Problem in our industry

[DLLNP]

I was going to post this as a reply to another thread but then realized I was typing away on a tangent that might make a decent discussion. The topic of this discussion is the amount of herps we see that are kept in terrible conditions due to poor husbandry, etc.

This is a problem that arches across the entire industry. I would be willing to bet that the percentage of herps in poor care is higher than most other pet industries (and there are a lot of terrible cat, dog, etc owners out there!)

There are people in the world, like all of us here that are incredibly passionate about reptiles. People like us are not looking for a "pet" as much as we are looking for a complex project that brings along the beauty of the natural world with it. I think we all get enjoyment out of replicating our animal's natural environment through perfect husbandry, and enjoy the challenge of doing so.

THEN... there are people who want pets... they are not interested in cracking a book to see what the natural history of their animal is or even looking at a basic care sheet sometimes. They want a new pet and that is it. They will feed it, water it and feel like they have done their job because they are not looking for that "complex project" that we all tackle everyday.

Reptiles have two characteristics that make them subject to a high percentage of poor care: 1) they general have more complicated husbandry than your average pet and 2) most have a long lifespan (even when kept in poor conditions). Just look at the classifieds in your local area... I am sure they are similar to mine: full of animals 2-5 years old (with lifespans well over 20+ yrs) that are no longer wanted. It happens all the time.

Is this a problem that can be fixed? Or will it always plague the reptile community? It is my opinion that breeders need to be responsible for the animals they sell by making sure they are headed to a good home.... I think most breeders actually do this all the time. Some definitely don't (the ones producing 1000's of animals per year don't have time to do that) and the local pet stores obviously don't do that either. Share you thoughts!

Dillon

[SWDK]

I think it's a problem that will not go away any time soon. The problem is it's easy to get reptiles and most common ones are cheap in pet stores. People don't seem to educate themselves on the purchase first and act on impulse a lot. The also don't see reptile as the "family pet" like a dog or cat.

[DLLNP]

Yes exactly... I guess another strike against many species is the mass amount of offspring they produce... I'm sure it is difficult for a breeder to ensure all 30 boa babies he produced go to a proper home for example.

I also think morphs play an unfortunate role in this whole thing. Don't get me wrong I love morphs as well as the puzzle that comes with playing with genetics, but it causes the over production of unwanted animals sometimes I think.

[macandchz]

i think a lot of it is because people think of reptiles as a novelty. "little johnny wants a snake," isn't that cute? then the salesperson at petco or wherever convinces mom or dad that there is little or no work dealing with a reptile. i've been at pet stores and actually took mom aside and explained some of the care that is needed. and where is little johnny? he's already lost interest in the snake of his dreams and is now tormenting the ferrets. sales people need to be more informative and parents need to research just what it takes to raise a reptile. a lot of adults aren't capable of raising one !

[Sublimeballs]

It all starts at the pet stores. The employees dont know anything about proper care. The amount of terrible advice I've heard at pet stores would astound most people. Ive had to convince a woman not to buy her young son an anaconda.....the pet store was glad to sell a female green to someone under 12.

[REM955]

I suppose it depends where incentive lies.
On one side, you have those more interested in profit. They make these outrageous sells to make a buck and that results in poor care and animals in shelters, like two sibling SD retics at one near me.
On the other in the minority, you have stores that care about the animal and its well being. I know one of these stores. Not only has their vet said good things about them, I saw them turn down a sale because the customer wanted to try a cheap alternative or something for a bearded dragon. I should do a post for them. Lot of cool animals they have as personal pets.

[Aaron_S]

I was going to post this as a reply to another thread but then realized I was typing away on a tangent that might make a decent discussion. The topic of this discussion is the amount of herps we see that are kept in terrible conditions due to poor husbandry, etc.

This is a problem that arches across the entire industry. I would be willing to bet that the percentage of herps in poor care is higher than most other pet industries (and there are a lot of terrible cat, dog, etc owners out there!)

There are people in the world, like all of us here that are incredibly passionate about reptiles. People like us are not looking for a "pet" as much as we are looking for a complex project that brings along the beauty of the natural world with it. I think we all get enjoyment out of replicating our animal's natural environment through perfect husbandry, and enjoy the challenge of doing so.

THEN... there are people who want pets... they are not interested in cracking a book to see what the natural history of their animal is or even looking at a basic care sheet sometimes. They want a new pet and that is it. They will feed it, water it and feel like they have done their job because they are not looking for that "complex project" that we all tackle everyday.

Reptiles have two characteristics that make them subject to a high percentage of poor care: 1) they general have more complicated husbandry than your average pet and 2) most have a long lifespan (even when kept in poor conditions). Just look at the classifieds in your local area... I am sure they are similar to mine: full of animals 2-5 years old (with lifespans well over 20+ yrs) that are no longer wanted. It happens all the time.

Is this a problem that can be fixed? Or will it always plague the reptile community? It is my opinion that breeders need to be responsible for the animals they sell by making sure they are headed to a good home.... I think most breeders actually do this all the time. Some definitely don't (the ones producing 1000's of animals per year don't have time to do that) and the local pet stores obviously don't do that either. Share you thoughts!

Dillon

The bold is tougher than you think it is.

I sell snakes to a good home and then something happens and they put the animal up for sale, move away to school 5 years later or their life changes. How can I predict that? I can't. No one can.

All those people with 2 - 5 year old reptiles started out as good homes MOST of the time. They meant well and then something happened. The sad part is people easily remove reptiles when something small in their life changes.

[franks]

There are people in the world, like all of us here that are incredibly passionate about reptiles. People like us are not looking for a "pet" as much as we are looking for a complex project that brings along the beauty of the natural world with it. I think we all get enjoyment out of replicating our animal's natural environment through perfect husbandry, and enjoy the challenge of doing so.
Dillon

Hey. Some good points. Sad but true. I actually think the problem is that the majority of keepers do not care or attempt to replicate their animal's natural environment. My opinion is not a popular one, I am sure, so let me start with the disclaimer that I am not blaming the breeders, but their followers. I think the problem is the rack system. The fact is that our hobby is driven by the breeders of snakes more than it is by the scientists that spend time in the jungles and islands studying them. I do not see this as the breeders fault. Matter of factly, they are the most experienced people in the world at keeping their specific breeds alivei n captivity. The problem is that their way of keeping translates down to the hobbyists and wanna be keepers and results in snakes being kept in sterilite boxes, not vivariums. Even the keepers that use fishtanks tend to keep their animals in small enclosures. I think alot is lost when you cannot actually watch your animal interact with its environment without running over his own tail. My 2 cents. I hope its coherent, I have a two year old and his paw patrol pups hanging off of me.

[franks]

Also, Dillon, couldn't agree more regarding the 2-5 year old snakes in this hobby.

[trailblazer295]

There will be pet abuse forever, there is child abuse still. That said animals that can't vocalize like reptiles, fish and other tank living animals suffer the worst of it. A dog can live being given food and water, would it be healthy not being walked enough no, can it live without being socialized yes but won't be happy but will still look the same. Basically the same with cats. You can feed crap food and ignore them but they'll live.

Most tank animals fish, reptiles etc require more then just food and water. Filtration, heating, UVA/UVB etc. Like you mentioned most people don't do any research on there own and most stores don't do anything to screen customers. If you have the cash then they will sell it. Worse then that is employees that give the wrong information.

Sadly this won't ever go away, cheaper species will always suffer from poor care. More expensive will be less abused because of the cost.

[pet_snake_78]

I only see very common animals for adoption really. There are way too many ball pythons, boas, and corn snakes. For this reason, I do not produce any of those species (save the dwarf boas). However, I see 3-4 times more dogs and cats up for adoption than reptiles, so at least in my area, reptiles are still a minority of the unwanted animals. I don't know of any cure. In my part, I produce animals that are in more demand and since people can always sell them, I doubt you'd likely see many end up being given away.

If someone is really passionate, you can give reptile talks at schools, libraries, nature centers, get out there where you can and educate people on proper care. No one has ever changed anything on the Internet though, real change happens out in the public so I would encourage as many as willing to get out there and try.

[bigsnakegirl785]

The bold is tougher than you think it is.

I sell snakes to a good home and then something happens and they put the animal up for sale, move away to school 5 years later or their life changes. How can I predict that? I can't. No one can.

All those people with 2 - 5 year old reptiles started out as good homes MOST of the time. They meant well and then something happened. The sad part is people easily remove reptiles when something small in their life changes.

Yup. Beyond asking them questions and hoping they're being honest, and trying to encourage them to return their animals to us if anything changes, there's not much we can do.

I personally enjoy my snakes more than any other pet I've ever had. I'd easily give up a cat or a dog before I'd give up one of my snakes.

Poor husbandry and lack of research is a major falling point for any pet owner, I've had people basically have hernias on me when I told them they should be doing a couple months' of research and preferably test-running a set up before getting a snake (if it's their first snake at least). Apparently they thought a week's worth of research was all they needed. Unfortunately, some snakes require more intricate care, and just because a snake is surviving in the set up you put together in 30 minutes during a shopping spree at PetSmart doesn't mean you'll keep that snake going in the long run, and just listening to pet shop advice or reading care sheets doesn't mean you'll even hit everything in a basic set up. Care sheets don't go in depth, they don't tell you HOW to do anything, just what you should be aiming for, and I'd never personally trust a pet shop's advice without prior knowledge or research later.

People are lazy, self-centered, and proud. They don't want to do the work required to gain the knowledge needed to care for their pets, and when their poor husbandry is called into question they get defensive and ignore more knowledgeable keepers.

That said, I think it's a problem to say that you need to replicate their natural environment for them to be healthy. You can keep a snake healthy and content in a non-natural set up so long as it has enough space and a proper environment. A reptile couldn't care less if the hide they're in is cardboard or a sculpted foam insert designed to look like a rock, or an actual rock. They don't care if the space provided is enclosed by wood or plastic, seriously, there is no difference at all between a tub of the proper size and a viv of the proper size. Keeping snakes in racks isn't a problem of not providing a naturalistic enclosure, but of those keepers putting economy and space ahead of the needs of the snake.

[DLLNP]

When I said replicating "natural environments through perfect husbandry" I probably should have been more clear. By "perfect husbandry" I mean the way we generally use it here i.e. humidity, temperatures, feeding schedule etc. I don't necessarily mean a bio-active viv... I have other animals in bio-active setups and I love them but I am not interested in having a snake in a bio-active viv.. dealing with their waste production is a whole other ball game compared to small lizards!

But having said that, I totally agree with frank. Being able to watch your animals interact with their environment (natural or artificial) is one of the best things about owning these animals in my opinion. I can watch my snakes move around their enclosures for hours at night. I read this quote from a large reptile keeper sometime last year and for the life of me can't remember it but it was something like:

"Create an environment in your animal's enclosure that closely replicates their natural habitat and conditions and they will reward you with complex and beautiful natural behaviour..." or something along those lines! Of course I believe this can be achieved through an artificial environment (not bio-active) .

[Andy_G]

In regards to the OP, all we can really do is sell with education and support. What someone does after the purchase is kind of out of our hands even though we would want it to be different.


Racking systems were originally thought up not only to save space, but also to help wild caught animals acclimate to captivity and feed regularly by reducing as much stress as possible (small and secure quarters, quickly stabilised conditions, easy to clean interior to reduce interaction, no bright lights). If snakes or specifically "enjoyed" being observed, I would whole-heartedly agree with replicating their natural environment in all instances, but they don't and it leaves them feeling vulnerable. Lots of species or individuals do well in larger naturalistic enclosures and aren't phased about being observed...and some even demand larger spaces with their activity levels or size and are sometimes unfairly denied it (but that's not unique to reptiles and amphibians), but others do not, and I believe it is usually US that would truly be benefiting from these large decorative enclosures (not necessarily a bad thing), not our captives, and to think otherwise is rather anthropomorphic to me. This "trickle down" effect from experienced hobbysits is NOT a bad thing in my opinion.

I love naturalistic enclosures...I even have a couple of bio-active ones myself and I do love watching the geckos present in them, and larger snakes that aren't phased by being on display and are very active are kept in sizeable vivs...but would I recommend for that to be done for all species? No.

[Aaron_S]

Andy_G is the problem in the industry.

That is all.

[Andy_G]

Andy_G is the problem in the industry.

That is all.

Why you dirty...

[dave himself]

Andy_G is the problem in the industry.

That is all.

Why you dirty...

Pistols at dawn :D

[Aaron_S]

Why you dirty...

I like to entertain myself.

Pistols at dawn :D

Let's do a classic musket fight instead! 20 paces.

[trailblazer295]

Pistols at dawn :D

Wait you skipped the step where Aaron gets slapped with a glove "you insulted my honor. I challenge you to a duel"

[dave himself]

.



Let's do a classic musket fight instead! 20 paces.[/QUOTE]

With blindfolds :D

Wait you skipped the step where Aaron gets slapped with a glove "you insulted my honor. I challenge you to a duel"

I demand satisfaction :D this hilarious

[trailblazer295]

.



Let's do a classic musket fight instead! 20 paces.

With blindfolds :D



I demand satisfaction :D this hilarious[/QUOTE]

LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC0b886pH_c

[bigsnakegirl785]

When I said replicating "natural environments through perfect husbandry" I probably should have been more clear. By "perfect husbandry" I mean the way we generally use it here i.e. humidity, temperatures, feeding schedule etc. I don't necessarily mean a bio-active viv... I have other animals in bio-active setups and I love them but I am not interested in having a snake in a bio-active viv.. dealing with their waste production is a whole other ball game compared to small lizards!

But having said that, I totally agree with frank. Being able to watch your animals interact with their environment (natural or artificial) is one of the best things about owning these animals in my opinion. I can watch my snakes move around their enclosures for hours at night. I read this quote from a large reptile keeper sometime last year and for the life of me can't remember it but it was something like:

"Create an environment in your animal's enclosure that closely replicates their natural habitat and conditions and they will reward you with complex and beautiful natural behaviour..." or something along those lines! Of course I believe this can be achieved through an artificial environment (not bio-active) .

Yeah that totally makes sense, in which case I think it would be more appropriate to say to provide them an ideal environment. A naturalistic environment isn't necessarily beneficial or preferred, and by saying that people will naturally associate it with well, natural stuff (like I did). haha We should be taking the best parts of nature and straining them from the rest.

In regards to the OP, all we can really do is sell with education and support. What someone does after the purchase is kind of out of our hands even though we would want it to be different.


Racking systems were originally thought up not only to save space, but also to help wild caught animals acclimate to captivity and feed regularly by reducing as much stress as possible (small and secure quarters, quickly stabilised conditions, easy to clean interior to reduce interaction, no bright lights). If snakes or specifically "enjoyed" being observed, I would whole-heartedly agree with replicating their natural environment in all instances, but they don't and it leaves them feeling vulnerable. Lots of species or individuals do well in larger naturalistic enclosures and aren't phased about being observed...and some even demand larger spaces with their activity levels or size and are sometimes unfairly denied it (but that's not unique to reptiles and amphibians), but others do not, and I believe it is usually US that would truly be benefiting from these large decorative enclosures (not necessarily a bad thing), not our captives, and to think otherwise is rather anthropomorphic to me. This "trickle down" effect from experienced hobbysits is NOT a bad thing in my opinion.

I love naturalistic enclosures...I even have a couple of bio-active ones myself and I do love watching the geckos present in them, and larger snakes that aren't phased by being on display and are very active are kept in sizeable vivs...but would I recommend for that to be done for all species? No.

As long as the species has a species-appropriate set up, there's nothing wrong with it. I haven't found a snake myself that I believe would benefit from a rack set up, but my eastern garter Demigod is the closest to wild caught I have experience with, and he's captive born, does well in his little tank set up, not shy at all.

I think there's a certain minimum standard that should be kept, but that doesn't mean I think all snakes should be kept in big intricate spaces, but they should at least be allowed enough space to thermoregulate and exercise. I don't really like seeing/hearing about adult retics being kept in 4'x2's and 6'x2's, and imo I feel the average rack system ball pythons are kept in are rather cramped in general. Of course, there may be some individuals that do benefit from being in a rack, but I don't think as a species they deserve the "pet rock" stereotype they've earned. They can be quite active at night and make use of any space you'll offer, if offered in the correct way. They get the most exercise on their own time than they get in the few hours a week they'd get from handling.

[Jack4193]

I appreciate it that someone has started discussing this. I am 14 and have 2 corns and 1 BP. I have already made a decision that i am never going to give up these snakes, i got them as babies and have raised the corns for 3 years and the BP for half a year and intend to have them their entire life, 20 years or more, I don't care. I am afraid that if i give them up someone, as the original starter of this discussion put it, someone who just wants a pet, not the responsibility, and without the responsibility there is no fun in keeping reptiles, the challenge of keeping them happy if what is enjoyable. Now i by no means think im a perfect keeper, i fall behind on cleaning sometimes and im not always patient but they still mean a lot to me, they are the only animals i have kept in my life, i don't have a dog, a cat, a fish, i have one of the most unusual pets for a teenager and i enjoy not having the same as everybody else, that doesn't mean you can get a cool animal like this and just not care for it properly, you have to do research and understand the responsibility. I have nothing for cruel herp keepers but loathing, they are selfish, irresponsible and oblivious to how they are hurting our hobby. The government will ban the keeping of these extraordinary exotic animals because they are being harmed by people who don't care. I hope we can preserve the ability to keep these animals.

[pet_snake_78]

The government isn't going to ban herps because of bad keepers. The government is and will ban most herps because they are being successfully lobbied by animal rights activists who are against the keeping of all animals regardless of conditions and believe that humans and animals must have no contact. They also are doing their best to shut down zoos, for example. Their agenda is still a little too radical for the average joe so what they do is setup psuedo environmental organizations. Their pamphlets tell you the money is going to save wildlife, homeless animals, etc. Then they take that money and lobby or sue the government to get insane laws passed that do nothing to help animals but achieve their goals of making it more difficult or impossible to keep certain species in captivity. Little by little the list you're allowed to keep or cross state lines with is dwindling. None of these laws do anything to protect the animals. We already know why animals become rare and that's primarily habitat destruction.

Right now we are trying to reconstruct the passenger pigeon through modifying related birds. Wouldn't it be a heck of a lot easier if someone actually had a few hundred of the *actual* birds in captivity. Of course, you can't just take a 13th generation captive animal and throw it out in the wild, but here is a living example of where true conservationists could speed their project up by decades if someone had just kept a few flocks going? In many parts of the world palm plantations are going to cause species we have in captivity to go extinct, no if ands or butts about it, it will happen. It would be a shame if no one could ever study a living species again simply because the government stopped private citizens from continuing to keep and breed those that made it here. Bare in midn the few that made it here were on deaths doorstep and generally found during the very act of new roads and clearings for said palm plantations.

The real problem with the reptile industry is apathy and a lack of organization. The craigslist type keepers will always be there. They are already breaking existing laws by keeping animals in neglectful conditions and I do not have sympathy for them if they get caught and their animals taken away but it's not really a reptile problem, it's an all animals kept by people who they themselves do not mind living in filth problem. In the US, usark is doing an amazing job but it won't be enough, at best it will slow down bans slightly.

[pet_snake_78]

Jeez I just read what I wrote and it sounded a little dark lol I don't want to be that guy so I wanted to add a positive note here. There are many many up and coming keepers in Asia. I believe Asia will eventually become the dominant continent for reptile keeping. The guys coming up there that I've spoken with are having success with new forms and species of Asian snakes that we do not have in the US. They are also bringing in species from the world over which are rare here in the US and hopefully they will have success with them. How some of those animals got there is a bit curious however.

[sattva]

Man has a tendency to drive to extinction what he doesn't want or need... Take the cow for instance... If man didn't use it for it's hide and food, it would probably be on the endangered species list...You know like we did to the poor buffalo... I think most of the snakes, owned by the general population today, would not be here if it weren't for breeders and people like you and me... It's all about desire, supply and demand! You know, Ye olde cash flow...

[pet_snake_78]

Ya it sort of ties in with hunting. In MO (where most of my experience is) hunting finances huge amounts of land. People also buy acres and just leave them set aside for hunting. An insurance salesman bought a really good piece of hunting land. Now, he's not stupid and he doesn't hunt, but he knows access to that land makes him very popular with those who he can give it to.They keep buying insurance from him! Now, it's true he doesn't give a rats rear end about reptiles but unknown to him he has preserved hundreds of snakes living under rocks and in rocky crevices on that land... actually they'd probably be terrified if they knew how many venomous snakes were living there lol MO also gives landowners monies if they allow public hunting on their land. I've never used the program myself as my family only has about 80 acres, but I know it exists. I've also convinced my family not to kill reptiles on the land. Now they send me pictures of live snakes rather than posting pics of dead snakes for me to identify. Finally, in a few places, a sustainable harvest of reptiles has been going on for many years. The trick is to educate people that they need to collect at or above the carrying capacity of the land. For the pet trade, the need to keep them alive somewhat acts as a natural buffer, for the food trade I think it's a legitimate concern. Fortunately, decades of game management experience can help guide that conversation.