Morelets Crocodiles

[sirtalis]

Gosh, I've been thinking about buying a crocodilian in the next few years, anyway, I saw this ad on Kingsnake, so tempted lol, the Camaro I've been looking at may be put off if I end up buying a pair or trio. Let me know if I have care requirements up to par, A morelets can grow 8 feet+ in length, meaning it would need a 16-24Lx8Wx?H foot enclosure? A basking spot around 120-140 f? I keep my peacock monitor at 125 f so I would assume a crocodilian would need a similar range? Food would be a mix of whole mammals/bird/fish? I'd probably do 50% rats/guinea pigs/rabbits/ 25% various whole fish/25% and the last bit would be a mix of mazuri croc diet, birds (like quail and chickens), insects maybe? What substrate would be suitable, I would think a sand/soil mix would work well? What else should I think about before buying a crocodilian? I would think that a second person should always be around when you deal with a croc over 4 feet in length? Sorry there is not much info on these guys that I can find I have quite a few friends in the reptile community so I'll always be able to have a second or third person around. My final question is how is the temperament of these guys, how are they as a first crocodilian, I've heard that cuviars caiman are a poor choice for a first because of their high aggression. If this is a poor choice for a first crocodilian what species is better? I live in Texas so American alligators are out of the question, I've seen a few spectacled caimans for sale but I've heard that they generally become more aggressive as they age.

Kingsnake.com Classifieds: 6 young black morelets (http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=119&de=1140058)

[Albert Clark]

Wow! Actually they do look kind of intriguing. i cant offer up any helpful husbandry tips at all. I will say please do all your research pro's and con"s before pulling the trigger. They are pretty expensive too. I would think they need more room and quite possibly their own room. Good luck with the research.

[sirtalis]

Thanks, I live in Texas and I would plan an outdoor pond type enclosure with a smaller enclosure in the house in case it ever got to cold. I wonder if they keep the coloration into adulthood? Most all black reptiles seem to loose the intensity, BHB's night Niles are brown now (and incredibly obese and will probably never breed :p)

[chairman]

Haven't owned crocs but did extensive research into possibly getting a gator.

The "general rule" for crocs is an enclosure that is 1.5 x their adult length by 3 x their adult length plus a water area of equal size. So a 24' x 24' that is half water should work.

Your feeding plans sound fine.

I heard that gators were among the best first crocs because they're a little more laid back than the others but you've already said they're not allowed in TX. I was pointed in the direction of the dwarf crocs as the next best beginner crocs. It isn't like any of them are able to be handled, you just need an enclosure that can isolate them temporarily while you maintain land or water and you need to condition them to relocate in response to certain triggers (I heard that food was best).

But hopefully someone with hands-on experience can chime in.

[Nightflight99]

The timing of this thread is ironic--a friend of mine is sending me a (regular-colored) yearling C. moreletii that is scheduled to arrive tomorrow. I'll grab some shots of him before he goes into quarantine. Crocodilians aren't necessarily difficult to keep, but they are relatively high-maintenance and obviously require a significant amount of space.

[Tsubaki]

Beautiful! I will never have the room for one of these without sacrificing my entire backyard unfortunately.. City problems! :D

[jpsteele80]

Make sure you have the proper permits in Texas, they love to make examples of people that don't follow the law here

[sirtalis]

@jpsteele true that lol, thanks for the replies everyone

[PatrickT]

i dont think this should be kept as pets. they get almost 4 m long.

[sirtalis]

True, but a reticulated python can grow to over 20 feet

[Nightflight99]

i dont think this should be kept as pets. they get almost 4 m long.
I agree that they make poor "pets," but there are certainly people who have the experience and necessary resources to properly keep crocodilians.

[PatrickT]

True, but a reticulated python can grow to over 20 feet

i highly doubt that a massive reticulated python should be kept as private pet as well.

[PatrickT]

I agree that they make poor "pets," but there are certainly people who have the experience and necessary resources to properly keep crocodilians.

i know but we both may agree thats maybe like 0.1% of people who want own one. im fine with palesuchus ...but a 4m animal far out of the comfort zone.

[Nightflight99]

i know but we both may agree thats maybe like 0.1% of people who want own one. im fine with palesuchus ...but a 4m animal far out of the comfort zone.
I'm not so sure that the percentage of keepers who are able to provide a suitable environment for any animal is particularly relevant, and I strongly disagree with the idea that a given species should not be kept for that reason. If a keeper is able to properly maintain species xyz, then there is absolutely no reason why that species shouldn't be kept. Just because the average Joe can't, doesn't mean that no one should.

[Nightflight99]

i highly doubt that a massive reticulated python should be kept as private pet as well.
Define "private pet," please. Does this mean that you oppose the keeping of large constrictors by anyone who is not a zoological institution? Why? And where do you draw the line: does the institution have to be accredited or will a regular privately-owned zoo suffice? What exactly is the difference between a dedicated private keeper and a zoological institution as far as the health of the animal is concerned? Is it impossible for a private individual to properly keep a large constrictor?

Having worked with reptiles both professionally and privately for quite some time, I'm curious to hear what your reasoning behind this is.

[PatrickT]

Many people want such animals because they are "cool". People who own reptiles get attacked from media in germany. The reason behind this is that again and again some idiots did stuff that ruined it for evryone.

We had a taipan bite on a parking lot in Hamm. We had a monocel cobra running wild in a apartment complex, a caiman in a lake and a crocodile in a river. The media totally snapped because of this and parties here want ban reptile keeping.

Crocodiles are not lizards. I wouldn´t even classify them as reptiles since their are archosaurs and more close to birds. Their intelligence is very high and they are very fast and powerful. People want them because they look cool. How many here know a corcodile is the only animals next to horses that are able to galopping?

We have a zoo in Zella-Mehlis where they have many crocs. Including a massive Mississippi Alligator (his name is Cesar and he is 300 Kg) and a Nile Crocodile. I made a practica there for 4 weeks and as amazing it was i had enormous respect for the nile croc. The Alligator was manageable but the nile croc was plain and simple super smart and in no way trustworthy. It is not fully grown yet. Roughly 3.5 m long...but incredible fast and powerful and you could see it planning stuff. I don´t think it should be in private hands because its a desaster in the making.

[MDT]

And yet, there are many individuals who can and do take amazing care of large constrictors, venomous, and crocodilians. It will always be the idiots who can give a bad name to anything. Very similar to firearm ownership in America. There are those who think that only the "professionals" should own, simply because of their designation.
Either you are a responsible (fill in the blank) owner, capable of appropriate housing, husbandry, vet care, expenses, etc....or you are a DB who shouldn't own a stuffed animal, let alone a living, breathing creature.

Just my 0.02 cents...Carry on

[trailblazer295]

In the words of Ron tater salad White "you can't fix stupid. Locally a specific breed of dogs has been banned from the province (state, region). Similar stories the wrong people having the dog which ended up hurting people or animals. Some ruined it for the rest. Reptiles are an easy target for most.

OP I don't know anything helpful to add but post pics if you get one.

[Nightflight99]

@Patrick: I agree with much of what you're saying, but I strongly disagree with your conclusion. We all know that the world is full of idiots, and while that fact certainly needs to be taken into consideration, we shouldn't let those same idiots determine what we should or should not do. Also, Germany isn't unique in the fact that a small minority tends to ruin it for the masses: you can see that same pattern all over the world.

If something can be done properly and responsibly without affecting others, then there is absolutely no reason why qualified individuals shouldn't be able to do so. Like I've said before, just because the average Joe can't, doesn't mean that no one should.

Crocodiles are not lizards. I wouldn´t even classify them as reptiles since their are archosaurs and more close to birds. Their intelligence is very high and they are very fast and powerful. People want them because they look cool. How many here know a corcodile is the only animals next to horses that are able to galopping?

As a biologist, I cannot possibly ignore that statement. :rolleyes: Its actually the other way around: there are a lot of systematists who consider birds to be avian reptiles, because they are archosaurs and are most closely related to crocodilians. The fact that crocodilians are reptiles is heavily supported by tons of data, and there is absolutely no debate about that part among practicing systematists.

It may also be just a tad bit presumptuous to speculate on what other people here may not know.

[PatrickT]

sorry but i just stated what i think about this.

Anyone who wants own such an animal should work with them for a couple of weeks minimum. Same counts for venomous snakes and large constrictors.

[Nightflight99]

sorry but i just stated what i think about this.
Ditto.

Anyone who wants own such an animal should work with them for a couple of weeks minimum. Same counts for venomous snakes and large constrictors.
Agreed, but that statement is quite different from your earlier assessments of "i dont think this should be kept as pets" and "i highly doubt that a massive reticulated python should be kept as private pet as well."

[PatrickT]

Ditto.


Agreed, but that statement is quite different from your earlier assessments of "i dont think this should be kept as pets" and "i highly doubt that a massive reticulated python should be kept as private pet as well."

well thats what i think. i think its a desaster in the making in many cases.

[Nightflight99]

Gosh, I've been thinking about buying a crocodilian in the next few years, anyway, I saw this ad on Kingsnake, so tempted lol, the Camaro I've been looking at may be put off if I end up buying a pair or trio. Let me know if I have care requirements up to par, A morelets can grow 8 feet+ in length, meaning it would need a 16-24Lx8Wx?H foot enclosure? A basking spot around 120-140 f? I keep my peacock monitor at 125 f so I would assume a crocodilian would need a similar range? Food would be a mix of whole mammals/bird/fish? I'd probably do 50% rats/guinea pigs/rabbits/ 25% various whole fish/25% and the last bit would be a mix of mazuri croc diet, birds (like quail and chickens), insects maybe? What substrate would be suitable, I would think a sand/soil mix would work well? What else should I think about before buying a crocodilian? I would think that a second person should always be around when you deal with a croc over 4 feet in length? Sorry there is not much info on these guys that I can find I have quite a few friends in the reptile community so I'll always be able to have a second or third person around. My final question is how is the temperament of these guys, how are they as a first crocodilian, I've heard that cuviars caiman are a poor choice for a first because of their high aggression. If this is a poor choice for a first crocodilian what species is better? I live in Texas so American alligators are out of the question, I've seen a few spectacled caimans for sale but I've heard that they generally become more aggressive as they age.
Just to get back on topic: Your estimated enclosure size is adequate for an adult specimen. Basically, you'd want a very large room, small building, or an appropriate outdoor enclosure. Crocodilians are usually not very picky about substrate, and a lot of keepers use bare concrete because it is easier to maintain. I've always used a combination of gardening soil, mulch, and wood chips for the land areas. The diet you mentioned would work just fine--I've used a combination of Mazuri, rodents, and raw chicken/fish/beef, which is the same diet that is implemented by a lot of zoos.

As far as the temperament is concerned, it varies greatly. A lot of crocodiles are easier to manage than similar-sized caimans, but once they reach about 5-6 ft, they all have to be treated using similar protocols, which means largely hands-off. There are a few species that are known to be significantly more difficult than others, but Morelet's crocodiles typically tend to fall into the main category of being quite manageable.

People tend to get into keeping crocodilians by using adult size as the main criterion (for obvious reasons), although that is not always the best approach. My recommendation is to get an established juvenile of a species that is relatively easy to manage. Unfortunately, keeping American alligators (Alligator mississippiensis) is either outlawed or heavily regulated in most states, but that would be one of the top choices. The pet trade supplies a lot of caimans, including mostly spectacled caiman (Caiman crocodilus), which ironically tend to have a nasty disposition. The dwarf caimans (genus Paleosuchus) can be a better choice, but I've seen both P. trigonatus and P. palpebrosus that were as easily agitated as the cliche Caiman crocodilus. The disposition can definitely be improved by regular handling from a young age, but there are lots of caimans that never quite lose their highly defensive attitude, so you have to be prepared for the worst (and hope for the best).

[PatrickT]

i heared you should avoid hard , sharb substrate because some crocs tend to damage their nose on it.

[Pogie]

I think those babies are really cute. I wouldn't keep one but that's me lol. But then again I'm the same person that won't ever own a huge snake either, I'm a chicken hehe.
Good luck with them, and please do keep us updated! I want to see them grow :)

[sirtalis]

Thanks everyone, On the topic of what should be a "pet" my uncles neighbor had a hippo and a giraffe for years, eventually the hippo was put down bc it killed a few cattle and was too aggressive/constantly escaping etc to be kept safely, I feel that if a person has the resources to properly house, feed, care for, and have the experiance/knowledge then I think they should (legally of course) get the animal if they can provide a quality life for it then by all means get it. Thats just my opinion though. On the topic of hippos and galloping, I think hippos also gallop but im not a 100% sure

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Where abouts in Texas are you? I'm near Austin.

As stated a 25x25 would be more ideal for the enclosure and probably should be the minimum. 8' would be too small when the adult animal will reach 10-14'. Females are a little smaller but morelet's are actually fairly active. Most crocodilians are, but a lot are kept in too small of enclosures and are just assumed to be lazy animals. No stimulation will cause this. A 16x8' enclosure will literally only allow the animal to spin in place. When it comes to adult crocodilians, bigger is always better.

The basking spot shouldn't really go beyond 100F and I keep mine at 95-97F for all my crocodilians. Outside Texas temps will be ideal, provided shade and cooler waters are available.

Food sounds fine. When it comes to fish, I usually just keep live fish in the enclosure and if they decide to eat them, then so be it. I don't purposely feed fish. Insects for the younger animals would be great, awesome stimulation with minimum risk to the animal.

As for the first crocodilian, there really isn't any. Alligators are pretty docile for the most part but most other crocodilians will likely be flightly when handled. Paleos are neat but they put up a huge fight though the one I just acquired you can actually hold as long as she's just sitting in your hands and you're not forcibly restraining her. My adults you'd die trying.
I've seen docile Specs but never had one that didn't want to kill me when I restrained them.
Basically, get a young one and grow with it as there is really no perfect beginner croc.

I also suspect the color will dull to a grayish color as most adult crocodilians do that are predominantly black. Even the high yellow Morelet's typically start looking like normals once they get older.

For size, a 4' croc is still manageable. The size may sound big but one person can easily deal with it.
Whatever you do, don't put a 4' crocodilian in a 2' high holding enclosure.. You'll never get it out..
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v424/Palustris3/Crocodilian/128887412zijxgu_ph.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Palustris3/media/Crocodilian/128887412zijxgu_ph.jpg.html)

I can actually handle a 7' gator that has an attitude of a dwarf on my own, but once your animal starts to get a decent size, you'll already know what you're in for and it's capabilities. I'd have a fallback for help if needed but you'll not likely need to handle the animal all that often if you build a large enough enclosure. Most of my enclosures, I can typically clean and walk around without worrying about the croc or having to handle it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v424/Palustris3/Crocodilian/utf-8BSU1BRzAwNDYuanBn.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Palustris3/media/Crocodilian/utf-8BSU1BRzAwNDYuanBn.jpg.html)

As for substrate, I'm fond of natural earthened materials. Clay, soil and so on. You can use concrete for the floor on the pond section being unless you have natural clay soil it'll be hard to keep water otherwise. A liner can work too but they're expensive and would likely get holes more often then its worth. It does work for my Dwarfs though but my specs wouldn't allow the use of it. For babies, I'm a fan of stock tanks for outdoor use. You can literally just toss water into it and use large rocks or Planks of wood or fill with dirt and use tubberware for those really small animals.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v424/Palustris3/Crocodilian/male20caiman.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Palustris3/media/Crocodilian/male20caiman.jpg.html)

[Nightflight99]

Good feedback, KrokadilyanGuy3! I was hoping that you were going to post in this thread.

[Aaron_S]

And yet, there are many individuals who can and do take amazing care of large constrictors, venomous, and crocodilians. It will always be the idiots who can give a bad name to anything. Very similar to firearm ownership in America. There are those who think that only the "professionals" should own, simply because of their designation.
Either you are a responsible (fill in the blank) owner, capable of appropriate housing, husbandry, vet care, expenses, etc....or you are a DB who shouldn't own a stuffed animal, let alone a living, breathing creature.

Just my 0.02 cents...Carry on

The only problem is most people think they are in the first group and not the latter.

Otherwise cool stuff! I sometimes wish I lived in Texas purely for the free range of keeping a lot of cool exotics but then I realize that I like my body parts too much haha.

[MDT]

The only problem is most people think they are in the first group and not the latter.

Of course..I mean, I know I am. I don't know about the rest of you bozo's.
;)

[Nightflight99]

Of course..I mean, I know I am. I don't know about the rest of you bozo's.
;)
:p:D:rolleyes::)

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Good feedback, KrokadilyanGuy3! I was hoping that you were going to post in this thread.


Thank you. I saw a new thread in the crocodilian section and got excited.
Don't forget to post pics of the Morelet's you got coming.

[Nightflight99]

Don't forget to post pics of the Morelet's you got coming.
Will do. There was a storm system around one of the major shipping hubs, so we decided to postpone for sometime next week. Better safe than sorry.

[sirtalis]

Thanks ya'll In all honesty I probably will end up not getting one of these. I personally like the normals more and I feel that it will probably end up grey or brown as an adult (like bhb's night niles turned out, ill find the picture I have of the one adult still alive, lemme warn you, its sad) The reason I posted this thread was that i'm having a collection "crisis" I'm not sure if I should go in the direction of giants (crocs/more monitors/burms) or if I want to expand on my naturalistic enclosures and continue with (uroplatus/knob tails/and lechies)

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

You can go natural with giants.

The smaller the enclosure the more you can have though.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v424/Palustris3/Crocodilian/128892144efrxPY_ph.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Palustris3/media/Crocodilian/128892144efrxPY_ph.jpg.html)

[Akuma223]

Thanks ya'll In all honesty I probably will end up not getting one of these. I personally like the normals more and I feel that it will probably end up grey or brown as an adult (like bhb's night niles turned out, ill find the picture I have of the one adult still alive, lemme warn you, its sad) The reason I posted this thread was that i'm having a collection "crisis" I'm not sure if I should go in the direction of giants (crocs/more monitors/burms) or if I want to expand on my naturalistic enclosures and continue with (uroplatus/knob tails/and lechies)

You have a recent pic of one of the night nials? If so Please post it, I've been wanting an update on those poor creatures forever.

[sirtalis]

You have a recent pic of one of the night nials? If so Please post it, I've been wanting an update on those poor creatures forever.

Yeah but its lost somewhere on my computer I will find it but... remember the hypo nile in the "feeding" tub? just a brown version

[sirtalis]

You can go natural with giants.

The smaller the enclosure the more you can have though.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v424/Palustris3/Crocodilian/128892144efrxPY_ph.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Palustris3/media/Crocodilian/128892144efrxPY_ph.jpg.html)

nice... is that on your property?

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Use to be. I had to sell off most of my crocodilians when I moved to Florida. Worst decision ever.

I'm interested in these niles yall are talking about