Will socialized rats produce better babies?

[Humble308]

Hey guys/gals,

Rather odd question I know, but it's something I've been pondering for a few days. I have a trio of rats right now...two males and one female (and one female loose in the house :rolleyes:, long story for another time) that I bought from the reptile shelter I volunteer at. I had pretty good success breeding mice and wanted to stockpile rats as my gopher snakes grow and move to those sized animals.

Anyways I immediately see difference between rats and mice, with rats evidently being MUCH more intelligent, I find myself just enjoying watching them run around their cage and do their rat thing. I'm finding many feeder breeders end up taking such a liking to their breeders that they basically become pets. As of now my rats are a bit terrified of me. I can scratch their noggin and stuff like that but most of the time they huddle in the corner and try to hide their heads from the world.

My mice seemed to enjoy being left alone, but the rats seem a bit more social. I'm wondering if by having a bond with the rats will create healthier, "happier" animals that produce healthier pups? I couldn't find any studies on this, so I'm assuming everything at this point would be speculation. Even still I'd be interested to hear some opinions from feeder breeders who do this on a small enough scale where socialization is viable.

So far I really enjoy keeping them. Looking forward to the first litter.

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n127/Humble308/IMG_20160225_141605761_zpsyggvxgwh.jpg (http://s111.photobucket.com/user/Humble308/media/IMG_20160225_141605761_zpsyggvxgwh.jpg.html)

[Minkness]

Healthy/happy is suggestive at best. Just leaving them alone but keeping them on a healthy diet and giving them 'toys' and keeping them clean could very easily have them being happy and healthy. On te other side of it, handling them alot and having an awesome pwt with a poor diet and not as clean caging they could still be happy, but probably not as healthy.

For 'healthy' babies just nake aure the mother has the best husbandry possible. Their emotional state won't have too much of an effect on the babies unless they are SUPER stressed out or something. But if you just take care of them like theyshoupd be, you interacting with them or not most likely will not affect the babies. And if it does, it will be on such a small scale it will not be noticeable by anyone other than a scientist disecting it.

[prairiepanda]

Stress can affect breeding outcomes, but even if they aren't socialized they will eventually become accustomed to your presence and you won't be stressing them out, as long as you're not messing around with them too much at critical times.

Socializing rats serves more to turn them into suitable pets. If you want to snuggle and play with them, then it would be worthwhile to spend time socializing them. If breeding is your main priority, though, it won't really make a difference.

[Humble308]

Thanks yall, probably trying to make something out of nothing. Will interact with them a little, snuggling probably not on the agenda hahaha. So far they've been eating better than my dogs!

On a bit of a segway Prairie, do you have any pics or thread on your Mexican pinesnake? Every time I see one pop up I've been very tempted to buy one but my reptile room is a bit too warm for them. What are they like to keep and how do they compare to other Pitouphis? You and Ziggy were the motivating factors in me trying pits and I'm just enthralled with them! All the best.

[macandchz]

Humble308, I'm confused. are you trying to socialize these rats for pets or are you trying to create a better strain of rats to feed to your snakes?

[jpsteele80]

Humble308, I'm confused. are you trying to socialize these rats for pets or are you trying to create a better strain of rats to feed to your snakes?

LOL he's trying to create a strain that's happier to be eatin by a snake

[Jim Smith]

Actually, Humble308 mentioned a problem I have had in the past. I have one snake that for almost a year would only eat freshly killed mice. I would buy 8-10 mice at a time to save time and money and keep them healthy until their number came up:( This last time, I started to get attached to the last mouse I had. I almost named it, but I knew that if I did that, it would be game over. There would be no way I could use it as a food item. I never wanted to keep mice or rats because the smell so much, but now I know that I have the additional risk of becoming attached to them. Thankfully, I was able to switch my snake back over to F/T with a couple of bait and switch feedings.

[Humble308]

Humble308, I'm confused. are you trying to socialize these rats for pets or are you trying to create a better strain of rats to feed to your snakes?

Trying to create healthier rats for my snakes to eat. Essentially a non issue, but since rats seem alot more social than mice I was a bit concerned about stress levels since they seem to run and hide when I tend to their cage and food. I'm sure they'll get it on and make babies regardless. But wondered if getting the rats less afraid of my presence would help their pregnancy and all that.

[Humble308]

Actually, Humble308 mentioned a problem I have had in the past. I have one snake that for almost a year would only eat freshly killed mice. I would buy 8-10 mice at a time to save time and money and keep them healthy until their number came up:( This last time, I started to get attached to the last mouse I had. I almost named it, but I knew that if I did that, it would be game over. There would be no way I could use it as a food item. I never wanted to keep mice or rats because the smell so much, but now I know that I have the additional risk of becoming attached to them. Thankfully, I was able to switch my snake back over to F/T with a couple of bait and switch feedings.

I totally understand that. When I initially had my first quad of breeder mice I had to cull off two adults who were constantly fighting. It wasn't a pleasant thing as I'd grown fond of them.

I don't think you'd mind keeping rats...just by nature I think we assume they smell. But the smell is so clean I actually keep them inside the house with no problems. On the other hand my stinky *** mice stayed in the garage. I stopped breeding mice for the time being as I'm well stocked for the time and mice are cheap enough to make frozen economical.

[Sasha2]

years ago I raised rats, some pets and some not. My best breeder was female that gave me huge litters always more then 15 and all kinds of colors.She was also my biggest biter.She bit the base of my thumb down to the joint. I had to use a board to block her to get her babies(I always left a few, never taking the whole litter).
I gave mine toys, veggies, and lots of room regardless of pets or breeders(big cages, not tubs).
I dont think socializing makes a difference litterwise but it does make it easier on you. They are easy to train if you use treats, I think as easy as training a dog.

[bigsnakegirl785]

I used to raise rats, and with minimal contact they stayed friendly with me, but most of the rats I had were raised under my care, the first two rats I started out with weren't the friendliest. The male ended up killing the female so he got fed off, but despite that all their babies were nothing but good mothers and fathers, I could even leave the males in with the females and their babies and the babies were safe. I only really interacted with them to feed and water them and change their bedding, and they'd come up to greet me and would let me hold them with little problems. They were kept outside in the car port, so they were out of the sun and elements.

The rats I had gave me an average of 12-17 nice and big babies, with 9 being the fewest and 19 being the most I got from them per rat.

I now have just mice because I don't have room for rats atm, and I'm keeping them inside. They really don't smell all that much as long as I change the bedding at least every 2-3 weeks. After having the male in with the females for like 2 months, I've finally got my first babies today, haven't counted them yet, but from the peek I had they looked alive and healthy.

[Humble308]

Thanks for the input yall. Hopefully they start getting their rat on...but hear it takes a couple months for them to get settled in.

[Humble308]

Finally managed to catch the little dirty rat that's been scampering around behind our dishwasher. Lesson #1 : Have SECURE caging. Lesson #2 : Rats are much smarter than me LMAO.

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n127/Humble308/IMG_20160229_084505287_zpssi5abyeq.jpg (http://s111.photobucket.com/user/Humble308/media/IMG_20160229_084505287_zpssi5abyeq.jpg.html)

[daisymaisy]

Your post title made me think back to Bio class and Lamarck's evolutionary theories...I know that's not quite what you were asking though. :)

There are probably lots of studies that show chronic stress negatively affecting females and pregnancy. However, animals are also made to deal with some stress. So I think your girls will do fine. So as long as your rats have good hiding places and a good environment (and it looks like they do) I think you will be fine.

Now, if you want to raise up the pups and only breed the ones who are more friendly, you can make friendlier rats! How about trying to make friendly African Soft Furred rats? People are keeping them as pocket pets these days. I would love to keep some, but my cat would get them before the snakes I think, LOL.