Why is this considered acceptable?

[sirtalis]

so if I kept a tegu in a 10 gallon critter keeper or a green tree python in an aquarium people would call me out but (no disrespect intended) but the norm for ball pythons is a tub like in the pics, usually a bit bigger. I've heard that they do well in a small space but many people who keep their ball in a large bio active cage gave very healthy large ball pythons that explore and eat regularly (when properly set up) 34637 I mean really?

[Andy_G]

If they thrive in a small bin as well as in a large bioactive enclosure, then isn't the choice of that a matter of taste, practicality, and opinion , and neither right nor wrong? I agree that a large bioactive is very attractive and much more enriching for the owner as well as sometimes the inhabitant, but not always necessarily so..I have a few set up for my cresties as a matter of fact, but they would also do fine in a smaller, sterile enclosure as well. Saying that, if someone is keeping them in an aquarium with an 88 hot spot and dry as a bone, you better believe I would point it out and try to help.

[Humble308]

I have some mixed emotions about this. What I READ is that the BP's do fine and like the smaller space and yada yada...but I often feel like it's an excuse offered by folks who want to keep huge amounts of snakes. The BP's at our shelter are racked like this and they seem to do fine, but personally I offer my snakes larger enclosures and even as babies they use every bit of it. I wouldn't keep one of my own animals in something that size.

To each their own I reckon.

[bigsnakegirl785]

They survive in racks and eat and breed, but I personally would never keep snakes older than hatchlings in racks.

As long as the floor space is adequate, I don't have as many qualms, but I think having space to climb, yes, even for ball pythons (just make them wider and not too far off the ground) is best.

In general, yeah, the idea behind racks is to save space to have more snakes, or at least save space even for a few snakes. I'd rather have a few full-sized enclosures than a bunch of racks. Fatty liver disease and obesity is common in ball pythons, so I think it would be beneficial to give them as much space as you can as well as feeding them a bit less than what we normally do. Not even wild snakes need the amount of food we give to our snakes.

People can do as they wish, if they provide the floor space for their racked snakes and don't keep semi-arboreal or arboreal snakes in racks, it's their prerogative. I have a problem with it when I see stuff like a 6'-7' ratsnake kept in the same size of tub as the one that ball python is in, so that it takes up every square inch of vertical and horizontal space. Or if the snake doesn't have the room to get off the heat source. If the snake takes up half or more of the floor space, the enclosure is too small, they can't thermoregulate.

I think it's in our best interest to provide the biggest, most enriching enclosures we can. I know a breeder that has hundreds of babies a year and still makes sure all their adults have full-sized enclosures, and they're just one person.

[RAD House]

I think it has to do with understanding the natural history of the animal. A monitor are active hunters in the wild where as both ball pythons and green tree pythons are sit and wait ambush predators. That is why both species of snakes can thrive in a smaller enclosure than what you may think is acceptable for a snake their size. In the case of ball pythons people think they are notoriously finicky eaters, but I think this mainly has to do with husbandry because people who have been in the hobby for a long time seem to have less problems. Most people obsess about temps and humidity but ignore that ball pythons must feel secure. Ball pythons spend a good amount of their time crammed into small spaces. When being collected they are most often found in termite mounds and require a good amount of diggind to get them out. I agree if the animal thrives than who are we to say which method is best as we are all mostly hobbyist. On a side note that tub does look awfully small for a snake that size.

[Minkness]

Well, I'm not a breeder and though I have some of my snakes in tubs, they are an adequate size if not larger than needed with a heat source. I eventually want everyone in display enclosures, but that will take time. I do still want alot of animals, but really don't want racks.

However, if I were indeed a breeder, I would probably go with racks for everything but my personal pets. But they would be spacious for each animal.

Personally I think we need more specialized racks/tubs just for reptiles. Like ones that are long and tall for boas for example.

[Albert Clark]

Well, I don't think it's a question of acceptability. It's a matter of functionality and the responsible keepers desire of a particular appearance. The important factor should be are the needs and requirements of the reptile being met. Proper temperatures, ambient and hot spot. Cool side and warm side and proper humidity. Are the essentials being met? Physical interaction and allowances for excersize and roaming for the animal. It boils down to what we as keepers want for our animals and for ourselves as much as what will be functional for us.

[sirtalis]

Well, I don't think it's a question of acceptability. It's a matter of functionality and the responsible keepers desire of a particular appearance. The important factor should be are the needs and requirements of the reptile being met. Proper temperatures, ambient and hot spot. Cool side and warm side and proper humidity. Are the essentials being met? Physical interaction and allowances for excersize and roaming for the animal. It boils down to what we as keepers want for our animals and for ourselves as much as what will be functional for us.


Totally got you man, I've got no problem with tubs if the animal is properly set up but personally I would always go naturalistc, just personal preference, what bugs me is bhb style cramped

[Aaron_S]

... Fatty liver disease and obesity is common in ball pythons,..

I think this has less to do with enclosure size than it does with diets and moronic people overfeeding snakes. A lot of snakes in general are obese.

I think it has to do with understanding the natural history of the animal. A monitor are active hunters in the wild where as both ball pythons and green tree pythons are sit and wait ambush predators. That is why both species of snakes can thrive in a smaller enclosure than what you may think is acceptable for a snake their size. In the case of ball pythons people think they are notoriously finicky eaters, but I think this mainly has to do with husbandry because people who have been in the hobby for a long time seem to have less problems. Most people obsess about temps and humidity but ignore that ball pythons must feel secure. Ball pythons spend a good amount of their time crammed into small spaces. When being collected they are most often found in termite mounds and require a good amount of diggind to get them out. I agree if the animal thrives than who are we to say which method is best as we are all mostly hobbyist. On a side note that tub does look awfully small for a snake that size.

Well said. Nothing to add to it. I simply agree that as long as the animal is properly cared for then I don't have a problem with a tub, enclosure, aquarium etc.



I will say however, for those who weren't around 2 decades ago tubs are a huge reason that the hobby is where it is today. It really helped get a lot of "hard to keep", "hard to acclimate" and "hard to breed" species in the mainstream.

Here's how it works...tubs and rack systems streamlined keeping. It allowed keepers to dial in humidity, heat, security and diets to learn how to keep species alive and eventually breed. It took out the variables of different substrates, trying to heat too much room or keep humidity up with an overhead heat lamp (one of the few ways to heat an enclosure 20 years ago), sickness and illnesses and etc.

Since then, especially in the previous 5 or so years, there's been a marked increase of people starting to go back to a more naturalistic environment for their charges. It's fantastic to see and I hope it continues.

[Albert Clark]

Totally got you man, I've got no problem with tubs if the animal is properly set up but personally I would always go naturalistc, just personal preference, what bugs me is bhb style cramped

Understood.

[SSSSnakes]

I think this has less to do with enclosure size than it does with diets and moronic people overfeeding snakes. A lot of snakes in general are obese.



Well said. Nothing to add to it. I simply agree that as long as the animal is properly cared for then I don't have a problem with a tub, enclosure, aquarium etc.



I will say however, for those who weren't around 2 decades ago tubs are a huge reason that the hobby is where it is today. It really helped get a lot of "hard to keep", "hard to acclimate" and "hard to breed" species in the mainstream.

Here's how it works...tubs and rack systems streamlined keeping. It allowed keepers to dial in humidity, heat, security and diets to learn how to keep species alive and eventually breed. It took out the variables of different substrates, trying to heat too much room or keep humidity up with an overhead heat lamp (one of the few ways to heat an enclosure 20 years ago), sickness and illnesses and etc.

Since then, especially in the previous 5 or so years, there's been a marked increase of people starting to go back to a more naturalistic environment for their charges. It's fantastic to see and I hope it continues.

Well said Aaron. We have been agreeing a lot more lately, that is scary. LOL

[SSSSnakes]

I use tubes and critter keeper tanks that lock. Tubes are great for controlling humidity. I have found that most snakes prefer smaller tank or tubs. They feel more secure and eat better. Simple and basic is the way I like to go.

[Aaron_S]

Well said Aaron. We have been agreeing a lot more lately, that is scary. LOL
LOL it IS scary.

I use tubes and critter keeper tanks that lock. Tubes are great for controlling humidity. I have found that most snakes prefer smaller tank or tubs. They feel more secure and eat better. Simple and basic is the way I like to go.

Yeah I found the same thing about size of enclosure. As a general rule something to make the snake feel more secure is always best. (exceptions to every rule)

I look at it this way. Snakes generally have one weapon to defend themselves. Their mouth. Relative to their body it's a pretty small area it can defend. Therefore, a snake is more likely to prefer coiling on itself to be able to defend itself than to be stretched out all the time.

[bigsnakegirl785]

I think this has less to do with enclosure size than it does with diets and moronic people overfeeding snakes. A lot of snakes in general are obese.

I was thinking it was more a combination of a sedentery lifestyle and diet, which a small enclosure that only allows the snake to take up one half or the other definitely encourage. A snake that is fed conservatively and allowed to expend energy is more likely to stay fit. They don't expend much, but snakes still definitely spend hours and hours crawling around, when depends on the species. Unfortunately, handling time doesn't make up for a snake not allowed space to actually crawl around. 30-60 minutes max doesn't compare to the 6-8 straight hours a nocturnal snake would be spending exploring its cage at night, or the amount a garter snake would spend exploring. I see my garters out at any time of the day, they take a short break and start up again, they easily spend half the day (including night) moving around unless in shed or they recently ate.

I have no problems with stand-alone tubs, I love them for juvenile and subadult snakes, but generally the tubs used in racks are nothing compared to a stand alone tub. Rack tubs seem to stay under 12" in height and are thin in width like a glass aquarium, while you can get stand alone tubs that are nearly 2" in height and have a fairly evenly distributed length and width.

They function for what they're meant for, and as long as the snake's needs are met then do as you wish. I just don't think racks are the best we could be doing for our animals is all.

I actually find my tubs to be set ups that are more difficult to control. I have a harder time maintaining the high humidity most of my snakes need and the temps depend on the room more so than my full-sized enclosures with overhead heat. I have to heat the entire room to the minimum temperature for the snakes. Sure, they can stay warm enough to survive if they hug their heat tape, but if the room is too cold then that's all they do, they can't explore because it's too cold. If I offer a basking shelf and heat just the top, with my full-sized enclosures I can keep the room quite a bit cooler, as well as being able to more easily maintain humidity. The most I can do in my tubs is mist, and misting doesn't do much for the humidity. It might bump it to where it needs to be for an hour before the dryness of my heated room causes it all to evaporate away. Tubs and racks are a headache for me and I see them more as a temporary enclosure, but if you have success with it then go for it, as I've stated many times it's only when the snake isn't having its needs met that I have a problem.

[Aaron_S]

I was thinking it was more a combination of a sedentery lifestyle and diet, which a small enclosure that only allows the snake to take up one half or the other definitely encourage. A snake that is fed conservatively and allowed to expend energy is more likely to stay fit. They don't expend much, but snakes still definitely spend hours and hours crawling around, when depends on the species. Unfortunately, handling time doesn't make up for a snake not allowed space to actually crawl around. 30-60 minutes max doesn't compare to the 6-8 straight hours a nocturnal snake would be spending exploring its cage at night, or the amount a garter snake would spend exploring. I see my garters out at any time of the day, they take a short break and start up again, they easily spend half the day (including night) moving around unless in shed or they recently ate.

Why does an enclosure mean a snake isn't sedentary while a tub means they are? The surface area may be smaller but it doesn't mean the snake isn't moving. It may just make more circuits in a given time frame than in a bigger enclosure.

I have no problems with stand-alone tubs, I love them for juvenile and subadult snakes, but generally the tubs used in racks are nothing compared to a stand alone tub. Rack tubs seem to stay under 12" in height and are thin in width like a glass aquarium, while you can get stand alone tubs that are nearly 2" in height and have a fairly evenly distributed length and width.

They function for what they're meant for, and as long as the snake's needs are met then do as you wish. I just don't think racks are the best we could be doing for our animals is all.

I actually find my tubs to be set ups that are more difficult to control. I have a harder time maintaining the high humidity most of my snakes need and the temps depend on the room more so than my full-sized enclosures with overhead heat. I have to heat the entire room to the minimum temperature for the snakes. Sure, they can stay warm enough to survive if they hug their heat tape, but if the room is too cold then that's all they do, they can't explore because it's too cold. If I offer a basking shelf and heat just the top, with my full-sized enclosures I can keep the room quite a bit cooler, as well as being able to more easily maintain humidity. The most I can do in my tubs is mist, and misting doesn't do much for the humidity. It might bump it to where it needs to be for an hour before the dryness of my heated room causes it all to evaporate away. Tubs and racks are a headache for me and I see them more as a temporary enclosure, but if you have success with it then go for it, as I've stated many times it's only when the snake isn't having its needs met that I have a problem.

Again, exceptions to every rule.

[Minkness]

Aaron makes a good point. I have a female hognose that runs laps in her enclosure. Constantly on the move unless she's digesting. She is in a tank bigger than 'suggested' as well. But I have another who is very lazy. He likes to curl up in his favorite corner and just sit there to watch the world outside. I could put him in an enclosure half the size of his current one, and I don't think it would make much of a difference. He is also a hognose. Likewise I did a test to see if my active female stayed active in a smaller enclosure. And she was. Same activity in a 5 gallon as a 20 long. She also ate consistently (if not better) in the small enclosure as the larger one. Only difference is, is that I enjoy seeing my active snake with more room. I doubt she really cares at all.

[Arachnaeoccult]

My BP is in a 20 gallon and about 2.5 feet long.

[sirtalis]

Thanks everyone, I had a thought that some snakes (in the same species) enjoy a different lifestyle. Some may prefer to sleep/hide/soak all day where others are more inclined to explore? I find this true with most people and tons of other animals. I prefer a very active lifestyle but my neighbor would rather stay home all day lol I mean my leopard geckos have very different personalities, My male sleeps all day while the female is exploring through the day. Just a thought :suspicious:

[serpentgirl123]

Thanks everyone, I had a thought that some snakes (in the same species) enjoy a different lifestyle. Some may prefer to sleep/hide/soak all day where others are more inclined to explore? I find this true with most people and tons of other animals. I prefer a very active lifestyle but my neighbor would rather stay home all day lol I mean my leopard geckos have very different personalities, My male sleeps all day while the female is exploring through the day. Just a thought :suspicious:


Exactly! I try to cater to each of my animals/snakes different and individual lifestyles. I have more than a few snakes (boas, carpets, and colubrids) that prefer to just sit in one corner 90% of the time no matter how big/small their environment is and others that don't. One of my carpets, I realized, would prefer to climb and when I get done moving, I will get him a taller enclosure. While the other 2, hardly ever use the shelf at all, unless they make a mess on the ground level, but the option is there.

[Albert Clark]

I think this has less to do with enclosure size than it does with diets and moronic people overfeeding snakes. A lot of snakes in general are obese.


Well said. Nothing to add to it. I simply agree that as long as the animal is properly cared for then I don't have a problem with a tub, enclosure, aquarium etc.



I will say however, for those who weren't around 2 decades ago tubs are a huge reason that the hobby is where it is today. It really helped get a lot of "hard to keep", "hard to acclimate" and "hard to breed" species in the mainstream.

Here's how it works...tubs and rack systems streamlined keeping. It allowed keepers to dial in humidity, heat, security and diets to learn how to keep species alive and eventually breed. It took out the variables of different substrates, trying to heat too much room or keep humidity up with an overhead heat lamp (one of the few ways to heat an enclosure 20 years ago), sickness and illnesses and etc.

Since then, especially in the previous 5 or so years, there's been a marked increase of people starting to go back to a more naturalistic environment for their charges. It's fantastic to see and I hope it continues.
@ Aaron: Come on now, name calling is unnecessary. I overfeed a couple of my animals when they are building and if they will take food when they are gravid. I've had no slugs , no birth defects, 100% hatch rate and the female adults all are healthy and resume a normal feeding schedule. Moronic? That is really a insult.

[Andy_G]

@ Aaron: Come on now, name calling is unnecessary. I overfeed a couple of my animals when they are building and if they will take food when they are gravid. I've had no slugs , no birth defects, 100% hatch rate and the female adults all are healthy and resume a normal feeding schedule. Moronic? That is really a insult.

I will hold back my thoughts on this statement you've made as I don't know how many years you've successfully bred ball pythons for...but could you tell me what I'm missing here? When did Aaron single you out in this thread or call you anything?

[Minkness]

Albert feels like Aaron called him a moron for 'over feeding' his snakes sometimes.

[Andy_G]

I'm thinking a private message would've been a bit more appropriate...because now we can all see someone's panties bunched up. :D

[bigsnakegirl785]

Why does an enclosure mean a snake isn't sedentary while a tub means they are? The surface area may be smaller but it doesn't mean the snake isn't moving. It may just make more circuits in a given time frame than in a bigger enclosure.

It doesn't, but it does encourage it. You'll notice more activity out of a snake with multiple different things to explore than a snake in a cage 1/3 of its body length and nothing but a hide, even if it does laps. As loosely as I use this term, snakes get bored. Some may continue to take laps, but doing laps around a tiny rack isn't the same as being able to climb and having a cage 1/2-1x+ the snake's.

Again, I do not have a problem with tubs in general. It's possible to have adequate floor space and height with a tub, I just usually don't see such accommodations in a rack set up. After a certain size, tubs also become unsuitable for permanent housing. Even though the Christmas totes have enough room for a 6' snake, I would not keep a 6' semi-arboreal or arboreal snake in it, it would be good for a ball python or similar, though. It has a very thin width and isn't very tall. But most tubs work for snakes 5' or under (depending on species).


If you want to see how active your snakes are, try setting up a camera to view them all night! I've been seeing a few people doing this lately, and snakes they thought never moved ended up giving them 6 straight hours of footage. You'd be surprised.

[RAD House]

Big snake girl you are making the assumption that all snakes need the same amount of enrichment and space relative to size. Snakes occupy many different niches in the wild so this is simply not true. If a ball python thrives well in a space you deem to small than isn't it really more of an opinion at that piont? If I am being honest an opinion you do not seem to have much proof of.

[Andy_G]

Big snake girl you are making the assumption that all snakes need the same amount of enrichment and space relative to size. Snakes occupy many different niches in the wild so this is simply not true. If a ball python thrives well in a space you deem to small than isn't it really more of an opinion at that piont? If I am being honest an opinion you do not seem to have much proof of.

x2. We are getting very anthropomorphic here and assuming an awful lot...including that the "exploring" in a larger cage is not caused by stress but by the animal's wants and desires when the exact opposite could in fact be true...

[Albert Clark]

I will hold back my thoughts on this statement you've made as I don't know how many years you've successfully bred ball pythons for...but could you tell me what I'm missing here? When did Aaron single you out in this thread or call you anything?
Doesn't matter how long I've been doing any of my business, a insult was directed at anyone who over feeds or has overfed their snakes. The insult was in poor taste Andy. Its belittling and counterproductive. Period.
I'm thinking a private message would've been a bit more appropriate...because now we can all see someone's panties bunched up. :D

What you think and what someone else thinks are different things. My message was directed to Aaron. You can pull your panties up now!

[Andy_G]

Doesn't matter how long I've been doing any of my business, a insult was directed at anyone who over feeds or has overfed their snakes. The insult was in poor taste Andy. Its belittling and counterproductive. Period.


What you think and what someone else thinks are different things. My message was directed to Aaron. You can pull your panties up now!

So...he's talking about chronic overfeeding affecting a captive snake to the point of being a direct cause of fatty liver disease....which IS a moronic thing to do whether you like it or not (but it can be learned from or changed), and a problem in our hobby...and you're taking it personally because you bump feeding schedules during breeding season...nope...apples and oranges there...still pretty sure i'm missing something. Must be...personal...? If not...sunshine and rainbows as they say...

Panties? What panties. ;)

[Albert Clark]

So...he's talking about chronic overfeeding affecting a captive snake to the point of being a direct cause of fatty liver disease....which IS a moronic thing to do whether you like it or not (but it can be learned from or changed), and a problem in our hobby...and you're taking it personally because you bump feeding schedules during breeding season...nope...apples and oranges there...still pretty sure i'm missing something. Must be...personal...? If not...sunshine and rainbows as they say...

Panties? What panties. ;)

The words written were specifically "moronic people"!!!!!! And since you care to justify the insult, who died and made you commander in chief???? No, not personal. Just taking up for the mentally challenged people of the world who are the real recipients of the term "moronic people". Still insulting. Good night and have a rat day!!

[Andy_G]

The words written were specifically "moronic people"!!!!!! And since you care to justify the insult, who died and made you commander in chief???? No, not personal. Just taking up for the mentally challenged people of the world who are the real recipients of the term "moronic people". Still insulting. Good night and have a rat day!!

Commander in chief reporting in. Going forward, I vote that we use the term "****ing dumb" to avoid offending anyone who takes words on an internet forum, however misused at the time (CLEARLY not the intent here, which shouldn't need to be explained, but anyways...), drastically out of context and extremely literal. Now let's all have a "rat day" and let this matter rest? And remember kids, don't overfeed your snakes to the point of making them ill or killing them, because it's ****ing dumb.

[Aaron_S]

@ Aaron: Come on now, name calling is unnecessary. I overfeed a couple of my animals when they are building and if they will take food when they are gravid. I've had no slugs , no birth defects, 100% hatch rate and the female adults all are healthy and resume a normal feeding schedule. Moronic? That is really a insult.

1. You've bred for about a year or two. It's a small sample size to consider everything in your practice as "successful". You're on the right track though so good for you.

2. That doesn't constitute overfeeding. I feed my breeding females weekly and usually 15% body weight and sometimes 20% if it's a female who has been bred a few years in a row. I don't consitute animals going to be using a large amount of their energy and body and fed a little more to aide in that as overfeeding.

3. If you can't tell the difference between what I mean by overfeeding and what you do then that's on you and how you read my posts. I can't be held responsible for what you understand.

Big snake girl you are making the assumption that all snakes need the same amount of enrichment and space relative to size. Snakes occupy many different niches in the wild so this is simply not true. If a ball python thrives well in a space you deem to small than isn't it really more of an opinion at that piont? If I am being honest an opinion you do not seem to have much proof of.

Bingo! I don't feel the need to explain anything beyond what has been said here.

[Aaron_S]

Final Warning


No reason to have any petty debates or shots at each other. Debate the topic at hand in a reasonable manner or I'll begin the time outs.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Big snake girl you are making the assumption that all snakes need the same amount of enrichment and space relative to size. Snakes occupy many different niches in the wild so this is simply not true. If a ball python thrives well in a space you deem to small than isn't it really more of an opinion at that piont? If I am being honest an opinion you do not seem to have much proof of.

It doesn't matter how much enrichment a species needs, space should be offered regardless. Only fossorial snakes spend the majority of their time underground doing nothing. Even ball pythons, which people like to spread the myth they spend their lives in burrows, spend a good amount of time moving around in the wild. In fact, there are localities of ball pythons where the males spend their entire lives in the trees hunting birds, and only come down to mate. The females move to the ground when they reach a certain size to hunt mammals.

The majority of pythons and boas don't need quite as much as say, an active colubrid. Here I would differentiate by advising Lenght+Width=snake's length (and generally 18-24" of height) for the boids, and Length=snake's length for an active species like a corn or other ratsnake. Sure, not all need the same space, and I never implied it, but all (short of fossorials) should be allowed a base line of more than 1/3-1/2 their length.

I also don't see how saying snakes should be allowed space is antropomorphising (not saying you're saying this MesoCorney), nothing about that is ascribing human characteristics to them.

[FWK]

In fact, there are localities of ball pythons where the males spend their entire lives in the trees hunting birds, and only come down to mate. The females move to the ground when they reach a certain size to hunt mammals.

Citation? I've never heard of this and would very much like to know more.

[Albert Clark]

1. You've bred for about a year or two. It's a small sample size to consider everything in your practice as "successful". You're on the right track though so good for
2. That doesn't constitute overfeeding. I feed my breeding females weekly and usually 15% body weight and sometimes 20% if it's a female who has been bred a few years in a row. I don't consitute animals going to be using a large amount of their energy and body and fed a little more to aide in that as overfeeding.

3. If you can't tell the difference between what I mean by overfeeding and what you do then that's on you and how you read my posts. I can't be held responsible for what you understand.



Bingo! I don't feel the need to explain anything beyond what has been said here.
Wrong! I've been breeding for six years. Garter and king snakes for 4 years and ball pythons for the past 2 years. However I have owned all three species for over a a decade and a half or more.
Ok. I posted a picture of my pastel female breeding my pied and I know she is huge ai 2200 grams. I know that I have been pumping her and my albino female who is being paired as well. They are both still taking food so I know they are both being overfed.
I know what you mean by over feeding. You didn't clarify or exclude the times when breeding. Thanks.

[Aaron_S]

Wrong! I've been breeding for six years. Garter and king snakes for 4 years and ball pythons for the past 2 years. However I have owned all three species for over a a decade and a half or more.
Ok. I posted a picture of my pastel female breeding my pied and I know she is huge ai 2200 grams. I know that I have been pumping her and my albino female who is being paired as well. They are both still taking food so I know they are both being overfed.
I know what you mean by over feeding. You didn't clarify or exclude the times when breeding. Thanks.

Sorry. I only knew of the ball pythons. My mistake.

We're on a reptile forum. I expect people like you to know the difference between breeding and feeding (which you may still be overdoing it but your descriptions are vague).

If you knew what I meant then no reason for you to take offense to bad keepers. Unless you feel you fit in the group or morons who overfeed their snakes.

[SSSSnakes]

Citation? I've never heard of this and would very much like to know more.

I would also like to know where you got your information about these tree dwelling bail pythons. I have search for it and have not come up with any info, except that ball pythons do climb trees.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Citation? I've never heard of this and would very much like to know more.

One on differences of ectoparasite loads between the sexes.

Why do males and females of Python regius differ in ectoparasite load?**»**Brill Online (http://booksandjournals.brillonline.com/content/journals/10.1163/156853806778190105)

Sexual dimorphism and dietary divergance (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/11250009809386744).

There's also this one, which I have yet to find the full text of so I can access the actual study.

An investigation into the composition, complexity and functioning of snake communities in the mangroves of south-eastern Nigeria - Luiselli - 2002 - African Journal of Ecology - Wiley Online Library (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2028.2002.00358.x/abstract;jsessionid=A0139754D42287F057E476D2ABD159 6E.f04t03?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false)

[Aaron_S]

One on differences of ectoparasite loads between the sexes.

Why do males and females of Python regius differ in ectoparasite load?**»**Brill Online (http://booksandjournals.brillonline.com/content/journals/10.1163/156853806778190105)

Sexual dimorphism and dietary divergance (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/11250009809386744).

There's also this one, which I have yet to find the full text of so I can access the actual study.

An investigation into the composition, complexity and functioning of snake communities in the mangroves of south-eastern Nigeria - Luiselli - 2002 - African Journal of Ecology - Wiley Online Library (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2028.2002.00358.x/abstract;jsessionid=A0139754D42287F057E476D2ABD159 6E.f04t03?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false)

You do know the first link refutes the second link, correct?

The second link says they SUGGEST that males tend to be more arboreal. Long hanging branches and it's possible due to their smaller body than females.

The first link says both males and females were found in the same burrows so it debunked the suggestion that they were from different habitats outside of breeding.

It's still an interesting thought on sexes having different diets.

[Albert Clark]

Sorry. I only knew of the ball pythons. My mistake.

We're on a reptile forum. I expect people like you to know the difference between breeding and feeding (which you may still be overdoing it but your descriptions are vague).

If you knew what I meant then no reason for you to take offense to bad keepers. Unless you feel you fit in the group or morons who overfeed their snakes.
I don't see why you insist on calling people morons bc they are making a decision to overfeed their snakes. Cant they just be ignorant of the proper feeding procedure? Maybe they're new to the hobby. I don't see where that calls for a insult. Why cant the risks , pros and cons just be explained to people without the counterproductive terminology? Thanks.

[Andy_G]

I also don't see how saying snakes should be allowed space is antropomorphising (not saying you're saying this MesoCorney), nothing about that is ascribing human characteristics to them.

This.

It doesn't, but it does encourage it. You'll notice more activity out of a snake with multiple different things to explore than a snake in a cage 1/3 of its body length and nothing but a hide, even if it does laps. As loosely as I use this term, snakes get bored. S


Snakes are "positively thigmotactic". They like to feel constant contact against their body as it makes them feel safe and secure. I wouldn't personally deem more activity in a larger enclosure to be positive in every instance...or even in most. Giving them a space much larger than necessity and having them cruise could be a sign of stress and not comfort or curiosity. I would first give a snake a smaller or "appropriately sized" enclosure, and if they were restless or showed discomfort in that instance, I would then bump up the size, but not the other way around...and that's not because I have lack of space or funding, it's just a better process of stress reduction and successful propagation in my opinion. So...the notion of them wanting the most space and multiple sources of stimuli as possible would also be anthropomorphic in my opinion.

[Andy_G]

I also don't see how saying snakes should be allowed space is antropomorphising (not saying you're saying this MesoCorney), nothing about that is ascribing human characteristics to them.

This.

It doesn't, but it does encourage it. You'll notice more activity out of a snake with multiple different things to explore than a snake in a cage 1/3 of its body length and nothing but a hide, even if it does laps. As loosely as I use this term, snakes get bored. S


Snakes are "positively thigmotactic". They like to feel constant contact against their body as it makes them feel safe and secure. I wouldn't personally deem more activity in a larger enclosure to be positive in every instance...or even in most. Giving them a space much larger than necessity and having them cruise could be a sign of stress rather than comfort. I would first give a snake a smaller or "appropriately sized" enclosure, and if they were restless or showed discomfort in that instance, I would then bump up the size, but not the other way around...and that's not because I have lack of space or funding, it's just a better process of stress reduction and successful propagation in my opinion. So...the notion of them wanting the most space and multiple sources of stimuli as possible would also be anthropomorphic in my opinion.

[FWK]

One on differences of ectoparasite loads between the sexes.

Why do males and females of Python regius differ in ectoparasite load?**»**Brill Online (http://booksandjournals.brillonline.com/content/journals/10.1163/156853806778190105)

Sexual dimorphism and dietary divergance (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/11250009809386744).

There's also this one, which I have yet to find the full text of so I can access the actual study.

An investigation into the composition, complexity and functioning of snake communities in the mangroves of south-eastern Nigeria - Luiselli - 2002 - African Journal of Ecology - Wiley Online Library (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2028.2002.00358.x/abstract;jsessionid=A0139754D42287F057E476D2ABD159 6E.f04t03?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false)

This is some very interesting data. I honestly had no idea Ball Pythons took so many birds as prey. Very cool. I have chicks and small chickens for my Rat Snakes, I'm tempted to see if my male Ball Pythons would show any interest at all. It does not change my views on husbandry however. Relatively small tubs are the way to go, ideal for both the physical and psychological well-being of these animals. But it does shed some light on the species overall. Here (https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Luca_Luiselli2/publication/249439130_An_investigation_into_the_composition_co mplexity_and_functioning_of_snake_communities_in_t he_mangroves_of_south-eastern_Nigeria/links/0046351f62f1639f6a000000.pdf) is a link to the third paper, if you'd like to read it.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Snakes are "positively thigmotactic". They like to feel constant contact against their body as it makes them feel safe and secure. I wouldn't personally deem more activity in a larger enclosure to be positive in every instance...or even in most. Giving them a space much larger than necessity and having them cruise could be a sign of stress and not comfort or curiosity. I would first give a snake a smaller or "appropriately sized" enclosure, and if they were restless or showed discomfort in that instance, I would then bump up the size, but not the other way around...and that's not because I have lack of space or funding, it's just a better process of stress reduction and successful propagation in my opinion. So...the notion of them wanting the most space and multiple sources of stimuli as possible would also be anthropomorphic in my opinion.

You can make a bigger enclosure densely packed so they're not open, negating that argument. You can also better allow multiple microclimates in a larger enclosure, which you simply cannot do in a smaller enclosure. Offering microclimates allows a snake to choose humid or drier areas, warmer or cooler areas, dark or lighter areas, and/or higher and lower areas. So it could also allow them more wiggle room for deciding what's best for them at any given moment rather than having to deal with whatever we want to offer them that's uniform throughout the entire enclosure.

I'm not saying they want more space or they want multiple sources of stimuli, but whether or not they want it it can encourage natural behaviors, which will also stimulate areas of the brain related to those functions. In the same way a bird HAS to be allowed to fly for proper bodily and mental function, maybe snakes need to exhibit certain behaviors to properly function. It probably isn't life or death like with birds, but it would at least be a positive thing to provide for their well-being.

You do know the first link refutes the second link, correct?

The second link says they SUGGEST that males tend to be more arboreal. Long hanging branches and it's possible due to their smaller body than females.

The first link says both males and females were found in the same burrows so it debunked the suggestion that they were from different habitats outside of breeding.

It's still an interesting thought on sexes having different diets.

I think that's moreso because it's relatively new data on the species, but I agree it's definitely interesting and at least gives us data to think about. As more research is done on this side of the ball python's natural activities, I'm sure more light will be shed.

This is some very interesting data. I honestly had no idea Ball Pythons took so many birds as prey. Very cool. I have chicks and small chickens for my Rat Snakes, I'm tempted to see if my male Ball Pythons would show any interest at all. It does not change my views on husbandry however. Relatively small tubs are the way to go, ideal for both the physical and psychological well-being of these animals. But it does shed some light on the species overall. Here (https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Luca_Luiselli2/publication/249439130_An_investigation_into_the_composition_co mplexity_and_functioning_of_snake_communities_in_t he_mangroves_of_south-eastern_Nigeria/links/0046351f62f1639f6a000000.pdf) is a link to the third paper, if you'd like to read it.

Actually I think I already provided a link to that paper, I'm fairly sure it's that one link I was trying to find the full paper for, as I only had the abstract.

[FWK]

You can make a bigger enclosure densely packed so they're not open, negating that argument. You can also better allow multiple microclimates in a larger enclosure, which you simply cannot do in a smaller enclosure. Offering microclimates allows a snake to choose humid or drier areas, warmer or cooler areas, dark or lighter areas, and/or higher and lower areas. So it could also allow them more wiggle room for deciding what's best for them at any given moment rather than having to deal with whatever we want to offer them that's uniform throughout the entire enclosure.

You're getting a little carried away with this. At some point this enclosure has become so large it is impossible to find the animal so it can be fed. Perhaps we should add a colony of rats so that the snake can chose when and where to feed, or not to feed, whatever. It's not like we would know anyway.

Actually I think I already provided a link to that paper, I'm fairly sure it's that one link I was trying to find the full paper for, as I only had the abstract.

I literally have no idea what this means.

[Andy_G]

Or a small enclosure less packed. I have never kept a snake in an enclosure that they couldn't properly thermoregulate in so that's a pretty poor
example...and as far as humidity goes...use a humid hide...and there's your microclimates.

I can appreciate where you're coming from, but can't even remotely agree that bigger is better becase of the behavioral nature of these animals. Birds are not snakes, and sometimes a snake is only in a tree to eat or find food...not because they enjoy being there or it enriches their lives somehow...they want a meal or they need to bask... You're still presenting to be a bit anthro in the opinions an ideas you have expressed here...and as FWK mentioned...a little carried away. :)

[bigsnakegirl785]

You're getting a little carried away with this. At some point this enclosure has become so large it is impossible to find the animal so it can be fed. Perhaps we should add a colony of rats so that the snake can chose when and where to feed, or not to feed, whatever. It's not like we would know anyway.



I literally have no idea what this means.

Hence the reason why I outline the Length+Width rule, that is hardly getting carried away, I'd consider it a minimum, and that will provide ample room for a few microclimates.

As in I already linked to the same paper/essay/whatever in my previous post. All you did was post the same article from a different website.

Or a small enclosure less packed. I have never kept a snake in an enclosure that they couldn't properly thermoregulate in so that's a pretty poor
example...and as far as humidity goes...use a humid hide...and there's your microclimates.

I can appreciate where you're coming from, but can't even remotely agree that bigger is better becase of the behavioral nature of these animals. Birds are not snakes, and sometimes a snake is only in a tree to eat or find food...not because they enjoy being there or it enriches their lives somehow...they want a meal or they need to bask... You're still presenting to be a bit anthro in the opinions an ideas you have expressed here...and as FWK mentioned...a little carried away. :)

I hardly think I'm getting carried away when I'm using an accepted minimum here. What are you people thinking I'm saying? Build a room for a garter snake?

[sirtalis]

Hence the reason why I outline the Length+Width rule, that is hardly getting carried away, I'd consider it a minimum, and that will provide ample room for a few microclimates.

As in I already linked to the same paper/essay/whatever in my previous post. All you did was post the same article from a different website.



I hardly think I'm getting carried away when I'm using an accepted minimum here. What are you people thinking I'm saying? Build a room for a garter snake?

LOL at a room for a garter snake :p

[Aaron_S]

I don't see why you insist on calling people morons bc they are making a decision to overfeed their snakes. Cant they just be ignorant of the proper feeding procedure? Maybe they're new to the hobby. I don't see where that calls for a insult. Why cant the risks , pros and cons just be explained to people without the counterproductive terminology? Thanks.

I stand by this statement, that if you're overfeeding a snake then you're a moron because you're not thinking about the snakes long term health. HOWEVER, there's an exception to every rule, such as someone who was given improper guidance.

I don't see why you continue to throw out random scenarios that it wouldn't apply. I would think as an adult you would already know not everything is black and white but I suppose I needed to explain in greater detail. If you're still offended then that's on you at this point.

For the record, overfeeding a snake is a BAD THING and should not be done.

[Albert Clark]

@ Aaron: Thanks for getting back to me. I see your points. Thank you for the civility.

[Aaron_S]

Hence the reason why I outline the Length+Width rule, that is hardly getting carried away, I'd consider it a minimum, and that will provide ample room for a few microclimates.
...I hardly think I'm getting carried away when I'm using an accepted minimum here. What are you people thinking I'm saying? Build a room for a garter snake?

You are giving the impression you're talking larger space. I don't see how a 2x2 for some species can be given such varied humid/dry areas (outside of a humid hide), light/dark space etc. as you described.

I am all for people enjoying their animals if all care has been met. I personally err on the side of caution when discussing all of these additions to an enclosure because then we're opening up everything to the possibility of more things to go wrong.

Sometimes we need to go back to "simple is best".

[bigsnakegirl785]

LOL at a room for a garter snake :p

lol Me, too. Despite the assumptions people are making I do draw the line somewhere.

You are giving the impression you're talking larger space. I don't see how a 2x2 for some species can be given such varied humid/dry areas (outside of a humid hide), light/dark space etc. as you described.

I am all for people enjoying their animals if all care has been met. I personally err on the side of caution when discussing all of these additions to an enclosure because then we're opening up everything to the possibility of more things to go wrong.

Sometimes we need to go back to "simple is best".

Eh, that's why I vary the minimum by species.

I mean, I tried my best to show that wasn't what I was showing. I tried explaining exactly what I was saying, and even spaced out the paragraphs in order to make my points easier to read. *shrug*

Yeah, I guess with a beginner I could see simpler being better, but if someone wants to add some extra stuff and they have the know-how to tweak as needed, I think it's a bit unfair to say they're being irresponsible. And the microclimates could be as easy as just offering a thermal gradient and a humid hide here or there. Easy peasy.

[Aaron_S]

lol Me, too. Despite the assumptions people are making I do draw the line somewhere.



Eh, that's why I vary the minimum by species.

I mean, I tried my best to show that wasn't what I was showing. I tried explaining exactly what I was saying, and even spaced out the paragraphs in order to make my points easier to read. *shrug*

Yeah, I guess with a beginner I could see simpler being better, but if someone wants to add some extra stuff and they have the know-how to tweak as needed, I think it's a bit unfair to say they're being irresponsible. And the microclimates could be as easy as just offering a thermal gradient and a humid hide here or there. Easy peasy.

Forums are forums. Sometimes what we say and type doesn't come across the way we intend. No harm, no foul.

I never said anyone would be being irresponsible offering a properly built larger enclosure with the appropriate amount of heat and humidity. Lots of pictures out there.

I personally find some of the really nice ones to probably look better without any animals in them, or just tiny animals, so they don't ruin the landscaping.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Forums are forums. Sometimes what we say and type doesn't come across the way we intend. No harm, no foul.

I never said anyone would be being irresponsible offering a properly built larger enclosure with the appropriate amount of heat and humidity. Lots of pictures out there.

I personally find some of the really nice ones to probably look better without any animals in them, or just tiny animals, so they don't ruin the landscaping.

This is true.

You might not have but some others were saying this.

I'd have to agree! I've seen some absolutely amazing enclosures, some of them huge, some of them not, and the animals do tend to distract from it. In a personal home I suppose that's not so important, but sometimes I find myself looking at the cages rather than the animals in a really nice cage. Species like GTPs, and arboreal colubrids seem to fit nicely in those sorts of spaces, though, especially if their colors match the surroundings.