Jag Carpet Project

[phassin]

Sup guys. I'm Patrick and I've been checking out the forum for a couple weeks now. Lately I've been toying with breeding my Jag and have had dozens of questions. This place has answered many a question regarding all kinds of stuff. Thanks!

Anyways I got my plans up and running and have decided to pursue getting a second snake to breed. I bought a bunch of wood to make two stackable cages 4'x2'x2'. My boy Jac has a date with a reptile specialist and a probe tomorrow (I'm planning on forcing the guy to teach me how to do it as well). Gotta double check since I didn't get him from the breeder. He finally shed today so he's back to his bright yellow coat.

My question to you guys: should my other snake be a jungle, irian jaya or something totally different? Im not quite sure but was planning on getting on at the next reptile show in Charlotte.

[Minkness]

I say IJ to allow smaller jags! =D

[phassin]

I was kinda thinking the same thing but then I see all these gorgeous jungle jags and I can't decide! If t comes down to two comparable snakes available I'd probably go with the IJ

Here's what Jac looks like post shed in all his glory

[EL Ziggy]

Welcome to the forum and best wishes Patrick. I'd go with either a jungle, or a diamond x jungle. The jaguar gene would be awesome with either of those.

[phassin]

Ziggy why go jungle over IJ though? I honestly haven't seen many IJ jags to know if they vary in brightness or what not.

[EL Ziggy]

My apologies Patrick I didn't ask what kind of jag you have. If he's an IJ jag I'd can't go with an IJ. If he's a jungle jag I'd get a jungle. You really can't go wrong either way and I'll admit I'm a big fan of jungles. Jungles are also a bit more popular and IMO they would probably sell faster and possibly for a higher price.

[phassin]

Good point about popularity and selling. I had half a thought to think a IJ Jag might be easier to sell because they are smaller and one thing that seems to turn most people off of a snake is that it may get too big (even though an 8ft carpet isn't the same as an 8ft boa). Then again most people buying a jag usually aren't typical snake owners and are looking specifically for that morph so those rules may not apply.

Also he's a Coastal Carpet. That leads me to another question I have. How can someone visually tell the difference between a coastal and a jungle jag other than size?

[chairman]

I have a male IJ jag and a female IJ. I plan to acquire a female caramel IJ for my male as well. If everything goes according to plan I'll have jags and sibs from one pairing and jags, caramels, caramel jags, and sibs from the other. Given my preferences, I'd recommend a caramel coastal for your project.

The biggest thing to make sure that you don't do, in my opinion, is do not breed a jag to a jag. A python with two copies of the jag gene either dies in the egg or dies shortly after birth.

Telling the difference between the carpets in the US can be tricky because the bloodlines have been muddled by people who haven't been concerned about purity.

[phassin]

Chairman, for sure not getting a another Jag. Agreed that would be a really bad idea. Sounds like you have a good setup going yourself. I have seen some unreal caramels out there (Looks like Gebon just got a beauty), but I'm wondering about size. Are Caramel Coastals 8+ feet as adults?

Also I have been wondering this one and it sounds like you may have an answer if you're already a breeder but how did you start selling your snakes? Did you go online and post ads, go to reptile shows, sell to local shops, or something else?

Three different people with different ideas and all sound enticing.

[gebon]

I have seen some unreal caramels out there (Looks like Gebon just got a beauty), but I'm wondering about size. Are Caramel Coastals 8+ feet as adults?

The size also depends on how you feed them. The breeder I know has a bunch of adult coastals which has been fed a little less and none of them are more then 7 feet. He also have a female that have been fed the "American way" and she is 10 feet:) :):)

[EL Ziggy]

@ Patrick- I agree with Chairman. If it's a coastal jag I'd go with a caramel coastal or super caramel coastal would be even nicer. You are right about their size. They can potentially grow to 7-9 ft. I'm hoping my male caramel hits 7ft +.

http://i1319.photobucket.com/albums/t674/EL-Ziggy/Mobile%20Uploads/20160316_235055_zpsbrfyfzva.jpg (http://s1319.photobucket.com/user/EL-Ziggy/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160316_235055_zpsbrfyfzva.jpg.html)

[chairman]

I haven't bred snakes since the 90's and my male carpet won't be ready to breed until next year and the female probably the year after. Back in the day I primarily sold to a local shop. In recent years I've worked with some other reptiles and I've sold to local shops, via Facebook, via craigslist, and at a local reptile expo. Because I keep my sales relatively local I tend to sell for below market prices and I hold my animals for a long time. If I were to advertise online, say on fauna, I'd probably do better. Unfortunately, in order to ship animals you have to be near a staffed fedex shipping store and you have to be able to get there around the time of their last pickup, usually 4 or 5 pm. My current situation would require me to take a half day off work to ship anything and by the time I factor in all the costs I lose quite a bit of money even selling at slightly above market prices. Luckily for me, I'm in a position where my reptiles can be a little of a money pit hobby so I just have to keep my activities such that I limit my losses appropriately.

As far as the carpets go, I got IJs because they're a great size, they're great eaters, they sit out where you can admire them, and they handle well to boot. I will probably only breed a season or two, maybe hold back a male caramel jag, and sell or trade the rest. I'm not going to make any money but I might actually break even on them.

If I were you I'd look into your situation and figure out where you plan to be in a couple years. Breeding snakes is a costly endeavor and is highly unlikely to bring in very much income. People seem to be paying more attention to carpets but only time will tell where supply is going to be relative to demand. Occasionally breeding pets I enjoy keeping looks to be the best path for me but some people are better off just buying the animals they want without ever breeding them.

[phassin]

I am not really looking to make any extra money off of breeding snakes. I'm a single guy with no kids working as an engineer wanting to take a life long obsession with snakes as far as I can. I wouldn't mind making a little money of course but I've done some estimates and very best case scenarios are still low after equipment/care costs. My reason for taking on this venture is primarily for enjoyment. I've had my jag for about 4 years now and I want to take it further. Seeing that he's actually a desirable snake to breed makes it all the more worth trying.

Thanks for the info on how you have done sales. There's really only one pet shop in Charlotte I know of that sells any large(ish) snakes and I didn't like the care/attitude I saw. I get the feeling I would be pretty protective of the first babies produced. I have seen some a bit further into North Carolina that look to sell a lot of snakes and I know they pick up from local breeders.

I'll keep an eye out for some caramels as well. June will the next reptile expo so that's my deadline for buying a snake.

[phassin]

Currently working on building the new enclosures. I've been putting pretty much all my free time towards these behemoths. Two 4'x2'x2' that will be stackable. I'm using pine plywood for the walls and 1.5"x1.5" for the foundations. Here's the progress..

[phassin]

I'm also making the edging and background out of styrofoam/great stuff. I couldn't find any good fitting 2D backgrounds for a good price online and I didn't want it to look boring so I am trying to go the extra mile. Turns out not to be that difficult to do the styrofoam background thus far. I still have to seal it but I go the grout on the edging and started to set up the background. I'll make the back pieces removable for easier cleanup and set up.

[trailblazer295]

Build looks good, keep us updated. I'm looking for a baby carpet in the near future and plan to build an adult cage myself as well probably the same size so I could use the ideas on how it's done. Haverhill built a reptile cage before.

[Derek Roddy]

Wow, cages look great.

On the size issue, don't base anything on that as snakes in captivity grow in relation to when they're feed by their keepers....not what is available to them in their natural habitat.
Habitat is what dictates size...in the wild.

Doesn't work that way in captivity.

I have friends who feed heavy that have IJs that are 8-10 feet. Another keeper who keeps IJ and feeds less.....they're 5-6
Size is relative to voluntary feeding in captivity.

I'd try to find an animal that matches your taste and not worry about the labels. You're already working with a cross so, in that regards...it doesn't matter from this point forward with the blood.
Get what you like.

D

[phassin]

I think you're right about getting what you really what you like. Though I think caramel jags probably would sell for more, I really love the black and yellow contrast on the jungles. I was looking at some high gold jungles online. Must. Wait. Until. Repticon!!!

Thanks for the compliments on the build. I got a good bit done this past week and it's really taking form. Trailblazer, I will probably post info in the enclosure section once I'm done but if you have any questions feel free to ask. I can even send you my initial drawing plans, budget, and hours to give you an idea. It's my first time building but it's turning out to be better than I expected. There's a few things i would do different looking back on it but not too much. Since my last post, I made the 3D backgrounds, made plant holders, bought fake plants, and assembled and attached the front frame. Next is to add light fixtures, prime and paint the outside...

[Derek Roddy]

Yeah cages are pimp. Ever think about doing it for a side business?

Again, don't worry about "what would sale for more". Who knows, by the time you actually get something acclimated, etc for eggs....be a season or 2 and you can't predict what the market will do with snakes that reproduce readily and are easy to hatch.

Get whatcha like

D

[phassin]

Derek, I have toyed with the idea of doing them as side projects for others, but to be honest it would take too much time and the payoff would be low. Just the material costs alone is already around $500 and growing. I wouldn't be charging enough to make it worth doing. Plus I already teach jiu jitsu on the side.

I am getting close to completion now, but I have to get this final stretch done before June 4th (Repticon Charlotte). Time is getting really short. The outside is painted and the lights have been installed. The lights are pretty sweet as they come equipped with a touch sensitive dimmer, though I wish I had spent the extra money to get LED instead of Xenon as they do radiate a good bit of heat. Routing the corners of the enclosures was a big plus as well. It gives the whole set up a much nicer look and didn't take more than 15 minutes to do.

Next step is to hide light cables, cut and sand aluminum rails, and cut acrylic doors to size. That's the plan on Saturday. Here's some photos:

[phassin]

Alright the build is done!!!! Well sort of. I have is set up and my boy is now stationed in his new home. I still have to set up the thermostat and figure out how to fine tune the temperature gradient. It's fine for right now but I think I'm going to buy some heat tape or rope and put it under a hide. I also have to add some logs for climbing and probably some more fake plants.

I'm going to put together a bunch of info and put a long post in the enclosure thread, but for now here's what the final turn out looks like:

[EL Ziggy]

Very nice Phassin. Can I get a set of those perches? Your snake and enclosure look great. On an off subject tangent you teach Jiu-Jitsu? That's great. I wish I could find some good private lessons here in Atlanta. I haven't trained BJJ in a while but I sure do miss it. I'm trying Krav Maga now and it's pretty fun too. It's been a minute since I've done combatives but it feels good to blow the dust off these old bones. :)

[phassin]

Zig, making those perches is really easy. Just a couple of 1"x1" pillars, plywood and glue/nails.

Oh man Atlanta has some of the best jiu jitsu on the east coast. You have Alliance and Traven headquarters there! I'm sure you can find some schools near you with awesome training. I've been teaching for a little over a year and a half now and I love it. I went to Brazil a few times to train in Rio and I'm pretty sure I'm in it for life now. Hit me up if you're ever in Charlotte and you can throw a gi on :) I haven't tried Krav yet but I've seen it a good bit. That stuff can be brutal! The Israeli military training techniques are ridiculously intense.

[EL Ziggy]

Zig, making those perches is really easy. Just a couple of 1"x1" pillars, plywood and glue/nails.

Oh man Atlanta has some of the best jiu jitsu on the east coast. You have Alliance and Traven headquarters there! I'm sure you can find some schools near you with awesome training. I've been teaching for a little over a year and a half now and I love it. I went to Brazil a few times to train in Rio and I'm pretty sure I'm in it for life now. Hit me up if you're ever in Charlotte and you can throw a gi on :) I haven't tried Krav yet but I've seen it a good bit. That stuff can be brutal! The Israeli military training techniques are ridiculously intense.

Alliance is where I used to train. Professor Jacare was amazing. I know Roberto Traven has a gym here too but I haven't been over to his place. I've got some travels planned for Charlotte later this year. I'll keep you in mind. :)

[phassin]

Oh nice!! Ha that's my jag carpet's name. Jacare. Though he was named after the other Jacare (Souza). I met the Alliance Jacare a few years ago. You are correct; he is amazing. You ever train with Daniel Donahue? Blonde haired guy around 170 pounds or so. Purple belt now. I competed against him in February. He beat me in the semi finals. He's a phenom. One of the top purples on the east coast.

[Albert Clark]

Hey! i studied under Sensei Pereria here in the Bronx. Tremont school of judo and jiu jitsu. Also under Carlos Farell in my Tae kwon do hey day. LOL. Heights Karate institute in Manhattan.

[phassin]

Nice Albert! Here I was thinking I was gonna talk snakes on the snake and low and behold there's a bunch of grapplers! It's my perfect sanctuary.....

[Albert Clark]

Back on track, those enclosures really look professional! Great craftsmanship.

[phassin]

Thanks man :)

[macandchz]

i can't believe you are building such a wonderful looking enclosure! it's going to be great when it's done. love the picture of the "yawn"- makes you want to get him a mouse right away!

[phassin]

Alright so I went to my first Repticon show ever looking for a female for my project and I came out empty! Not knowing what to expect, I thought I would have a nice selection of carpets to choose from while in reality there was one adult female and probably three or four babies. I decided to keep looking and I checked online to find a lovely adult female on kingsnake. I looked around a bit and figured she's the one. Pictures to come soon :)

BTW Repticon is sweet. I'll definitely be going back at some point. My girlfriend ended up buying a cute little Tessera Corn. She's tiny! They had some other awesome snakes, even if 90% of the selection was boas or balls. The most impressive animals were the massive tegus and monitors though. Some of them didn't even look real to me lol.

On a different topic, my jag has been doing really well in his new enclosure. He's using all of the hides I've laid out and I've added a few live plants to keep oxygen/humidity levels up. One odd thing is he doesn't ever seem to use the hot spots. I'm going to add a UTH under one hide because the I worry he won't use the basking spot as it may be too open a location for him to get comfortable. I was hoping the CHE would heat inside his hide a bit more, but he stays way in the back anyways where the temp is probably hovering around 78-82 F depending on my room temp.

[EL Ziggy]

Do you have a perch underneath the CHE? If he has a basking spot of about 90 available and the ambient temps are 78-82 that sounds pretty good. Can't wait to see your female.

[phassin]

Yea there is a perch underneath the CHE and it was around 92, but I think my room temp was pretty low so I need to regulate a bit. Because the perch heights are different for each enclosure, I can't regulate both off of the same thermostat and I think I'm going to get a pair of dimmers.

I can't wait to post the girl! She arrives Tuesday so I'll get a good pic then, but from what I saw she's very clean and very yellow.

[phassin]

Alright she just arrived! She's super calm and exploratory. She hasn't shed in a little over a month so she's not as bright right now but this is her. She's in a temporary cage at my parents (they live nearby and my mom was available to get her off the doorstep) until I can get off work and bring her home. Now I need a name!

[EL Ziggy]

Congrats Phassin. That's a nice looking carpet. How old is she and how's her temperament?

[phassin]

Thanks Zig. She's a little over 2 years old and about 5 feet long. Her temperament is great so far. Completely docile during the drive and transfer to her cage (I did hold her for a few guilty minutes :D ). She's been exploring her new environment and seems to be adjusting well.

[shaunyboy]

ive found irian jags colour up well and look great until they hit roughly 5 years old,then their yellow tends to wash out and turn a creamy dull white colour

high quality diamond jungle jags are my favorite combo,using a diamond jungle x a high quality jag

the Gamma jag bloodline imo are the best jags out there

MDT on here has one,the lucky guy :cool:

jag x jag will give jags,siblings and you will get some leucistic hatchlings,that usually die in the egg or at best a few hours out the egg,as far as i'm aware a leucy jag has never survived

cheers shaun

[phassin]

Shaun I almost went with a pretty jungle diamond female I saw for sale. You know.... I think I probably could have gotten some beautiful little babies out if her, but I think in my heart I wanted a jungle carpet Python in my collection next. The girl I got has a vandevetner bloodline (I think with futo as well) and has a strong, clean yellow color and I really like it. I do agree though that th gammas are out of this world. MDT is a lucky guy.

[phassin]

I picked out a name for the new girl. She is now Madam Curi for her extra curious nature.

When I had her in her cage the first day, I had took out my boy, Jacaré and as soon as she saw him, she went bananas! I didn't think carpets were social so I was surprised to see her reaction. She was right up on the glass just staring at him. I let her out so she could great him and they seemed to get along great. After 15 minutes of smelling each other, she slithered right back into her cage and that was that. Very cool to see.

She shed in my car for the first time so I finally got some pictures of her nice coat.

[EL Ziggy]

She's looking great phassin.

[phassin]

Another snake added to the collection. I actually spoke with a big time breeder and was about to buy a snake. I told him about my project and he told me it was a bad idea because the babies would "probably look like sh*t".... So i decided to not buy from him lol and found this little guy on discount! VPI and Mutton lines. His parents look really nice. I still gotta name him.

[sattva]

There is just something about a Carpet that is so different then any other snake... Very cool...

[EL Ziggy]

You're on a roll Phassin. Congrats on adding another gem added to your collection.

[franks]

Morelia is an addiction.

[EL Ziggy]

Morelia is an addiction.

Ain't that the truth?! :)

[phassin]

Seriously it is an addiction! Im done checking kingsnake! I'm at full capacity currently so I can't get another one... I can't believe my friends and family haven't started to question my judgement... I'm pretty sure I will have my hands full.

Oh and his new name is Egbert!

[EL Ziggy]

Egbert is a GREAT name. :)

[phassin]

Thanks Zig! Shredder was already taken so I had to think of something else.

[phassin]

It's been a while since I have updated my project. A lot has happened in the past month that I would like to document as it has been quite the learning experience. I started taking the snakes off of food beginning of December to prep them for the breeding season. Everything had been going well. MC has grown substantially. I started to drop night time temps to the 70s. All was well....... until I put the snakes together in the female cage. It became obvious very quickly that the female was combative. She was slithering over the top of the male (pushing his head down) and lifting the first third of her body really high up. I had never seen this before... Though I know from what people have said that two male carpets will "wrestle" when getting ready to breed. Uh oh.... Oddly enough the male in the cage kept trying to use his spurs to stimulate the "female". He's clearly trying to breed... I took out my probing kit, grabbed the "female" and checked..... 6 scales deep. Could go either way.

At this point I contacted several well known breeders to see if they knew what the hell was going on because I was all kinds of confused. I got tons of support and decided I would double check my probe depth and got 8-9 scales deep on my second and third attempt.... It's a male. I went ahead and checked my other snake as well because at this point who knows what is going on. He was at 8 scales. Looks like this breeding season is done for me already.

That's the bad news. I was pretty upset when I found all this out but I learned something new that I guess is inevitable. Be skeptical what a seller tells you about the gender of a snake, especially if it's not the breeder. The guy told me he probed the snake himself. I find that hard to believe. When I bought it, I didn't have a kit to check myself and just never got around to it. That won't happen again.

There is an upside to the story, though. I was able to sell the male within a week and get some of my money back (though not all). I started looking for a new female for next year and was fortunate enough to talk to a guy I have bought from in the past. He was looking to sell a real nice Mutton JCP (and she's had two successful clutches). As of right now I have a verbal confirmation on the sale but we're waiting for the weather to warm up a little bit before the snake is shipped. I'm really really excited to get her! The pics of her online are amazing! I can't believe he's selling her to be honest... Pics will probably follow in the next week or two.

[jossh27]

I not sure what kind of carpet ssnakess user MDT has but its frigging spectacular- I'd suggest seeking him out and asking what kind it is. Definitely one of the most brilliant yellows I've ever saw

[EL Ziggy]

Glad it all worked out for you phassin. Looking forward to those pics too. :)

[phassin]

I not sure what kind of carpet ssnakess user MDT has but its frigging spectacular- I'd suggest seeking him out and asking what kind it is. Definitely one of the most brilliant yellows I've ever saw

Yea MDT has some amazing snakes. His Gamma line female is a gem. I would love to have a snake from the guy who produced the Gamma line as he has certainly some of the prettiest carpets out there.

[phassin]

New girl in her cage! She looks amazing! Bigger than I expected too. I'll have to wait for her to calm down to get some better pics. I didn't want to mess with her too much.

Now I gotta name her...

[EL Ziggy]

Very nice jungle phassin. She is smokin! I LOVE carpets!

[phassin]

Thanks Zig! She finally stayed put for me to get a good pic of her stretched out. Right after I got it, she turned around and zipped right under a hide lol.

[phassin]

Got some new pics of Egbert after his latest shed. He is just getting brighter and brighter! I can't wait to see what he can do in some future breeding projects.

[EL Ziggy]

You've got some great jungles to work with phassin. I'm sure you'll produce some stunners with that pair!