Increased Frequency vs Increased Size

[AndrewM1217]

So my Spotted Python will be two years old in September, and right now he's kind of in an awkward stage as far as prey items goes. One adult mouse doesn't leave much of a bump in his stomach, but most XL Adult mice are at least 1.5x the girth of his largest section. So I was thinking, should I be feeding him perhaps one adult mouse and then an additional fuzzy/hopper? Or maybe feed him an adult mouse every 5-6 days instead of every 7-10 days until he's large enough to handle XL mice. I know spotted pythons aren't large snakes at all but I feel like he's still got a little bit of growing to do from looking at pics of other adult male spotted pythons. I might post a pic or two once I'm home for some visual input.

EDIT: Here's a picture. Tank size is 20gal Long style. He's maybe 34"-36" long if I had to guess but he still looks pretty thin compared to other pictures/YouTube videos of spotteds.

http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac93/BassTortoise/IMG_3132.jpg

[trailblazer295]

Have you tried a rat pup or wean? It might bridge the gap between mice and XL mouse.

[SWDK]

Have you tried a rat pup or wean? It might bridge the gap between mice and XL mouse.

And more nutritious than mice.

[EL Ziggy]

I think your snake can handle an XL mouse. I've fed XL mice to carpets that were younger and smaller than your spotted. If you don't want to try an XL mouse just yet you can go with your other options of offering a second prey item or trying an appropriately sized rat. I probably wouldn't increase the feeding frequency. Every 7-10 days sounds about right.

[bigsnakegirl785]

And more nutritious than mice.

An adult mouse is more nutritious than a rat pup. Once rats are weaned, that changes.

I would advise one single appropriately-sized meal every 1-2 weeks at your snakes' age, Andrew, I move most of my snakes to every 14 days when they turn a year, especially my boids. Multiple prey items is over-feeding, if you don't have to do it, don't do it. I do not believe this is a case where it's necessary, even if the meals are slightly undersized they'll be fine. It's healthier to slightly underfeed than slightly overfeed.

[EL Ziggy]

@ BSG- how is feeding multiple prey items overfeeding? I do this quite often especially when transitioning between prey sizes. Are two pinks worse than one fuzzy. Are two smalls worse than a medium? I don't understand.

[bigsnakegirl785]

@ BSG- how is feeding multiple prey items overfeeding? I do this quite often especially when transitioning between prey sizes. Are two pinks worse than one fuzzy. Are two smalls worse than a medium? I don't understand.

Two prey items often is often bigger in size and/or heavier than one single prey item. Two small rats is a lot more food than a single medium rat. Going off of Big Cheese's weights (they have a good middle ground for rodent weights), smalls are 50-89 grams and mediums are 90-140 grams. 2 smalls would be 100-178 grams. So the size of mid- to large-sized mediums and really small large rats. If you're transitioning to a new size, this isn't a good method. You'd want to start out at the lower end of the next size's weight.

It also increases the amount of fur to meat/bone ratio. Two small rats has more fur than one medium, proportionately. Some say this increases chances of impaction, but I'm really doubtful of that. Most it should do is help clump poo. Two pinks would be lighter in weight than one fuzzy, and in species that have delicate digestion, the added fat in the milk bellies is not good.

I've noticed that my retic grew a ton more rapidly on multiple prey items than just one, even if that one prey item was heavier than the two combined, or the two prey items were only slightly heavier. She grew 1.5' within 2-3 months eating two mediums every other week as opposed to the rabbits 20%+ of her weight every 2 weeks she's getting now. The weight was roughly equal to a large rat, but produced more growth. She hasn't grown a noticeable amount since I went back to a single prey item, even though I'm still feeding 15-20% (and more in the case of the rabbits). Multiple prey items also produce better weight gain in my bp than a single prey item.

So, imo, going a bit undersized with meals until the snake is big enough for the next size is better than doubling-up prey items. I personally only use it with my bp to help him gain weight after a fast, and I used it with my retic because she hadn't grown an inch in 2 months and I didn't have the bigger size on hand. I probably would opt not to do so if I had the choice again, however, and choose to keep to the smaller prey items longer. Oh yeah, and my eastern garter because he cannot physically swallow a mouse fuzzy or rat pink and one mouse pink isn't enough food. My checkered is eating a single rat pink now that they're not an over-sized meal for him.

[bigsnakegirl785]

As long as the bigger prey size isn't too large, you could even offer the larger prey item every other or every second feeding instead. Feeding frequency will depend on species, but I'll go generic here. Say the python is currently eating rat pups and it's almost ready to be moved onto weaned rats (key word here is almost), feed it the normal rat pup and then 7 days later offer a weaned rat. Then, 2-3 weeks after you feed the weaned rat, offer another rat pup and wait 7 days to either feed another rat pup or a weaned rat. Repeat and rinse until the weaned rats are leaving a smaller bulge.

[EL Ziggy]

Interesting methodology BSG. I like seeing the different ways keepers do things. From husbandry to housing to feeding. I'm glad there are multiple ways to achieve successful results. I don't overfeed my snakes but I do feed them more liberally than some, especially in their first two years. As I stated earlier I feed my snakes 2 prey items quite often. I also use the 10-20% of body weight feeding formula. IMO it doesn't matter what I feed them as long as their meals fall within that range. For example, my 500g carpet eats 50-80g of food approximately every 7 days. Sometimes he gets a 60g small rat. The next feeding he may get a 30g asf and a 35g chick. My 250g carpet will eat a 40g rat weaner one week and a rat pup and a mouse the next week. My 2500g bull snake may eat a 220g large rat one week and two weeks later she may get a medium rat and a chick. My 1500g bull snake eats a chick and a small/medium rat every 10-14 days. He often refuses rats if he doesn't have a chick first. My kings are 650g and 750g each. They don't like rats so they eat 1-2 jumbo mice or a mouse and/or a chick every 10-14 days. I think these are all acceptable meals. My point is that I mix and match prey items, and feed multiple prey items, for all of my snakes quite often and so far they're all healthy and growing well. Different strokes for different folks :).

[zactay22]

It's funny how we try to control things to a perfect schedule/meal size. Yet snakes in the wild mange on their own. You see the same species vary in size just because one snake ate more than another. Like a few weeks ago they found that 26 foot retic in Malaysia. I'm sure it was very old. Overall I find the "perfect size prey rule" kind of bs. Obviously there is prey that is way too big for a shorter schedule.

[Tiny Boidae]

It's funny how we try to control things to a perfect schedule/meal size. Yet snakes in the wild mange on their own. You see the same species vary in size just because one snake ate more than another. Like a few weeks ago they found that 26 foot retic in Malaysia. I'm sure it was very old. Overall I find the "perfect size prey rule" kind of bs. Obviously there is prey that is way too big for a shorter schedule.

I don't have much to say about this topic, but I completely disagree with you. Size is not always an indicator of an animal's health, and if anything the big "world record" contenders out there are like that because there is some abnormality biologically.

Also, to feed large prey very often is a method that falls flat on its face when arguing for the health of the animal. Ever heard of power-feeding? This was an unethical practice of feeding large meals, one after another, often. It resulted in a large, mature animal father quickly, but these animals had their lifespans cut drastically.

So the size and frequency of prey matters a little more than that.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Interesting methodology BSG. I like seeing the different ways keepers do things. From husbandry to housing to feeding. I'm glad there are multiple ways to achieve successful results. I don't overfeed my snakes but I do feed them more liberally than some, especially in their first two years. As I stated earlier I feed my snakes 2 prey items quite often. I also use the 10-20% of body weight feeding formula. IMO it doesn't matter what I feed them as long as their meals fall within that range. For example, my 500g carpet eats 50-80g of food approximately every 7 days. Sometimes he gets a 60g small rat. The next feeding he may get a 30g asf and a 35g chick. My 250g carpet will eat a 40g rat weaner one week and a rat pup and a mouse the next week. My 2500g bull snake may eat a 220g large rat one week and two weeks later she may get a medium rat and a chick. My 1500g bull snake eats a chick and a small/medium rat every 10-14 days. He often refuses rats if he doesn't have a chick first. My kings are 650g and 750g each. They don't like rats so they eat 1-2 jumbo mice or a mouse and/or a chick every 10-14 days. I think these are all acceptable meals. My point is that I mix and match prey items, and feed multiple prey items, for all of my snakes quite often and so far they're all healthy and growing well. Different strokes for different folks :).

Yeah, I'm a conservative feeder, which is where my advice above is coming from. Imo, 10-20% is too much food for the vast majority of snakes, so I don't use it with any of my snakes(except the retic) and don't advise it. The retic stays stick-thin even with the amount of food I give her, it's insane, but I figure she needs it so I give it to her. haha Everyone else gets food that barely leaves a noticeable lump every 7-14 days, depending on age and species, whether boa, python, or colubrid. My boa constrictors will start out on 14 days from birth, when I breed them they'll get 2-3 meals 7 days but then from there on until they're 3 years old they'll get fed every 14, I feed them the most conservatively. I'll feed any non-retic pythons in the same manner as I do my boas, barely a lump every 7 days max. They grow slower but stay leaner in this way, they won't be any smaller than another snake fed more liberally.

It's funny how we try to control things to a perfect schedule/meal size. Yet snakes in the wild mange on their own. You see the same species vary in size just because one snake ate more than another. Like a few weeks ago they found that 26 foot retic in Malaysia. I'm sure it was very old. Overall I find the "perfect size prey rule" kind of bs. Obviously there is prey that is way too big for a shorter schedule.

I personally control my snakes' food intake because even with how little I feed them (compared to the majority of keepers), they are still getting several times the amount of food they need and more than they'd ever get in the wild.

I do however know about them being able to take different sized prey, and I know they take much much much larger than what I give them. But for the ease of my mind, I feed smaller prey less often than trying to keep up with "oh my boa/python at this jumbo rat this week I'll give it 3 months and then give it a small rat, or I'll feed my boa a jumbo rat 3 times a year, etc etc." I can keep up with a set schedule much better than with a wildly varied diet of different prey sizes, and thus provide better care for my snakes.

But, that is why I'm not too worried about feeding over-sized prey once or twice a year, I just space it out. Unless they've got issues that prevent them from being able to, like my Picasso stripe (he regurges very easily so meals have to stay extra extra small).

But yeah, generally faster-growing, fat snakes live the least amount of time. Boas that are fed oversized meals all the time, that get big quick, they either die by the time they turn 6, or won't even live to see their 20th birthday. I've seen plenty of retics barely make it to their 20's, or half that, and die while being visibly morbidly obese (*cough cough* Fluffy *cough cough*). Fluffy wasn't even 20. How sad is that? These guys are supposed to have an average lifespan of 20-30+ years. I've had several vets tell me the #1 disease that kills snakes (and really reptiles in general) is fatty liver disease.

Long story short: this is why I personally believe less food is better and I view the conventional feeding methods as over-feeding and borderline power-feeding.