how we find out the genetics of a animal in question. It's actually the responsible thing to do to find out what the animal is truly as far as his possible genetics as well. If Mink just wants a pet that's his perogative. But breeding is a tool in the hobby and is actually a great idea for those who are inquisitive.

This is different. We know it is not a morph. Breeding it would be irresponsible. What is there to find out? Are you that curious as to what two localities make up this snake? Ok, lets say you are that curious- you breed the snake. What are you going to breed it with? A desert king or an MBK? Now you end up with 24 hatchlings, none of which answer your question and all of which need homes. You are not answering the question at hand but perpetuating the problem that demands the question be asked in the first place. It is irresponsible. There are so many examples of how this philosophy has affected our hobby from hog island boas to carpet pythons. I am not a "purist" but I do believe that we have some responsibility to preserve the species and locals that we work with. It is what makes the hobby interesting.

franks

08-14-16, 12:25 PM

To the OP- i am not trying to insinuate that you have a "tainted animal, I think it will make a great pet. I love kingsnakes and they are fun to keep. Some locals even "crossbreed" (kind of hard to call it that) in the wild. I think you should keep and enjoy what is a fascinating and honestly a good looking animal. It is just my opinion that this animal should not be bred.

Albert Clark

08-14-16, 01:07 PM

This is different. We know it is not a morph. Breeding it would be irresponsible. What is there to find out? Are you that curious as to what two localities make up this snake? Ok, lets say you are that curious- you breed the snake. What are you going to breed it with? A desert king or an MBK? Now you end up with 24 hatchlings, none of which answer your question and all of which need homes. You are not answering the question at hand but perpetuating the problem that demands the question be asked in the first place. It is irresponsible. There are so many examples of how this philosophy has affected our hobby from hog island boas to carpet pythons. I am not a "purist" but I do believe that we have some responsibility to preserve the species and locals that we work with. It is what makes the hobby interesting.
You may see it as different but I don't. Breeding it will prove out the genetics. OP was questioning the genetics and there is only one way to prove out the animal and that's through a breeding project. No. I am not curious but Mink is! Hatchlings can be given away, that's a nonissue. The whole idea of a project is to get a sense of what the genetics are or are not. Sometimes it entails breeding back hatchlings. That's what we do. That's what's good for the hobby and producing new captive strains. In essence, it's research. Preserving the hobby is finding out suspicious genetics, proving and disproving, herping, going in search of new and wild species. Line breeding , outcrossing and keeping the species diverse. How do you know this snake isn't a morph? By looking at it? The definitive way to find out is to breed it.

chairman

08-14-16, 02:14 PM

If you breed him back to a MBK female you should be able to hatch out a clutch of 50%MBK and 50% desert king. Or at least be able to see his true genetics.

I'm not sure that this is correct. If Mink's snake is 50% MBK and 50% desert king then breeding to a MBK will produce hatchlings that are 75% MBK. There will be no pure MBKs and no pure desert kings, just 75% crosses.

Kind of like I have 87.5% IJ carpets. I can't breed them to a pure coastal and get pure coastals out of the mix nor can I breed to a pure IJ and get some pure IJs. My IJ is a jaguar, so I'll have 50% expressing that gene visually, but they'll all still be crosses.

So that's where I think the misunderstanding is here, MBK and desert king are not visual morphs that can be proven. They're species that, once crossed, can not be purified (without a cool lab).

Andy_G

08-14-16, 02:35 PM

I am totally serious. Albert, I fail to understand how breeding an unknown cross animal back to one of it's possible original subspecies would figure anything out or preserve anything. It would create more animals with even more hard to explain and questionable genetics. How would you label and sell the offspring when you don't know true lineage? Is the snake Logan has a 50/50 cross for sure? Was it crossed with a black king or a desert king? What makes you think breeding would create clarity here? Horrible idea in my opinion in this situation, sorry. It's NOT a morph we are talking about here either.

Andy_G

08-14-16, 02:39 PM

You may see it as different but I don't. Breeding it will prove out the genetics. OP was questioning the genetics and there is only one way to prove out the animal and that's through a breeding project. No. I am not curious but Mink is! Hatchlings can be given away, that's a nonissue. The whole idea of a project is to get a sense of what the genetics are or are not. Sometimes it entails breeding back hatchlings. That's what we do. That's what's good for the hobby and producing new captive strains. In essence, it's research. Preserving the hobby is finding out suspicious genetics, proving and disproving, herping, going in search of new and wild species. Line breeding , outcrossing and keeping the species diverse. How do you know this snake isn't a morph? By looking at it? The definitive way to find out is to breed it.

None of the things mentioned above can be attained by crossbreeding subspecies. Once again, these aren't morphs we are talking about.

Albert Clark

08-14-16, 02:54 PM

I'm not sure that this is correct. If Mink's snake is 50% MBK and 50% desert king then breeding to a MBK will produce hatchlings that are 75% MBK. There will be no pure MBKs and no pure desert kings, just 75% crosses.

Kind of like I have 87.5% IJ carpets. I can't breed them to a pure coastal and get pure coastals out of the mix nor can I breed to a pure IJ and get some pure IJs. My IJ is a jaguar, so I'll have 50% expressing that gene visually, but they'll all still be crosses.

So that's where I think the misunderstanding is here, MBK and desert king are not visual morphs that can be proven. They're species that, once crossed, can not be purified (without a cool lab).
That's why your breeding, it may call for the hatchlings to be bred back to each other or be bred back to the desired parent.

Albert Clark

08-14-16, 02:58 PM

None of the things mentioned above can be attained by crossbreeding subspecies. Once again, these aren't morphs we are talking about.

How do you know that? What if Minks King is a aberrantly colored MBK? You don't know that unless you breed back for specificity. He may well be a morph but you won't know for sure unless you breed him.

Andy_G

08-14-16, 03:02 PM

Because I have seen the crosses before, Albert. What makes you think that it is? It's not a ball python.

Albert Clark

08-14-16, 03:14 PM

Because I have seen the crosses before, Albert. What makes you think that it is? It's not a ball python.

It's not a hog nose either. Mink is the one with the question. I felt it was a desert kingsnake from the beginning. Well we just will agree to disagree. Mink can have the pet he wants and he already stated he's not interested in breeding kings. It is what it is.

Andy_G

08-14-16, 03:21 PM

It's not a hog nose either. Mink is the one with the question. I felt it was a desert kingsnake from the beginning. Well we just will agree to disagree. Mink can have the pet he wants and he already stated he's not interested in breeding kings. It is what it is.

Hognose have different subspecies that people stupidly cross once in a while actually haha. This discussion actually reminds me if someone crossing a western with a mexican thinking it was a morph. I agree that we won't get anywhere with this discussion and you're right that Logan doesn't even want to breed it so let's move on.

franks

08-14-16, 04:47 PM

And its not a cobra either...

Pogie

08-17-16, 08:52 PM

Either way it's a pretty snake! I like the black and yellow color on him.

Minkness

08-17-16, 08:58 PM

Lol Franks, just saw your reply!

Also, I looked at another reputable breeder's site. And they have both a 'solid' black MBK for 99$ and a 'patterned' MBK for less. Sooooo....not sure what's going on with all that, but the patterned one they posted looks JUST like mine. So maybe it's a locality morph but still classified as an MBK?

Andy_G

08-18-16, 12:30 PM

It would be a selectively bred for trait (polygenetic) and a lot of people suspect that it's origin is actually from naturally ocurring intergrades which happen all the time...so in that regard it could be considered a locality trait but the "purity" would still be up in the air. I still think the term "morph" is a dirty word in this situation though hehe. :)

Minkness

08-18-16, 12:37 PM

Lol, fair enough, and probably a pretty good theory on that!

Either way, he's so far proven to be an interesting critter and way more out and active and curious than my 'pure' MBK from eons ago lol. (Ok, bot eons, but you get the idea lol)

Andy_G

08-18-16, 12:55 PM

Hey if I had him, i'd be keeping him too! He's neat!

Aaron_S

08-18-16, 02:04 PM

That's why your breeding, it may call for the hatchlings to be bred back to each other or be bred back to the desired parent.

This isn't a morph. If the hatchlings were bred back to one another you'd come out with more intergrades.

There's no secret here. I honestly think you're confusing hybrids/intergrades with mutations. They don't work the same.

How do you know that? What if Minks King is a aberrantly colored MBK? You don't know that unless you breed back for specificity. He may well be a morph but you won't know for sure unless you breed him.

If this is a morph it shouldn't be bred. It looks like ****.

And its not a cobra either...

Best post in here.

Lol Franks, just saw your reply!

Also, I looked at another reputable breeder's site. And they have both a 'solid' black MBK for 99$ and a 'patterned' MBK for less. Sooooo....not sure what's going on with all that, but the patterned one they posted looks JUST like mine. So maybe it's a locality morph but still classified as an MBK?

Take names with a grain of salt. Lots of intergrades and even hybrids have been given names to increase sales. The ones you saw on that site could be intergrades but being marketed as "abberant MBK's" because intergrades generally don't sell as well.

Minkness

08-18-16, 02:21 PM

Albert Clark

08-18-16, 02:22 PM

Re: Yellow on MBK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Albert Clark View Post
That's why your breeding, it may call for the hatchlings to be bred back to each other or be bred back to the desired parent.
This isn't a morph. If the hatchlings were bred back to one another you'd come out with more intergrades.

There's no secret here. I honestly think you're confusing hybrids/intergrades with mutations. They don't work the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albert Clark View Post
How do you know that? What if Minks King is a aberrantly colored MBK? You don't know that unless you breed back for specificity. He may well be a morph but you won't know for sure unless you breed him.
If this is a morph it shouldn't be bred. It looks like ****.

The hatchlings after being bred back to each other would vary in coloration. Which Mink wanted a more black colored kingsnake. I am not confusing hybrids/ intergrades bc intergrades are what happens naturally in the wild and hybrids is what happens artificially in the terrarium. C'mon Aaron. I still believe it's a desert kingsnake but I can certainly be wrong. We breed animals in question( not you Mink) but in general. If you are breeding, people do it for various reasons and one main reason is for a desired coloration/ pattern.

Albert Clark

08-18-16, 02:26 PM

The kingsnakes Mink saw on the site could also be hybrids. Hybrids are raised to be sold also for increased coloration/ patterning and also for profit.

Quote:
Take names with a grain of salt. Lots of intergrades and even hybrids have been given names to increase sales. The ones you saw on that site could be intergrades but being marketed as "abberant MBK's" because intergrades generally don't sell as well.

Aaron_S

08-18-16, 02:42 PM

...The hatchlings after being bred back to each other would vary in coloration. Which Mink wanted a more black colored kingsnake. I am not confusing hybrids/ intergrades bc intergrades are what happens naturally in the wild and hybrids is what happens artificially in the terrarium. C'mon Aaron. I still believe it's a desert kingsnake but I can certainly be wrong. We breed animals in question( not you Mink) but in general. If you are breeding, people do it for various reasons and one main reason is for a desired coloration/ pattern.

I think you're being obtuse at this point.

The colouration of the babies could/would vary but no one would be any closer to determining what species this is. If Mink would like an all black snake then they can get an all black snake without the issues of breeding and spending years raising up the babies.

I never said you were confusing what a hybrid is with an intergrade. I said I think you're confusing hybrids/intergrades (read as BOTH) with a mutation and how a mutation is inherited with breeding.

Albert Clark

08-18-16, 02:54 PM

Okay. Thanks.

valkea

08-18-16, 03:18 PM

Luckily I'm not looking to buy and this one was free and has a cool personality. So it can look like **** all day and until it goves me a reason I'll probably keep it lol.

I like the yellow on the face and belly, but the shallow in me wishes it weren't on his body lol.

For what it's worth *I* think it looks cool! Not at all like **** :)

... I am sad it's not secretly a cobra though ha