Keeping garter snakes together?

[Cymmie]

Is it possible to keep two garter snakes together? If not that's fine with me, just have heard it is. I have a 110 gallon tank.

[toddnbecka]

Should be fine, just make sure to feed them separately so one doesn't hog the food.

[bigsnakegirl785]

I wouldn't. One of our senior members (who doesn't appear active anymore), infernalis, had some garters cannibalize after one of the group members regurged. I don't believe the species was a species reported to be cannibalistic, but these guys can be seriously food-oriented. Even if you feed them separately, you risk cannibalization. The thread is on this website, I'd have to dig it up to get additional information, all I remember was a garter was eaten by its cage mates after a regurge.

As with any cohabitation, you risk the spread of disease and multiply your vet bills by how many are kept together. It's really not worth the risk imo.

[Snake_eyes_88]

Garters are one of the few species that cohabit naturally within the wild due to the mass of population within their ranges....

I dont cohabit any species myself but if I was going to it would be garters. If you choose to do it, just feed seperately and always keep an eye out for any fights or dominant behaviour like laying on top of each other.

[Andy_G]

Garters are one of the few species that cohabit naturally within the wild due to the mass of population within their ranges....


Yup! 100% agree. Gotta know how to do it but sometimes things will still happen.

[RAD House]

It absolutely possible and some even think it helps nervous males. Following a few rules will help you be successful. There are some species that are known to cannibalistic, mainly the wandering garter(T. elegans). Keep your males and females separated unless you are breeding. The animals should be around the same size, you do not want to put a baby with an adult. I agree feeding separately is best. Finally make sure you have enough room for both snakes. Two normal sized males can comfortably be kept in a 20 gallon, where as two females would need about twice the size. Thamnophis.com is a great resource. It is not as active as ssnakes but the members there have a ton of experience with garters.

[Albert Clark]

Hatchling garters are usually kept together in the captive world mainly bc there is a ease in feeding in groups as babies. Their feedings will still need to be monitored. As they put on size it should be a point to separate them into their own spaces. Adults should always be separated for the long term unless breeding or brumating. Garters are not social and only come together during brumation and right after brumation, to breed. Garters also have high metabolisms thus require meticulous daily spot cleaning and water bowl cleaning and disinfecting to stay healthy. It's best not to cohabitate garters.

[RAD House]

Albert I am wondering where you got this information? Have you ever cohabed garters yourself? We both know people that cohabitate whom have much more experience than our selves. I am not sure if there are garters where you live, but here they can be found in large groups through out the year. I guess my question is why you think garters can not be cohabitated? Honestly curious, so let's keep this civil.

[RAD House]

Also here a post from Infernalis himself about gaters. http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/thamnophis/85618-some-myths-about-thamnophis-dispelled.html

[Andy_G]

Albert I am wondering where you got this information? Have you ever cohabed garters yourself? We both know people that cohabitate whom have much more experience than our selves. I am not sure if there are garters where you live, but here they can be found in large groups through out the year. I guess my question is why you think garters can not be cohabitated? Honestly curious, so let's keep this civil.

I once again agree with this. The few I know who work with them up here in Canada prefer to cohab and actually consider them to be rather social in comparison to most other reptiles.

[Minkness]

That's pretty awesome! I wonder if I could keep different types together....I know I will one day have a neon red sidded.

Oooo...just imagine a nice 40 breeder, planted, with a quarter of it being a filtered 'pond' for fishies!

Is it possible to over feed these guys? Hmmmm....

[bigsnakegirl785]

Also here a post from Infernalis himself about gaters. http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/thamnophis/85618-some-myths-about-thamnophis-dispelled.html

The last I heard, infernalis did not encourage cohabitation, because of the situation I mentioned above. I have never found more than one garter in the same spot, and what I read online says what Albert says. They congregate during breeding and brumation, and are solitary the rest of the year.

See post #69 in that thread. There is still a lot of risk in cohabitation, you still risk fights, illnesses, and cannibalism. My question is, why would you risk this with your animals?

[RAD House]

Because I have talked with experienced keepers that have no such troubles. I have seen first hand how it makes a very nervous male infernalis feel much more calm and comfortable. I have never had a single case of aggression with my two, due to the very simple rules I laid out before. Have you personally experienced any aggression between cohabitated garter snakes? Illness comes from sanitary practices not cohabitation. If I have two healthy snakes living together where exactly do you think they would get sick from? I will give you a hint, it is not each other. As you know you must always practice quarantine. There is a lake with in walking distance of my house, in urban Denver where multiple garter snakes can be found in close proximity. Colorado is not known for large populations of snakes so I doubt this is out of the norm. Where are you doing this reading? Until you find any post where Wayne explicitly says such, maybe you shouldn't represent his opinions. In your example he says he still cohabitates.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Because I have talked with experienced keepers that have no such troubles. I have seen first hand how it makes a very nervous male infernalis feel much more calm and comfortable. I have never had a single case of aggression with my two, due to the very simple rules I laid out before. Have you personally experienced any aggression between cohabitated garter snakes? Illness comes from sanitary practices not cohabitation. If I have two healthy snakes living together where exactly do you think they would get sick from? I will give you a hint, it is not each other. As you know you must always practice quarantine. There is a lake with in walking distance of my house, in urban Denver where multiple garter snakes can be found in close proximity. Colorado is not known for large populations of snakes so I doubt this is out of the norm. Where are you doing this reading? Until you find any post where Wayne explicitly says such, maybe you shouldn't represent his opinions. In your example he says he still cohabitates.

Yes, I have actually. Back when I was still considering cohabbing Draco and Demigod together, I attempted to expose them to each other. Draco ended up striking at me multiple times (he's never done so any other time before), and becoming frantic. Demigod was fine. The second time I introduced them, it was Demigod who freaked out and Draco hid. The third time I introduced them on neutral ground and they were still wary. As long as they're in my hand, they're ok, but put them down and they get defensive.

In my example, Wayne said he was shying away from cohabitation and only cohabbed two single individuals, separating all his others. He later made an entire thread (iirc, could have been another thread derailed or something) and recommended several times outright against cohabitation, period.

Personally, the risk isn't worth it imo. I would prefer finding another way than cohabitation to calm a finicky baby. At most, I would only house a finicky baby with another garter until it was eating regularly, but even then I really would rather not.

Some illness don't pop up right away. If something goes wrong, how do you know which one is ill? Illness can pop up even with good sanitation. Say the snakes fought and the wound became infected, one of them regurged, or the power went out in the winter. Of the last one, you could argue that maybe all of them are just going to inherently become sick, I suppose, but some are hardier than others.

[Snake_eyes_88]

My female Infernalis is pure evil.... Don't think ANYTHING will calm her down lol..

[Andy_G]

I can't contribute any more to this conversation due to my lack of personal experience with the species (had them and bred them when very young, but not since) but I want to say that I like where this went! Lots of facts and opinions to consider for the OP.

[RAD House]

My female Infernalis is pure evil.... Don't think ANYTHING will calm her down lol..

Yeah they certainly have a reputation. They are pretty snakes but can be real poop heads. Although cohabiting females is frequently done, I have heard it has less dramatic effects on the snakes attitude. My guy while calm and collected in his cage is a spaz if I try to hold him.

[Albert Clark]

Albert I am wondering where you got this information? Have you ever cohabed garters yourself? We both know people that cohabitate whom have much more experience than our selves. I am not sure if there are garters where you live, but here they can be found in large groups through out the year. I guess my question is why you think garters can not be cohabitated? Honestly curious, so let's keep this civil.

Well, actually most of my information on garter snakes comes from "The Garter Snakes ecology and evolution" by Rossman, Ford, and Seigel. As well, my 6 years experience in breeding garter snakes and kingsnakes. No, I only cohab during brumation and breeding. Garter snakes can be found in large groups during times of brumation and breeding. If you are seeing them in areas where you live it's probably due to their foraging behaviors and the abundance of adequate prey items. Garter snakes are distributed throughout the continental U.S. Including Canada and Mexico! So yes, there are native garter snakes here in New York. Oh, they can be cohabbed but that is not the safest or recommended way to house them. If that's what you want to do then you have my best wishes. Garters are known to be a intelligent species but social not so much. They stress easily, have very high metabolisms and need their own space. What makes you feel I would be uncivil? Really?

[RAD House]

Yes, I have actually. Back when I was still considering cohabbing Draco and Demigod together, I attempted to expose them to each other. Draco ended up striking at me multiple times (he's never done so any other time before), and becoming frantic. Demigod was fine. The second time I introduced them, it was Demigod who freaked out and Draco hid. The third time I introduced them on neutral ground and they were still wary. As long as they're in my hand, they're ok, but put them down and they get defensive.

In my example, Wayne said he was shying away from cohabitation and only cohabbed two single individuals, separating all his others. He later made an entire thread (iirc, could have been another thread derailed or something) and recommended several times outright against cohabitation, period.

Personally, the risk isn't worth it imo. I would prefer finding another way than cohabitation to calm a finicky baby. At most, I would only house a finicky baby with another garter until it was eating regularly, but even then I really would rather not.

Some illness don't pop up right away. If something goes wrong, how do you know which one is ill? Illness can pop up even with good sanitation. Say the snakes fought and the wound became infected, one of them regurged, or the power went out in the winter. Of the last one, you could argue that maybe all of them are just going to inherently become sick, I suppose, but some are hardier than others.

Defensive and aggressive are very different reactions, especially in the snake world. At the end of day most of the experienced keepers I have spoken to do cohab for the lifetime of the snakes. They also seem to think that garters, especially males, do better in groups. Transmissible disease must be transmitted, it does not just pop up. With proper sanitation and buying captive bred animals, your risk of infection should be zero. People like to make excuses, but if a healthy snake picks up a communicable disease it is one hundred percent the fault of the keeper. As with any snake showing signs of sickness they should be placed back into quarantine. If you want to keep them separate, that is your opinion and I respect that.

[RAD House]

That's pretty awesome! I wonder if I could keep different types together....I know I will one day have a neon red sidded.

Oooo...just imagine a nice 40 breeder, planted, with a quarter of it being a filtered 'pond' for fishies!

Is it possible to over feed these guys? Hmmmm....

I keep my California red sided garter with a melanistic eastern in a planted 20 gallon and they do great. They are so much more active and curious in the planted then they were in a normal sterile snake enclosure. They can definitely be over fed, and there are some feeding issues you should be aware of. Mainly thiamine deficiency due to feeding certain types of fish.

[Minkness]

Thanks Meso. I was thinking of doing a full planted with a bind for rosies/minows, crickets, earth worms for the plants, ect. Maybe offer rodents sometimes.

This is all sooooo far down the line though lol. I can't get any more for a while. Space and finances are limiting my hobby at the moment.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Defensive and aggressive are very different reactions, especially in the snake world. At the end of day most of the experienced keepers I have spoken to do cohab for the lifetime of the snakes. They also seem to think that garters, especially males, do better in groups. Transmissible disease must be transmitted, it does not just pop up. With proper sanitation and buying captive bred animals, your risk of infection should be zero. People like to make excuses, but if a healthy snake picks up a communicable disease it is one hundred percent the fault of the keeper. As with any snake showing signs of sickness they should be placed back into quarantine. If you want to keep them separate, that is your opinion and I respect that.

Yes, that's true for transmissible diseases, but not true of all illnesses. You can't tell which snake regurged unless you actually saw it happen. You wouldn't be able to tell which snake had a bad poop if you didn't see the snake poop. Etc.

It's not possible to have husbandry 100% on point 100% of the time. If something goes wrong, you have no way of knowing which snakes were affected and which aren't. Regardless, all of them would have to be separated for monitoring, but if you're housing something like 10 garters together, it helps to at least have an idea of who is showing signs of illness and who isn't, even if it isn't communicable.

Power goes out, water dishes tip over, fights break out, all kinds of things can happen that would happen no matter how sanitary you may happen to be.

It's your choice to house them together, but this thread is for someone who at least appears to be new to snakes, and cohabitation at the very least isn't something a newbie should be doing, and imo requires some experience with the species and being able to tell indicators of stress, knowing how much space to offer, maintaining a proper thermal gradient, and willingness to provide multiple points of resources (various places of differing humidity and temps so that the snakes don't have to compete for resources).