Have Experience? (another rant)

[BWSmith]

OK, time to address another one of my pet peaves. why? cause I can;) Ya'll can aggree, disagree, ignore it, whatever, but this drives me nuts!

Issue: People with no experience whatsoever giving advice!!!

For years i have seen this. I remember on the KS venomous forum when some 15 year old kid posted a care sheet on Black mambas and he had never even SEEN ONE! HE had never had a venomous. He had no experience. He regurged what he read somewhere! We see it constantly. Some kid (I use the term loosley, no offense to younger members) who has only had 2 corn snakes and a ball python giving breeding tips on Retics. Come on people. You do not have to reply to posts just because they are there. If you dont have experience and dont know the answer, that is fine. If you dont have personal experience, but read a great deal about them, that is fine. Just say it as "I have read that this is how you do it" or "In the book "Anyherpbook" it says to do it this way". Dont try to pass off someone elses experience or literature as your own. Don't regurgitate what you heard some guy say in a pet shop while you were buying feeders. On every one of these forum sites, there is a tremendous amount highly experienced people. There is no need for inexperienced and/or uneducated keepers to offer partial quotes or misinformation. Now I am not saying, dont post. But if you really don't know what you are talking about, the qualify your statements so that the person needing advice KNOWS that you are not an expert.

Example: Someone makes a post asking about caring for Vine Snakes. For the sake of argument, you have never had one or even really worked with them. Don't post a long paragraph about keeping them at a certain humdity level, cage decorations, temp variations and feeding habits. If you have some knowledge share! But at least qualify it. Such as "these guys come from a fairly humid environment so a higher humidity level maybe benificial" or "In Mr. Soandso's article, he suggested these temps" or even "I have heard several meople comment they are difficult to get feeding on rodents". These are all fine. Youa re not pretending to be an expert.

Another issue: NOT EVERYTHING ON THE INTERNET IS RIGHT!

Jeez this one drives me bonkers! "I know what I am doing, I read it on the internet". ANYONE can make a web page now! There are no qualifications to put up a care sheet. You have to remember that when yo uread a site, these are opinions usually. And opinions are like tater-holes! Right now I could put up a care sheet for Bearded Dragons and say that you should hold them under water until they stop kicking in order to help them shed. I guaruntee that within a couple weeks, i would get angry emails about how I killed thier lizard (or they would go by another one and try it again). "But this came from a breeder" Who cares? i have had herps get loose and breed! No offense to anyone, but very few "breeders" impress me. That by no means says that they do not know what they are doing or that they dont have great info to present, but every person with a pair of ANYTHING is calling themselves breeders now. So I take that term with a grain of salt. The internet is the single best resource int he world for information. I just try to read everything I can find and that tends to weed out some of the idiots. Forum sites are probably the best resource because it brings experts to you. But again, when people with no experience post hear-say or assumptions, it makes it difficult to navigate through to find good information.

If you know something, post it. If you don't, that is fine. You notice I am rarely on the Colubrid forums. I have only kept a little over 100 colubrids, so I don't consider myself an expert on them and only comment on threads that I have relevant information or to ask a question or to make an observation. Many seasoned herpers have little tolerance for newbies getting too big for their britches and trying to pass off someone elses experience as their own. We all started out as newbies, noone has to prove themselves by hundreds of posts about subjects you don't know. Many of us worked through this hobby for years to gain the knowledge and reputation we carry. But we all started in the same place. There is no shame in not knowing an answer. live, learn and grow.

[tHeGiNo]

Hey I totally agree with you man, the point you forgot to mention was that misinformation could lead to the possible death or injury of an animal, and that would be really unfortunate. One thing I thought was a little unfair was the use of the term kids. This is because, hey, we can admit it, some "kids" are smarter then those older then them, just thought it was something to be pointed out.

[ReptiZone]

chears I'l drink to that :cool:

[tHeGiNo]

Not to mention that adults occasionally give false information as well...

[BWSmith]

You are absolutely correct. People of all ages give misinformation and are guilty of "talking above their experience". That is why i also used the term newbie. In my mond, i have met people in their 50's that i still consider "kids". By the same token, I trained a 15 year old "Kid" venomous handling and husbandry. Why? Because he is one of the smartest herpers I have met. Only 15 and he is a sophmore in college studying herpetology and doing a great deal of field work. As far as biolog and natural history, this kid was amazing. But he did not pretend to know venomous handling because he read an internet article. That made me respect him more.

[Dom]

As i have previously stated in a n other thread .. IMO, in order to find a response to your question, u must know the answer bofore hand .. lol


I have learned to know who offeres good info and who offers irrelevent or wrong information on the site..

[BoidKeeper]

That's why when ever I answer a post if I can I include quotes and a bibliography with foot notes. If I did not get it from a text then I try to make it clear that I'm speaking from my experince and telling things that have worked for me.
Good post,
Trevor

[BWSmith]

But newbies to the hobby or the site may have difficulty differentiating. After all, on the internet, we are all faceless, ageless, and genderless. On the internet you can be whoever or whatever you want. I could be a 6 year old in Alaska who has never seen a herp or i could be a 65 year old PHD having discovered 30 new species of herps and doing field research in Tanzania. You never know. But often their are clues to give it away. Like the people themselves. Often they will say that they have only worked with 2 certain species and then immediately proceed to offer breeding tips for a totally unrelated species.

As i have previously stated in a n other thread .. IMO, in order to find a response to your question, u must know the answer bofore hand
Well Put.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Very good points. One thought I've had is that just because some one has been keeping herps for say, 12 years, that doesn't mean that they know more than another person who has only been keeping herps for 3 years. In some people's cases, they could keep herps for 100 years and still not learn a thing. On the flip side of that is the keeper who only has a few years under his/her belt but can and will take in information quicker and have a few original thoughts and observations.

Interesting thread. Just though I'd point out that "experience" doesn't go hand in hand with knowledge in some people's cases. :)

Peace.

[BoidKeeper]

Good points Cranwill. I've known keepers who have had more animals die then I'll ever own.:(
Trevor

[eyespy]

Well stated by everyone. A great example of experience NOT being equal to knowledge is that idiot who treated mites on a skink with rubbing alcohol.

Plus I find that a certain percentage of people tend to exaggerate the level of experience they actually have. Take ALL advice with a grain of salt unless you read it in several different places or have a personal relationship with the giver and you've come to realize they know what they are talking about.

[HeatherRose]

I agree...good post!

I try my best to never sound like I know more than I do, and to make a note of a statement if it's 'just my opinion'....and I like to be sure I'm getting that back! :D

Heather

[paul_le_snake]

totally agree with the bit about the internet. any **** can say that they have only used sand to keep rainbow boas on, but they fail to mention thathteyve only had it for 1 week. its so annoying when ppl say they dont need a book coz they got the internet. everyone believe what they read on the internet???? i know i dont
cheers
paul

[BILLP]

Great post and you make alot of great points. I really agree with the parts about the internet. I have kept alot of different snakes and work at a zoo with alot of larger snake but I can still make a website on venomus snake even though I have never owned one and have very little experience in hadleing one. People have to remember that the internet is mostly people opinions. that why you should check out several sources on the care of a certian source. If 15 people tell you to keep a snake a certian way then there is a good chance that is probably good advise.

[Alicewave]

I absolutely agree with you BW. That's why most of the advice I give people starts with the phrase "In my experience with my herps" or something like that. And if I cite something I saw on the internet i usually say "I read somewhere or saw somewhere, not sure if it's true but...." to leave it open if anyone else might know more about it. It's really important especially for newbies to understand that most people's advice is based on a collection of their own experience, gathering info in books and on the net etc BUT that each herper needs to do his own such research. Take each persons advice for what it is, one person's advice or one websites advice and nothing more. It's the collection of information that will only get bigger and more complicated as time passes that is most important. The more you read and the more questions you ask (then the more questions you will have and then even more you will ask ;) ) you will be better able to judge when something will work for you or not.

[Linds]

Excellent thread with many great points. Unfortunately this will always be the way of the internet, and why it is very important that people do their own research, and when receiving advice, weigh it out for ones self to see if it makes sense (this is where that most important common sense and research comes in to play), not just take it as the truth, or the best way just because someone said so. It would be nice if everyone worded things as accurately as they should, but often is not the case :( So it's up to ones own guard.

[Katt]

Well, I always try to give advice when I can. I see a lot of people floundering with questions that no one has an answer to, and I think it's better to hear some sort of advice than nothing at all. I don't go off about something I don't know because that's well stupid, but I won't shut my trap just because I don't have 10yrs of experience.Glad to say no one has faulted me on something I've said though.

I'd love to make a webpage on burms, because I love them so, but I haven't kept one long enough to know everything, but I have done some research and chatted to other keepers (which is the best way to learn) . Vanan and I have typed up a little sheet on large snakes (since we have a few) for the heck of it and try to help other newbies, even if we are a bit of newbies ourselves, not to make ourselves like experts, but because we like helping people and I really see no wrong with that.

However, I do think it's foolish to see absolute newbies, or even medium newbies spout off info they have no understanding off. It's really the posturing that bothers me.

[Vanan]

Going with what Katt just mentioned, I too agree with BW's post. Misinformation CAN kill. Experience is one thing, and knowledge is another. I think one has to have a bit of both to be able to give advice.

Look at me for instance. Technically I've only had snakes as pets for about 3yrs. I have only bred corns and kings. This will be my first year with breeding boas and pythons. Even though I've had many species of snakes in my collection, I can only say I _know_ a species when I've raised and bred thrm and have dealt with problems commonly associated with them. Otherwise, it's only "when I had this problem this is what I did", or "according to most other's experience...".

Anyways, this has been a good thread. It's one of those things that have been a peeve of mine too (even though I'm a newbie). Glad that someone brought this up to help other newbies be aware.

Vanan
The Herp Room

[RachelS.]

I totally agree with this post. I am a "kid" myself and have been researching on the captive care and matainence (sp?) of crocodilians, and I have also handled a few spec. caimens. Now I know I'm absolutely ready for one. Have been wanting one for almost 2 years now, and at first I knew I wasn't ready until now. I'm getting one in a few months :).
About the venomous deal... I almost got a Gaboon Viper about a month ago, and I changed my mind for that Black Blood Python I have.... not only because I have been searching for a blood like that for almost a year, but also because I knew I wasn't quite ready for a hot. I'm looking for a mentor. I'm going to contact my local herp society and see if someone there is interested in teaching me how to handle and take care of these awesome reptiles. I already know a guy about an hour from me and I'm going to call him up again and ask him if he can help me out.
Another thing: I don't really care for the "beginner" type hots because they don't interest be in the least bit. I always go for what I'm interested in and what strikes my attention (and what I know I can handle after previous experiences, and what I keep and such). I don't want to get tired of what I didn't want in the first place. Does that make sense? I mean, it's not like I'm going to reach in and grab the herp in the first place... I'm not that stupid ;). This animal will be for my enjoyment, and viewing purposes only. Not to be cool and show off to my buddies. I never got why people did that in the first place, unless they are complete idiots, lol.
Anyway, I hope that shows what I think about this whole deal. Thanks for reading :)

[michele.kyle]

I agree with you all I am new to this in so far as I am from scotland and I dont know your terms. but surely what is posted is suggestion not gospel!!!!!!! when nobody answers to a novice like me you can understand the casualties in lack of communication and help given to a "novice" anyone else finding this problem contact me email or msg me . I have tried for help for weeks I'm still waiting for a response !!!!

[michele.kyle]

6000 members and nobody can help me. I must be doing something wrong help!!!!!! help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! help!!!!!!!!!!!!

[michele.kyle]

bws smith I appreciate what you say but if like me you dont know how to tell people what you got / had / how do you tell people what experience worked for you ?

[bistrobob85]

I defenetly like this thread, its one of the most pertinent thing i've read in a while... I think some people needed to read it, thanks BWS.

Rachel, you right, people who get snakes or lizards or big dogs to be cool and show off must be complete idiots with no respect for animals... I get to see tons of them ( i work in a pet store ) and they make me soo angry i would kick their face out of the store...
Worst of all, they all want BIG snakes to scare off the neighbors! What can be worst than a complete idiot ( that doesnt have no respect for the animal ) with a burmese python, a retic, a water monitor, an anaconda, a boa constrictor or any other poor animal...

phil.

[Rikki]

Age is not the issue, and it annoys me when people are always using the term Kid..... Adults give out the same info, age has nothing to do with anything! Its your expirience ;)

[marisa]

So how can a 15 year old have as much experience as a 45 year old? LMAO

I am not bashing kids, but I most certaintly do take advice given by an old time herper over a teenager in MOST cases.

Marisa

[Rikki]

Just because you are older does not mean you are more expirienced with reptiles. A 15 yeard old kid can know tons more about reptiles than a 45 yeard old.

[CamHanna]

Originally posted by Rikki
age has nothing to do with anything! Its your expirience

I would disagree, partially. Age does not have any direct relationship to experience but it does with potential experiance. If someone is 12 then they can not have (imo) more than 2 or three years of meaningful experience. I do think that at times the knowledge of younger folks is underappreciated but I see such an all-encompasing statement as "age has nothing to do with anything!" to be ignorant. At your age can you honestly say that you have the experience (at life in general) to make that statement. At 16 I know that I can't, though by that logic I can't denounce it either, just voicing my opinion.

[Cruciform]

Michele,

I just used the search function to look for the issue you're having trouble with. You haven't started any threads recently... that might be why no one is answering your requests for help.

If you're asking in someone elses thread it may be orphaned and no one is reading it.

Try starting a new thread with your issue.

[mykee]

Rikki: funny you should say that, you've posted on here 199 times so far and maybe 4 of those are legitimately reptiles posts.
It is unfortunate, but I've said it before and I'll ay it again. It's too bad that people would rather come online to a Forum and ask a question rather than research it themselves. God forbid they might learn something. Lazy, lazy, lazy.

[Crystal]

Just for giggles here i will disagree with the 15 year old not knowing more than 45 year old, this is an absurd statement, i myself have read so many herp books "actual published books by herpetologists (sp?)" that i couldn't even recount them all, but i am 22 my mind hungers for knowledge, but how many 45 year olds out there are the same? and i think most of us forget that we're all "Newbies" i dont care if you have 25 years experience under your belt, your still a newbie, the whole reason half of us are even in reptiles is for the love of keeping them, and LEARNING about them, the day you stop learning, is the day you graduate from "Newbie Slime"

End Of Vent

Crystal

[jjnnbns]

Here is a great article on the subject posted on VPI's website:

http://www.vpi.com/9VPITipsAndTechs/TheMeasureOfExperience/TheMeasureOfExperience.htm

It is an interesting read... the only thing that I don't like is that experience doesn't always lead to education...

some people who argue don't even know how to spell experience, yet argue about how much of it people can have.

I am by no means an expert, or even close. But I do read/research everything that I can find on snakes and my collection has grown tremendously as I have found which species would be great for me. I am also now just beginning to work on the experience thing.

I always take things with a grain of salt, because the internet is full of BS as well.

Brent Strande

PS, I used to look for 'experts' based on how many posts one person may have... but as Mykee has pointed out, someone can have a TON of posts, yet the majority of them are worthless.

[CamHanna]

Originally posted by jjnnbns
some people who argue don't even know how to spell experience, yet argue about how much of it people can have.

Originally posted by CamHanna
experiance

Oopsidaisies, sorry about that.

[JeffT]

One of the best threads ive read on here in a long time! I agree 100% with everything you mentioned.

And next to noobs giving false info, my biggest pet peeve is COMPULSIVE buyers! People who look at a pic on here, and automaticly decide they NEED that animal, or people who get a brand new thing every week and fail to properly read and care for the animal. Not an uncommon thing to see in the General Lizard/ varanid /gecko forums.

[Katt]

OMG Jeff! I NEED a mountain dew, put me on the list for a pair!

[Rikki]

Ok, people have there own opinions. Though i am expirienced with reptiles but even the most expirienced have questions. And a forum is a place where you can ask questions, and i stated ive heard about those issues. Lets not fight guys :p

[Matt_K]

Rikki, you have stated you're experienced with Reptiles a few times now.. Im just curious, what experience do you have?? What have you owned and for how long?? And by the way, working in a pet store, doesn't count as experience..

-Matt

[bistrobob85]

Yeah, i wrote something about that on another thread too...

[Rikki]

At the pet stort i work with a 11 ft burm, i own a nile, iguana, 2 red ear sliders, and a ball python. I owned a 5ft Iguana raised from a hatchling which i sold when we moved ( :( )..... Ive been in the reptile hobby for 4 years and all of my animals are in excellent condition.

[Matt_K]

So, the pet store allows you ALONE to work with this 11' burm? And DO you work with it alone??? From my personal Experience, handling an 11' burm alone is a no no.. And I gurantee, im 3 times your size..

Anyone can claim that their animals are in excellent condition, there is really no way to prove that.. Even pics aren't proof.. Anyone can clean their cages for a couple pics and then let everyone go to hell again.. But, i'll take your word for it and give you the benefit of the doubt, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.. :D

[Rikki]

No worries, i understand from your point of view. And no i dont work with the burm alone, i have before but i usually work with my friend John (15). Ive fed him alone and cleaned his cage alone, but i always show him with some one else. Never been bit, you get to know his body launguage.

[jparker1167]

I got my first bp around 9 years ago, and still consider myself a beginner. I am getting into other snakes now and have lots of questions but instead of posting the question and waiting for someone to answer it for my I use the search to find it. I'm looking to get a borneo blood within a year, but not I'm not sure if I'm ready so Im reading the python curtus forum from the beginning. sorry for the long post but I had nothing else to do.

[capsicum]

I have hesitated in replying to this post only because I know that I am deffinately a newbie in keeping reptiles :D

Also too, I ask a lot of questions regarding various animals, and mention a few that I would love to have (such as the burm which my husband and I have decided not to get, simply because we want to start a family sooner rather than later), but I hope that people don't think of me as some one who would get just about anything for any old reason :)

I do love animals and have been reading about animals since I was very little. I am new to reptiles and even newer to amphibians (I once had a newt, my first pet that I researched and saved up for when I was 9 years old).

Obviously I have been reading lots of books, websites, care sheets, newsletters, magazines, and forums regarding these creatures, as I would never want to harm any one of them by doing something wrong.

But anyways, I am greatful to the honest and intelligent people on this forum who have been gracious enough to offer their experience and opinions to all of my questions - Thank You :)

TK

[Dom]

So much Ranting .. lol

One thing really struck me .. Sorry to point you out Rikki but its very easy to see who has and does not have experience ..

Originally posted by Rikki
No worries, i understand from your point of view. And no i dont work with the burm alone, i have before but i usually work with my friend John (15). Ive fed him alone and cleaned his cage alone, but i always show him with some one else. Never been bit, you get to know his body launguage.

This ones paragrah gives it away and yet you still claim to be an experienced herper..

Originally posted by Rikki
Though i am expirienced with reptiles

Can you see all your mistakes??

Anyway .. As I said b4 .. the only way to know someone information right is to know it b4 hand ..

Ussually what I do if I have a question is research it and find as many responses as possible and the make and educated guess considering all the answers I have found.. the information is out there .. you just need to be able to weed out the bs..

[marisa]

I never said a 15 year old COULDN'T know as much as a 45 year old. But I DID say a 45 year old who has owned herps all their life MOST DEFINITLY has more experience than a 15 year old simply because of time. You cannot argue that. They can have potientially 30 more years experience than a 15 year old could possibly have no matter how many reptiles that 15 year old has. Period.

Not to say I reject teenagers advice as many are as knowledgable as an adult. It all depends on the individual.

Marisa

[mykee]

Exactly Marisa, there are a few people who are young and I would consider them to be both terribly mature, and highly knowledgeable when it comes to herps. One in particular that comes to mind is Jordan. Though I have personally never met him, and I don't think we have any reptiles in common, what I have read of his posts, he is highly mature, very knowledgeable, and he's what? 16? It's unfortunate that there are not more like him, regardless of age out there.

[bistrobob85]

''Im very expirienced with them, dont get me wrong'' from Rikki in the ''iguana'' thread.

Now this is the 4rth forum in which i see you telling people about your tremendous 4 years of herp keeping tons of experience!!!! This is getting pretty anoying!

phil.

[Rikki]

If its annoying dont read the post, and stop arguing ;)

[Katt]

Honestly Rikki, no one is going to believe you when you can not even SPELL experienced. Sure, ssnakess is not a spelling bee, but if you can't even spell the very word you claim to be, then it really shows your not.

As well, the very many herpers who are experienced and EXTREMELY knowledgable, have never once had to say, that they were. Their advice, their posts, their *well written posts* exude wisdom and experience.

You aren't cool, when you have to tell everyone you are cool.

[Rikki]

Where did i mis spell experience?

[Katt]

I rest my case.

[Rikki]

Damn, i never noticed that. I guess its a habbit typo like sometimes you may notice me to spell owner: ownder.....

[dave68]

I sure wish there was a hysterical laughter option to post!!LOL!!!

Dave

[Rikki]

LMAO2, i feel very dumb! I never even noticed that....

[Mustangrde1]

BW on his soap box again lol. BW my friend this needs to be posted all over the net. Wish this entire thread could be as it is a great one and one well wourth everyones time to read.

Most people that know me think of hots yet I have kept and breed many species of non-venomous for years. I guess the reason I do not post on Boas or Colub threads is im tired of seeing people try and tell people they are wrong, if they do it diffrently then them. The quest for knowledge and experiance is something we should all be open.

There is no such thing as an expert in a living science just those with higher degrees of experiance. I try to live by that rule when reading information or opinions of people so that i am open to new ideas and ways to better keep my animals.

Age is of no issue to me. We have a 14 year old in our herp society that when it comes to certain species of snakes blows me away. Not only can he explain genetics of breeding and care but he can explain why and how. I know a 19 year old that has been keeping hots since he was 15 and is someone I would let work with me because of his knowledge and maturity. On the same tokken there are many I would never no matter how many years they have.

Look no further then Kapplan. Many call her an { expert } _____________________ <~~~~pause so all can laugh. You look over her sheets you will laugh. Yet I hear by many people oh she is the best. In talking to people though that are imo an expert they can point out many inacurrate information points in her post.

Oh damn im getting on a soap box now. Guess my point is take what you read concider the source and research more articles and journals and find the repeating fact and throw out the myths.

No spell checking me i dont care how bad it is this early:)

[DragnDrop]

I think part of the problem is considering "experience" and "knowledge" to be interchangeable. They aren't, not even a little bit. I've got several hundred years experience according to the scale mentioned in the original post, yet I wouldn't say I'm an expert herper.

As an example, I've had a (gecko) Rhacodactylus l. henkeli for just over 4 years now. All I've learned from her so far is how to feed her, her preferred foods, feeding times and methods, or how to tell if she's too hot. I've learned she has a great vocabulary of noises which she uses mostly at night to keep me awake. Since I don't have a male, I have no knowledge about their mating and breeding routines, no idea of their interactions with others of their species. She's still young, so there's no experience with geriatric leachies, and she's never been sick, so there are no medical expericences to pass on. Yet, if I were to say I have over 4 years experience with Leachianus, you'd think I should know it all, or most of it.

On the other hand, I've got tons of knowledge about dart frogs that I accumulated over 6 years of keeping them. Within a year of keeping my first 12 darts, I learned everything from acclimating new acquisitions all the way through breeding, raising tadpoles and froglets. And I even learned about the internal makeup, unfortunately some of them died. The dead ones taught me about buying/shipping darts, about how to make sure they really are CB not WC or farmed and how to treat them accordingly. How to make sure the shipper knows how to package and ship them properly. I learned way more about darts in 12 months than I learned about Leachianus in 4 years. Yet, if I'd said back then that I had 1 year of experience with darts, I would have been labelled a newbie, not to be listened to.


Experience does not necessarily bestow knowledge, nor vice versa. Yet a lack of either one will greatly increase the other.

[BoidKeeper]

I posted this one already but I think it works here too.
This is from Greg Maxwell author of the complete chondro.
"As the number of forums grew, and teh popularity of the most active forums increased, moderation became a problem. Self-styled "experts" with little to no experience or results jockeyed for attention and juveniles with no apparent education about grammar or punctuation used the boards for daily playgrounds. As many people know, the biggest problem with the Internet is that anybody can say literally anything. If knowledgeable and experienced people don't correct errors and keep things on track, then bad information spreads rapidly and confusion abounds. If these people do stand up and speak, those corrected can become openly hostile, and if forum moderators don't control this then good forums can be quickly ruined. At one point the, the strife became so bad that KS shut down all of its forums for a brief period. More than one forum was left closed, but those that remained open continued to allow a "free for all" atmosphere. Those who were intent on having intelligent discussions grew more and more frustrated with the situation, and most serious users got fed up and left. Unfortunately, human nature being what it is, this situation is doomed to be repeated anywhere mature and qualified moderators are not actively involved with Internet forms."
Cheers,
Trevor

[Mustangrde1]

Trevor. You brought up a great point. I do not see it happen here to often thank god. But all to often on other sites. Moderators need to be able to inforce the rules of sites but also be able to allow for corrections from other members. It is a tough line sometimes.

The problem ive seen on a few forums is the { god } like status some members feel they have and a few mods. I have even seen some Mods say { never question me or my credentials are beyound question do not question them or your post will be deleted.} This pisses me off to know end. I guess i have a more easy attitude then most but if I am wrong or off or forgot something I would welcome someone to point it out or ask about what i left out or forgot. But to be Rude to a new member or outright cruel in correcting a person will turn people off from posting or cause them to say screw you and do it anyway which both can lead to the animals not being given better care and that I just cant stand. We all need to be more forgiving and polite in how me talk to and or correct people.

Human nature is a wild beast and I know ive started off some of my post with some very nasty comments then going back and rereading them edited it. We all need to work for the betterment of information and animals well being.

[BoidKeeper]

Amen to that. And I need to work on my judgment so I stope getting sucked into arguments with kids.
Trevor

[marisa]

You aren't the only one Boidkeeper. Many many times I should keep my mouth shut, I don't. And the minute I hit the reply button, I know I should have just left it alone. :P

Marisa

[BoidKeeper]

Ah but let's not forget this part,
If knowledgeable and experienced people don't correct errors and keep things on track, then bad information spreads rapidly and confusion abounds. If these people do stand up and speak, those corrected can become openly hostile, and if forum moderators don't control this then good forums can be quickly ruined.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Siretsap]

I would like to point out something. Sometimes grammar shouln't be taken into consideration to grade someone with experience...

I mainly speak French at home, I went to a French school all my life and I also work in an environment that is mainly French (but i do get many calls from the Bikini Villages in Ontario, and we know they speak English). So the most common mistakes for me are which, whitch, tought and thought.... so I will make mistakes in those words. Even if I will sometimes put that wicked old lady with a broom in a sentence where it should mean the other word, it doesen't mean I am a newb and do not know anything about reptiles.

I do not see how anyone can put a tag on someone as a newb or anything by the grammar mistakes he makes or spelling.

I do not consider myself an expert.
To me an expert is someone who is able to make a whole cycle in the life of the reptile it owns (from birth, to breeding to birth again) and can keep his reptiles in very good shape and that has enough guts to be able to admit that he might still learn something about that species down the line.

I was able to fully cycle a leopard gecko and fat tail life cycle and still consider there is much to learn on them.

There is not only one way to keep a reptile, that is what many of us have trouble according with. If you are not able to accept the fact that there is more than only the way you succesfully kept your animal, then you are not an expert in my opinion.

And also, I would prob put an expert tag on some of the older people, not because of their age, but pecuase they would be the ones who have taken the reptiles that were wc and acclimated them to the captivity conditions to a certain level. They were the pionners in keeping reptiles in captivity. They allowed most of us to buy captive bred specimens that would already eat, and eat mice and rats, cause we all know not all snakes would eat those things in the wild.

How many of us today buy captive bred specimens? And why? Because we do not want to have to fight with the animal all the time to get it to eat. We do not want to have to treat it for parasites and bacterial diseases... So how can we consider ourselves experts if we aren't ready to take the challenge a wild animal would give us?

Just my thoughts

Michael

[mykee]

Michael; the type of grammar/spelling mistakes are often a sure sign of the intelligence level of the poster, but not their experience level. Very often do I see posters (like yourself to some degree) who make grammatical errors and spelling mistakes clearly due to the fact that English is not their chosen, or first language. Those mistakes are easy to point out. The other type of spelling/grammar mistakes are made by those who plain old type too fast (Trevor and myself included). These mistakes are often words that include an extra letter from "residual" touching of a second key, i.e. anmd:and, or fopr: for. The last type of spelling/grammar mistake are often made by those who are just plain old don't care or just cannot spell. Continuous spelling errors of the same word; their instead of there, we're instead of where (these are my pet peeves). For the most part, these are the people that either haven't taken the time to learn how to spell, or just plain old could care less what other people think about the thought they put into their posts. This tells a lot about a person. Intelligence is how you put a sentence together and knowledge is the information in the sentence.
Trevor & Marisa; and you two thought you talk too much. I should have a Personal Editor with me 24-7. Most of the time, my brain can't keep up with my typing fingers. And after "Submit Reply" it's just too late... Fiddlesticks!!

[CDN-Cresties]

Just as a side note Mykee, some people may have a Learning Disability/difference which may effect their grammer which has nothing to do with their intelligence level. Although im not sure if any one on this site has one.

[BoidKeeper]

I am the first one to defend people with learning disabilities considerin I'm a dyslexic school teacher. Also during my major in psyc I learned that spelling has never been used as a measure of a persons intelligence. And besides asking someone with dyslexia to spell something with some help would be like asking a blind person to look here or a wheel chair user to go for a walk.
The grammer that Greg is refering to is not caused by language barriers it's caused by people spelling words incorectly on purpose like kewl for example.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Invictus]

The one that drives me insane the most is "your". It is by far the most misused word on the Internet, and I would say that 90% of all people who use the Internet do not know the diffence between "your" and "you're". No one can tell me it's a typo either - it is just plain a lack of knowledge on proper grammar.

[BoidKeeper]

On a final note I have two university degrees, can't spell to save my life but neither of those two facts reflect upon my ability to consitently maintain a healthy collection of reptiles that I have been able to reproduce.
Cheers,
Trevor

[bighillreptiles]

Up untill ten years ago I could not read nor wright at all ,In the last ten years i have tacken every opp to learn as much as i can and still keep on trying as best i can .Don't care who will talk or reply to my post if spelling was rong or not .I try to learn for #1 my self Paul . I have been keeping all types of animals for over 20 years and thay don't care if one can read or wright as lone as every one of there needs are meat at all times .Sorry abought venting I have had people make coments abought spelling to me in the past and that is one of my pet pevs,aske befor you critise

[Mustangrde1]

OK here is one for you. I know of several very famous herpers who do not have high school diplomas yet these people would most certainly be called true experts. There are many old school field researchers who we look up to and still to this day and still site their work that did not have a diploma are they stupid? Some of these people more then likely had other people write their finding by dictation. Had they done it more then likely it would have had a great many errors but would the information been less useful or correct?

If you judge by spelling its a true shame because you may have just lost a valuable and contributing member that could very likely have made a major difference. The correcting of a persons spelling or discounting them because of it will cause them not to come back and post.

The sites forums are supposed to be for all to enjoy and contribute to! They certainly should not ever be a high school English class where people or their knowledge are graded based on spelling. Yes, to some degree its important but I think I would rather have the bad spelling and good info than no post because someone was blasted or insulted for their ability to spell.

[CamHanna]

Nevermind.

[Cruciform]

A few years ago I saw a documentary on learning disabilities, (Nature of Things maybe? Anyone else see it?) and in talking about dyslexia they brought up research that indicated it mainly occurs in people with above average intelligence.

Between dyslexic friends and co-workers for whom english is a second language, I see a lot of strange looking email. But it's often easily understood with a bit of practice. Heck, some of the people I've worked with in the past I couldn't understand at all in conversation, but their English was perfect in writing.

As long as we're all talking sense, and can understand each other, our idiosyncrasies can be overlooked :)

[Mustangrde1]

Heh oh ya one of my biggest pet peaves. People who think the number of post you do makes you smarter then anyone else. I wish all sites dealt away with the numbers or cute tag names with names such as { expert or guru or herpgod} they tend to mislead people in to beleiving those people know alot when in fact it could be a person that sits on a computer all day with nothing better to do.

[BoidKeeper]

Mike I'll take that as a complament.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Samba]

Ok, I avoided this post because I didn't want to have to sit here for an hour and mention everything I thought pertinent, but I WILL speak up about the spelling skills.

In another post not too long ago I told someone that if they wanted to seem like an authority on a subject they should learn how to spell. Some took this as cruel (like I was making fun). I was not making fun, and, regardless of the excuse, poor spelling and grammar will lead the reader to believe (and I am not afraid to admit this) that the writer may not be a reliable resource on the topic at hand.

I myself am disabled, and I would never put anyone down; however, I have to agree with those of you here that follow a similar train of thought. I do understand that many people on this site are learning English as a second language, and I totally encourage the development.

Now, on to the topic on the inexperienced giving advice. Whether their motives be good or bad, I admit it is irritating to have someone you consider 'less knowledgeable' than yourself tell you what they think. I once had a person tell me how to care for my burmese python when they themselves never owned one! (On top of that I wasn't even seeking advice on his care).

The worst that can happen with uncorrected information is that it will spread (as mentioned above) and people will regard it as truthful. Obviously the great danger in this is the welfare of the animals in question is at jeopardy.

If you criticize someone too harshly they are likely to become defensive and/or ignore you... the opposite of what we want to accomplish. For the persons here who are experienced, I believe it is our duty to gently correct and guide inexperienced keepers so that they will do better for their pets.

I'd have a whole lot more to say, but I'm at work (as usual) and must limit my reply.

[CamHanna]

This link comes from Matt K in another thread, it's a spellchecker that can be incorporated into your browser (IE at least) for this exact thing. Now, my little peeves; then/than, improper comma use and '.' intead of '?'. Though I suppose the '?'s complaint is a little hypocritical, '?' are far and away my biggest problem.

Anyways, hope the link helps.

Cam

http://www.iespell.com/

[Cruciform]

Looks like there's been a port of a spellchecker for Mozilla Firefox as well:

http://www.exchangecode.com/spellbound/

[marisa]

I am still missing these people who look at number of posts to see how "experienced" someone is...????? Seriously....people have mentioned it before, but I have yet to see anyone truely think it means how smart or experienced someone is....honestly is this a real problem? I just haven't ever noticed it.

Marisa

[Siretsap]

I think it was a while back, when you had different tags on under your avatar depending on the number of posts you had. And stars I think or something. Can't remember properly but I am pretty sure people are refering to this.

[Samba]

Marisa - I personally haven't seen this as a problem as well. I do commend sSnakeSs on getting rid of the 'ranks' above our avatars. That would be misleading, I believe, but the number of posts one makes is irrelevant to their actual knowledge; I, like you, don't think that is an issue here.

I may be wrong... if anyone believes that the number of posts is indicative to their knowledge and experience please know that it is not. I am a prime example! LOL =)

Beat me to it, Siretsap!!! I was just writing the same thing, but you posted first!!! LOL =)

[CamHanna]

I admit I do take a glance at the number of posts from time to time, not really to accomplish anything. I know that it means nothing. LOL, right now I have more posts than BGF.

[heebie_geebies]

I want to add one quick thing about spelling, even though it wasn't the starting topic for this thread. I just don't want start a new thread/argument on spelling. All things considered (disabilities, typos, neglect, etc.), improper spelling will take away some effectiveness of the "Search" feature.

As for the level of experience of posters, I haven't had too much of a problem picking which posts to disregard. Since I joined in May, I have been (and still will be) constantly researching my first reptile. Read tons of threads/posts and usually usernames will stick out as either spewing off heresy or relaying valuable information. The number of posts means nothing to me. Yes it’s an exaggeration, but who knows when some herper will come out of the jungles/desert from years of research and sign up at Ssnakess. Personally, I will look more at the date they joined then combine that with some of their earlier posts using the "Search for all posts by this user". From that, I can usually get a rough idea of whose advice is more accurate and even better, from their personal experience.

Just my thoughts, take them as you will.

[Invictus]

I meant to clarify in my post that my pet peeve with the words "your" and "you're" is its own issue and has nothing to do with who I consider to be an expert. The reason I didn't comment on experience is because despite the several years of research I did before ever owning a snake and the over 25 different SPECIES of snakes I've worked with, the largest collection I've maintained at one time being 47 animals, I'm utterly fed up with people who assume I know nothing just because I've been keeping snakes for a year and a half. I like to think that the advice I offer on this board is sound advice, even though I'm a 'n00b'.

[jjnnbns]

Originally posted by marisa
I am still missing these people who look at number of posts to see how "experienced" someone is...????? Seriously....people have mentioned it before, but I have yet to see anyone truely think it means how smart or experienced someone is....honestly is this a real problem? I just haven't ever noticed it.

Marisa

Where I let this come into play was when I was new to the site: first online messageboard that I really had ever seen.

If someone gave me info, I was more likely to check elsewhere to verify if it was their first post or whatnot, as opposed to someone with over 1,000 posts.

Believe me, I also double checked those with multiple posts (and found that some with mult posts gave the most worthless answers!) but usually found that they had more reliable advice overall.

[BWSmith]

Wow, this thread got resurrected. :D

[ib_inked]

I thinc it shows that you kare what you post wen you tacke the tyme to at leeest do a spill cheque.
It shows proppr rispekt to thos reeding.

[Samba]

LMFAO IB_INKED!!!! =)

[tHeGiNo]

You aren't the only one Boidkeeper. Many many times I should keep my mouth shut, I don't. And the minute I hit the reply button, I know I should have just left it alone. :P

Marisa, you are aware of the edit button right? :P Just kidding of course.

Common people really, if a couple misspelt words bother you THAT much, you seriously need to reconsider the important things in life, and just relax :D. Heh.

As for number of posts = experienced, I think that is only a belief of newer members to the site. Once your here for a month or two, you start to pick out who is who.

[Samba]

TheGino - It's not that misspelled words bother us; the point we are trying to make is that someone who repeatedly misspells words, for whatever reason, doesn't 'come off' as a reliable, educated resource.

Anyways, it's off topic somewhat, so I'll just leave it at that. =)

[Ixidor]

GRRRR....SPELL CHECK......GRRRRRR.......YOUNG KIDS........relax guys if somones gonna give false information they're gonna do it regardless whether you like it or not......my point being is if somone posts to tell you something about your reptile, you should be smart enough to search elsewhere for answers (IE internet books and other places) If somone says something totally outrageous as somone stated about treating mites with rubbing alcohol on the site, PLZ make sure you check that information!!!! Keeping the animals in mind of course.... If I did any bashing in my replyy plz forgive me I didn't really wanna cause another arugument.....Anyway, thats just my thoughts guys


alex

[bistrobob85]

Yeah well spelling isn't a good argument for judging of people's experience... English might not be their first language ( as in my case, French goes first ), they might be in a hurry, bothered about something else or they're just drunk!!! I'm sorry for all the bashing i did in the post ( a little like Ixidor ), but i was just amazed that someone alouds a 14 years old to own a nile monitor which will grow much faster than he is and will be possibly harmfull... I know everyone has to start somewhere but some things should be left out of the reach of the general public...

phil.

[BoidKeeper]

doesn't 'come off' as a reliable, educated resource.
Again, that is a mistake for you or anyone else to think that way. I have two university degrees and can't spell to save my life.
Neither the two degrees nor my inability to spell reflect upon my ability as keeper in any way. There are great spellers on here that give out bad info on a daily bases. Also some of the Canada's most successful breeders on here have nothing more than a high school education. Does it make them any less credible when they give advice?
Long story short, spelling ability does not equal experience or credibility for giving out advice. Or, spelling skills are not a reflection of herp related experience. Anyone who disregards advice based on poor grammar and spelling may only be hurting him or her selves. Just because it's not spelled correctly doesn't mean that the info is any less valuable. If a person in a wheel chair offers you directions on how to walk down town should they be dismissed too just because they can't walk?
Cheers,
Trevor

[Samba]

Alex - I totally agree with you!! However, just to make things clear, I am not implying that poor spelling = uneducated keepers. If you own an animal you should already know just about everything there is to know about it, before the purchase.

Phil, I also understand and agree with you, however people are going to do what they want, regardless of what anyone else tells them. To us, it does sound like a bad idea that a 14 yr. old owns a Nile Monitor, but maybe he's an exceptional kid... who knows?

BoidKeeper - It's a mistake for my opinion to be that it LOOKS uneducated if a writer can't spell? No. It would be a mistake if I said that lack of spelling skills = lack of experience/knowledge. Again, I will clear up any confusion - I am not saying that just because a person can't spell doesn't mean they are uneducated, I am simply saying it does and will APPEAR that way. First impressions are sometimes the only thing you have to go by.

Geez, has anyone been READING this????

[Cruciform]

Of course they have.

Look at it this way: Interpreting someone's education or experience based on the way they spell can only produce flawed results in this medium.

It's a forum used by people from around the world, from many different backgrounds and languages as well as disabilities.

Using spelling as a guage means that you are assuming the following:

1) The poster is fluent in North American English.
2) The poster has received a balanced education despite their location, race, or financial disposition.
3) The poster is able to overcome any linguistic or learning disabilities.

There are smart people everywhere, it doesn't mean they're going to get the education or support they need.

I'm not attacking your opinion, just pointing out that using bad data will only generate bad results.

Look beyond the spelling at what people are saying, and the information contained within. That is the measure of their knowledge.

I can spell with the best of them, it doesn't mean my opinions on proper husbandy of Varanids is worth anything. It would look good, but I'd be full of **** :D

[Samba]

Cruciform,

I agree with you, I agree that a person's knowledge and experience can't be judged by their spelling capabilities. All I have said, and I seem to be struggling at this point to get people to understand, is that on a first impression, I, and I'm sure many other people, will question the reliabilty of an author who has poor spelling skills. That doesn't mean I don't read what they have to say, and by the same token, some people spell beautifully here but don't have a worthwhile thing to say.

If it LOOKS uneducated it may effect the way I interpret their information. It doesn't mean it IS unreliable, it doesn't mean the author IS NOT experienced. All it means is that I tend to be cautious about the information when reading a post. Yes, just because their writing wasn't perfect.

I'm not perfect either... I'm not beyond mistakes, or being human, and I'm sorry if anyone is offended by my opinions, but that's the way I am, and who I am is not something I will be sorry for.

Again, for the millionth time, I am not making fun, or saying anyone who can't spell is stupid.

[capsicum]

Samba, I see where you're going with this. If your first impression of someone is that they are uneducated (unless their location gives it away [English not their first language] or they explain a problem with the language), one would be tempted to think that they might not know what they are discussing.
I have that problem too, but mine is being OCD and highly irritated by spelling errors (which I myself make a lot of, lol). Personally I am working at assuming nothing about the person posting. Hopefully it will keep me out of trouble lol.

TK

[BoidKeeper]

I am simply saying it does and will APPEAR that way. First impressions are sometimes the only thing you have to go by.
Yes, it's sad but true. The average person equates spelling skills with intelligence. Luckily for me and others who can't spell IQ is not measured by ones ability to spell.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Samba]

Trevor... I'm starting to question your ability to READ. I have said, repeatedly, that I do not equate spelling with intelligence or experience.

Capsicum,, thank you for understanding! LOL, I think this forum is going to drive me crazy!!! LOL =)

[BoidKeeper]

I never said you did, I quoted you because I agreed with you about first impressions. If you read something and it's not spelled right you will assume the worse straight away. I'm saying that people do but shouldn't.
Cheers,
Trevor

[ib_inked]

"Me fail english? That's unpossible!"

[BoidKeeper]

Way to go Ralph!

[ib_inked]

haha, you know that one!
I like you better every day.