View Full Version : Beginner prep setup ideas... sound good?
Now that we've settled into our new living situation, myself and my partner are ready to seriously consider the ball python we've both wanted for quite a while. I've been doing tons of research but so far what I've figured out is that there are approximately one thousand ways to care for your bp and just as many opinions on which is the best method. ;)
I thought I'd join a couple of the forums I've been lurking on to actually directly ask, instead of trying to piece together answers and opinions from a dozen different threads that are spread out over several years! I want to be sure of what I'm going to do as far as our snake's habitat before we really start thinking about which snake we want, and ideally we'll have the habitat here and set up a day or two ahead of the snake so we can iron out the particulars of setting the thermostat to the needed temperature and getting humidity up to where it needs to be, etc.
First questions first, though. One of my main concerns is that I've seen people mentioning high-traffic areas being a no-no. Right now we have a large, sturdy stand that used to hold our TV, and ideally we'd be using it for the habitat/snake, but it's in the den and we live in basically a 3-room apartment -- bathroom, den, bedroom (kitchen upstairs with the folks) so there's not much room to isolate the snake. I'll totally admit I'm partial to the idea of being able to watch our snake when my insomnia is acting up and therefore I'm in the den on my laptop in the wee hours while boyfriend sleeps in the bedroom, but would it be better to have the enclosure on the dresser in the bedroom, where there's also more natural light during the day (the basement area we live in is partially underground, the den itself has no windows) and where it's overall quieter at night? There's also the factor of the vent being in the den, so it might be easier to regulate habitat temps and humidity in the bedroom, where it's further away. I toyed with setting up in the bathroom (very low traffic, bonus humidity when we shower) but there's just not enough room to have everything in there without running the risk of bumping into things.
Also, we have 2 dogs. Not large enough to really get a great view at the top of the stand even now, but tall enough to poke their noses up there if they want. A tank would probably be a curiosity at first, but mostly they sleep and eat, so I don't predict a lot of sniffing and prodding at it. Would it be reasonable to take that on a case by case basis, and relocate the tank to an out of reach location if they become a problem?
Beyond location issues, right now I'm torn on the pros/cons of using a tub (i.e. sterilite or zip-lock weatherproof) vs. a glass terrarium. I've seen a lot of opinions stating that all a terrarium is good for is aesthetic, but just as many opinions stating it holds heat and moisture better than a tub would. I've also seen a few opinions floating around that reaching down to pick up your snake can invite nerves more than reaching from the side would, which would only be possible if I invest in a terrarium with a sliding glass door as opposed to the tub or a terrarium that opens from the top. I haven't seen as much about plastic terrariums (unless I'm just not paying attention) but they seem to exist? Maybe I'm not realizing that a lot of terrariums mentioned are plastic, not glass. Either way, terrariums obviously seem to be the more expensive option, but I'm not in any rush and would rather take time and save up a chunk for the right habitat and take longer to get the snake if it would definitely benefit the snake's wellbeing. However, what I'm guessing is that there's probably no 100% single correct answer on this particular topic, but getting a few more opinions directly on the issue might help me make a decision on what's best for our situation. I will say it does seem like sterilite tubs will be easier to secure, and making sure the habitat is escape-proof is essential. Our dogs have basically no prey drive but an escape while we're gone could still go badly... not to mention the rest of the house it could get to!
Aside from the type... lots of differing opinions on the progression of housing a juvenile > adult. I've considered getting a sterilite that's smaller than the endgame goal and upgrading to a terrarium when the snake reaches adult size, or close enough to count. But I've seen some opinions that state providing ample hides and maybe foliage to block some of the view out and up would be enough to suitably house a juvenile in a larger terrarium (or tub for that matter).
If I have a juvenile in a larger habitat I'll end up stuffing several hides in there to take up space so it's more inviting, but if not my ideal is to have room for 3 different hides (one for hot spot area, one midway, and one for the cool end) and upgrade habitat size as needed to fit snake, hides, and water dish. I haven't found a lot on where to place water dishes, I'm not sure if cool end is better in case snake is trying to cool off (though if it's both in the cool end & soaking to cool off I'd be concerned my overall ambient temps are running a little too high for comfort, whether due to snake pref or because my heating elements are borked) or if hot end might encourage quicker evaporation and therefore a helpful boost to humidity?
Basking spots -- necessary, beneficial, optimal, even worth it at all? I didn't realize BPs would climb at all, and I'm not even sure how one would go about installing a large enough branch in a habitat to begin with, but I'm sure google and youtube would show me the way if it's something that can actually benefit the snake.
I think I've settled on cypress mulch for substrate, but I'll probably start with paper towels so on the off chance snake comes with mites, I can spot them easier and treat/sterilize easier.
Okay, onto heating. I know I'm asking a TON of questions but I promise I've already done research... I'm just looking for direct opinions (or answers, if there's a general widely-accepted "right way") for my exact questions. I see a lot of people saying RHPs or CHEs are better for various reasons -- simulate the heat from sun, don't fail in a potentially harmful way like UTHs do, last longer (?), provide ambient temps while UTHs are only good for hot spots, etc etc, but then I've seen a lot arguing against because BPs are nocturnal anyway so they don't get their heat from the sun. I've seen people advocating for a combo of a UTH and a bulb, RHP, or CHE, and I'm kind of fond of that option, but would it be overkill, especially if I end up going with a smaller habitat first and upgrading later to a larger one as the snake needs more room? Would it still be overkill even in a larger (up to 40g) terrarium? As far as UTH failing concerns, my setup at the start is going to have, at minimum, a thermostat (hopefully with the capability to set temp variations to mimic daytime > nighttime temperature shifts) attached to whichever heating element(s) we use with a probe about 6" above substrate, and we'll have a temp gun to spot check wherever and however often we'd like... eventually I'd like to have a thermometer at the cool end and at the hot spot so I can glance over and be reassured, but since I'll be paranoid for a while anyway and would probably use the temp gun as well as checking the thermometer, might as well just start with that one. Though, I'm open to budgeting for the thermometers to be included from the start if there's a viable reason. Part of the appeal to me about having a UTH and a CHE (which is probably what I'd go with) is if one decides to stop working, I have another heat element already present. I will eventually be buying a backup for each element but probably not within the first couple months of buying the originals.
Hydrometers... do I need one at both hot & cool end? If not, which end, or should it be middle? Where in the tank should it be placed?
Feeding tubs -- I either see them mentioned as necessary or not mentioned at all, so I'm wondering if they're a given? If so, about how large should I be getting for juvenile & adult?
That's all I can think of for now... I know, y'all have barely anything to reply to. :P No, really, thanks if you've actually made it this far in reading, and if you actually take the time to reply (to even just 1 question) you've earned my undying gratitude. Mostly I'm running through potential options for our setup and looking for opinions on whether I'm on the right track and which choices you'd pick and why; if it's not personal pref but not something considered common knowledge (not easy to find via google, but there's a husbandry reason, like snake health or safety), providing citation would be preferred because I like being able to backup individual statements that are presented as fact with my own research. No offense! Just want to make sure I do this the right way if I'm gonna do it.
Hello there, I do have an ball Python but am no where near an expert but i mat be able to help in some small way. Speaking frankly, most that I know of here will probably be speaking of experience rather than stuff you can site. Most everything I've learned, I've learned from here. I'm sure it won't be long before some of the more seasoned ball Python keepers will find this and undoubtedly answer your questions. However, I can tell you some of my opinions.
If this helps at all, here is my BP girl and the second pic is her enclosure setup:
http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q625/DarkDragonWarrior/IMG_20160529_215616_zpseitmgjdx.jpg
http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q625/DarkDragonWarrior/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20160528_084843194_zpst4xfuheu.jpg
I keep my water dish in the middle usually at least partially on to of the UTH(my preffered heat source, bulbs and lights can dry out the air and that can be bad considering BPs need moderate amount of humidity) I have two main hides, one on warm side, one on cool side and a humid hide (in my case, damp paper towel in a waterproof container she can go into) but others also regularly use paper towels or newspapers for substrate. I personally love Aspen as it is easy to see dirty areas and easy to clean up too. My thermostat sensors is on the hot side inside her hot side hide.(get the right temp of where she will be) my humidity gauge is in the center and I have an ambient temp thermometer on both sides(the pic doesn't show those, sorry)
Firstly, it depends just how "high traffic" you mean and the individual snake's personality. I keep my girl in my bedroom and she rarely is stressed my even the busiest of days. However you should take into account that she doesn't scare or stress easily at all. But I would suggest a very low traffic area for acclamation when you first get your new scaly friend(whatever species it is)
As for the bathroom, I would definitely NOT put him/her in there. Constantly changing humidity(as with any husbandry changing) can extremely stressful and unhealthy to the snake. If you are worried about humidity, get a miater bottle and spray the enclosure as needed(and I suggest a humid hide to help with that as well)
For the pets thing, I'm living in a house with four dogs(one being a great Dane) and three cats. At first they will be curious but after a while will calm down. Just take care to never let your snake be close to your dogs(or whatever other animals you may have) I'm not saying they will be aggressive but a frightened snake may strike and startle another animal(which you can't predict if the animal will attack or run, regardless of the size of the snake or dog.)
Plastic, glass, ect. is fine, it comes down to how nice you want it to look and how much you're willing to pay for it. (I have little experience with that so others may have more info for you.
I've had the same enclosure for my girl since she was a juvenile, I believe the time you really need to worry about different sized tanks for them is when you get them as hatchlings since they are so small and easily stressed/scared)
On feeding tubes, I've only heard of using those for hatchlings and sick animals(most breeders will be sure to have the snake feeding on FT rats or mice before selling their hatchlings, and should tell you otherwise, i'd me sure to ask nonetheless). I've never had problem with my girl eating and have never used a feeding tube. (This is variable due to individual differences but still)
Like I said, these are a few things that I've picked up from others here and opinions as well. I hope this gets you on the right track:)
-Your ball python would definitely be more comfortable in the bedroom, but you could try to set it up in your living room and see how it does.
-Once your dogs are used to the snake being around, aside from the odd sniff, they won't care much about the snake. The snake will also not care too much about the dogs. Shouldn't be a problem here.
-Tubs hold heat and humidity better than tanks, 100% without a doubt. Anyone who says different is mistaken or doesn't know how to set one up properly. Both have their pros and cons and it's really up to you as to what you use. I'm personally not a fan of tanks because they're heavy and ever so slightly harder to maintain than tubs, but as you mentioned, you'll get lots of opinions there. Some people love using aquariums with something called a versa top so it's something that may suit you.
-I like smaller enclosures for younger snakes. Some say that you can use the adult enclosure and load it with hides, but that's more for the snake to poop on and more for you to keep clean. I have also experienced more consistent feeding with smaller, properly sized enclosures. They are also easier to maintain proper husbandry in. Similar to the other question though, you'll get differing opinions here so it's important to do what will work for you. As far as the enclosure and how it opens, it's easier to maintain/clean a front opening large terrarium, but a top opening tub is just as easy if not easier. The angle that you approach your snake in the long run should not make a difference, it is important to be slow and deliberate with your movements so your snake doesn't get spooked and this is more important than the angle of approach.
-With water dish placement it is my opinion that they are best kept on the cool end. If you place them on the warm end, those higher temperatures will accelerate any micro-organism growth. Saying that, if you have a stubborn humidity problem, placing the water over or under the heat source can help that, just ensure that you are changing the water more frequently in that case.
-You need a hot spot/basking spot. You can use either a uth, or a uth/overhead delivery combo. What is best would depend on the situation and enclosure type. A uth will heat the air very minimally if at all, but anything that heats the air will dry things out to a certain degree aside from a RHP. No matter what you use (aside from bulbs), the heat source must be controlled with a thermostat or rheostat and it must never be allowed to run "open" or injury/disaster will result.
-Cypress mulch is great. Keep the enclosure simple for the first month at the least. Paper towel and easy to clean hides would be best so that you can monitor the overall health of the snake as well as look for mites.
-Heat sources I covered a little bit above, but simply put, if your ambient temps are good and you just need to give a hot spot, use a UTH or heat tape. If your ambients are cool your first choice should be a RHP-dries out enclosures minimally if at all, followed by a CHE - better than a bulb, and last choice would be a heat bulb - control your airflow or you'll be keeping your ball python like cooked fried chicken at KFC in a warmer with a bulb. Things will dry out.
- Use a temp gun to take temps and a digital hygrometer for humidity, the stick on or dial ones are junk. Be sure to place the hygrometer on the floor of the cage where the snake is because that's where you want to measure it. Placing it somewhere in the middle should work fine.
-Feeding tubs used to be thought of as necessary because people used to think that if you feed in the enclosure, the snake will associate the cage opening with being fed and it'll increase the likelihood of getting bitten. This is completely untrue unless the only reason you open the cage is to feed and for NOTHING else. If you're looking to "condition" your snake to know when it's being handled, look up "tap training" with a hook. It's very easy and works with most species quite well. Another thing that is often proposed would be possible impaction due to substrate ingestion, which is very easy to avoid if you are using prey items that aren't soaking wet. Moving the snake into a separate enclosure to feed increases stress for the snake and reduces the chance of it feeding, especially with a shy species such as a ball python. It is a hassle, and also increases the likelihood that your snake will regurgitate it's food or if you go to move it too early it may still be in feeding mode and could bite you. Snakes shouldn't be handled until about 2 days after taking a meal. The only real reason someone should use a feeding enclosure is if they're co-habbing (which requires a lot of experience to do properly) multiple snakes together.
-My last tip is this...and it can be SO hard for even a seasoned collector/keeper, never mind someone just getting their first snake; do not handle your snake until it has eaten three times in a row in your care. That will show you that it is beginning to feel secure and comfortable in your care, and is ready for a source of stress such as handling without experiencing ill effects.
Why would I make these choices/recommendations? A few years of keeping and breeding multiple species of reptiles (since before online forums! haha) and recognizing their needs, with a little bit of common sense. I therefore won't be citing anything, but feel free to look around and make what you will of the information I provided. No single method works well for everyone, so gather as much information and as many opinions as you reasonably can and figure out what works for you. It has to make sense to you and work for you/your snakes! :)
Referring to my earlier post :
" On feeding tubes, I've only heard of using those for hatchlings and sick animals(most breeders will be sure to have the snake feeding on FT rats or mice before selling their hatchlings, and should tell you otherwise, i'd me sure to ask nonetheless). I've never had problem with my girl eating and have never used a feeding tube. (This is variable due to individual differences but still)"
Instead look at this:
-
-Feeding tubs used to be thought of as necessary because people used to think that if you feed in the enclosure, the snake will associate the cage opening with being fed and it'll increase the likelihood of getting bitten. This is completely untrue unless the only reason you open the cage is to feed and for NOTHING else. If you're looking to "condition" your snake to know when it's being handled, look up "tap training" with a hook. It's very easy and works with most species quite well. Another thing that is often proposed would be possible impaction due to substrate ingestion, which is very easy to avoid if you are using prey items that aren't soaking wet. Moving the snake into a separate enclosure to feed increases stress for the snake and reduces the chance of it feeding, especially with a shy species such as a ball python. It is a hassle, and also increases the likelihood that your snake will regurgitate it's food or if you go to move it too early it may still be in feeding mode and could bite you. Snakes shouldn't be handled until about 2 days after taking a meal. The only real reason someone should use a feeding enclosure is if they're co-habbing (which requires a lot of experience to do properly) multiple snakes together.
I misread and thought you were talking about something else. I apologise XD (for some reason I read "tubes" rather than "tubs" therefore I was thinking about the force feeding. (Which as I mentioned never had to do.
Good luck!
Aaron_S
05-30-16, 10:59 AM
-Your ball python would definitely be more comfortable in the bedroom, but you could try to set it up in your living room and see how it does.
-Once your dogs are used to the snake being around, aside from the odd sniff, they won't care much about the snake. The snake will also not care too much about the dogs. Shouldn't be a problem here.
-Tubs hold heat and humidity better than tanks, 100% without a doubt. Anyone who says different is mistaken or doesn't know how to set one up properly. Both have their pros and cons and it's really up to you as to what you use. I'm personally not a fan of tanks because they're heavy and ever so slightly harder to maintain than tubs, but as you mentioned, you'll get lots of opinions there. Some people love using aquariums with something called a versa top so it's something that may suit you.
-I like smaller enclosures for younger snakes. Some say that you can use the adult enclosure and load it with hides, but that's more for the snake to poop on and more for you to keep clean. I have also experienced more consistent feeding with smaller, properly sized enclosures. They are also easier to maintain proper husbandry in. Similar to the other question though, you'll get differing opinions here so it's important to do what will work for you. As far as the enclosure and how it opens, it's easier to maintain/clean a front opening large terrarium, but a top opening tub is just as easy if not easier. The angle that you approach your snake in the long run should not make a difference, it is important to be slow and deliberate with your movements so your snake doesn't get spooked and this is more important than the angle of approach.
-With water dish placement it is my opinion that they are best kept on the cool end. If you place them on the warm end, those higher temperatures will accelerate any micro-organism growth. Saying that, if you have a stubborn humidity problem, placing the water over or under the heat source can help that, just ensure that you are changing the water more frequently in that case.
-You need a hot spot/basking spot. You can use either a uth, or a uth/overhead delivery combo. What is best would depend on the situation and enclosure type. A uth will heat the air very minimally if at all, but anything that heats the air will dry things out to a certain degree aside from a RHP. No matter what you use (aside from bulbs), the heat source must be controlled with a thermostat or rheostat and it must never be allowed to run "open" or injury/disaster will result.
-Cypress mulch is great. Keep the enclosure simple for the first month at the least. Paper towel and easy to clean hides would be best so that you can monitor the overall health of the snake as well as look for mites.
-Heat sources I covered a little bit above, but simply put, if your ambient temps are good and you just need to give a hot spot, use a UTH or heat tape. If your ambients are cool your first choice should be a RHP-dries out enclosures minimally if at all, followed by a CHE - better than a bulb, and last choice would be a heat bulb - control your airflow or you'll be keeping your ball python like cooked fried chicken at KFC in a warmer with a bulb. Things will dry out.
- Use a temp gun to take temps and a digital hygrometer for humidity, the stick on or dial ones are junk. Be sure to place the hygrometer on the floor of the cage where the snake is because that's where you want to measure it. Placing it somewhere in the middle should work fine.
-Feeding tubs used to be thought of as necessary because people used to think that if you feed in the enclosure, the snake will associate the cage opening with being fed and it'll increase the likelihood of getting bitten. This is completely untrue unless the only reason you open the cage is to feed and for NOTHING else. If you're looking to "condition" your snake to know when it's being handled, look up "tap training" with a hook. It's very easy and works with most species quite well. Another thing that is often proposed would be possible impaction due to substrate ingestion, which is very easy to avoid if you are using prey items that aren't soaking wet. Moving the snake into a separate enclosure to feed increases stress for the snake and reduces the chance of it feeding, especially with a shy species such as a ball python. It is a hassle, and also increases the likelihood that your snake will regurgitate it's food or if you go to move it too early it may still be in feeding mode and could bite you. Snakes shouldn't be handled until about 2 days after taking a meal. The only real reason someone should use a feeding enclosure is if they're co-habbing (which requires a lot of experience to do properly) multiple snakes together.
-My last tip is this...and it can be SO hard for even a seasoned collector/keeper, never mind someone just getting their first snake; do not handle your snake until it has eaten three times in a row in your care. That will show you that it is beginning to feel secure and comfortable in your care, and is ready for a source of stress such as handling without experiencing ill effects.
Why would I make these choices/recommendations? A few years of keeping and breeding multiple species of reptiles (since before online forums! haha) and recognizing their needs, with a little bit of common sense. I therefore won't be citing anything, but feel free to look around and make what you will of the information I provided. No single method works well for everyone, so gather as much information and as many opinions as you reasonably can and figure out what works for you. It has to make sense to you and work for you/your snakes! :)
I taught this man everything he knows since he was knee-high to a grasshopper!
Okay that isn't completely true but I do endorse this message (because it's the lazy way of giving advice) as an avid ball python breeder.
Albert Clark
05-30-16, 12:48 PM
@ Pride: Well it looks like you have done quite a bit of research, congrats. Likewise you've received top experienced information up to this point as well. Remember, your ideas for your set up are important and ball pythons are very forgiving. The main thing is to have the basic husbandry requirements down so that it becomes second nature. Temperatures, humidity and their regulation will be the most important aspects. Along with the cleanliness of your enclosure for the health and safety of your ball python. Good luck.
Thanks so so much to everybody who replied!!
A few notes -- I spoke to a friend who keeps snakes and she recommended Animal Plastics or Vision cages, and the more I read about both the more I like the sound of them. Any experiences with them? Are they easier to keep heat & humidity in than glass and any easier or harder to keep heat & humidity in than a standard tub? And what size would you recommend?
I was gravitating toward a CHE as I mentioned, but she warned me against them due to humidity concerns but for the main reason that (according to her) they can't be controlled by any sort of thermostat, only a dimmer. However, I've seen quite a few accounts of people using pulse/proportional stats with CHEs. Can anybody give me firsthand info on whether ceramic heat emitters can or can't be properly hooked up to a pulse/proportional thermometer?
To be quite frank I think I'd prefer the aesthetic look of a RHP to a CHE, plus same friend also said that radiant heat panels don't dry out the enclosure like CHEs do, so with your account being the same I may be more inclined to use a RHP since it'll make humidity easier to manage. I don't mind putting effort in, but I'd rather it be easier so my snake doesn't have to deal with fluctuations if I start struggling to keep humidity at the right level.
(But for the sake of being a well-informed keeper, I wanted to ask about the CHEs, and also ask whether full cages can be bought for them? I'm browsing several different supply sites and amazon and only finding wire fixtures with open bottoms meant to sit on top of the cage, whereas I'd probably mount inside, especially so if I get one of the AP or Vision cages. If that's something I'd have to make myself it'll probably influence my decision even more)
Also, just wanting to confirm the information I've found in various places -- good temp range is between 78-82 for cool end and somewhere between 90-95 for the hot spot? And humidity somewhere between 50-60%? The first two things I'm going to buy are a temp gun and a hygrometer so I can measure the ambient temp and humidity levels down here and get an idea of where we're at so I can get the right heat supply.
Quick question -- this probably seems so common sense too but I can't figure out how to determine hide size based on the size of my snake! What size do y'all use for juveniles, adults, etc?
Okay, major question time. My friend specifically told me that she only feeds once every 2 to 3 months, that both of her snakes are adults who are maintaining their weight at that frequency. She said that a herpetologist she's friends with one day sat down and explained to her the biological process involved in a snake digesting, which includes the organs swelling, and that it takes about 2 weeks for the swelling to come back down and over their lifetime it ends up reducing their lifespan. I know everybody here probably feeds their snakes every week or two so you're all going to recommend that, but has anybody even heard of what she's talking about? I don't want to disregard the excellent advice y'all are giving me, because you're all obviously really knowledgeable and you've helped a ton, but I consider her (and the herpetologist, who I've seen around in various communities) valuable sources of knowledge as well, so I'm sort of stymied with which advice to take if that makes sense?
Otherwise, thanks so much for the replies and the advice! I've definitely taken everything down and it's given me a much better idea of what I'm going to do. I was actually worried my post was too much and that nobody would want to take the time to read through and reply so I really appreciate that y'all did.
Aaron_S
06-01-16, 12:51 PM
.....
Okay, major question time. My friend specifically told me that she only feeds once every 2 to 3 months, that both of her snakes are adults who are maintaining their weight at that frequency. She said that a herpetologist she's friends with one day sat down and explained to her the biological process involved in a snake digesting, which includes the organs swelling, and that it takes about 2 weeks for the swelling to come back down and over their lifetime it ends up reducing their lifespan. I know everybody here probably feeds their snakes every week or two so you're all going to recommend that, but has anybody even heard of what she's talking about? I don't want to disregard the excellent advice y'all are giving me, because you're all obviously really knowledgeable and you've helped a ton, but I consider her (and the herpetologist, who I've seen around in various communities) valuable sources of knowledge as well, so I'm sort of stymied with which advice to take if that makes sense?....
Someone else will answer the other questions (and I'll put my endorsement on it. Worth a million opinions!)
As for the major question I can say it isn't the first time I've heard of it. However, I've never had any research shown to me or any hard facts, just "some herpetologist who said this".
I'm not dismissing it in the least but I want more information before I can give form an appropriate opinion. In my mind it depends on the species, prey size and frequency.
With ball pythons they will go into rodent dens and eat the entire den. They may not know when the next meal is coming so ball pythons will eat again if a rodent walks by or some other type of prey item. Snakes in general are opportunistic feeders.
I personally prefer feed them smaller prey items 10-15% of the snakes total body weight (a little higher for babies).
I wouldn't dare feed any babies or juveniles on a 2 to 3 month schedule no matter the size of the prey.
eminart
06-01-16, 01:12 PM
-Tubs hold heat and humidity better than tanks, 100% without a doubt.
Everyone says this, but it's just not true. Glass is impermeable. Nothing can hold humidity better than that. Now, if you put a full screen top on then yes, humidity will escape. The same thing will happen in a tub if you cut out the whole top. But, it's easy to cover a screen top, or to use another type of lid altogether. As far as heat, they'll be very comparable on that as well, if they both have the same amount of ventilation, and are sitting on the same type of stand/rack.
What happens is people drill a few holes in a tub which amount to maybe 3 square inches of ventilation total, and then compare that with a glass tank with a wide open screen top which may have 36 square inches of ventilation.
Some people might point out that the holes in a tub aren't at the top. But, unless your snake is hanging out in the 2 inches of space above the holes in the tub, then that's irrelevant.
All that said, tubs are easy, cheap, and work great. But, glass tanks work fine, especially if you get one with doors on the front.
Albert Clark
06-01-16, 01:19 PM
A small to medium rat every two weeks is a reasonable feeding schedule for a adult ball python. Unless it is a female who is building and breeding who should require more nutrition at a given time. Overfeeding is problematic but the animal needs a certain amount of protective nutrition to stay healthy.
macandchz
06-01-16, 01:28 PM
just had to mention this to ddw- macandchz looks like the twin of your albino ball!
macandchz
06-01-16, 01:33 PM
dear pride-if you check out the gallery heading#DSC0311- you can see my set-up for my albino ball.
Everyone says this, but it's just not true. Glass is impermeable. Nothing can hold humidity better than that. Now, if you put a full screen top on then yes, humidity will escape. The same thing will happen in a tub if you cut out the whole top. But, it's easy to cover a screen top, or to use another type of lid altogether. As far as heat, they'll be very comparable on that as well, if they both have the same amount of ventilation, and are sitting on the same type of stand/rack.
What happens is people drill a few holes in a tub which amount to maybe 3 square inches of ventilation total, and then compare that with a glass tank with a wide open screen top which may have 36 square inches of ventilation.
Some people might point out that the holes in a tub aren't at the top. But, unless your snake is hanging out in the 2 inches of space above the holes in the tub, then that's irrelevant.
All that said, tubs are easy, cheap, and work great. But, glass tanks work fine, especially if you get one with doors on the front.
Ok...i'll modify my statement...standard tanks do not hold humidity or heat well. Specialty tanks or ones with restricted ventilation do. Perhaps that's more accurate. Whether it's cost effective or time effective to pay for or do these specialties/modifications is very debatable when comparing to tubs. Saying that...I have never heard of someone calling a front opening glass enclosure a "tank" before, rather an enclosure or cage...perhaps that's different down south and the term "tank" is much more widely used there. I also mentioned that a lot of people use the versa style tops with tanks successfully, but I suppose you missed that, Em. Gonna stick to my original statement in comparing the two. :)
Thanks so so much to everybody who replied!!
A few notes -- I spoke to a friend who keeps snakes and she recommended Animal Plastics or Vision cages, and the more I read about both the more I like the sound of them. Any experiences with them? Are they easier to keep heat & humidity in than glass and any easier or harder to keep heat & humidity in than a standard tub? And what size would you recommend?
Animal Plastics and Vision both make excellent cages. Price point, and aesthetics should be the main factors between the two for your final choice. A 2.5'x2'x1' or 3'x2'x1' (length x width x height) cage would be ample for a ball python as an adult. Half that size would suffice for a yearling or young adult. Something 1'x6"x6" (roughly) would be big enough for a hatchling. You can definitely play with those sizes a bit to suit you, though.
I was gravitating toward a CHE as I mentioned, but she warned me against them due to humidity concerns but for the main reason that (according to her) they can't be controlled by any sort of thermostat, only a dimmer. However, I've seen quite a few accounts of people using pulse/proportional stats with CHEs. Can anybody give me firsthand info on whether ceramic heat emitters can or can't be properly hooked up to a pulse/proportional thermometer?
To be quite frank I think I'd prefer the aesthetic look of a RHP to a CHE, plus same friend also said that radiant heat panels don't dry out the enclosure like CHEs do, so with your account being the same I may be more inclined to use a RHP since it'll make humidity easier to manage. I don't mind putting effort in, but I'd rather it be easier so my snake doesn't have to deal with fluctuations if I start struggling to keep humidity at the right level. (But for the sake of being a well-informed keeper, I wanted to ask about the CHEs, and also ask whether full cages can be bought for them? I'm browsing several different supply sites and amazon and only finding wire fixtures with open bottoms meant to sit on top of the cage, whereas I'd probably mount inside, especially so if I get one of the AP or Vision cages. If that's something I'd have to make myself it'll probably influence my decision even more)
Radiant heat panels are definitely the way to go. They are initially much more expensive but they won't need to be replaced for a LONG time. They have the sleekest appearance and would give you the least amount of humidity complications. CHE can be hooked up to a rheostat or proportional thermostat. As far as buying a full cage for them, there are some things you could buy from a hardware store, but I haven't looked into it much myself as I don't use this method of heating.
Also, just wanting to confirm the information I've found in various places -- good temp range is between 78-82 for cool end and somewhere between 90-95 for the hot spot? And humidity somewhere between 50-60%? The first two things I'm going to buy are a temp gun and a hygrometer so I can measure the ambient temp and humidity levels down here and get an idea of where we're at so I can get the right heat supply.
That is correct.
Quick question -- this probably seems so common sense too but I can't figure out how to determine hide size based on the size of my snake! What size do y'all use for juveniles, adults, etc?
The hide should barely fit your snake. They like tight spaces. Knowing the size of the snake will allow us to help you with that, but you could always buy some moss to help fill up a larger hide to make it feel tighter for the snake. Keep in mind that tall hides aren't the goal.
Okay, major question time. My friend specifically told me that she only feeds once every 2 to 3 months, that both of her snakes are adults who are maintaining their weight at that frequency. She said that a herpetologist she's friends with one day sat down and explained to her the biological process involved in a snake digesting, which includes the organs swelling, and that it takes about 2 weeks for the swelling to come back down and over their lifetime it ends up reducing their lifespan. I know everybody here probably feeds their snakes every week or two so you're all going to recommend that, but has anybody even heard of what she's talking about? I don't want to disregard the excellent advice y'all are giving me, because you're all obviously really knowledgeable and you've helped a ton, but I consider her (and the herpetologist, who I've seen around in various communities) valuable sources of knowledge as well, so I'm sort of stymied with which advice to take if that makes sense?
From my understanding, when a python eats (all snakes actually, I think), all of it's organs will swell, most noticeably the heart in order to increase blood flow. This happens in order to aid digestive/metabolic processes and from it subsides once digestion is complete. I don't know if it affects their life span unless someone were to overfeed their snake and fatty deposits were to be built up to harmful levels which may "trick" the systems causing the organs to remain enlarged due to trying to metabolize the excess fat, but it otherwise doesn't make sense to me. With all due respect to your friend and their herpetologist friend, I disagree with that feeding schedule and it's not something I would ever implement with my animals. I could see every 3 weeks or maybe even once a month with a large food item being offered, but I can't be on board with what your friend is doing. Just doesn't feel right to me.
I just want to thank everybody again for their advice on this, I'm getting ready to make final decisions and all the knowledge y'all have spared has made it so much easier to narrow down what sort of enclosure, heating element, etc I'm going to use. It may be a few months until I actually acquire a snake (want to make sure I'm 100% set up and ready to go beforehand, including figuring out where I'm going to get mice/rats for feeding purposes) but when I get him I'll definitely be posting an update, and I'll probably post one with the entire setup beforehand for any further advice/crit/suggestions/etc!
Sounds good. We all love to help, and we also love seeing people who actually do their own research so you are certainly going to get a lot of assistance here. :)
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