King Rat or Keeled Rat, anyone?

[eminart]

Elaphe carinata or Ptyas carinatus to be more specific.

Has anyone here ever kept either? I love the big colubrids. These are two that I'd be very interested in keeping in the future. With my indigo taking up a large portion of my "reptile room", I don't currently have room for anything else that requires a lot of space. But, someday I will. I want a HUGE colubrid. Unfortunately, I don't think my indigo is going to reach record size. Hopefully, he'll get up over 7' eventually though. But, a large display with a 12' P. carinatus would be awesome.

Anyway, just wondered if anybody here had any experience with them.

[Sylphie]

I don't have personal experience with Elaphe carinata, but I thought about them once too. I talked with a few owners of them and even hold one, but to be honest their personalities aren't for me. These are rather aggressive snakes, and their musk is really, really bad (according to the owners I talked with). It's so bad that you practically need to throw your clothes, as washing them has little to no effects.
But like I said, it's not my personal experience, just what I heard :)

[eminart]

They don't call them "Stinking Goddesses" for nothing. LOL. I wonder if it is really that bad? I'm leaning more toward the P. carinatus anyway, but I do prefer the colors of the E. carinata.

[Sylphie]

Hahaha, I can't tell you for sure how bad it is, but I heard really scary stories about it. And adding the aggressive nature I just decided it's too much for me :D But yes, the colors are really nice!

[zactay22]

The keeled rat is a very cool snake. DMexotics works with them. He just released a cool video about the less common snakes in the trade. Been watching his videos for awhile now. The travel ones are interesting. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wp9KhBN4y4Y

[IW17]

Stinking goddess is a very appropriate nickname. You immediately smell their distinct odor the second you open the cage. And they smell as well. Mine isn't prone to biting, but is very flighty. Almost never stops moving. And mine is rarely out and about. Which is the one reason I've considered selling her. Flighty, bitey, smelly, etc I can deal with. But she's pretty much like having an expensive enclosure with nothing in it. That being said, she is a beautiful snake.

[eminart]

Zactay, I've been following DM exotics on YouTube for a couple of years. That latest video is what got me thinking about them again. I agree, his videos are interesting. I like oddball stuff and he's one of the few that keeps "different" snakes.

IW17, that's a bummer. Maybe the P. carinatus is more visible? I think they're largely arboreal, and, in my mind, would make a cool display snake.

[Aaron_S]

Zactay, I've been following DM exotics on YouTube for a couple of years. That latest video is what got me thinking about them again. I agree, his videos are interesting. I like oddball stuff and he's one of the few that keeps "different" snakes.

IW17, that's a bummer. Maybe the P. carinatus is more visible? I think they're largely arboreal, and, in my mind, would make a cool display snake.

If you haven't already, maybe consider tiger rat snakes. Arboreal and large colubrids. Tend to be a little more slender than I think the king rats but still large.

I'm unsure of the latin name, but what about cave dwelling ratsnakes as well?

[Sylphie]

I second tiger rat snakes! As for cave dwelling (Orthriophis taeniurus ridleyi) they are long, right, but rather slender, so won't be as impressive in my opinion (although they are super pretty!).

[eminart]

If you haven't already, maybe consider tiger rat snakes. Arboreal and large colubrids. Tend to be a little more slender than I think the king rats but still large.

I'm unsure of the latin name, but what about cave dwelling ratsnakes as well?


I like those as well, Aaron. If I had room, I'd probably have enormous collection of obscure colubrids. But, for my next one (and I need more room before I can even get one more large snake) I'd like to get something that falls into the "largest colubrid" category. I think there's some disagreement on which snake that is, but I'd love something in the 12' range.

[Albert Clark]

Need room is my middle name. I know where you're coming from with that em.

[pet_snake_78]

My king rats are still small but growing fairly quickly. I enjoy them a lot, they have quite a bit of personality. Either snake would be fine with me. Another one to consider would be a CB or LTC red tailed green ratsnake.

[Aaron_S]

My king rats are still small but growing fairly quickly. I enjoy them a lot, they have quite a bit of personality. Either snake would be fine with me. Another one to consider would be a CB or LTC red tailed green ratsnake.

They are rather slender and don't get quite as big as the one's mentioned.

Very good choice though for something different.

[eminart]

Need room is my middle name. I know where you're coming from with that em.

If only we could all have that 2000 sq ft basement.

My king rats are still small but growing fairly quickly. I enjoy them a lot, they have quite a bit of personality. Either snake would be fine with me. Another one to consider would be a CB or LTC red tailed green ratsnake.

How's the stink with them?

They are rather slender and don't get quite as big as the one's mentioned.

Very good choice though for something different.

Yes, I've looked at them. I like them, and wouldn't mind having one, but not exactly what I'm researching right now.

[Roman]

Hi eminart,

really interesting snakes you are asking for. I don’t have any personal experience with Elaphe carinata or Ptyas carinatus but from my experience with tiger ratsnakes (Spilotes pullatus) and red tailed green ratsnakes (Gonyosoma oxycephalum) I might give you at least some hints.

Elaphe carinata usually stays between 150 and 200 cm in total length (5 – 7 ft), they might reach up to 250 cm (8 ft) but most individuals stay smaller. I read one comment in a German forum who claimed that his adult snakes didn’t musk any longer, only the young and subadult snakes did use their glands. This might be because of the acclimatization, so I wouldn’t bet any large amounts of money on this with a new snake.

I don’t have a lot of information about Ptyas carinatus, what I found is that they like to climb and that they are active and agile with a bad disposition. In order to keep such a large snake you might need a huge enclosure. So if you really consider keeping (and enjoying) such a huge snake you might need at least something like 300 x 90 x 200 cm (10 x 3 x 7 ft). My enclosure for my Spilotes is 250 x 90 x 190 cm, I use 3 light bulps with 70 watts each for lighting and heating, for such a large enclosure you might probably need 4 bulps with 280 watts. So your power consumption might get even higher than it is right now…

There is also the disposition of this snake. My Spilotes are really easy to handle, usually I don’t need any gloves but can handle them with my bare hands without getting bitten. However during feeding time it is a completely different ballgame, they can enter a state like a feeding frenzy. Trying to control an agitated 280 cm (9 ft) long snake which tries to bite anything it can reach is an interesting experience. Now imagine that with a 400 cm (13 ft) snake which can go for your face without any difficulty…

Spilotes pullatus is a great snake to keep and from my experience even wild caught snakes calm down within a really short time if you provide them with a large enclosure. If you are interested search for my threads about them to get some ideas and don’t hesitate to ask me any question you might have.

The same is true for Gonyosoma, they stay smaller than Spilotes and don’t need that much room. I keep 2.1 adults in an enclosure 120 x 70 x 150 cm (4 x 2 x 5 ft).

I will get two Spilotes (Pseustes) sulphureus next month, This is another large colubrid, they might get a little longer than Spilotes pullatus and they seem to be a little more sturdy. I am really curious about their temperament…

Roman

[SerpentineDream]

Black milk snakes! Size and beauty without the attitude. They can get between 6 and 7 feet long and are hefty snakes. They go through a cool transformation. They start out banded like your typical tricolor milk snake, and then they get black dots on the tips of their scales. Those black dots grow and spread out until the snake is solid iridescent black. They tend to be very docile. They come from the Costa Rican cloud forest so they take cooler temperatures.

They do tend to have a strong feeding response, so watch your hands at mealtime. But if you have an indigo you already know all about that....

[eminart]

Hi eminart,

really interesting snakes you are asking for. I don’t have any personal experience with Elaphe carinata or Ptyas carinatus but from my experience with tiger ratsnakes (Spilotes pullatus) and red tailed green ratsnakes (Gonyosoma oxycephalum) I might give you at least some hints.

Elaphe carinata usually stays between 150 and 200 cm in total length (5 – 7 ft), they might reach up to 250 cm (8 ft) but most individuals stay smaller. I read one comment in a German forum who claimed that his adult snakes didn’t musk any longer, only the young and subadult snakes did use their glands. This might be because of the acclimatization, so I wouldn’t bet any large amounts of money on this with a new snake.

I don’t have a lot of information about Ptyas carinatus, what I found is that they like to climb and that they are active and agile with a bad disposition. In order to keep such a large snake you might need a huge enclosure. So if you really consider keeping (and enjoying) such a huge snake you might need at least something like 300 x 90 x 200 cm (10 x 3 x 7 ft). My enclosure for my Spilotes is 250 x 90 x 190 cm, I use 3 light bulps with 70 watts each for lighting and heating, for such a large enclosure you might probably need 4 bulps with 280 watts. So your power consumption might get even higher than it is right now…

There is also the disposition of this snake. My Spilotes are really easy to handle, usually I don’t need any gloves but can handle them with my bare hands without getting bitten. However during feeding time it is a completely different ballgame, they can enter a state like a feeding frenzy. Trying to control an agitated 280 cm (9 ft) long snake which tries to bite anything it can reach is an interesting experience. Now imagine that with a 400 cm (13 ft) snake which can go for your face without any difficulty…

Spilotes pullatus is a great snake to keep and from my experience even wild caught snakes calm down within a really short time if you provide them with a large enclosure. If you are interested search for my threads about them to get some ideas and don’t hesitate to ask me any question you might have.

The same is true for Gonyosoma, they stay smaller than Spilotes and don’t need that much room. I keep 2.1 adults in an enclosure 120 x 70 x 150 cm (4 x 2 x 5 ft).

I will get two Spilotes (Pseustes) sulphureus next month, This is another large colubrid, they might get a little longer than Spilotes pullatus and they seem to be a little more sturdy. I am really curious about their temperament…

Roman

Good info, Roman. Thank you.

Black milk snakes! Size and beauty without the attitude. They can get between 6 and 7 feet long and are hefty snakes. They go through a cool transformation. They start out banded like your typical tricolor milk snake, and then they get black dots on the tips of their scales. Those black dots grow and spread out until the snake is solid iridescent black. They tend to be very docile. They come from the Costa Rican cloud forest so they take cooler temperatures.

They do tend to have a strong feeding response, so watch your hands at mealtime. But if you have an indigo you already know all about that....

Black milks are cool snakes, indeed. But, in this case, I'm looking for the truly huge colubrids. I wish my indigo would get up to 8', but sadly, it doesn't appear he'll make it. I want something in the 10+ ft range. The Ptyas carinatus seems to be my best bet there.

[acpearson]

You could look at a vietnamese blue beauty rat snake. If you get one from large parents, you might win the genetic lottery and get a 10' monster, and being colorful and semi-arboreal, it would be a nice show snake.

[eminart]

Trying to find the realistic size of some of these snakes is next to impossible. For example, the tiger rats are said to be anywhere from 6 to 14 feet long, depending on the site you read. They're gorgeous snakes, and I didn't realize they got quite as long as some of the reports.

[RAD House]

You should try to locate a breeder and discuss the size of their breeders. I think your best bet is find an animal that has parents that are around the size you are looking for. Obviously this is still not a guarantee but it is as good as you are going to get.

[eminart]

You should try to locate a breeder and discuss the size of their breeders. I think your best bet is find an animal that has parents that are around the size you are looking for. Obviously this is still not a guarantee but it is as good as you are going to get.


Yeah, that's probably going to be the best way to get a realistic size estimate. I actually sent Dan Mulleary (the DM exotics guy with the videos) a message yesterday asking him this question. He keeps a lot of the snakes I'm interested in.

[Roman]

I think it is as likely to find a 4,00 m (13 ft) tiger ratsnake (Spilotes pullatus) as it is to find a 10,00 m (33 ft) green anaconda (Eunectes murinus). I have some older books which state a maximum length of up to 4 m for Spilotes pullatus and of course there are so many sites in the internet who state the same (usually without ever having seen a Spilotes by themselves). If you look in more recent literature the authors report maximum length for Spilotes pullatus between 250 cm and 300 cm (ca. 8 ft. to 10 ft.).

Just a few examples of actually measured max. total length in individual snakes:

McCranie, J.R.: The Snakes of Honduras - Systematics, Distribution, and Conservation, Itahaca 2011 --> maximum total length male 257 cm (>8 ft.) for Honduras

Solorzano, A.: Snakes of Costa Rica - Distribution, taxonomy, and natural history, Santo Domingo de Heredia 2004 --> maximum total length male 260 cm (>8 ft.) for Costa Rica

Lancini, A., Kornacker, P.: Die Schlangen von Venezuela, Caracas 1986 --> maximum total length 300 cm (10 ft.) (just a general statement, the authors did not mention a actual measured snake)

I also asked anybody I could find who keeps or has kept these snakes(in Germany, the UK, USA and Canada), anybody confirmed that their longest snakes might barely reach 300 cm, but most where between 250 cm and 280 cm (8 ft. – 9 ft.). My largest snake is my male which is about this size, I would estimate him to be between 270 cm and 280 cm in total length (ca 9 ft.), the females are ca. 240 cm (8 ft.) and 180 cm (6 ft).

There was a friendly contest in an UK reptile forum which user owned the longest and the heaviest colubrid of this forum probably a year ago. I ended somewhere in the upper third with my Spilotes male and 280 cm length, the undisputed winner was a Vietnamese blue beauty (Orthriophis taeniurus callicyanous) who was ca 10 ft. long.


Here are some pictures of my male Spilotes (the second male died some time ago, so I only have one of them left)

They are about 2.8 m (> 9ft) long and weighing about 1.0 kg.

Here is my first male on his daily trip, the measuring tape is 2 m as a reference. He wasn’t very cooperative and didn’t stay with the tape but I think you get an impression.

http://i782.photobucket.com/albums/yy105/elaphe420/IMG_2872_zps2c578445.jpg


This is my second male, you can see his tail in the upper right corner of the picture, the completely black tail is his, the other one with more yellow is the other male.

http://i782.photobucket.com/albums/yy105/elaphe420/IMG_2874_zps02eab29f.jpg


http://i782.photobucket.com/albums/yy105/elaphe420/IMG_2873_zpsed7fef52.jpg

Roman

[Albert Clark]

Wow! They are really terrific looking colubrids. Huge also. Very nice Roman.

[eminart]

Thanks again, Roman. Awesome snakes. These are climbing up my list quickly the more I learn about them. An 8-10 ft colubrid is pretty impressive and, realistically probably just as large as the Ptyas carinatus. And, they're certainly one of the most beautiful of the large colubrids.

[Roman]

Hi eminart,

I will seduce you to Spilotes :D


In my opinion is the size of your enclosure the most important issue. In general terms – the bigger the better, in any dimension. I would consider 200 x 90 x 150 cm (7 x 3 x 5 ft) as minimum size for an adult pair or a group of 1.2 as I keep them. If you can expand in height or width do it.

Spilotes pullatus is a highly active snake if it has room to be active in, I suppose the same as your indigo, just with the need to climb and often rest in the branches.

From my experience the critical dimension for the behavior of the snakes is the depth of the enclosure. The terrarium I use for quarantine of new additions is ca. 120 x 60 x 100 cm (4 x 2 x 3 ft). Every Spilotes I kept in there was really defensive after he/she settled in. The wc female I got last September was striking at me several times when I just moved in front of the enclosure, doing the regular maintenance resulted sometimes in hiding, but several times in attacking the offending plastic spoon, even if this meant she had to leave her hiding spot.

When I moved her into the Spilotes enclosure (250 x 90 x 190 cm / 8 x 3 x 6 ft) this behavior stopped almost immediately. Now she is relaxed, continues to rest on one of the branches and the maintenance is only a minor disturbance. It seems that the depth of the quarantine enclosure is not deep enough for their preferred “safety distance”, but 90 cm / 3 ft lets them keep enough distance for their sense of safety. On the other hand a depth of much more than 100 cm gets tricky to clean if you have several large branches in your way to get there. Sometimes I feel like a yoga trainee or a snake person when I try to wriggle between two branches to get this last remaining dropping the guys just put at the back of the enclosure. The icing on the cake is the curious snake right above your neck which is just watching what this crazy human is doing know and if it should be offended enough to make its displeasure felt by a quick bite in the exposed neck or if it just let be – at least for know…


http://i782.photobucket.com/albums/yy105/elaphe420/IMG_2159_zpse0ee65f6.jpg

That’s an older picture of my favorite wriggle place. If they did it the right way I have to squeeze between the two lianas to the left, the cork trunk below and the liana at the top to get there – while two or three snakes watch the scene from their vantage point

What else can I say – these snakes are my absolute favorites. They are active, they have their own personalities, sometimes they are even active in shifts. One male I had would be active as soon as the lights turned on and would be active until early noon. The other one would come out of hiding about two hours after lights on and would be active until late afternoon. The snakes I currently have don't have such a clear schedule but each of them is active for several hours per day.

They look fantastic, the environmental settings are more or less the same as for any other rainforest reptile, they eat thawed rodents or chicken without any issues and in my experience so far will lose their defensiveness, at least in a way that you can do your maintenance without a hissing and biting snake.

The minor disadvantages are the same as with your indigo. The feces smell really bad, and of course the enclosure size and the energy you need for light and heat have to be considered before you go for a snake like this. I never regretted my decision to get my first Spilotes and I enjoy every day with them since then.

Roman

[eminart]

Roman, I believe you have seduced me indeed. I think, I've decided Spilotes will be my next big colubrid. However, as I mentioned in my first post, I don't have enough space for them now. But, we're hoping to move to a new house within a year or so. More space for snakes will be high on my priority list when we're looking at new homes.

Awesome snakes and they really have all the characteristics I like. I hope to have some sooner rather than later.

[pet_snake_78]

King ratsnake is a lot of fun to watch the colors come in, some yellows are just coming in on mine.

[eminart]

Pretty little guy you have there Pet_Snake.

Just a minor update. We're seriously looking into selling our house and moving. So, naturally I've been looking for homes with more reptile room in my preliminary searches. My next big colubrid might happen sooner than I'd originally thought. :D However, I've started thinking it probably makes the most sense to first buy a mate for my egyptian tortoise.