The ethics of Live Feeding Pacman

[Herpo]

Hi all,

I've seen a ton of Youtube videos of people feeding their Pacman and Budgetts frogs live mice or other live animals. What do you all think about this? I personally disagree, while I find it fascinating, because alot of the time, the mice a swallowed alive, and are subsequently digested alive. Opinions?

Cheers everyone,
Herpo

[sirtalis]

Hmmmm... That's a hard one. Normally I'm fine with live feeding because it occurs in the wild and the mouse was bred to be fed to the animal.

[macandchz]

dear herpo, i personally am not for feeding live rodents, because of the fear that they could harm your snake if they would fight back. but if that is all your animal will eat, you really have no choice. my ball python has made up his mind that all he'll eat is fresh killed mice. i hate doing the killing but i tell myself it's all part of the food chain and i want my snake to thrive.

[jpsteele80]

I won't feed live personally although I have balls that will only eat live but there meals are so small they can't really fight back. I don't do it because of the damage that can be done to your animal

[AwesomeGuy376]

I would never feed my snake live unless I had to. Some snakes will only eat live food, so the owners don't really have an option. I don't mind the ethics much because it is natural, and to be honest, snakes need to eat too. But if I was to feed live, i would disorientated the mouse before hand so if doesn't cause damage to the snake. Luckly mine will eat pre-killed :)

[Kokorobosoi]

Well the original question was about pacman frogs, not snakes. Snakes tend to kill their prey then swallow. If I understand it correctly, pacman don't. If that is true, I would not do it. Is your animal refusing food, or was it more curiousity?

[AwesomeGuy376]

Lol I feel stupid I saw the post and thought it was about snakes XD my bad

[Minkness]

I feed whatever. If I feed live though, I feed smaller than if they were frozen to ensure the snake can handle it.

However, I use f/t for cost, soace, and time issues. I bred my own mice for a while and it was way more expensive than buying frozen and took more work to keep them clean, fed, and hydrated. So I got rid of that colony and stick to frozen.

Also, some snakes are terrified of live, so not all snakes take live, just like not all snakes take frozen.

Now, as far as posting live feedings on youtube....I find that a bit off putting because it really paints a bad picture in my mind. Not to mention that people get off to the 'pain and suffering' of the prey. No reason for all that. =/

Also, this goes for any animal. I don't care if itsa frog, snake, bird, or lion. Just because it happens in the wild doesn't mean it should be done in captivity.

[Herpo]

Well the original question was about pacman frogs, not snakes. Snakes tend to kill their prey then swallow. If I understand it correctly, pacman don't. If that is true, I would not do it. Is your animal refusing food, or was it more curiousity?

Well over here in Aus we can't have these so it was a curiosity question. I personally wouldn't feed live to any animal, other than inverts to reptiles, but I didn't want to start a debate because I know alot of people feed lives.

I ask because of the animal still being alive when eaten. It's crueler, IMO, than live feeding a snake. Especially when you see how voracious these frogs are when it comes to feeding, the would probably just as easily accept a F/T mouse danglin from tweezers.

[Oleman]

Tough to say. Personally I feed pre killed or f/t for safety reasons.
I'm sure a Pac-Man or two have been injured due to this. Is it truly ethical to decide on one or the other? That's tough, maybe it won't eat anything but alive. I have fed live a few times at the request of my siblings asking me to teach their children how it works. But that's for educational purposes.
I have had a few animals in the past feed only on live. I think k it should be decided on a individual basis.
Is it necessary? Is the owner doing for fun? Educational? Too many what ifs.

[jpsteele80]

I would think that a good sized adult mouse would be able to bite the inside of the frogs mouth pretty good but all the animals that i have see on you tube of pac man frogs eating them not 1 has ever spit it back out so maybe they have some sort of mechanism to prevent that? Either way if i can get an animal to eat pre killed i do it.

[chairman]

I started keeping snakes in the mid 90s in Daytona, FL. I was a kid and my sole sources of information were the owner of my local reptile shop and the library. Back then it was considered cruel to feed pre-killed prey. It was just wrong to deprive your predators the opportunity to hunt and kill prey. Then the internet kicked off and you heard about people that lost pets to feeders, learned that people feeding prekilled or frozen-thawed prey were having great success with their healthy animals.

In the current era, I really can't see any value in feeding live vertebrate prey to anything but an exceptionally problematic feeder. Bottom line, predators in the wild do not always survive the defensive measures attempted by prey. There really isn't any reason to put a captive pet at risk by feeding live prey capable of harming it.

[prairiepanda]

Many pacmans will only eat live and nothing else. Some can be persuaded to eat pre-killed or frozen/thawed by wiggling the prey by hand(on tongs, of course), but many will nip it and then let it go when they realize it's not alive. Maybe they have very sensitive digestive systems that are easily damaged by something in partially decomposed prey and instinctively avoid eating anything that is dead.

That said, for those that will consistently eat dead prey I would definitely prefer it over live. It is a bit of a moral conflict since they're digested alive, but it's also a matter of cost and safety for the frog.

[Herpo]

I agree that if there is no other choice, live feeding is possibly the best option. To me the problem was just that they seemed to do it out of entertainment. I saw a video of them feeding a BP (dead) to a Pacman, and I had no problem with that beacause it was dead. However, I would've been furious if the poor thing was dissolved alive.

[Pareeeee]

Well, I am a snake owner, not a frog owner, but I do have a snake that refused to eat frozen/thawed mice for quite a while. It was not pleasant feeding him live, but it was necessary. I don't have a problem with live feeding under these circumstances. These things happen in the wild all the time and we have no control over it.

However, while it is natural, in captivity we have control and should allow the animals under our care to undergo the least amount of suffering as possible. That includes feeder mice. In my opinion, it is unethical to make videos of live feedings just for the thrill (when their animal would otherwise readily take f/t prey).

Feeder ethics does not stop at live feeding, however. Frozen feeders may be killed humanely, but were they raised humanely too? As with any livestock animal, I believe that feeder mice should be cared for as if they were your pets. Their lives, however short they may be, should at least be enjoyable.