View Full Version : Making another attempt at switching from mice to rats. Advice?
Ok, so I recently got a young carpet and I now have a good supply of rat pups which are pretty much the same size as the adult mice I've been feeding my ball (all F/T).
Basically I'm just wondering if I'm doing things right or if I could be doing more. I'm committed to not giving him mice anymore unless he starts losing weight. Its been about a month since he's eaten anything. The last two weeks I've tried giving him a rat pup. The first week I just thawed and heated the rat pup in a baggie with two mice. Plopped it in his cage and my ball just stuck his head out of the cage, sniffed it and then laid part way out of his hide all night, ignoring the pup.
A couple nights ago, I scented the pup with mice blood/guts. Basically I just sliced open the mouse belly and smeared blood over the pup and rubbed the guts on it. (somewhat surprising to me there wasnt a lot of blood. I was expecting more to just flow out.
For the next feeding I'm planning on doing the same but this time cutting open a part of the pop skull to expose the brain.
I heat them up via heat mat to around 84 degrees, and to be honest, its probably warmer than I've heated the mice up to that he takes no problem.
The last feeding he did seem interested in it but I sat there for a moment to watch and then I moved and I think it spooked him and he slithered back into his hide. So i left and of course he didnt eat.
Any suggestions on doing more? Should I just stick with what I'm doing and hope he's hungry enough to take one eventually?
Albert Clark
05-31-16, 03:13 PM
Yeah Z, it's a tough love endeavor trying to switch them over. I would heat the rats up a bit higher than 84f bc normal body temp of a live rat is 100f - 102f. So you have to bring up your warming temps. Dont worry to much about the dissecting and concentrate more on offering a much warmer rat to him. Use your temp gun to get a accurate temp on the rat before you offer it.
Ok will do. thanks. And not worrying about the dissecting, do you include scenting with blood in that? (I assume you mean so but just want to clarify)
and now that I think of it, shoulda made this thread in the food for thought forum. doh!
Albert Clark
06-01-16, 12:11 AM
I would first try the raising of the internal temps of the rat. See what kind of response you get then go to plan B. Lol. Try spacing out the offerings also. A refusal can be reinforced by offering too frequently too.
Wood shavings that a mouse has been on work excellent for scenting and I found that method to be much more effective than using blood. Also...just something to keep in mind...if you crank on the hot water on your faucet and put the head/snout of the rat underneath it for a few seconds, that should be enough warming up to trigger a feeding response. Most households have their hot water coming out at anywhere from 100-120 degrees fahrenheit. Saves you from having to measure the temp and it occurs very quickly.
Awesome guys thanks. Ill check back with progress next feeding.
Aaron_S
06-01-16, 06:14 PM
You can also use hemostats or large tweezers to simulate movement with the pup
toddnbecka
06-01-16, 09:41 PM
I got 2 live weaned rats to try switching my larger carpet over. First I dropped a live rat in, he seemed interested (1 mouse in 2 weeks, recently shed) but wouldn't quite strike. Then I dropped in a small live mouse, which was immediately taken, thinking it would get him into feeding mode. A few minutes after swallowing the mouse he had the rat in coils. I had placed the 2nd young rat in the cage with the 3 adult male rats (default pets from a year ago when I last tried feeding rats) and one of them killed the new young one. I had specified female rats in case these weren't taken either, but when I got the freshly killed young one out I saw that it was a male. The first rat was just about finished going down the hatch, so I dangled the bloody dead one with tongs, and it was taken after a minute or so of consideration.
So I've tried a couple more feedings...I've heated the pups up to about 101 degrees, give or take 1-2....two feedings ago he was in shed, didnt even come out to inspect.
Tried again the other night a few days after his shed. I wiggled and moved the pup around with tweezers, trying to mimic movement around the cage. Goldy popped his head out to see what was up, then I moved the pup back behind of fake leaf and Goldy came out and inspected...got right up to the pup and then backed off. I set the pup down (with mice I just lay them outside of his hide and he gets them after I leave the room), and left....didnt even budge the pup.
I've seen a couple people suggest placing the pup in the hide and blocking the exit as sometimes that can "force" them to eat. Is that a decent suggestion? Should I just keep doing what I'm doing? Patience isnt my strong point and not feeding my animals sucks. Part of me just wants to give in and give him multiple mice from now on but another part says its better to get him on rats.
Just be patient and persistent. Just don't try to offer food too often as that can sometimes make them shy away. As long as its not loosing weight then not eating for a little while should not be much of an issue. Did you try going to the pet store and asking for the soiled mouse bedding? Then you can put the rat pup in with the bedding to really get a good scent going.
This is a gamble, but you could also try a live rat pup as a last resort. That can sometimes backfire though and make them only want live prey.
Just be patient and persistent. Just don't try to offer food too often as that can sometimes make them shy away. As long as its not loosing weight then not eating for a little while should not be much of an issue. Did you try going to the pet store and asking for the soiled mouse bedding? Then you can put the rat pup in with the bedding to really get a good scent going.
This is a gamble, but you could also try a live rat pup as a last resort. That can sometimes backfire though and make them only want live prey.
I dont have anywhere near by that sells rat pups. Just small adults. I recently just got him onto F/T (in the past couple months) so I'm trying to avoid live. Though I've tried live in the past and the rats were very bullish and just scared him.
I'm trying feeding every 10 days (same schedule as my new carpet). I'll go to petco and see if I can get some of their mouse bedding and see how that goes....
EL Ziggy
06-19-16, 08:29 PM
Zelg- Do you have pictures of your snake and setup? What are his enclosure temps like? Are you feeding him at night and have you tried leaving the prey item in the enclosure overnight? I also agree with serving the prey item at 100F. You could try offering a very small mouse and a rat immediately afterwards. Sometimes when they're still in feeding mode they'll take whatever's offered next. The hunger always wins the end and it might take months of tough love.
Zelg- Do you have pictures of your snake and setup? What are his enclosure temps like? Are you feeding him at night and have you tried leaving the prey item in the enclosure overnight? I also agree with serving the prey item at 100F. You could try offering a very small mouse and a rat immediately afterwards. Sometimes when they're still in feeding mode they'll take whatever's offered next. The hunger always wins the end and it might take months of tough love.
Ill get a picture up tomorrow. Temp is set at 84...so it fluctuatea betweem 81 and 84. ill check the hotspot as well...though hes currently hanging out on the hotside after months on the cool side. Cool side probably gets no lower than 78...probably at 80.
Ive left them overnight as well. From my experience with him though if he hasnt eaten the food within 30 mins after i leave the room he wont eat it at all. Could be wrong but thats what ive experienced with him thus far.
I guess im also hesitant to offer a mouse before the rat though as in worried he'll just feel satisfied with the one mouse and continuing holding out for more mice. I certainly dont know though.
Anyhow...ill get a pic of his setup tomorrow.
macandchz
06-20-16, 11:47 AM
zelg-how did you get him on f/t?
Here's a pic of his setup.
http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj616/zelg21/20160620_114829_zpsz2mu7huf.jpg (http://s1270.photobucket.com/user/zelg21/media/20160620_114829_zpsz2mu7huf.jpg.html)
zelg-how did you get him on f/t?
Mac, I got him on F/T by initially using freshly killed. I'd open his cage, kill the mouse and then, like mentioned above, hold it in the tongs and wiggle him around a bit, entice the snake a bit and then I would just leave it in the cage. I think it only took 2 or 3 tries to get him to take freshly killed. After maybe 3 or 4 feedings of freshly killed, I began using F/T and heating them up. I had only been heating them to about 93 degrees, but as stated above its probably best to go to 100 or so.
WOOHOO!(?) lol.
He hadnt eaten since 5/1, so nearly 3 months w/o food. I felt so bad about it and am thrilled to report that he finally took a rat pup.....with a catch....I had pretty much just given up and was going to feed him his two mice and be done with it and just accept that he'll be on mice fooooorreeeevvveeeerrr. Just as I put the mice out with my carpet's rat pup on the heat mat to thaw and heat them up I decided I would do an extra rat pup and see if he'd at least take that first.
So I put the rat pup in, wiggled it around, teased a little and then it slipped off the tongs and spooked Goldy and he retreated into his hide. So I left it there a few moments, checked back to see if he moved it at all. Nope. So now I took a mouse, waved it around his cage to get the smell around and then just simply laid the mouse on top of the rat. Whether or not laying it directly on the rat pup helped or not, IDK, but I came back about 40 minutes later fully expecting to remove the rat pup and throw it away only to find out that it was gone! Wooohooo!
So, now the question will be, do I offer only a rat pup next time? Do I do the same thing? Offer the rat pup, if he doesnt take it at first, lay the mouse over the rat pup? Will he figure that if I give him one mouse and a pup that he can just hold out for another mouse?
My plan is to just do the same thing, give him a mouse over a rat for another feeding or two before going two rat pups.
Either way I feel like a big hurdle has just been passed. Hopefully its a new beginning.
Albert Clark
07-29-16, 05:25 PM
Congrats Z! You and Goldy on your way. Haha. Nice job.
I started Buddy, first named but now need to change to a "girl" name after popping, on mice hoppers when I got HER on July 8th. She weighed 77 grams then an now just before her Sunday feeding - now rat fuzzies, weighed 145 grams - almost doubled. anyway, back on track, for the initial mice and rat meals I use hot tap water at ~120' in a small plastic cup and heat to maybe 100' or so (meal in a sealed plastic bag) and not wetting the meal itself, not enuf to cook the meal, but, warm enuf to make sure the fuzzies present a GOOD heat signature. Have had no problems yet :-) with feedings and I believe the warm temp make for a better feeding response. Anyway, that's MY story... YMMV..
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