New baby ribbon

[Doug 351]

Out at my pond the other day, I saw about an inch and a half of tail slithering into the rocks and vegetation and thought it was possibly a ribbon....I went after it digging in the vegetation and moving rocks but never coming across anything.

The next day , while pulling weeds I spotted him trying to make his way back to the pond...(very quickly, lol) but he was next to a stone wall on a stone path so...he was limited in where he could go. Even though he was weaving through a pile of pulled weeds, I managed to grab it.

I think it's red-striped ribbon. It's a little baby with a big attitude as he likes to strike and try his best to chew on my fingers! !!

It's not the best pic...but the little circle under him is a quarter for scale.

[Albert Clark]

Nice find! T.sauritus is a very nervous and flighty species that dont take kindly to handling. Especially after being born free and living free. They need a few hides to feel secure. They also are listed as endangered in some states and or threatened.

[Doug 351]

Nice find! T.sauritus is a very nervous and flighty species that dont take kindly to handling. Especially after being born free and living free. They need a few hides to feel secure. They also are listed as endangered in some states and or threatened.

Yeah...I haven't handled him too much ...and he did spend the night and half a day in that critter keeper empty....Now he has a rock, substrate, a water bowl, and a hide, and he seems much calmer. Plus his enclosure is bigger...now I've got to figure out how to feed him.

I guess I'll start with tadpoles...(it's just they are so tiny....even for him)...maybe a small mosquito fish to see if he'll take it as well. Hopefully, he'll take to eating fish. I mean, the pond is full of tadpoles right now, but they are tiny toadpoles! Soon there will be some baby toads....but I like baby toads!!!!!

If I can get him on fish...as he gets bigger I can just get them from PetSmart..and when he gets bigger maybe even switch to a rodent diet.

[Albert Clark]

Cool but i would steer clear of the tadpoles and frogs bc of the parasite loads. Even though he is already filled with parasites as are most wild snakes. You can scent his food with fish live fish, (guppies or minnows) or even fresh fish. The best nutrition will be getting him on a rodent based diet which can also be scented with fish. T. sauritus love frogs and fish. Cut up nightcrawler is another feeding option. Even f/t smelt is a good safe option.

[Andy_G]

This thread makes me think of something that doesn't happen up here in Canada...at least not often.

Why is the catching and keeping of wild reptiles and amphibians so prevalent in the U.S.? Why would someone want to catch and keep a species which is threatened/endangered/protected in some states and why is it being encouraged in this case specifically? It certainly can't aid conservation efforts, which is why so many claim to buy CB/CBB in the first place. Is this species one that is not commonly available in the pet trade there? We aren't allowed to keep native species without a permit up here and we can't have taken a wild specimen, so maybe that has a lot to do with why I feel like I am missing something? Can someone rationalize this a bit for me? :/

[LespaceSerpent]

I don't think catching of endangered species would be encouraged if it were endangered in that particular area as it varies. Not that they are anywhere but as an example moose wouldn't be considered endangered on the lower 48 because it isn't their ideal habitat, but if there were few moose in Alaska it'd be considered endangered. And there are many species which are not regularly captive bred bit are still plentiful in numbers wild. I mean I have a lot of fun catching bullfrog and Leopard frogs in my area in the summer and have kept them for a night occasionally. It's kind of like finding a really pretty snake in a store or event but instead it's in your own backyard!

And there are certain species/animals who do require permits to catch/own depending on how many there are, how dangerous they are, and the care needed for them, among a ton of other factors I'm sure

[Andy_G]

I don't think catching of endangered species would be encouraged if it were endangered in that particular area as it varies. Not that they are anywhere but as an example moose wouldn't be considered endangered on the lower 48 because it isn't their ideal habitat, but if there were few moose in Alaska it'd be considered endangered. And there are many species which are not regularly captive bred bit are still plentiful in numbers wild. I mean I have a lot of fun catching bullfrog and Leopard frogs in my area in the summer and have kept them for a night occasionally. It's kind of like finding a really pretty snake in a store or event but instead it's in your own backyard!

And there are certain species/animals who do require permits to catch/own depending on how many there are, how dangerous they are, and the care needed for them, among a ton of other factors I'm sure

We've all caught frogs, toads, bullfrogs, snakes, and so on, to look at and admire and maybe even keep them for a day or two, especially as kids! I think that's a bit different from catching and keeping something. The "there will always be more" way of thinking is certainly very finite and many animals have become extinct or extirpated from certain areas because of it...not just talkin' herps and no, this one instance won't be a great detriment to captive populations. Really am trying to wrap my head around it here still.

I also get the fact that some species are more prevalent in the wild and not as common in captivity, but surely someone breeds ribbon snakes in the U.S.? These aren't a coveted exotic species with an extremely limited amount floating around in captivity that we are talking about.

[Tiny Boidae]

I found two ads on Kingsnake.com for ribbon snakes, although you'd probably get dozens of results by doing a google search. They're not extremely common, but they're not impossible to find either. There's a lot of hot topics in the hobby I'm more impartial to, but I'm against taking wildlife from nature when there's some to be found in captivity. Ribbon snakes don't make good pets anyways.

I'd recommend releasing that poor guy and purchasing a captive one, but researching ribbon snakes more thoroughly. They're not impossible to keep for a beginner, but their diets are much more specialized around fish than a garter snake, and typically they'll turn their noses up at earthworms. Some people have had luck getting them to eat scented pinkies, but from what I've read it's the exception rather than the rule.

Also do note that there are different kinds of ribbon snakes, and each are known to be polar opposites behavior wise. Most commonly are the Western Ribbon Snake, which is extremely timid and defensive, while the Eastern Ribbon Snake is known to be a little more laid back. Google both to try and determine what you have, as that will be the best bet for you.

More over, I didn't read anything about a heating element. These snakes don't need it super hot, but a little warmer than the average home if they're to thrive.

What you can mainly take away from this post is two points: do your own research, thoroughly, and then consider releasing this guy back into the wild in favor of a captive individual.

[FWK]

Hello Doug, that's a good looking little critter you have there. While I completely agree with the others that releasing this animal and buying a captive bred specimen would be in the best interest of all involved, if you are willing and capable of taking on the challenges that come along with keeping a field collected snake by all means go for it. Legality has been mentioned, and the possibility of this being a protected species was brought up as well. You said you believe it to be a Redstripe Ribbon Snake (Thamnophis proximus rubrilineatus). Redstripe Ribbon Snakes are endemic to Texas and on the white list under Western Ribbon Snake, Thamnophis proximus. They are legal to collect from private property with a valid hunting license. If you are not in Texas, let us know your location so we can properly ID the snake and check into your local laws.

I have a field collected Western Ribbon Snake (Gulf Coast Ribbon specifically, T. p. orarius) and if your critter is anything like mine, you're in for a ride just to get it to eat. If you're not willing to go to extremes to get it eating, do yourself (and the snake) a favor and just let it go. Some field collected snakes adapt to captivity easily (most Rat and King Snakes, for example), but Ribbons can be a challenge.

[Albert Clark]

This thread makes me think of something that doesn't happen up here in Canada...at least not often.

Why is the catching and keeping of wild reptiles and amphibians so prevalent in the U.S.? Why would someone want to catch and keep a species which is threatened/endangered/protected in some states and why is it being encouraged in this case specifically? It certainly can't aid conservation efforts, which is why so many claim to buy CB/CBB in the first place. Is this species one that is not commonly available in the pet trade there? We aren't allowed to keep native species without a permit up here and we can't have taken a wild specimen, so maybe that has a lot to do with why I feel like I am missing something? Can someone rationalize this a bit for me? :/
It's frowned upon here in the states also to keep native species, threatened or endangered species as well. My intent was not condoning the keeping or believing that keeping a animal that is a legal risk to be ok for Doug. That is why one of my initial statements was how difficult it would be to keep a t.sauritus in captivity especially one that was "born free and living free". We have a lot of avid field herpers here in the US and some are privy to the existing laws and some aren't. I mentioned to Doug the animal is listed as threatened in some states and endangered in others. Listen, people make their own decisions. We put the info out there but the final decision is with the individual. He never said how long he was intending to keep the animal so I just imparted the information I had and left it at that. So, I also gave the info on captive care as I saw it.

[macandchz]

just a thought.. this little guy had a pond, the right things to eat that he survived thus far, maybe he should be returned to where he was living and doug go to a petco and pick up a snake that really could use some TLC.

[Andy_G]

Interesting feedback so far. This is the 7th or 8th instance this past week (since April 24th) alone that I have seen someone catching and intending to keep what they found all in the USA so that's really what stimulated my interest on the subject. :) Lots of food for thought.

It's frowned upon here in the states also to keep native species, threatened or endangered species as well. My intent was not condoning the keeping or believing that keeping a animal that is a legal risk to be ok for Doug. That is why one of my initial statements was how difficult it would be to keep a t.sauritus in captivity especially one that was "born free and living free". We have a lot of avid field herpers here in the US and some are privy to the existing laws and some aren't. I mentioned to Doug the animal is listed as threatened in some states and endangered in others. Listen, people make their own decisions. We put the info out there but the final decision is with the individual. He never said how long he was intending to keep the animal so I just imparted the information I had and left it at that. So, I also gave the info on captive care as I saw it.

Definitely didn't seem that way. If you're offering captive husbandry information coupled with something that could be regarded or interpreted as handling advice, instead of discouraging the thought of keeping it outright which both Tiny Boidae and FWK both hinted much more heavily at, one could argue that your intentions are not as clear as you may want them to be. Better to be blunt instead of being misinterpreted I think. That's what I usually do and it's seen as being difficult or arguing or perhaps that I am even a bit of an ***, but I would truly prefer that. At least it gets the point across and nobody will get b.s. or miss the point, whether they like it or not. Post in a public forum and there's bound to be people that won't agree. Gotta keep it real, just like Oprah. ;)

The OP also mentioned future enclosures and what to feed it when it gets larger...pretty fair guess that his intent is to keep it for a while.

[Doug 351]

First off...I said I "think" it's a red-striped, it's possible that it's a Western...it just looked pretty red when I caught it. I caught a Western blue out of the same pond a few years ago and kept it for a year before realeasing it in a safer environment. That pond is not safe as it's in close proximity to lawnmowers and uneducated snake haters. It's chance for survival is much better with me. (Provided I can get it to eat. This thing is a baby. It's chance of survival in the wild is not that great.

I just released a full grown rat snake that I kept for a few months. I saved it's life as I intervened as a group of 7 or 8 people were going to kill a "huge Copperhead"! I had it out playing with it the next day and took it back to the house I rescued it from and showed them the viscous snake they were going to kill. It still amazes me how docile that snake was.

I caught a full grown speckled king in my front yard and took it to the nature center where they made a display specimen snake out of it and it was well cared for. Years later, I caught a baby speckled and was going to keep it awhile but it escaped and I never found it.

I've had many wild caught animals over the years and I always take care of them well and usually release them in the area I feel is best for them.

They do sell Western ribbons here, I bought one for my daughter as a pet when she was very young and she loved it. I don't know about red-striped.

As far as pets go....not really my intention necessarily, so I wouldn't want to go out and buy one. I have a pet snake: 'Oscar' a full grown wild caught female Texas rat snake. I know Oscar is funny name for a female, but it was a grumpy baby when I caught it 15 years ago. I didn't know what it was, and anything about how to care for it, so I did research. She's my baby and she's been my ambassador for stopping the senseless killing of these animals in my neighborhood. She's been handled by hundreds of people over the years and hopefully educated them on what they are: beneficial harmless animals. I teased her hard to test her disposition before I handed her over to kids to hold. She hated being tied in knots, but never bit. She did bite me one time when I was doing something else she didn't like....and she just clamped down so lightly she didn't break the skin...(just warning me she'd had enough!)

She did bite the crap out of me awhile back....I was chunking dead mice into her enclosure and was looking at the next mouse (and not her) when I felt her clamp down on my fingers....I had to pry her off me! (She thought she had a mouse and wasn't letting go!)

I have a baby Texas rat snake right now....it's tamed down and eating well...but unless Oscar dies, I'll release it when it gets some size on it or ask the nature center if they need one.

I do have a small heating pad for the cage the ribbon is in.
BTW: Yes...I'm in Texas...native born.

EDIT: One last point: don't be confused....there is a HUGE difference between a person who knows what they are doing keeping one individual and collected large numbers for sale to people who don't from wild populations.

[FWK]

EDIT: One last point: don't be confused....there is a HUGE difference between a person who knows what they are doing keeping one individual and collected large numbers for sale to people who don't from wild populations.

I agree with this completely, I have no issue with people keeping field collected animals as long as they are collected legally and responsibly. I have a number of field collected critters myself. That said, there is a legal issue in play here. It is illegal to release a captive animal under any circumstances. Once you take an animal home and introduce it to your collection, feed it, etc., you cannot release it (you have probably already passed this point with this animal really). There are reasons wildlife rehabbers have to be licensed. If you keep a wild animal it is your responsibility for the rest of its life. You can't even sell it without a permit (the permit is easy to get though, it's about 60 dollars). You can relocate wild snakes a short distance, again with a valid hunting license and on private property. But it is best not to move them more than a few hundred yards as they tend to have a small home range, and moving them outside of this home range is essentially a death sentence.

As for the specific ID of this animal, Redstripe Ribbon Snakes (Thamnophis proximus rubrilineatus) are only found on the Edwards Plateau in central Texas. If you are anywhere else in Texas it is not a T. p. rubrilineatus, no matter what color the dorsal stripe is.

[Doug 351]

BTW: I didn't mention why I was out at the pond that day....I have some lawnmowers that I'm fixing up for resale. I had pushed one next to my shed...(which the possums and coon live under)... and was pulling on the starter cord...priming it, ect. when I saw the back end of a baby snake that had come out of the bottom of that mower heading under that shed. I couldn't reach it before it got under.

So I thought (pretty sure) it was a baby blotched water snake. That's my second least favorite snake in the world. See...I don't want snakes in my pond! It's a goldfish pond and some of those fish are my pets! If I can catch this little guy...he'll be relocated.

My LEAST favorite is the yellow belied watersnake....I despise them! I've relocated a couple, but I'm not above dispatching them if necessary!

I used to be like the average person...afraid of snakes and killing every one I saw. I am now a protector of them and very fond of them....but I'm more fond of my lizards and toads..and even fish....I don't like snakes well enough to let them reduce my toad population. Or even my fish population.....so I'm hunting for this blotched watersnake before it becomes a resident.

[Doug 351]

I agree with this completely, I have no issue with people keeping field collected animals as long as they are collected legally and responsibly. I have a number of field collected critters myself. That said, there is a legal issue in play here. It is illegal to release a captive animal under any circumstances. Once you take an animal home and introduce it to your collection, feed it, etc., you cannot release it (you have probably already passed this point with this animal really). There are reasons wildlife rehabbers have to be licensed. If you keep a wild animal it is your responsibility for the rest of its life. You can't even sell it without a permit (the permit is easy to get though, it's about 60 dollars). You can relocate wild snakes a short distance, again with a valid hunting license and on private property. But it is best not to move them more than a few hundred yards as they tend to have a small home range, and moving them outside of this home range is essentially a death sentence.

As for the specific ID of this animal, Redstripe Ribbon Snakes (Thamnophis proximus rubrilineatus) are only found on the Edwards Plateau in central Texas. If you are anywhere else in Texas it is not a T. p. rubrilineatus, no matter what color the dorsal stripe is.

Yeah....A few things....UMMMMN....Yeah, there are speed limits everywhere I go...am I they only one that ignores them occasionally?

And actually....It might stretch the "few hundred yards" at times , but I'm aware of that as well...but have to weigh the probably of it's survival based on habitat as well....but I always try to relocate as close as possible to the origin of capture.

That. is also...(if I'm not mistaken) a pretty general law...and reptiles seem to adapt back to the wild much better than mammals. Also...it really depends on whether you rehabilitate them , just grow them out a bit, or make pets out of them. But reptiles generally operate on a high level of natural instinct and seem IMO to adapt back to the wild pretty easily.

Now...if you take a wild mammal and raise it from a baby....whole different story. Not that I haven't....but they were baby possums...caught in my yard....released in my yard...and they get some "snacks" from me occasionally. Sooo....while I use the term "wild" loosely...those guys weren't exactly "in the wild"! BTW: I went through 3 or 4 baby possums....not that I didn't tame them down and get them to stop crapping or even defensively biting...(or threatening to)....the first 3 or so....grew testicles and started getting a little rowdy so I let them go. The fourth was finally a female....I grew her out to an adult...(fairly well litter trained) ...and well behaved on my lap....but frankly, my ratsnake enjoys that more than that possum did....so I let her go. I let the full grown Texas ratsnake go in my backyard.

In the case of baby snakes.....again....we're dealing with generalities.....a full grown (or half grown) snake has survived the high mortality rate of a baby...and established a hunting route and knowledge of it's area (be it suburban or natural) ...whereas a snake a few days old hasn't. Given a half grown snake can live for almost a year without food....I still believe that their chances are better with a little size on them...they're just going to elementary school a little later. But thanks for the heads up on the law.

As far as being restricted to the Edwards Plateau.....that is the home range of the red-sided ribbon...but they are not completely restricted there.

Which is why my curiosity about this little guy is peaked...they are not common in my area....however....10-15 years ago...neither were whitewing doves....and they are common as rats now. And there is precedence to them being spotted/captured in my area.

[eminart]

This thread makes me think of something that doesn't happen up here in Canada...at least not often.

Why is the catching and keeping of wild reptiles and amphibians so prevalent in the U.S.? Why would someone want to catch and keep a species which is threatened/endangered/protected in some states and why is it being encouraged in this case specifically? It certainly can't aid conservation efforts, which is why so many claim to buy CB/CBB in the first place. Is this species one that is not commonly available in the pet trade there? We aren't allowed to keep native species without a permit up here and we can't have taken a wild specimen, so maybe that has a lot to do with why I feel like I am missing something? Can someone rationalize this a bit for me? :/

I think there's a lot of overreaction to field collecting. As long as it is done in sustainable numbers, there's no issue. Obviously endangered or threatened animals shouldn't be collected. But, a few people taking an occasional, non-threatened snake is no different than it being eaten by a predator. Those losses are built into how nature handles animal population. It has no affect on stable population numbers. .

That said, I don't condone rampant collecting either.

[Doug 351]

Yeah...I agree...but I'm not even doing that. I'm just catching critters in my backyard that don't. have all that good a chance of survival anyway...and trying to give them a "leg up".

Funny how people online want to type in a few words and think it makes a difference. I'm telling you...it's not me....or anyone like me keeping a few individuals (whether released or not) that has a big impact on the population.

It's the 100 other people that think "the only good snake is a dead snake " and kill every one they see...that do the most damage. I mentioned that I have went out among the masses with Oscar to try and educate those people about the truth about snakes....and I KNOW I've made a difference....people have come to get me to take snakes out of their yards...whereas if I (and Oscar) hadn't educated them would have simply killed them...and they don't know or don't care about endangered species. Even after seeing Oscar..they still can't tell a ratsnake from a rattlesnake....but they knew I could...and came and got me.

Soooo...if you REALLY care about the "wild" snake population....get out and educate the indiscriminate snake killers...instead of preaching on a snake forum. I also mentioned the nature center and a snake I contributed for exhibition....again...that snake educated a lot of visitors at that nature center....and it might have saved a few kings from being mindlessly slaughtered or misidentified as a venomous snake.

You can't save every snake, you can't change every mind....but you can make a much bigger difference in the real world than talking to people here...(who are probably already snake lovers anyway! )

[Albert Clark]

Thanks Doug for all your perspectives and insight. I hope i was a little bit of help. I do have a conviction about wild caughts but that is my personal feelings. What people care to do and not do is really out of my control. I will continue to try and help with my limited knowledge and experience, to disseminate information that i think is helpful. It's a thin line between an opinion and a option even though they both start with the letters "o" and "p". Thanks for all the education you have imparted to those snake haters. If you do get the feeling to "dispatch" any of those water snakes near your pond try to relocate them instead. Lol. :yes: :blink: :cool:

[Andy_G]

Really liking where this went. I was really much more geared toward understanding why this happens so very often there, and if it were all situations like this, it sure would be nice.

[Doug 351]

BTW: This is the baby Texas ratsnake.....I just love these little guys! I wish they would keep this coloration and markings their whole lives!

[Doug 351]

And here's Oscar....she just ate 3 mice and a baby chicken....but APPARENTLY, she's still hungry! Ratsnakes are chowhounds!

Oh yeah, that old tennis shoe is her favorite hide!

[Albert Clark]

Nice. Good job.

[Doug 351]

Well ....took the little ribbon out for a few minutes. I'm now pretty sure it is a Western Ribbon

Much easier to handle and tamed down now....Still wants to musk a little...but no biting and settles down pretty quickly, and becomes a little sweetheart.

Seems very well acclimated now....so...I'm going to try feeding tomorrow.

BTW: My silly red-eared slider turtle cracked me up this morning! He's gotten big enough he can just stand up on his back legs, stretch his neck...and grab a dried shrimp..so...I thought I'd see if he could grab one through the hardware cloth top...(he used to have to kinda snatch them out of my fingers while swimming...(something I had him doing a week after I caught him...)..he was stretching up to get his treat....and fell over BACKWARDS! ...Anyway...everybody's fine here....

[Doug 351]

Just a quick update..gave the little booger a bowl of tadpoles and small mosquito fish. The larger mosquito fish are missing....it's a shallow bowl and they may have jumped out....One things for sure...the tadpoles can't...so...we'll see.

[Doug 351]

Just an update : Remington is doing just fine. Still not sure if he's gonna be a permanent resident or not...could go either way...since he is such a common snake...It can go either way.

Anyway...he seems to be a happy camper...and eating just fine.

Ohhh..and there's there this: found in my kitchen.....SOOOOOOO....Happy to see this guy....hopefully making a comeback around my property....(American quarter for scale.)

[Albert Clark]

Thanks... Nice update.

[Doug 351]

Well..another update on Remington...the little ribbon..

I caught some more small mosquito fish last night...went to take the lid off his Critter Keeper and pushed the mason jar lid I had glued on to seal the water bottle hole off..(used to have mice in there at one time.)

Anyway, I just put it on top and stretched some electrical tape across it. Well, this morning, one side of the electrical tape had pulled loose and pulled the lid out of the way. Naturally, I immediately thought: "Oh well..he's history! " Nope...he's still there..(but all the mosquito fish are gone). Right now, he's got his chin on the edge of his water bowl, looking at me. Wonder what he wants? :freakedout::yes:

BTW: Vin Diesel, my red eared slider got a treat last night...I was eating shrimp cocktail I made...so I gave him some pieces of shrimp to pluck from my fingers. I also gave him some dried shrimp...(his usual favorite treat.) Well, he dropped the dried shrimp...(not an unusual occurrence, because he's really squeamish about maybe accidentally nipping my fingers and the shrimp are small....so he doesn't bite down very hard...) but he'll go back and pick them up off the bottom of the aquarium and eat them. This morning...they were still there...and he didn't show much enthusiasm for his turtle food! Oh...how quickly they get spoiled! I guess he thinks he thinks he's gonna get those cooked shrimp all the time now.

Ummmm.....no!