A Different Ethics Question

[Minkness]

Hey all. So I know we have covered the ethics of feeding before. But this time I am looking into your personal moral opinion on a different matter.

All the times I'm on craigslist there are constantly free animals. From puppies and kittens, to mice, rats, girbles, guinea pigs, and birds. Usually these animals are someones pet and of course they don't want anything 'bad' happening. But if you were down on your luck, just out of feeders, or just wanted to save a buck, would you reach out to those people to obtain their free small animals as a food source for your reptiles?

I only ask because just about any time there is a free pet ad, someone else goes behind it and warns the mass public not to give their animals away for free as it means they will be used as snake food, or otherwise, purposfully anused (like free dogs/cats being bait animals ect).

Just curious since, while I don't think I could do it personally, I don't see it as the worst thing that could happen to a rat whose owner no longer wants them. =/

[eminart]

I wouldn't do it unless the person knew my intent and were ok with it. I wouldn't want someone's snake eating the guinea pigs my daughter had to rehome.

[Jim Smith]

I'm with eminart on this one. I would not get any animals from Craig's list whether they are listed for free or otherwise, without the seller know that I intended to use the animal as a food item for one of my reptiles. That includes rats and mice. For large to medium sized prey items, I really believe that the local rabbit breeders (especially those who show their animals) would be willing to sell freshly killed or frozen rabbits/bunnies since they have to cull their animals if they have any defects that prevent them from being shown.

[macandchz]

i wouldn't do it. i really don't think i could do it with a clear conscience.

[FWK]

Generally no, but not due to ethics. A feeder is a feeder. But I do not know how those free animals have been cared for, fed, medicated, etc. Now, as Jim brought up, if I ran across a breeder who produced some unwanted offspring that would normally be given away or culled, and they had not been medicated, fed clean food (if fed at all), not been exposed to sources of parasites (no free range chickens, etc.), etc., then I might consider it. Maybe if a friend had an unexpected litter and didn't have a problem with feeding them off. But I will not be trolling Craigslist for free feeders. On the flip side, it is unquestionably unethical and irresponsible to give animals away free to random strangers having no idea what they will be used for or how they will be treated. Those people posting free animals are probably not the kind of people I want to meet anyway.

[Charis]

I'm with eminart and Jim on this one. It's not unethical if you have no money, to go looking through free ads/make one yourself asking for free feeders. Though like FWK mentions, the free feeders might not be the best thing you can feed to your snakes but if it's that or they starve ... Shrug. Although if it comes to that, you should probably consider finding new homes for your animals yourself ...

However, it is unethical, in my opinion, to implicitly imply in any way that they are going to a good home to the person rehoming them. They should be aware of and fine with what you intend to use them for.

One of my friends, that breeds corn snakes, had something like that happen to her. A guy contacted her, was charming and had a nice, feel good story about how his son needed a large number of corn snakes for a project, I don't remember the details he used now. And so he bought 12 of her babies, actually talking her out of a personal holdback as well. He paid for them in this case but less than they were individually worth.
Several weeks later, she came across a post from this guy on social media with pictures of one of those snakes being eaten (can't remember if it was a king or a cobra?) by another snake. The post discussing feeding another snake was also rather callous and cruelly worded. He had already fed off most of the snakes she sold him by that point. As one can imagine, she was beyond hurt by that whole thing.

Not only is it a potentially really awful thing to do to the person giving the animal away, even if they are stupid enough to not ask for money, it is potentially very damaging to the herp keeping community as a whole, because I can guarantee that pretty much everyone afraid of snakes/haters are going to see it as unethical and exactly the kind of thing done by the type of people that keep snakes, as evidenced by that oft repeated advice that is also posted on ad sites about free animals.

[Minkness]

Hmmm...Now I'm curious how it even circulates that's what happens since it seems (so far anyway) that is not something 'we' do.

I couldn't do ot myself for many of the same reasons. I've had pet rats and know the attachment people have and wkuld feel terrible about it, then there is the danger of what may potentially be wrong with it as a feeder, and then there's also the fact I don't feed live and just don't have the heart to pre-kill anyway....

[Charis]

I wonder this too. I'm sure it happens sometimes but I don't think it's as big an issue as it's made out to be. Something like an urban legend I guess.

Personally, I'm more worried about animal fighting rings and sicko abusers. There have been several stories about those recently around here. Seems like every few years we also get a fighting ring/sicko group going the rounds of parts of the state. Lots of cats and dogs go missing and then dump sites found, usually with only a fraction of the missing found at the sites. Some of the animals have damage consistent with fight practices but others, just seemed to have been killed randomly, more for fun than with any other purpose, often with poached wildlife.
Sucks, because a large number of the agencies/authorities that would be in charge of investigating, don't seem to care.

[AlexCrazy]

Like most of you a would not do it with out the owners consent and I don't know what that little critter has been thru or eaten..
But I did see a story were a man got kittens from that list and gave them to his.. i think python..
:(
I would like it more if those people would take their sadly unwanted pets to a shelter or something.. I love fuzzy animals to.. and owners like that usually give them away anywhere.. or dump them.. are bad for any animals well being

[pet_snake_78]

I wouldn't do that with someone's pet, no. Seems unethical, although not as bad as animal rights activists who get free reptiles and turn them loose to create a buzz, it's still just not right. The only thing I've done is fed off some finch eggs via a don't ask don't tell policy but they were going to throw them in the trash so I probably could have just as well said I was going to feed them off.

[EL Ziggy]

I wouldn't do it either.

[RAD House]

I think it goes with out saying that you are not a good person if you purposely deceive people to get their pets from them. I think the real ethical problem lies on the people rehoming their pets. If they were that concerned just a little more investigation into the situation their "beloved" pet would be going into would go a long way. I very rarely see free pets here but people who ask a rehoming fee to make sure they are going to a good home. Wouldn't a simple interview and home check be more effective? I also love the reasons why these folks come up why their poor animal must be rehomed. Now I understand there are some extenuating circumstances where rehoming is the last option, but in general this not the case.

[Zelg]

Sounds like a pretty low thing to do....To take someone elses pet to feed your own. Regardless if its a snake or anything else. Theres feeders out there....get feeders. These people are looking for good homes for their pets that they can no longer care for. I find it rather deplorable to feed someones pet to your snake, regardless if they're giving it away for free or charging money for it. Its a disgusting thought.

The reasons for their need to rehome an animal plays no part in it for me. If they cant care for it and want it gone, great. Let someone else take the pet as their own pet. I'd never feel ok with even trying to convince someone to let me take their pet as snake food let alone fully deceiving them into the transaction.

[pet_snake_78]

Zelg, I must agree, that level of deception is intolerable.

[serpentgirl123]

Sounds like a pretty low thing to do....To take someone elses pet to feed your own. Regardless if its a snake or anything else. Theres feeders out there....get feeders. These people are looking for good homes for their pets that they can no longer care for. I find it rather deplorable to feed someones pet to your snake, regardless if they're giving it away for free or charging money for it. Its a disgusting thought.

The reasons for their need to rehome an animal plays no part in it for me. If they cant care for it and want it gone, great. Let someone else take the pet as their own pet. I'd never feel ok with even trying to convince someone to let me take their pet as snake food let alone fully deceiving them into the transaction.


Exactly Zelg! I feel the same way. And I personally feel that if I am in such a rough patch that I can no longer provide a steady diet of adequate food/feeders for my snakes, I would be looking to rehome them. I couldn't consciously justify to myself into deceiving someone out of a pet of theirs for a 1-time feeder, regardless if it is "free" or not.

It almost feels (at least to me) that if I were to feed someone's pet to my own (especially under false pretenses), I would be basically saying that my pets' life is "worth" more than someone else's pets' life (even if that pet was someone's rat); and I personally don't hold to that. There are feeder rodents/animals out there for a reason.

A 1-time or even 2-4 weeks+ period of not being able to feed them until I got some funds to get proper feeders or find new homes, isn't going to kill them. Even more so if they have been properly cared for before--these animals were built to survive.

Also, as someone mentioned, the idea of feeding an animal whose background I don't know about, doesn't make me want to do it. I could potential bring harm my snakes' way as well. Same reason I personally don't catch the few house mice I have had to feed to my snakes. But that is just me.

[sirtalis]

I think for the first time I'm with the General majority :laugh: I personally am fine with those animals mentioned being used as a feeder, but when someone is asking it to go to a good home and it ends up dead :suspicious: not sure if I'd feel to good about myself about that. Also a snake or large lizard can go a few weeks without a meal so even if you needed $5 for a rat then I think it would be very easy to set aside a few bucks per week to be able to buy that rat. I mean people spend their money on the most worthless junk, Yesterday I spent $1.89 on bottled water but if I had set that aside I could have bought a mouse for my timor.

[sirtalis]

Hmmm...Now I'm curious how it even circulates that's what happens since it seems (so far anyway) that is not something 'we' do.

I couldn't do ot myself for many of the same reasons. I've had pet rats and know the attachment people have and wkuld feel terrible about it, then there is the danger of what may potentially be wrong with it as a feeder, and then there's also the fact I don't feed live and just don't have the heart to pre-kill anyway....

Well I think the the problem is that every time one person does something messed up it reflects on the entire community. One example (this is a bit of a stretch) was the Columbian shooting, after the shooting took place a sort of "goth" phobia/scare occurred and for a while the majority of people powered by the media of course thought that all alternative people were mass killers, planning bombing or shootings etc. I think the media has a great deal of influence also, I mean a news story about some sick-o feeding kittens to his boa or python can create quite a stir and draw a ton of viewers. I mean who would actually watch a news story about a normal citizen who responsibly keeps their reptiles. Just my $0.02

[Petsnakes]

I wouldn't, on an ethical and responsible level.

You bought the snake, you buy the food.

A mouse, rat, rabbit isn't that expensive.

Bye for now,

Jim

[Zelg]

I think for the first time I'm with the General majority :laugh: I personally am fine with those animals mentioned being used as a feeder, but when someone is asking it to go to a good home and it ends up dead :suspicious: not sure if I'd feel to good about myself about that. Also a snake or large lizard can go a few weeks without a meal so even if you needed $5 for a rat then I think it would be very easy to set aside a few bucks per week to be able to buy that rat. I mean people spend their money on the most worthless junk, Yesterday I spent $1.89 on bottled water but if I had set that aside I could have bought a mouse for my timor.

Agree 100% if you cant afford a few bucks per month to feed an animal then you should not have that animal. Far too many selfish people out there. Like you said, its literallly anywhere from a dollar to 5 dollars every two weeks to feed a snake.

[D Grade]

I am against it, with or without sellers permission. Heck if the seller is ok with it, the animal needs to go to a better home anyways. There are millions upon millions of animals bred and born every year strictly for feeding purposes. Not only are you killing an animal that was not intended to be a feeder, but you are wasting resources that are intended to be feeders. As mentioned previously, if you can't afford feeders then you need to downsize or sell your collection.

I've been seeing way too many things being fed to snakes live that shouldn't be on youtube lately. Lets not give people who know nothing about this hobby more firepower against it.

[jpsteele80]

Guess i'm the only one with a different view here, if i was down and out on food and someone was giving away free rats and rabbits it wouldn't think twice about it, People giving animals away like that have to know in the back of there mind that the possibility that it may end up as a feeder is possible. if they asked me if it was a feeder i would tell them and they could make the decision to give them to me or not, if they didn't ask i'm going on the don't ask don't tell policy.

[Pogie]

No, I would NEVER do that.

[D Grade]

Guess i'm the only one with a different view here, if i was down and out on food and someone was giving away free rats and rabbits it wouldn't think twice about it, People giving animals away like that have to know in the back of there mind that the possibility that it may end up as a feeder is possible. if they asked me if it was a feeder i would tell them and they could make the decision to give them to me or not, if they didn't ask i'm going on the don't ask don't tell policy.

I don't agree with that at all, your intent should be given at time of interest in purchasing the animal/'s. I think honesty is the best policy on this subject.