different woma subspecies?

[PatrickT]

I wonder if some research was done ito that.

I have two woma pythons. A female and a male. What strikes me is that they scale structure appears different. Its hard to tell but the male looks almost like its scales are rough / keeled while the female appears like any other woma python.

http://fs5.directupload.net/images/160811/omuv95kg.jpg

[riddick07]

I don't think there is but they could be two different localities.

[franks]

Hopefully shauny can weigh in since he lives there. It is my understanding that the aussies are fairly conscientious about the woma localities. There are differences between woma localities.

[SerpentineDream]

I know there can be a significant difference in size depending upon locality, with womas from southern localities reaching lengths of up to 8 feet (as opposed to 4.5 to 6 feet), but not sure if there are other differences.

[PatrickT]

The size issue i know as well but as i said, his scales look keeled and those of the female not. Its really cool but also strange

[RAD House]

I wonder if there is some sexual dimorphism occurring?

[PatrickT]

I wonder if there is some sexual dimorphism occurring?

could also be an issue but is any snake species know where the genders are either smooth or rough scaled?

[Andy_G]

I'm guessing it would be locality and not sexual dimorphism. Bullsnakes, for example, also have a variance in how keeled their scales are as well, and it has to do with geographical range/locality.

[brandonh]

There is a similar topic here in PA with mountain earthsnakes some are weakly keeled and others are smooth not to be confused with the smooth earthsnake. There have been studies done that actually suggests the snake species is in the middle of evolving into a smooth snake as that would benefit this species much more as it spends much time under ground in rodent burrows and abandon ant tunnels

[PatrickT]

There is a similar topic here in PA with mountain earthsnakes some are weakly keeled and others are smooth not to be confused with the smooth earthsnake. There have been studies done that actually suggests the snake species is in the middle of evolving into a smooth snake as that would benefit this species much more as it spends much time under ground in rodent burrows and abandon ant tunnels

thats interesting. Maybe the woma python undergoes a similar process?

Australia was much more wet 40.000 year ago. The landscape changed dramatical during the last 40.000 years so may the species is in the process of splitting?

[brandonh]

It is very possible that they are in the process spitting. I don't think they are necessarily going through the same process as the earth snakes as here because woma's don't spend a lot if any time under ground. So if they are changing i think it would be something along the lines as into sub species. As you said the landscape has changed dramatically in the last 40,000 years when that happens the animals must adapt to that. We have ask what would be more beneficial to this species keels or no keels I don't know all that much about their habits maybe someone here can fill that in for us. Maybe this process is more like the earthsnake process then i think and thats what we are starting to see here.

[Derek Roddy]

The scalation differences are locality variance.

There is varying opinions that some of the locality forms in Western Australia to be a secondary subspecies but, just as the BHPs.... Nothing has been done to study/change this other than opinion.

Cheers
D

[Captain837]

The scalation differences are locality variance.

There is varying opinions that some of the locality forms in Western Australia to be a secondary subspecies but, just as the BHPs.... Nothing has been done to study/change this other than opinion.

Cheers
D

I would say if you want any definitive information regarding the differences between location specific womas or subspecies, you will need to look at those in Australia. The fact that it is illegal to export them made it impossible (from what I understand) for anyone outside of there to focus on local specific breeding.

On another note, what you are experiencing could be what is called in dog breeding a "throw back". Every once in a while in a litter of pure bred dogs you will get a trait to pop up that resembles one of the early breeds used to create the current breed you are working with. It could be progression in adaptation of the species or regression to something that was before.

[Derek Roddy]

I have looked in Australia..... Several times and have several friend there who do this stuff for a living as well as I have participated in studies myself.

Cheers
D

[Captain837]

I have looked in Australia..... Several times and have several friend there who do this stuff for a living as well as I have participated in studies myself.

Cheers
D

Derek, your reputation preceds yourself. I was in no way questioning your input on this subject. If it was recieved that way I apologize. I was just trying to guide the op in the direction of a source for additional reliable info on the subject.

[Derek Roddy]

None taken. I was just pointing out that there are studies done and researchers who have worked on this stuff for years with no findings of enough genetic differences to warrant subspecies classification.
There are enough regional differences though.... But based on how we classify currently, that's not enough to warrant full status

I do agree with what you said as genetic throw backs as none of the womas we have in Europe or US are of locale decent ( they were but have long since been mixed).
Being that several localities have been brought in over the years and mixed.... It's common to see scalation difference with in a single clutch.

D

[franks]

Hey derek, hope all is well in the snake room. In Australia do the localities show different color and/or size traits? Also, do you know of woma locals where their diet is highly reptile based like a blackhead's?

[Derek Roddy]

Hey y'all sorry was out of town for a couple weeks and haven't had much internet time.


In regards to size..... All depends on their native food sources and what's available.

Most people don't realize that rats are so dependent on humans that unless humans are around..... You won't see rats. Now take a look at Australia's population distribution and the Woma pythons distribution.
The area were Woma and humans interact will be the areas that the womas are the largest as they are eating a more varied diet which consist of rodents ( because of human habitation). Same for the BHPs.
Size range exist because of the access to food sources.

Cheers
D

[brandonh]

That's pretty interesting because the farther away from ppl you get the bigger snakes you find. To many ppl in states see a snake and they just have to kill it on site. If I am right isn't it illegal to kill any species of reptile in Australia? That would also help them get to a large size in around human population.

[SerpentineDream]

Hey y'all sorry was out of town for a couple weeks and haven't had much internet time.


In regards to size..... All depends on their native food sources and what's available.

Most people don't realize that rats are so dependent on humans that unless humans are around..... You won't see rats. Now take a look at Australia's population distribution and the Woma pythons distribution.
The area were Woma and humans interact will be the areas that the womas are the largest as they are eating a more varied diet which consist of rodents ( because of human habitation). Same for the BHPs.
Size range exist because of the access to food sources.

Cheers
D

Hmmmm, so my (perhaps misguided?) attempts to calm my hungry hungry juvenile woma by stuffing her with rats twice a week could result in an unusually large adult woma?

Oh my. The thought of Ophelia at 8 feet is... unsettling. ;)

[Captain837]

Hmmmm, so my (perhaps misguided?) attempts to calm my hungry hungry juvenile woma by stuffing her with rats twice a week could result in an unusually large adult woma?

Oh my. The thought of Ophelia at 8 feet is... unsettling. ;)
Our baby womas are the only snakes I have ever seen that will readily eat while completely in blue. They will taste first and ask questions later, repeatedly too. I have been bitten multiple times by one of our females who did not strike or act defensively, she simply and non chelauntly reached over while being held and bit/wrapped my finger. They truly are the Labrador retrievers of the snake world as far as appetite is concerned.
I would assume this crazy feeding drive has to do with their natural prey. They probably need to eat far more lizards to get the same calories provided in one rat.

[SerpentineDream]

Yes, Ophelia will wrap and try to swallow me when I take her out. Occasionally she strikes at the glass trying to grab me as I walk past. She is a black hole, always ravenous.

Silver lining: Any rodents that get rejected by my other snakes can be tossed to her. She never says no.

[Derek Roddy]

Oh my. The thought of Ophelia at 8 feet is... unsettling. ;)

I've seen 8 and 9 foot woma's in people's collections....yeah. They usually end up dead before their 6th to 8th year but, they're out there. Haha.

D

[SerpentineDream]

Should I cut back on feeding her? She's still a juvenile and is eating rat fuzzies twice a week. I was feeding her only once a week but she was psychotic. She's a little more manageable with 2 meals a week but I don't want to jeopardize her health.

[Captain837]

Everything I have read states 1 appropriate sized meal every 5-7 days. Due to their propensity toward over eating and the health issues associated with it I stay closer to the 7 day Mark. Once ours are up to med rats we will go 1 meal every 19 days.

[Captain837]

Yes, Ophelia will wrap and try to swallow me when I take her out. Occasionally she strikes at the glass trying to grab me as I walk past. She is a black hole, always ravenous.

Silver lining: Any rodents that get rejected by my other snakes can be tossed to her. She never says no.

So after the 3rd time Milo bit and wrapped my finger we decided to get a snake hook and start the hook training. Works like a charm. Slight tap to let her know it is there, let her look at it and pick her up with it. Once out of her cage she is chill although she is constantly rubbing her face on your hand/arm like she it trying to find something small enough to swallow.
This got me thinking. I wonder if my scent on the pinky rats (I feed with tongs but have not been wearing gloves while preparing them) is confusing her. I mean if some people can scent rats with other stuff to get finicky snakes to eat, I wonder if a little of my scent gets on the rats and this is what makes her associate me with food. Gonna start using gloves from start to finish and see if it helps.