This is Horrible

[sirtalis]

I know its peta but wow... I thought these guys were relatively respected in the reptile community (not petsmart, the company who supplies them)
Reptiles Suffer, Left to Die at Another Massive PetSmart Supplier Mill (http://investigations.peta.org/reptiles-suffer-petsmart/)

[Albert Clark]

Wow! Really unbelievable. Thanks for sharing that. I guess that's one of the reasons everything at Reptiles by Mack is so cheap and always on sale! Kudos to PETA for their continuing quality control investigations. Can't wait to see USARK's response to this abuse.

[IW17]

I'm the last person to back Peta, but this is pretty sad. Both the abuse of the animals and the effects this can have on responsible breeder sellers.

[Aaron_S]

PETA has already been found guilty of planting or video taping staged events and portraying them as reality.

I'm not saying this was necessarily like that but RBM have put out a statement on their site already about this.

I also DO NOT believe PETA is completely innocent here. They were hired under the premise of being a employee to help clean and feed these animals. Who's to say they purposely left cages dirty for a few days to catch these videos?

Do not believe everything in this video or anything PETA says until further details come out.

[Minkness]

+1 for Aaron

Also, Aaron, where do you see Mack's statement? I went to their site and can't find it.

[Aaron_S]

+1 for Aaron

Also, Aaron, where do you see Mack's statement? I went to their site and can't find it.

I dunno. I've seen screenshots of it posted on fauna.

It's possible it's been removed. They have been really quiet so they could be advised by a legal team to not say anything until further notice.

[sirtalis]

PETA has already been found guilty of planting or video taping staged events and portraying them as reality.

I'm not saying this was necessarily like that but RBM have put out a statement on their site already about this.

I also DO NOT believe PETA is completely innocent here. They were hired under the premise of being a employee to help clean and feed these animals. Who's to say they purposely left cages dirty for a few days to catch these videos?

Do not believe everything in this video or anything PETA says until further details come out.

You've got a point but still...

[sirtalis]

Wow! Really unbelievable. Thanks for sharing that. I guess that's one of the reasons everything at Reptiles by Mack is so cheap and always on sale! Kudos to PETA for their continuing quality control investigations. Can't wait to see USARK's response to this abuse.

Thanks, I almost bought a beardie from them lol so glad I didn't

[Andy_G]

I feel this is quite pertinent in regards to this very topic. I like post # 5 especially.

Info Reptiles By Mack (HORROR VIDEO!!) - FaunaClassifieds (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=567002)

We have to remember that we're talking about an organization who kills/culls SO MANY pets (lots of documentation available if one wanted to google it, and one excellent example posted in that thread, even!) whose ultimate goal is to outright ban the ownership of all pets, not just exotics. The video is horrible, but I urge you to keep things in perspective and remember the source. As hobbyists and pet owners it is NOT in our best interests to support these bone heads. Post #13 is by RBM.

[mysticmoon]

Poor animals, that's so horrible. How hard is it to supply basic needs? This is pure negligence. I agree that PETA isn't always in the right.. but whatever is going on here needs to be investigated and taken care of.
Also, I have a bearded Dragon from petsmart. I got him because when I saw him in the store he was missing toes and a good chunk of his tail, he was also undergrad. Now he is happy and healthy but it is definitely true that petsmart and their suppliers do a ****** job of caring for their animals

[mysticmoon]

Poor animals, that's so horrible. How hard is it to supply basic needs? This is pure negligence. I agree that PETA isn't always in the right.. but whatever is going on here needs to be investigated and taken care of.
Also, I have a bearded Dragon from petsmart. I got him because when I saw him in the store he was missing toes and a good chunk of his tail, he was also underweight. Now he is happy and healthy but it is definitely true that petsmart and their suppliers do a ****** job of caring for their animals

[mysticmoon]

Sorry, didn't mean to post twice

[sirtalis]

I got my first leopard gecko from petsmart when I got him he was underweight and missing his tail looking back I should have bought from an actual breeder

[Aaron_S]

I find it interesting everyone's jump that this is how this company runs everything.

I'm not saying they are innocent by any means because I just don't know yet. I can't trust PETA and I can't get the facts from RBM right now.

What I can use is logic and common sense though.

1. A large company with multiple facilities is in business for many years. Sells to a large chain of pet stores. They would have to have pretty alright livestock to maintain these contracts because why would PetSmart be okay giving refunds to people when animals die 5 second after purchase?

2. How do we know that this facility or this part of the facility isn't the area for sick/injured animals so they don't affect the rest of the them who ARE in good condition?

3. Yes some of those shots don't look well. Infections or what have you but again, we don't know the extent of these. There's no covering that up though to be honest but who's to say they weren't removed from the general populace so they could heal or be seen by a vet? Animals do fight or nip. Beardies are notorious for it.

Questions that need answering. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I simply ask others to reserve judgement until more facts come out.

[mysticmoon]

I got my first leopard gecko from petsmart when I got him he was underweight and missing his tail looking back I should have bought from an actual breeder

I will never again buy an animal from petsmart, but at least we were able to save the critters from their situation and give them good lives.

[mysticmoon]

I find it interesting everyone's jump that this is how this company runs everything.

I'm not saying they are innocent by any means because I just don't know yet. I can't trust PETA and I can't get the facts from RBM right now.

What I can use is logic and common sense though.

1. A large company with multiple facilities is in business for many years. Sells to a large chain of pet stores. They would have to have pretty alright livestock to maintain these contracts because why would PetSmart be okay giving refunds to people when animals die 5 second after purchase?

2. How do we know that this facility or this part of the facility isn't the area for sick/injured animals so they don't affect the rest of the them who ARE in good condition?

3. Yes some of those shots don't look well. Infections or what have you but again, we don't know the extent of these. There's no covering that up though to be honest but who's to say they weren't removed from the general populace so they could heal or be seen by a vet? Animals do fight or nip. Beardies are notorious for it.

Questions that need answering. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I simply ask others to reserve judgement until more facts come out.

Good point

[DollysMom]

That's music to my ears, Aaron. I can't really say it better. Agree, agree, agree.

[sirtalis]

^^ that makes sense lol

[EL Ziggy]

All of the facts may not be known, so I may be wrong, but this appears to be a clear case of neglect and abuse. I know PETA has some cruel and inhumane practices of their own but I doubt this entire story is a fabrication and that PETA insiders infiltrated an otherwise respectable company and sabotaged it to stage their narrative. I actually had a positive experience with RBM, so they can't be all bad, but if even the slightest amount of this information is true then it's disgraceful and I would never support them again.

[RAD House]

I will start by saying that Peta has been known to over exaggerate and even lie, but the few things that made me sick to my stomach in this video seem pretty hard to fake. For example all the anoles struggling and dying on the home made traps, and secondly the injured beardie clips. In RBM press release they state that the animals are checked once a week by a trained vet, but the beardie with severed rotting arm still attached to its body has been in that condition for more than a week in my opinion, not to mention the several with old healed disfigurements. On top of this they do not deny that this in its entirety is the reality. I have been following this on a few forums over the last few weeks and the general down playing of these atrocities is pretty disturbing.
One popular argument has been that wholesalers have been around since the beginning and have made this hobby what it is. How does that at all make it acceptable in the treatment of the animals? The people who started and own these companies have a responsibility to the health and care of these animals. Maybe it is time that the industry makes some changes for the betterment of the animals and if the larger companies are not able to do this than maybe they don’t deserve the privilege to work with these animals and make a living from them. I even saw a person suggest that if we do not like the truth of the treatment of these imported animals that we do not belong in the hobby. This is about as ridiculous as saying I shouldn’t live in America if I disagree with the treatment of Native Americans.
The other argument is that this is probably only the case with a few animals or that we were only shown the sick animals. The burden of proof now lies on the large companies to prove this is not how any of their animals are treated in my opinion, until then the only proof I have seen is not satisfactory. Even if it is a few animals, in those conditions the number is irrelevant. I think the sick animal argument doesn’t hold much water as the condition of some of the animals has little to do with sickness and if they are not getting treatment, than why should anyone believe any of the animals are.
Others argue that if we don’t stand behind these large companies then the government is going to take away all of our animals, in a divide and conquer type attack. I think this is ridiculous, the situations that gives the anti-pet movement any steam mostly stems from these large importers. It has been pretty well documented that the invasion that is happening in the everglades stems from the release of a large accidental release of animals from wholesalers during the hurricane. The hobby has gotten some pretty bad press and now this, talk about having snot on your face.
I do believe that there is a place for large reptile breeders and wholesalers in the community, but we have to hold them to reasonable standards. The scary thing about all this is that RBM is supposed to be one of the good ones.

[mysticmoon]

I will start by saying that Peta has been known to over exaggerate and even lie, but the few things that made me sick to my stomach in this video seem pretty hard to fake. For example all the anoles struggling and dying on the home made traps, and secondly the injured beardie clips. In RBM press release they state that the animals are checked once a week by a trained vet, but the beardie with severed rotting arm still attached to its body has been in that condition for more than a week in my opinion, not to mention the several with old healed disfigurements. On top of this they do not deny that this in its entirety is the reality. I have been following this on a few forums over the last few weeks and the general down playing of these atrocities is pretty disturbing.
One popular argument has been that wholesalers have been around since the beginning and have made this hobby what it is. How does that at all make it acceptable in the treatment of the animals? The people who started and own these companies have a responsibility to the health and care of these animals. Maybe it is time that the industry makes some changes for the betterment of the animals and if the larger companies are not able to do this than maybe they don’t deserve the privilege to work with these animals and make a living from them. I even saw a person suggest that if we do not like the truth of the treatment of these imported animals that we do not belong in the hobby. This is about as ridiculous as saying I shouldn’t live in America if I disagree with the treatment of Native Americans.
The other argument is that this is probably only the case with a few animals or that we were only shown the sick animals. The burden of proof now lies on the large companies to prove this is not how any of their animals are treated in my opinion, until then the only proof I have seen is not satisfactory. Even if it is a few animals, in those conditions the number is irrelevant. I think the sick animal argument doesn’t hold much water as the condition of some of the animals has little to do with sickness and if they are not getting treatment, than why should anyone believe any of the animals are.
Others argue that if we don’t stand behind these large companies then the government is going to take away all of our animals, in a divide and conquer type attack. I think this is ridiculous, the situations that gives the anti-pet movement any steam mostly stems from these large importers. It has been pretty well documented that the invasion that is happening in the everglades stems from the release of a large accidental release of animals from wholesalers during the hurricane. The hobby has gotten some pretty bad press and now this, talk about having snot on your face.
I do believe that there is a place for large reptile breeders and wholesalers in the community, but we have to hold them to reasonable standards. The scary thing about all this is that RBM is supposed to be one of the good ones.

I completely agree. Well said, Corney.

[dave himself]

As Aaron has said Peta has been known to be a wee bit economical with the truth

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j342/davy64/snakes/FB_IMG_1457093370779.jpg (http://s1081.photobucket.com/user/davy64/media/snakes/FB_IMG_1457093370779.jpg.html)

I'll just sit on the fence on this one until all the facts are known thanks :)

[Bandit]

I'm interested in finding out all of the facts behind this. No matter who is at fault here, it's a shame that this happens to the animals.

[AwesomeGuy376]

As its really obvious PETA exaggerates things, I still think that reptile negligence is a big problem. Like the guy with the leopard gecko that said it was missing it's tail from petsmart. I really wouldn't mind taking in animals like that and saving them.. I wish more people would to be honest, a healthy reptile is very nice to have, but at the same time I can't help but think I could be trying to save one that needs help. Not saying every reptile I buy will be a rescue, but I'd like to at least try to help a couple. It'd be nice if every collector tried to help at least one reptile from places like that.

[Tiny Boidae]

As its really obvious PETA exaggerates things, I still think that reptile negligence is a big problem. Like the guy with the leopard gecko that said it was missing it's tail from petsmart. I really wouldn't mind taking in animals like that and saving them.. I wish more people would to be honest, a healthy reptile is very nice to have, but at the same time I can't help but think I could be trying to save one that needs help. Not saying every reptile I buy will be a rescue, but I'd like to at least try to help a couple. It'd be nice if every collector tried to help at least one reptile from places like that.

And in doing so you give the places who does it an excuse to continue it. By buying a neglected animal, two more take its place. Some places rely on these "sympathy" purchases to sell animals, as I've seen with a pet store close to me. It's a bad situation, but the only way to really end it is to use our economic system against them. If I buy from a competitor who sells healthy animals, they have no choice but to start taking care of them better.

If you want to buy a rescue animal, search for some local reptile rescues near you (like Arrowhead is one kinda close to me), and that way you can rehome animals in need without supporting the people who are getting away with negligence.

[AwesomeGuy376]

Yea I suppose that's very true

[Tiny Boidae]

I was planning on buying my animal from RBM, so I looked into the situation and wanted to point out a red flag. Before this incident, RBM has had praise thrown at them and I'd be hard-pressed to find any criticism before this PETA leak. Now, bear in mind, that it's typically the unhappy customer that yells the loudest. After the PETA incident though, they've been slapped with 1-star reviews and outrageous propaganda from people who haven't even bought an animal from them. Like I just scrolled through the 19 google reviews and carefully read each one. All of the ones before the PETA incident left praise about the ANIMAL THEY BOUGHT. All the ones after were one star reviews slamming the company (most mentioned PETA) and not one mentioned buying any animal from there.

I might be grasping at straws here, but I'd thought to point this out before we go pointing fingers.

Edit: And to further my point about how unreliable these 1-star reviews are, let me quote both sides of the stick here.

☆☆☆☆☆ Reviews:

Love love love this place and these people. Our gorgeous Mack snow, Flo, has been a happy addition to our gecko family. (3 months ago)

Just purchased a juvenile leopard gecko from here. The sales associate was very responsive and helped me with my questions. Stayed on top of shipping issues. Very good experience. Gecko is beautiful beyond words. Thank you so much. (5 months ago)

☆ Reviews:

There is a special place in hell for these people. I hope you all suffer.! karma is a b**ch! (In the last week)

NEVER GO HERE. All workers should be put in jail. (In the last week)

ANIMALS ARE DYING UNDER REPTILES BY MACKS CARE AND THE ILL TORTURED TO DEATH.DO NOT BUY ANIMALS BY THESE SICK PEOPLE. VISIT PETSMART ON FACEBOOK AND JOIN THE FOLLOWING TO SUPPORT SHUTTING THIS DISTRIBUTOR DOWN WHO PETSMART HAS PURCHASED THEIR INVENTORY FROM. IF YOU ARE SEARCHING FOR A PARTICULAR ANIMAL PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE SEARCH FOR A LOCAL REPUTABLE BREEDER WHO SPECIALIZES IN THE SPECIES YOU ARE SEARCHING FOR. DO NOT SUPPORT THESE SCUM BAGS, THIS FACILITY NEEDS TO BE CLOSED. (In the last week)

This place does not care about animal cruelty and actually, they promote it everyday. Do NOT buy from these murderers. They do not care about the reptiles luves, comfort, or well being. All they are about is taking your money. Please do not support them at all, we need to run them out of business. They are sick people and need to be held accountable for what PETA has exposed them as whoch is cruel, careless, and killers. (in the last week)

A PETA exposé reveals suffering animals warehoused in filthy conditions at Reptiles by Mack, yet another major supplier to PetSmart and many other stores. Tens of thousands of frogs, lizards, turtles, snakes, bearded dragons, and other reptiles were confined to barren, filthy, crowded plastic tubs and deprived of even the most basic care, such as fresh food and water, heat and UV lamps, and veterinary attention. Emaciated, lethargic animals were often found by PETA's eyewitnesses, who also saw hundreds of animals who had died or been killed. Is this true? and why is it all over the net? (in the last week)

Is everything PETA said true? I need to know because animals should never be treated as is shown in that video. It's horrid. (in the last week)

When you buy a tortoise or any kind of animals they choose the best/healthy looking one and sale them to you and this is totally wrong why because they abuse and mistreat their animals and i thinking these guys are lairs and then PETA had just came out with a video of behind the scenes. Unacceptable i seen these guys in Narbc they just smile at you as if they treat their animals with respect. (in the last week)

Do NOT support this business!! All employees and staff do NOT care about the humanity of animals and treat reptiles worse than garbage!! I am traumatized from the videos I saw (in the last week)

PETA has red flagged Reptiles By Mark for the horrible way the treat the reptiles. Please consider before making a purchase from a place well known for abusing animals. That goes for the all the stores they supply as well like Petco. (in the last week)

...That was only the tip of the iceberg. I am not lying to you all, these reviews are there for any one to see. I haven't bought an animal there yet and do have a plan B I plan on exhausting, so I consider myself kinda on the fence about this. I'm just having such a hard time believing how there haven't been very many bad reviews on them before this.

[Minkness]

I'm with you Tiny. I researched them as well BEFORE this crap came about because they have some harder to find stuff. I emailed back and forth a bit a while ago about crock skinks and so forth. I can't speak for the actual quality of their facility, but ther customer service and knowledge were spot on. I'm waiting to see further reports and evidence before making any real judgement.

Also, keep in mind that PETA actually made violent threats on a dog show some years back. Had every owner in fear to the point they locked their cages with padlocks, afraid their animals wpuld be stollen. Then someone pulled the fire alarm and cause all kinds of havoc and chaos. Thank goodness no one got hurt, but PETA are 'terrorists'. People with unrealistic, extreme points of view who use fear, gore, and slander to their advantage.

Some places should be put out of business, sure, but not sure that Mack is ine of them. =/

[Aaron_S]

I will start by saying that Peta has been known to over exaggerate and even lie, but the few things that made me sick to my stomach in this video seem pretty hard to fake. For example all the anoles struggling and dying on the home made traps, and secondly the injured beardie clips. In RBM press release they state that the animals are checked once a week by a trained vet, but the beardie with severed rotting arm still attached to its body has been in that condition for more than a week in my opinion, not to mention the several with old healed disfigurements. On top of this they do not deny that this in its entirety is the reality. I have been following this on a few forums over the last few weeks and the general down playing of these atrocities is pretty disturbing.
One popular argument has been that wholesalers have been around since the beginning and have made this hobby what it is. How does that at all make it acceptable in the treatment of the animals? The people who started and own these companies have a responsibility to the health and care of these animals. Maybe it is time that the industry makes some changes for the betterment of the animals and if the larger companies are not able to do this than maybe they don’t deserve the privilege to work with these animals and make a living from them. I even saw a person suggest that if we do not like the truth of the treatment of these imported animals that we do not belong in the hobby. This is about as ridiculous as saying I shouldn’t live in America if I disagree with the treatment of Native Americans.
The other argument is that this is probably only the case with a few animals or that we were only shown the sick animals. The burden of proof now lies on the large companies to prove this is not how any of their animals are treated in my opinion, until then the only proof I have seen is not satisfactory. Even if it is a few animals, in those conditions the number is irrelevant. I think the sick animal argument doesn’t hold much water as the condition of some of the animals has little to do with sickness and if they are not getting treatment, than why should anyone believe any of the animals are.
Others argue that if we don’t stand behind these large companies then the government is going to take away all of our animals, in a divide and conquer type attack. I think this is ridiculous, the situations that gives the anti-pet movement any steam mostly stems from these large importers. It has been pretty well documented that the invasion that is happening in the everglades stems from the release of a large accidental release of animals from wholesalers during the hurricane. The hobby has gotten some pretty bad press and now this, talk about having snot on your face.
I do believe that there is a place for large reptile breeders and wholesalers in the community, but we have to hold them to reasonable standards. The scary thing about all this is that RBM is supposed to be one of the good ones.

I agree with a lot here. That defending this business blindly because the government might crush us all if we don't is a silly notion. We just don't have enough of the facts and it looks like we won't for some time. RBM's communication with the public screams legal. My guess is that they are looking into this from a legal standpoint and can't talk about it right now.

Now, to the video. I can't explain beardie limbs rotting as fake. I can say that I wouldn't put it past PETA to construe ANYTHING.

The key thing in this video is that PETA had people from their organization working for RBM. They may have been given too much access. Here's why.

PETA goes to the extreme and from what I gather they aren't above "the suffering of the few for the good of the many". With that said I wouldn't be surprised if they taped anoles to those boards, if they injured beardies and "hid them" in enclosures for the weeks so they became gross looking. Neglected to water some animals for days or a week to get their shot.

They had power to set up this video in some of these ways.

I personally think it's all up in the air until further details come out. If this is truly how RBM runs things then the pitchforks can come out.

[RAD House]

I agree with a lot here. That defending this business blindly because the government might crush us all if we don't is a silly notion. We just don't have enough of the facts and it looks like we won't for some time. RBM's communication with the public screams legal. My guess is that they are looking into this from a legal standpoint and can't talk about it right now.

Now, to the video. I can't explain beardie limbs rotting as fake. I can say that I wouldn't put it past PETA to construe ANYTHING.

The key thing in this video is that PETA had people from their organization working for RBM. They may have been given too much access. Here's why.

PETA goes to the extreme and from what I gather they aren't above "the suffering of the few for the good of the many". With that said I wouldn't be surprised if they taped anoles to those boards, if they injured beardies and "hid them" in enclosures for the weeks so they became gross looking. Neglected to water some animals for days or a week to get their shot.

They had power to set up this video in some of these ways.

I personally think it's all up in the air until further details come out. If this is truly how RBM runs things then the pitchforks can come out.

PETA does some unethical stuff in the form of lies and even small disruptive actions, but to insinuate that they purposely harmed these animals is ludicrous as there is no proof of them doing so in the past. The wholesale reptile business on the other hand is known to have a long history of terrible treatment of the animals they import. I agree that there is most likely some exaggerations but the things that really get to are the ones that speak for themselves. I also do not have any issue with how they got into the building, this method has been used many times before to expose situations that a business is trying to hide from the public.

[Pogie]

PETA lies. They want no animal to be kept by anyone. Even going so far as to make up videos and killing animals in their care. You can find lots of stuff on them.
So those videos could have been made anywhere by anyone at anytime. I would take NOTHING they say as fact. I have heard and read many...MANY things on their "ethics".

I choose not to believe anything they say about this until the courts get it. So I will wait for the facts to come out.

Sorry but PETA just angers me.

[pet_snake_78]

PETA plants were hired to care for the animals. Then the same animals they were hired for are neglected... the obvious conclusion to me is that they intentionally let the animals suffer in order to make their political videos and for which they seemingly took the job to do to begin with. They should be investigated for animal cruelty if this turns out to be the case. I think this videos is required viewing before deciding just how far animal rights nuts will go to, even releasing lions into suburban neighborhoods to make a point. Serpentarium Videos (http://www.capefearserpentarium.com/video-main.html)

[AwesomeGuy376]

*creates anti-peta movement* jkjk :P

[sirtalis]

Its called petakillsanimals lol look for their website :p

[Minkness]

Yup, it's a thing.

I have no idea how PETA is still around after all the other crap they have pulled...

[pet_snake_78]

People need to understand food production, land use, etc, but they do not so organizations such as PETA continue to exist. One of my coworkers used to work on his family farm and always laughed when people said they don't kill animals and only eat vegetation.... he recalled firing up the combine and watching as the predators lurked in the shadows waiting for injured and chopped to pieces animals to become available for them... it kills so many animals the predators have learned to associate the combine sound with a feast. In another case, an organic farmer invited me to come kill or take as many timber rattlesnakes as I could as he wanted them cleared for his new acreage... we cannot exist, especially in modern form, without killing animals.