Hognose Twitching..

[AwesomeGuy376]

So now shes twitching and movine around really fast.. Ive read online about males twitching for breeding and i dont know if its the same for females but its making me nervous.. She just started doing it today out of no where. She did have a prevent-a-mite treatment a week ago, but others on the forums said the effects wouldve happened then.. Is this normal?

[Albert Clark]

I doubt that it's related to the provent a mite that was 1 week ago. If she were going to have a reaction to that it would've been within 24 to 48 hrs. later. Can you move her to a different enclosure temporarily? Is she in a communal enclosure?

[Minkness]

I would need to see a vid of this. But for now I would get her in a sterile tub with paper towels. Give her a good soak, maybe 2, then put her in the tup without any water.

I have heard hogs react poorly to PAM. Hopefully yours will be ok.

[Andy_G]

Please post a video. I have heard of staggered reactions to PAM with western hognose, but for reasons that Albert already touched on, that's not usually the case.

[AwesomeGuy376]

Heres a video- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypSYak0oH5M&feature=youtu.be

I just took her to the reptile shop and they think its because of stress and not neurological.. idk man this seems pretty bad.. These were the same people that told me to treat her with PAM in the first place... Ugh i swear if she dies ima be pissed. Also i feel terrible cause its my fault.. Ugh..

[Albert Clark]

Heres a video- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypSYak0oH5M&feature=youtu.be

I just took her to the reptile shop and they think its because of stress and not neurological.. idk man this seems pretty bad.. These were the same people that told me to treat her with PAM in the first place... Ugh i swear if she dies ima be pissed. Also i feel terrible cause its my fault.. Ugh..

AG, that presentation does look suspicious of a Provent a mite reaction. Sorry to see that. Involuntary jerking and twitching is very suspicious. Unusual to happen so long after the treatment. Main thing is to get her away from the enclosure into a fresh air area and decrease anything that may be stressful. When did the twitching begin? Because if they survive the initial 24 hrs from the time symptoms begin the toxicity wears off considerably. And survivability is very good. Well, PAM is a great mite killer but it has to be used correctly and unfortunately the manufacturer doesn't differentiate in hatchling dose, juvenile dose, and or a adult dose to be used. The main thing is to make sure to keep her in a place where there is fresh air and adequate ventilation. A totally different enclosure for the next 72 hrs. Paper towels and a hide only with a different water dish. It's not your fault. You did the best you could with the information you had. These things happen brother. You had nothing but good intentions and things took a turn we didn't expect. No blame game, just work on getting her better. This is doable!

[RAD House]

I had a garter snake that had a bad reaction to PAM and I hate to tell you but before he passed he was moving in a similar way. If this is the case then you need to move her to a clean tube right away and hope she can pull through. Did you spray her water or an area that does not entirely dry out? If not I would be surprised if the pam caused this after an entire week. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I just want to prepare you for the worst. I will never use PAM on a snake again.

[Minkness]

Definitely looks nuro to me. None of mine have ever exibited such behavior.

Please follow the instructions I posted earlier. If you treated her and had her in her cage with a full water dish, it may have washed into the water and she may have recently taken a drink of the poison.

Good luck man, sending healing vibes your way.

[AwesomeGuy376]

Ugh i feel so awful right now... I dont even know if ill be able to feel comfortable with my boa if she dies.. None the less another snake ever..

[Nightflight99]

Unfortunately, those are very likely symptoms of permethrin poisoning. Your best bet is to leave that snake alone and let it rest (no feeding!). Symptoms are normally quick to develop immediately following exposure, but this is far too pronounced to be an unrelated and coincidental issue.

I would also talk to the owner of the pet shop: regardless of the outcome of this, it would be in their best interest to offer to make up for their poor advice. Granted, it was obviously an unintentional mistake on their part, but they would be well served in accommodating you in some way.

[AwesomeGuy376]

I doubt theyll do anything.. Even today the manager pretty much blamed me like i shouldve known better... This week has been a nightmare.. I swear sometimes i regret even going to the shop and getting the boa knowing all this would happen.. Now if she dies im gonna have an emtpy cage with over $200 worth of equipment.. And ill never have the confidence to own a snake again

[RAD House]

Don't be too hard on yourself most people who have been in the hobby have had a snake die because of a mistake they made. You were trying to do the best thing for your snake based on something that you though was from a reliable source, unfortunately it was not. I think you can learn from this that the more research you do the better off your animals will be. Don't let your other animal suffer because of the loss of this one, and there is a chance that your little hognose may pull through this.

[AwesomeGuy376]

I would never let them suffer. If anything id sell my boa cause i think hed be better off that way.. Or just wait a week and deeply think about if i trust myself with a snake.. Killing one of the easiest snakes to care for is a huge punch to my confidence..

[Albert Clark]

I doubt theyll do anything.. Even today the manager pretty much blamed me like i shouldve known better... This week has been a nightmare.. I swear sometimes i regret even going to the shop and getting the boa knowing all this would happen.. Now if she dies im gonna have an emtpy cage with over $200 worth of equipment.. And ill never have the confidence to own a snake again

Well, don't take a all is lost type of outlook. The main thing is to try and get the hog nose to a well ventilated area and have her try and eliminate as much of the poisoning as possible. She does look to be a animal that is in good shape and has some mass to her where she can overcome the exposure. Time is going to be the biggest indicator of which way this will turn out. You have to try and believe she will pull through. Don't even think about her dying right now bc she hasn't. Fingers crossed and hope alive!

[AwesomeGuy376]

Im just a naturally negative person i guess (bad family past..). I just think realistically. And shes in a new tub with air and isnt doing any better after soaking.. I just feel so bad knowing i did this..

[Nightflight99]

Just sent you a pm. Before you decide to throw the towel, give me a call.

[Albert Clark]

I spoke with the proventamite manufacturer and they said the same things we are all saying to you. Proventamite , if taken in by inhalation can be overcome if after the first 24 hours the animal survives then more than likely they will pull through. If it was swallowed from the contaminated water then that is more serious and potentially fatal. However , even if it was swallowed and the animal survives the first 24 hours after the onset of symptoms some animals will pull through.

[AwesomeGuy376]

Yeah well see... Ugh im so stressed right now.. Its gonna be a sleepless night lol

[AwesomeGuy376]

http://puu.sh/nRIer/e30ca238e0.png

[RAD House]

I would never let them suffer. If anything id sell my boa cause i think hed be better off that way.. Or just wait a week and deeply think about if i trust myself with a snake.. Killing one of the easiest snakes to care for is a huge punch to my confidence..

In this case no matter the level snake the out come could have been the same. You made a mistake, one which many have made before you including myself. I know it is a real bummer and it took a little while for me to accept that the little guy died because of treatment I gave him. At the end of the day this is very tricky situation because this a recommended treatment in our industry, but this seems to happen more often than it should so can you really only blame yourself? I don't think this makes a bad snake owner, as long as you learn from it. Let me put it this way if you do sell your boa there is a chance that it could end up in a worse situation than it is now and certainly with someone who doesn't care about it as much as you seem to.

[AwesomeGuy376]

Thats true.. I really like him.. Now im worried about his safety too with PAM.. Tell you what though, if Vista dies, im sticking with boas... Ill eventually treat myself with a nice young boa when this situation is long over.

[RAD House]

I have noticed that larger snakes tend to handle PAM a lot better than small species.

[AwesomeGuy376]

7 hrs shes still alive.. Still looks terrible

[AwesomeGuy376]

Had a really good talk with nightflight.. I wont be giving up reptiles over this.. The shop is totally at fault for giving me awful advice. Hopfully shell make it, her tremors have slowed down a lot and its been 9 hours. Fingers crossed, lets hope for the best! No matter what experience it is, ill never make this mistake again

[Albert Clark]

Had a really good talk with nightflight.. I wont be giving up reptiles over this.. The shop is totally at fault for giving me awful advice. Hopfully shell make it, her tremors have slowed down a lot and its been 9 hours. Fingers crossed, lets hope for the best! No matter what experience it is, ill never make this mistake again

That's great AG! Thanks nightflight! However, the good news is that Vista is trying to survive. Keep her in a well ventilated area and in a darkened space to keep the stress down. I think the real toxic phase is winding down. Especially if the twitching and jerking movements have slowed. More likely she will survive this! The people at the manufacturer were very forthcoming and they did say most cases are due to the reptile being placed back into the treated enclosure before the permethrin is dry. The survivability is very good in animals that recover after 24 hrs and there is no residual long term effects bc of a exposure. So, let's stay positive and try to get Vista through this. Congrats on the slowing of the twitching.

[Tsubaki]

Glad to read she is doing better, hope she will pull through.

[travesty]

Don't be too hard on yourself. You're just unlucky that your first snake came to you with existing problems. That's a lot to deal with and be new to snakes at the same time. Not totally your fault.

[RAD House]

That is good news she is showing signs of improvement, you are very near to being through the woods on this one. Now before you put her back into her enclosure you must clean everything well. From a bit of research you should do fine cleaning everything with soap and water that is not porous. I would get rid of anything wood based and definitely the bedding you sprayed.

[AwesomeGuy376]

She's still alive 19 hours later but still twitching pretty bad. I already wiped down the cage and changed the substrate. She'll be in the tub until she's cured though.

[Albert Clark]

She's still alive 19 hours later but still twitching pretty bad. I already wiped down the cage and changed the substrate. She'll be in the tub until she's cured though.

Yeah, still twitching and jerking ok. The test of survival is a 24 hr window and as long as she is breathing she will survive. The myriad of fasiculations (twitching, jerking) is variable for when they will completely abate. AG, if you visit the LLL REPTILE website and view their video on the proper application of Natural Chemistry and Proventamite it will be helpful. I tried to link it here but couldn't. One other thing that was relayed by the manufacturer was the overspraying of the enclosure. They say there should only be like a 2 - 3 second duration to spray( proventamite) in a 20"L enclosure. Trust me, we are all crossing our fingers and toes for her! Hang in there.

[jpsteele80]

Yeah with PAM you have to completely let it dry and all the fumes be gone, i wait several hours before i let mine back in when i had to treat for them

[macandchz]

dear awesome guy, i'll say a prayer for your girl tonight. don't give up.

[AwesomeGuy376]

If she survives ill never use PAM with her again.. And thanks for all yalls support, you guys are so helpful :) Lol It sounds crazy but i even went online last night and found all sorts of prayers to try and save her. Not really religious, but if hes listening, hopefully he'll forgive me for what ive done wrong.

Heres an update-
Its been 24 hours. She survived the frame but is still twitching just as much as yesterday.. Im not sure what to think. She is very energetic and twitchy pretty much sums it up. She was VERY calm last night though, and right before i went to bed rarely twitched. So yup, next goal is 48 hours.

Again, thank you all so much

[RAD House]

Yeah with PAM you have to completely let it dry and all the fumes be gone, i wait several hours before i let mine back in when i had to treat for them

This is not always true the garter I treated had a reaction to the stuff when dry. There are several I have talked that have had similar experiences.

I contacted the makers and they were quite rude about it. If you read The label it is pretty vague for a product that could kill an animal. I do not trust this company one bit.

[Albert Clark]

Thanks for the update AG. Glad to hear that she is still fighting! Pretty much she is past the fatality stage and I know it's hard to see her with the neurological effects of the PAM. Just keep her near the fresh air and in a minimum light enclosure. She will eventually stop the fasiculations and recover. Are you providing her with a heat source? She will need that to boost the immune system also. I'm so glad she is past the critical stage now.

[AwesomeGuy376]

Ive heard of these guys dying on day 2? Are sure shes fine? Cause the twitching hasnt improved.. Anyways, yea, she has a heat lamp on a thermostat set for 85. its kinda high cause the hydrofarm thermostat does cycles kinda.. hard to explain. But yeah, still stressed to hell but shes still kickin!

[Albert Clark]

@ MC- When did you speak to the manufacturer? Bc I spoke with a rep last night and they were very friendly and gave me quite a bit of information. I do know your bad experience with PAM and the demise of Xiuhcoati. (So sorry about it), but I think what needs to happen is the manufacturers need to have different chemical concentrations of PAM based on the weight of the animal. Different weights of reptiles should require different concentrations. Hatchlings , juveniles and sub adult and adult reptiles need a weight based concentration of PAM to more safely treat for mites. As it is now it's much more dangerous if the permethrin is used in younger reptiles. It's something that we all need to put in writing as a serious suggestion to the manufacturer. You really can't have a one dose for all reptiles and not take into account the weights of the various ages of reptiles. I know it's a oversight on the manufacturers.

[Albert Clark]

Ive heard of these guys dying on day 2? Are sure shes fine? Cause the twitching hasnt improved.. Anyways, yea, she has a heat lamp on a thermostat set for 85. its kinda high cause the hydrofarm thermostat does cycles kinda.. hard to explain. But yeah, still stressed to hell but shes still kickin!

No, not sure but that is the information given to me from the manufacturer last night. They were very forth coming and were reassuring that there were no lingering effects once the permethrin is out of the body. They didn't specify how long the fasiculations would be either. I am mostly being hopeful with their information.

[AwesomeGuy376]

Well ill hope for the best. Thanks so much for actually calling them though, thats really nice of you :)

[Albert Clark]

Well ill hope for the best. Thanks so much for actually calling them though, thats really nice of you :)

For sure! You're welcome.

[Jim Smith]

AG, I've been following your situation and the support you've been receiving from the members here on ssnakes. As difficult as it has been for you, you did absolutely nothing wrong. To begin with, you sought out advice and guidance of people who you honestly thought were knowledgeable and experienced in what you were asking about. You followed that advice trying to help your snake which I suspect VERY strongly had mites when you bought her. When she started acting strangely, you immediately went to another source asking for help to save her. You've not argued with the people here on the advice they given or tried to defend your decisions, you've listened, learned and acted on that advice. No matter what the outcome of this situation is for your snake, you did everything your thought was best for her. Weird things and mistakes do happen when caring for live animals. From everything I've read, you will be an excellent snake owner, always open to learning and doing the best for your animals. One added thought to keep in mind, by openly asking advice of more experienced herpers, others have followed this story and you can rest assured that other snake owners will also learn from your incident, very probably preventing other similar experiences from using this product on hognose snakes. I wish you and your snake the very best.

[PatrickT]

how is she doing right now? is she getting better?

[Andy_G]

So sorry that this happened. At first it looked like she was just huffing and trying to get the pinkie to bugger off...but that is definitely a reaction to permethrin as previously mentioned. Please try to keep your chin up and move forward and simply learn from this unfortunate mistake. You're doing the best you can and you'll just keep learning on how to tweak things and do better as you go along. I'm a huge advocate of nix as it is so effctive and unless you screw up the concentration it is VERY hard to harm the reptile you're using it on. I have used it on hognose snakes with no ill effects but a great deal of care must be used with this species in patlrticular (as well as a few others) no matter what you use. I don't know if this snake will get much better but it can still live a long and happy life with you.

[AwesomeGuy376]

Tanks you guys so much for the support. Its really gotten me through this. I really love this forum. I sincerely hope that this helps people in the future, and for anyone reading this with my problem, not to use PAM wth hognose. As for the snake updates, shes still alive but twitching frequently. Only time will tell at his point.

[Albert Clark]

GM AG, any update on Vista?

[AwesomeGuy376]

She's still alive but still twitching, just not as much as before. She might actually make it :D

[Albert Clark]

Great! My fingers and toes remain crossed for her. Thx. Stay positive.

[AwesomeGuy376]

Alright its been 48 hours heres an update-
Her twitching has gone down a lot. But shes very slow and inactive which is unlike her.

[Albert Clark]

That's good to hear that the fasiculatons have gotten better. I think that all the spasms and fasiculating has taken quite a bit of her energy reserve and that's probably what we are seeing now. It's like she has been running a marathon literally with all the involuntary contractions and spasms. She probably is entering a recovery phase that will take time to get through. I think we are heading in the right direction.

[SerpentineDream]

Tanks you guys so much for the support. Its really gotten me through this. I really love this forum. I sincerely hope that this helps people in the future, and for anyone reading this with my problem, not to use PAM wth hognose. As for the snake updates, shes still alive but twitching frequently. Only time will tell at his point.

Yes, yes and yes! I had no idea PAM could be so toxic, and to hognose in particular. I will never use that stuff on Diego.

Also glad to hear that there is an alternative. Didn't know about Nix.

BTW, shame on that pet shop for giving you bad, potentially lethal advice and then having the nerve to be snarky to you.

I hope she continues to improve.

[AwesomeGuy376]

Yea i was surprised too tbh. But this whole week has been such a learning experience, how to heal a twitching snake and how to get rid of mites. In the long run the effects will be good as i grow my experience. Its a real shame what happened, but next week shell return to her cage and Rexs mites should be completely gone and everything back to normal! That shop has lost all my business as well, cant have respect for those people anymore after this.. First they sell me a snake with mites and now they almost kill my hoggie. Its wierd cause its a shop that specializes in snakes too..

Update on the Hoggie-
So its been 3 days since the symptoms appeared and im very happy to report that all twitching has stopped. She is still very lazy (but who can blame her), she pretty much just exercised for 2 days straight. I plan on keeping her in her tub for at least a week until im certain the PAM is gone from her enclosure. The enclosure has been wiped down with water and a towel, new substrate was added, and its airing out with the top off and doors open. i plan to keep it this way for at least a week.

[EL Ziggy]

I'm glad everything worked out well for you and the snakes AG.

[Nightflight99]

Those are great news!

[Albert Clark]

Fantastic news AG! That hoggie is a strong girl. I hope you are considering breeding her when she is old enough and well enough.

[macandchz]

dear ag great news about you hoggie! it must have been all those prayers....

[Albert Clark]

Hey AG, how is Vista doing? Any update?

[AwesomeGuy376]

She's completely stopped twitching and seems normal again :D she won't eat but at least she's alive