Any other hoggie do this?

[Oleman]

My hog goes off food every year between December and march. I still offer once every 2 weeks just in case but always refuses. She maintains weight and attitude so no worries.
Just curious if others do the same?

[Minkness]

Yup. They do that. Some people say that if you bump their heat higher than normal that they stay voracious, but I see it as part of their normal biological cycle, so I don't push mine.

[Andy_G]

It's normal for some north american colubrids to go off food or eat less than usual from November-March no matter what you do.

[Albert Clark]

When it happens it should raise a red flag actually. Triple check your husbandry firstly. Secondly check for illnesses ( visual and listening) bc this may be the case. Lastly, consider brumation especially if it's been 2 weeks since their last meal bc their stomachs are empty and that is the time to begin lowering temps and keeping the lights off. Are you considering breeding ?

[Andy_G]

I respectfully disagree with the red flag comment. It usually is only an indication that it's winter and the snake thinks it's time to brumate provided no other changes have been made. It happens pretty regularly in some individuals but not with all individuals. As long as weight is being maintained then you're fine. I think it's much too late to consider brumation this close to spring as well. Also, when it comes to brumating, it's actually better to put them right into brumation when theyre ready instead of slowly lowering temps...the "slow cool" method is much more likely to cause respiratory infections.

[Albert Clark]

If you're considering breeding and there are breedable females in range is another reason a reptile (especially male) will stop eating. If that is not the case, a short cooling phase (brumation) can reset the reptiles feeding clock. A healthy, well adjusted animal will feed on a regular basis until enviornmental cues, pheromonal cues, or illness tells him otherwise. Make sure to offer a varied diet as well. Hognose are known to enjoy a amphibian and aquatic supplemented diet. F/t frog legs cut up is a nice alternative as is fresh thiaminase free fish such as croaker, ocean perch etc. Although a rodent based diet is considered complete nutrition, hog nose should have supplemental aquatics in their diet.

[Albert Clark]

My hog goes off food every year between December and march. I still offer once every 2 weeks just in case but always refuses. She maintains weight and attitude so no worries.
Just curious if others do the same?

As long as that is the normal pattern that you are familiar with and have been dealing with I say ok. Continue as you have been but for others who this happens to should first triple check their husbandry numbers and start playing detective to rule out other causes.

[chairman]

I have no idea if this has been studied, but I'd hypothesize that colubrids use barometric pressure as a signal for brumation. I bet that you could get a high percentage of breeding age colubrids to go off feed in the middle of summer solely by changing the barometric pressure in the room they are kept (ie raise pressure to winter levels). Of course, it'd take a bio lab with specialized equipment to pull it off...

There's nothing wrong with double checking husbandry at least seasonally or especially if a behavioural shift is observed. I just don't worry much about it around this time of year.

[Andy_G]

Although a rodent based diet is considered complete nutrition, hog nose should have supplemental aquatics in their diet.

I would strongly advise against this with western hognose snakes. It really makes me wonder what kind of experience you have with this particular species Albert. These are not garter snakes. There's absolutely zero reason to do this, and once you've offered aquatic prey you may have a hell of a time getting them to take rodents again as they are known to imprint feed on these types of prey (toads, frogs, fish, etc.) which is why you'll seldom hear anyone who has kept them and bred them for a number of years suggest it. It would be very inconvenient compared to a strict rodent diet...having to scent every time you feed...and issues with egg calcification in females that produce eggs has historically been the result wih individuals that are not on an all rodent diet...but...if you do try...good luck.

Chairman, the barometric pressure theory is quite a popular one and a lot of people believe it. One must wonder how can these animals just know what time of year it is, even if kept in constant darkness with no photoperiod and no temperature variance?

[Albert Clark]

I would strongly advise against this with western hognose snakes. It really makes me wonder what kind of experience you have with this particular species Albert. These are not garter snakes. There's absolutely zero reason to do this, and once you've offered aquatic prey you may have a hell of a time getting them to take rodents again as they are known to imprint feed on these types of prey (toads, frogs, fish, etc.) which is why you'll seldom hear anyone who has kept them and bred them for a number of years suggest it. It would be very inconvenient compared to a strict rodent diet...having to scent every time you feed...and issues with egg calcification in females that produce eggs has historically been the result wih individuals that are not on an all rodent diet...but...if you do try...good luck.

Chairman, the barometric pressure theory is quite a popular one and a lot of people believe it. One must wonder how can these animals just know what time of year it is, even if kept in constant darkness with no photoperiod and no temperature variance?
@ Andy . Well , according to the studies at the University of Georgia herpetology department both the western and eastern species of Heterodon benefit from a varied diet of not only rodents but other small mammals including birds, eggs , invertebrates and toads and frogs which are their favorites. Of course the toads and frogs would be limited to none bc of the endoparasitic concentrations. They do eat fish and tadpoles. A solely rodent based diet is convenient but does cause liver problems and shorter life spans in hognose. Its more natural and healthy to offer a variety however problematic. As most literature and including Reptile magazines account of the diet including taxonomy and habitat. The reason to experiment with a variety of prey is at least twofold. It's a natural, healthy thing to do and it increases the longevity of the animal. One of the main reasons I suggested f/t frog legs which are easily available at the fish markets and are safer bc of the freezing.

[Andy_G]

Were they observing wild populations or captive populations? l would really like to know more about this study as well as how this data was collected? I certainly can't displace or disregard a study done by a well established and legitimate educational institution.

All I have to base my opinions on is my experience keeping and breeding them over 8 years in row and having holdbacks grow up to produce with almost perfect fertility consistently while feeding exclusively on mice hoppers and young adult mice very well for the (so far) duration of their lives. The people who took over my collection (14 adults and a few babies/sub adults as far as hognose go) a few years ago still have them and are doing the same thing. I guess people should take my advice as well as advice which was grandfathered to me that I learned from previous generations of great people keeping and breeding this species in captivity year after year with a grain of salt.

[Albert Clark]

I know you are experienced in the hognose species and are well traveled with them as captives and wild populations. I am not discounting that. This is just pertinent information that is in the literature and that is the only reason I presented it. I will get the exact references to these posts asap.

[Aaron_S]

... Although a rodent based diet is considered complete nutrition, hog nose should have supplemental aquatics in their diet.

Why should they if a rodent diet is complete nutrition?

I know you're getting some of this information from some papers published so I look forward to reading it, however, I don't see why they SHOULD have a variety other than for their keepers feeling better about offering "different options".

I have no idea if this has been studied, but I'd hypothesize that colubrids use barometric pressure as a signal for brumation. I bet that you could get a high percentage of breeding age colubrids to go off feed in the middle of summer solely by changing the barometric pressure in the room they are kept (ie raise pressure to winter levels). Of course, it'd take a bio lab with specialized equipment to pull it off...

There's nothing wrong with double checking husbandry at least seasonally or especially if a behavioural shift is observed. I just don't worry much about it around this time of year.

I am a firm believer in the barometric pressure behind breeding cues for snakes.

[RAD House]

God darn it not another husbandry factor I have to keep track of and constantly fight mother earth on. I am curious how you would change the pressure with out changing the temps as changing air volume would be quite a task.

[Minkness]

Internet sarcasm is lost on me...

Why would you atempt to change air pressure? Why not just let the animal cycle as nature intended?

[chairman]

Lol, you wouldn't want to change the pressure as a keeper. I was trying to suggest that even when "nothing changes," there are external factors that you can't control. The temperature, light cycle, and humidity may remain constant year-round, but we can't do anything about pressure.

Unless you live in an old jumbo jet that has been turned into a house. If so, please share pics.

[Minkness]

Ooooh lol. Sorry, I sometimes take things very litterally. XD

[Albert Clark]

Why should they if a rodent diet is complete nutrition?

I know you're getting some of this information from some papers published so I look forward to reading it, however, I don't see why they SHOULD have a variety other than for their keepers feeling better about offering "different options".



I am a firm believer in the barometric pressure behind breeding cues for snakes.

According to Wikipedia, there is anecdotal evidence to suggest that feeding them( H. platirhinos) a diet of exclusively rodents contributes to liver problems and a shortened life span. https://en.m.wikipedia.org
It further states that H.nasicus (wild populations) will feed predominately on amphibians , tree frogs, toads and small lizards. Also taking the occaisional rodent.
The university of Georgia studies was inclusive of H.platirhinos and H.simus only. They did not include or exclude H.nasicus. Savannah River Ecology Laboratory/ UGA/reprint #1801

[Andy_G]

So they mentioned that H. platirhinos had problens with fatty liver disease when fed mice exclusively...which is nothing new and why the species is less common in the trade...but when it comes to H. nasicus...which is what we are talking about here...it doesn't supply any evidence of this whatsoever. What about populations that exist in arid or dry areas where the amphibian population is low? They must do fine on mostly rodents in the wild as we know H. nasicus is extremely widespread and very adaptable compared to the other subspecies mentioned...what you have offered is in my opinion a bit skewed, restrictive in regards to geographical range and offers no conclusive proof of your earlier claim that western hognose snakes being offered a varied diet in captivity will in any way be healthier. Just my thoughts...

[Albert Clark]

The populations that reside in arid or dry regions where the amphibian population is low probably feed on lizards and or toads. What I offered is what I researched. Hognose in general don't feed on one prey item. If that's what works for you that's ok. If that's what works for your captives , that's fine too.

[Andy_G]

The populations that reside in arid or dry regions where the amphibian population is low probably feed on lizards and or toads. What I offered is what I researched. Hognose in general don't feed on one prey item. If that's what works for you that's ok. If that's what works for your captives , that's fine too.

Since the whole purpose of your posts in this thread was mainly to educate us that western hognose in captivity don't do well on rodents exclusively because that isn't what their natural diet consists of...I must ask...do you feed your bp african soft fur rats just as they would eat in the wild as a main staple?

If one has no experience keeping a specific species, are they properly suited to give advice when the main source of the information is the combination of a small study and wikipedia? Im sorry to sound harsh but it bugs me when someone offers up advice that could be dentrimental to the keeping of the species as well as causing unnecessary problems for the owner, even if unintentional.

[RAD House]

Since the whole purpose of your posts in this thread was mainly to educate us that western hognose in captivity don't do well on rodents exclusively because that isn't what their natural diet consists of...I must ask...do you feed your bp african soft fur rats just as they would eat in the wild as a main staple?

If one has no experience keeping a specific species, are they properly suited to give advice when the main source of the information is the combination of a small study and wikipedia? Im sorry to sound harsh but it bugs me when someone offers up advice that could be dentrimental to the keeping of the species as well as causing unnecessary problems for the owner, even if unintentional.

I don't think your AFS example is relevant as I don't think anyone will argue that rats and mice are far more similar to AFS than mice are to lizards and toads. I think Albert has a point about natural diets, but the question is it entirely necessary or achievable in most cases? Probably not and this seems to do well for many in captivity. I went through the same issues with my garter snakes, luckily they seem to make the choice for me.

[Andy_G]

I don't think your AFS example is relevant as I don't think anyone will argue that rats and mice are far more similar to AFS than mice are to lizards and toads. I think Albert has a point about natural diets, but the question is it entirely necessary or achievable in most cases? Probably not and this seems to do well for many in captivity. I went through the same issues with my garter snakes, luckily they seem to make the choice for me.

You're right, asf's are much more comparable to what is normally offered, although not one in the same. Fatty liver disease gets brought up all the time (on forums) and asfs have differren fat content than the feeder rats we regularly offer so how irrelevant is it in regards to this wild vs captive diet discussion? If irrelevant, perhaps equally so, I would argue when taking into account that the foodvitems discussed will offer mostly problems for keeper and captive.

[Aaron_S]

According to Wikipedia, there is anecdotal evidence to suggest that feeding them( H. platirhinos) a diet of exclusively rodents contributes to liver problems and a shortened life span. https://en.m.wikipedia.org
It further states that H.nasicus (wild populations) will feed predominately on amphibians , tree frogs, toads and small lizards. Also taking the occaisional rodent.
The university of Georgia studies was inclusive of H.platirhinos and H.simus only. They did not include or exclude H.nasicus. Savannah River Ecology Laboratory/ UGA/reprint #1801

I restate my question, why is it a SHOULD for a varied diet as opposed to "up to the keeper's discretion?" For commonly kept species in captivity.

I see one instance of fatty liver for 1 specific species. It doesn't allow us to brush everything with a broad stroke.

[Albert Clark]

I restate my question, why is it a SHOULD for a varied diet as opposed to "up to the keeper's discretion?" For commonly kept species in captivity.

I see one instance of fatty liver for 1 specific species. It doesn't allow us to brush everything with a broad stroke.

It certainly can be up to the keepers discretion! A varied diet is what's shown in all descriptions under "feeding" and "diet" categories for all reptiles. Very few to none of animals only feed on only one single prey item. "Complete nutrition" is in a rodent based diet. However variety is the spice of life. It can't hurt to offer variety of a animals natural diet if possible. Percentages of nutritional values are different as well. If it's refused by the animal it's all good. If they accept it , then great! For me , it's worth trying. People are welcome to reject it all together if they so desire. Thanks.

[Aaron_S]

It certainly can be up to the keepers discretion! A varied diet is what's shown in all descriptions under "feeding" and "diet" categories for all reptiles. Very few to none of animals only feed on only one single prey item. "Complete nutrition" is in a rodent based diet. However variety is the spice of life. It can't hurt to offer variety of a animals natural diet if possible. Percentages of nutritional values are different as well. If it's refused by the animal it's all good. If they accept it , then great! For me , it's worth trying. People are welcome to reject it all together if they so desire. Thanks.

Thank you for explaining.

That was what I was getting at. I knew that it isn't a "SHOULD" be when it comes to variety and I wanted others reading the thread who may be new that this isn't the case. It's much easier for a lot of new keepers and even older ones to stick with the complete nutrition diet of rodents.

I personally err on the side of "rodents only" because variety can get you stuck with a lot picky snakes in certain species.

[Oleman]

I like where this went.
My hog has done this from year one. She eats again in April usually barely looses any weight. It's normal for her with same environmental factors. It's funny, she is in a basement so she doesn't see any sunlight yet with her light on a 14 hour on 10 hr off cycle, she begins to get active mid march then by April is back to her self.

[Oleman]

Update.
The female has returned to normal feeding behaviors.
she returned to eating on the 6th after she shed the last week of march.