Unfair bad rep?

[trailblazer295]

So this is the result of how my brain works. As I'm being talked into buying a hog *cough* Mink *cough*. Which of course feeding came to mind but it got me wondering. Some species like hogs and BPs have the reputation for being problem feeders. But they are among species commonly recommended for newbies because of easily manageable size, good temperament, reasonable temperature/humidity needs and pretty hardy for mistakes in conditions and cleaning. But being often purchased by newbies made me think that the root of the problem might be more the keeper and the environment in which the snake is placed. I wonder if improper temp/humidity, cage size, stress (frequent handling/high traffic area), insufficient cage cleaning which would be things newbies are more likely to do is the root of the cause of this reputation of these and other species painted with the broad brush. There are oddballs in every species that are on one end of the spectrum or the other.

My personal experience with my BP has been excellent, other than this breeding season he has never refused a meal despite moving home Dec 2014, to the store for boarding April 2015, back home May 2015 and moved with me to my house June 2015. At the store the guy told me he was a eating machine, he would eat any rat refused by another snake the little pig.

I'm curious what more experienced keepers have found? Do they really deserve this reputation?

[Minkness]

This is a great idea! All of my hogs are pretty regular eaters minus the usual winter months. They will also take multiple items, up to 3. My BPs also rater ever miss with my big boy only going off food for only 5 weeks of winter and seems to already be back on track.

So, for me, 2 notoriously 'bad' eaters have been very easy. =)

[RAD House]

My single young ball python is the only snake who has not missed a meal this winter. The only problem feeder I have had is my black rat snake which are supposed to be great feeders.

[macandchz]

don't get over-confident about bp's. i'm sure there's some real experts out there (i'm certainly not), that have had bp's go on hunger strikes. mine was fine for 9 months then started to get finickey. nothing about my care changed.

[prairiepanda]

I think in the case of BPs a lot of it could be attributed to beginner error. Some individuals do go on hunger strikes related to temperature and breeding seasons even in ideal conditions, but the "finicky" eating seems to be a symptom of newbie care habits.

I think it's a bit different for hoggies, though. Established hogs under good conditions tend to eat well, but even professionals often have difficulty getting babies started in the beginning. I wouldn't say they're difficult feeders in general, but they're difficult to start on feeding so it's important for beginners especially to make sure the hogs they're getting are already well-established eaters.

[Minkness]

Well said Panda!

This is why I don't really want to breed my hoggies. I don't want to deal with difficult hatchlings. And, all of mine I got as well started babies or juvies, and rarely have issues with feeding.

I have also noticed that they don't slam food down like a kingsnake or even a BP. My hogs have basically put themselves on a bi-weekly feeding schedue, and are the only ones to refuse while in shed. They may be a bit more sparce in feeding, but I hardly find them 'finiky' or 'difficult'.

[trailblazer295]

Well said Panda!

This is why I don't really want to breed my hoggies. I don't want to deal with difficult hatchlings. And, all of mine I got as well started babies or juvies, and rarely have issues with feeding.

I have also noticed that they don't slam food down like a kingsnake or even a BP. My hogs have basically put themselves on a bi-weekly feeding schedue, and are the only ones to refuse while in shed. They may be a bit more sparce in feeding, but I hardly find them 'finiky' or 'difficult'.

I've often read about hogs being difficult to get going and the importance of finding a baby that eats okay. I don't really consider snakes going off feed during breeding/winter as a problem as it's a very natural behaviour for them.

[macandchz]

i would like to hear from other ball python owners on this subject.

[Andy_G]

I produced a few hundred hognose from a couple different bloodlines. Out of those few hundred, perhaps 10 needed scenting to start eating, for which I used bufo americanus that a friend kept. The few babies that required scenting, all of them only needed a couple scented meals before switching over without fuss. I know that when I was producing these snakes, I was keeping the hatchlings in smaller containers and warmer than some other breeders. Back then, everybody was keeping them at room temp with a mid 80's hot spot because "they're not boids"... I was doing low 80's ambient with a low 90's hot spot. Now a lot of the care sheets match that. I can't say for certain that's why I never had issues because you would think that's the norm now with the higher temps being more the norm now and people still have issues for some reason that I never even remotely experienced. They were easier than most other species to me and such voracious feeders, both as hatchlings and adults. Perhaps I was just lucky?

I'm not a ball guy and I never was so there is very little light I can shed on the subject...at expos I usually completely bypass looking at them honestly..but I had them for a short time and it was only a few animals which I only bred for one season...but I remember one male that would only eat 3 months out of the year once reaching adulthood no matter what...in spite of this maintained excellent weight and everyone else ate fine. He was cb from excellent lines as well.

[macandchz]

dear andy-thanks for your reply. i disagree that it is newbies that make mistakes with balls and that's why they can be problem children. i'm sure you knew exactly what you were doing.

[Albert Clark]

i would like to hear from other ball python owners on this subject.

There are several reasons why ball pythons go "off feed". The one that tops the list is improper husbandry which may be temps and or humidity or something very simple as the substrate. Positioning of the actual enclosure can also be a reason as well as a young adult reaching a weight of 1000 gms. Known as the "1000 gm wall". As prarie mentioned seasonal and breeding obstacles cause inappetance in ball pythons as well. Finally, and sometimes easily missed, would be illnesses the python may be harboring. Hope this sheds some light on the reputation of ball pythons. I don't look at it as bad or good, it's just who they are as reptiles in a captive world. :D

[macandchz]

dear al, quastions!!! what did you mean about the substrate throwing a bp off feed? also, explain more about the 1000gm wall. what did you mean about positioning of the enclosure? this is getting over-whelming!

[Andy_G]

I believe he means where the enclsure is placed...if placed in a higher traffic area of the house, stress levels would be higher for the snake than if placed in a room less frequented, possihly resulting in feeding complications. Not sure about the substrate thing though as I used newspaper in a rack with the balls...never tried anything else with them in particular.

[Minkness]

Well, in a way, ANY change can cause stress. Every animal is different of course so will stress at different things.

So, you use newspaper substrate, but say that a new owner puts the snake on coco husk. It's completely different and, if it is a sensitive snake, may stress it out for a while until it gets used to it, which could take a week, a month, or longer depending on the animal.

[Andy_G]

So, you use newspaper substrate, but say that a new owner puts the snake on coco husk. It's completely different and, if it is a sensitive snake, may stress it out for a while until it gets used to it, which could take a week, a month, or longer depending on the animal.

Very true...which is precisely why one should implement a hands off policy for all new acquisitions until feeding properly, as we all know. :)

[Aaron_S]

In no particular order....

1. I am in agreement with Andy. In general I think people kept most of their reptile pets too cold and most still do. Hotter temps, only by a few degrees, increases activity and appetite.

2. Ball pythons, among other "beginner" species, fall victim to being really difficult to kill even with multiple mistakes on the keeper part. So when they go off feed people chalk it up to "oh it's a ball python" instead of really scrutinizing their keeping. To be fair, ball pythons have a bad eating habit that goes back decades to fresh imports.

3. I've stated this before and I'll say it again, Justin Koboylka(I think thats how you spell his last name) wrote an article on this topic on ball pythons. He said that we have to go look at ball python natural habits. They live in abandoned termite mounds, rodent burrows and etc. They go into these systems and eat whatever rodent family made them a nest then sit in wait for another unsuspecting prey item to come wander by.
Now, if these ambush predators are lying in wait, what's the #1 give away to a prey that a predator is near? Smell. Two things ball pythons do that smell, poop and shed. So what they do is usually do both together to get rid of the smell at the same time, and if they linger there they know that a potential meal will notice and skip them.

So JK used this to get any non-eaters eating. He would switch them to a brand new bin in his rack systems, even moving to a different rack system. He then experienced these non-eaters beginning to eat again within 2 weeks of the move whereas it usually took a number of weeks longer than that.

4. In my experiences I found that ball pythons tend to have a few more feeding issues than other species. My ball pythons are very good eaters, my adult males don't miss feedings and neither do my females unless gravid. My customers report to me that the babies do fantastically well for them. However, I'll have an animal miss one meal here or there for no apparent reason. Considering that they are kept in a rack system and it's a single animal when dozens of others are fed and eating it tells me it's either a shed I missed and it's a day away from shedding or simply a ball python thing.

To sum it up, it really is keeper error 9/10 times.