Blackheaded Pythons?

[Derek Roddy]

So, a friend of mine (many years ago) brought this up on another forum and I'd thought I'd get some opinions here.

The question....


"Hello "other python" keepers! I have a question I was hoping many of you could help me answer. I always hear or read people saying I am going to get some blackheaded pythons or blackheads are on my wish list or I really want to get some blackheaded pythons. So I had a question for python keepers!

Is anybody here wanting to get some Blackheads?

What makes you not have any now?

Is it price? Size? Rumors of difficulty breeding? Hard to find?

Or is it several of those reasons combined?

Or have you recently bought some?

I know they are not cheap and I know times are a little tough to be buying expensive snakes but I'd like some feedback. What are you thinking about blackheaded pythons...if anything.

Your input is appreciated!"

Pretty self explanatory really.

What do you guys think? (there's a reason I'm asking this question BTW so, be ready for a lengthy discussion about a few topics)....that is if you guys want to discuss.

AND...you can replace "Blackhead Python" with any other species that you haven't thought about obtaining before or haven't saved enough, or wishing you had, etc.
(Disclaimer......haha

I know it's Christmas so be patient on the responses....but, I (and I'm sure others) truly are interested.)

Cheers,
D

[Minkness]

For blackheads.....price and esthetics. They are neat looking, but over all, just not my thing. Same with womas. I might consider one in the future since I do greatly enjoy having a diverse collection, but the price would need to come waaaaaay down.

I do not look at wase or difficulty breeding since I have no plans of doing such. Maybe BPs some tine in the future, but that's far off and only speculative for now.

[Bandit]

Price is my issue. I'm not in a position to be buying much of anything right now, but a blackhead is just way out of reach. One day I'll have one, but that will probably be a few years down the line.

I don't think I have a substitute for one...maybe a woma. But I'm not sure I could call that a substitute because even if I did get a BHP I'd still like a woma anyway.

[Derek Roddy]

Great guys thanks....remember..."blackheads" is just a reference for many species that might seem "out of reach" or "I'll get them eventually"....can be any species you strive for.

(Although, I do like to hear the response about the BHPs)

And go..... haha.

D

[Minkness]

In that case, the one I kind of want but is out of reach would probably be an indigo. I think they are super cool looking but the price definitely keeps me from ever hoping for one unless the price went way down.

Also, I just don't understand why any snake is sooooo expensive. Even certain BP morphs. I saw one that was 10k!!!

I can understand not being cheap, but there's a limit I think that actually starts to hinder their ability to grow within the hobby. Outsideof actual inport/export fees of course.

[EL Ziggy]

For me it would probably be an Eastern Indigo. We can't keep them here in GA and they're still a bit pricey. I'm not sure if I'm ready to fork over a G for a snake just yet but I might. :)

[RAD House]

I think price and availability keep me from the species I would like to work with. I would love an indigo snake or axanthic black tailed cribo but both are out of my price range. I also would love to keep an eyelash boa but they are impossible to find. I may have some interest in black headed pythons but again the price is what dissuades me.

[Bandit]

I think I'll have join everyone else in this and say Indigos. They're such cool snakes, but the price gets me on those as well. But Blackheads are probably the biggest example for me on a snake that I really want, but just can't afford.

[Sylphie]

Well... I want a woma/bhp and indigo's too. But there like everyone said is the price that is really high, they are soo rare that I know like one breeder of each species (some not in my country)... and also there is the problem with them being too big and strong for me (in case of indigos and bhp), as I'm having some serious problems with my spine.

[chairman]

I wouldn't think that price is much of an issue. If you can afford to feed it then you can afford to put away that food money to save for an animal. It might take years to save the money but we're talking about something you really want. People pursue morph breeding projects for a decade before getting where they want to be, putting a little aside for a special addition isn't too crazy to consider.

I think my constraints are care related. I'll never own an animal that requires team handling because my wife isn't a fan of snakes and my kids will not be living in my house forever. I'm unlikely to own anything that doesn't generally tolerate handling well because I like to interact with my animals. I prefer to provide larger than usual housing for my animals so space will always be a limiting factor. I also prefer species without a large footprint in the hobby, I like to believe that breeding such species is generally helpful.

These limits have allowed me to map out my options for future additions and have proven helpful in preventing impulse purchases. For those animals I do want, patience is the name of the game.

[riddick07]

I want a blackheaded python eventually. The cost is high but I've pretty much spent the equivalent the past month on snakes between new ones and cages. I generally think I haven't gotten one yet really because they aren't at the top of the list for me. I wanted the woma more than the bhp for example and I just got the woma.

I don't think there is a snake right now that I want that is above the cost of the bhp...so really it's just the amount of animals I can buy at once. I've added three new ones in the past month and the combined cost is higher than the bhp. Plus, generally people find that paying a huge sum at once a deterrent compared to the equivalent of multiple smaller purchases. Another factor for me which I'm sure will slow down my buying more snakes is my college loans popping up within the next 6 months....depending on the payment required on them I won't be spending as much on new snakes for awhile or maybe as quickly as I have been recently.

[Derek Roddy]

This is great everyone....thanks for the replies.

I'll let a few more stack up then I'll get to the reason I was asking to begin with.

Cheers,
D

[Aaron_S]

I personally think people like the "allure" of "rare" or uncommon species but when push comes to shove they simply choose the more "regular" animals.

I believe price is an issue (yet $5000 for a ball, boa or carpet python were easy to find money for)
I think their size is one
Finally, care and ability to breed. I bet I could breed blackheads and out sell any ball python breeder. However, most people couldn't regularly produce them. (which cycles to the rarity and allure of having them)

[Minkness]

Rareity may be one thing. But I have seen some 'rare' snakes that I wasn't as interested in that are cheaper than medium rare animals.

It also comes down to what the actual herp community hobby IS. Is it a breeding circle where every animal has to have a value, or are they pets and should be available for any general enthusiast?

BPs are good example of this. Morphs are all about the breeders, but the snakes themselves started out as just being good pets. I can almost guarantee that you won't see a common pet owner with a BP that's 5k and NOT have plans to breed it.

Not to mention the fickleness of the dollar worth of an animal. This time last year a female banana bp with no other added genes was easily 800+. This year, I have seen a banana pastel female close to breeding size at 450 shipped.

I don't like the indigo because it's rare. I love the look of it. The color and face structure. The size is a bit daunting but if the animal it's self wasn't so expensive, I could get the snake small, put it in cheaper, smaller tanks, and save up for a really nice large tank along the way.

Also, someone else brought it up that they may spend the same amount on 5 snakes combined which feeds our own personal hobby and enjoyment instead of just one snake.

Horses are also expensive. Some more than others. Looking at a grade quarter horse you cpuld get one from free to 500$. But a gypsy vanner? Depending on breeding can be between 10-20k. It's still a horse.....

That's how I see snakes. Sure some will be cheaper, but to me, there's a cap of just being rediculusly over priced. It's not the animal it's self that makes it rare. It's the price tags we put on them (usually). If you have a difficult to breed snake, and you are the only one breeding and selling it, of course it will be in 'high demand'. And only the select few who can afford it, will have it. But, if it's difficult to breed, and you have 10 peopl with viable breeders who know what they are doing....it no longer makes them that rare.

I may get flamed for saying this, but to me, there is no reason to have a SUPER expensive reptile. They do not work, earn money, or provide any actual use. They are a hobby that you can enjoy in pease in your own home. The only 'use' reptiles have is to be bred and sold to make back the money orriginally spent on it, which is kind of sad.

That being said, I thoroughly enjoy breeding, hatching, growing, and selling my crestie babies. But I also don't put a massive price tag on them. I produce some babies that are easily worth 150$ unsexed. But I don't ship. I ONLY sell locally, which usually means people looking for pets, not potential breeders. So my 150$ babies usually get sold for 50$. More expensive than the petstore, but still reasonable for a pet.

[Sylphie]

I agree 100% with all what you said Mink! :)

[reptiledude987]

For myself theres a few things I would love to add but am held back by the cost. A great basin ETB would be awesome but Ive only ever seen wild caught specimens and due to their sensitive nature there would be a high mortality rate on imports. which being 10-15k or more each isnt plausible for me. the one thing that may be attainable at some point although I havent investigated the price. Theres a certain breeder Ive seen some pics from who has a line of "Tangerine Dream BHPs" which are most certainly very close to the top of the must have list ;)

[Nightflight99]

Interesting discussion. In my experience, the three main factors that drive the demand in the herp trade are 1) the level of availability in the trade, 2) the coloration & pattern, and 3) the potential of the animal to serve as a status animal.

The level of availability in the trade is different from it being rare, since the ladder is a relative term--is it rare in the trade or rare in the wild? Or both? Or just elusive? Or for other reasons unavailable? Ultimately, these dynamics result in the common balance of supply & demand, but a lot of people have a difficult time wrapping their heads around the idea that a certain snake is worth X amount, whereas something else that may appear to be much more desirable is worth significantly less. Lots of reptile keepers like the idea of keeping an animal that is considered to be unique or rare, simply because this appears to be desirable, and to some people it may elevate their own perceived social status within the community. If an animal has the ability to do so, then that in itself makes it desirable to a lot of people, and as a result they are willing to pay significantly for that animal.

The color and pattern of a snake can also be a very strong driver of demand. As a general rule, people tend to enjoy animals that have bright colors, strong contrast, and a clean pattern. If the animal shares those traits to an extend that it would be considered highly unusual, then the demand and the associated price tag may increase significantly. The appetite for the unusual also works into the opposite direction of that spectrum--toward to darker, more monotonous phenotypes. However, the effect in that direction is often (but not always) less severe.

It also comes down to what the actual herp community hobby IS. Is it a breeding circle where every animal has to have a value, or are they pets and should be available for any general enthusiast?
I think the price dynamics within the herpetoculture community are not as different from those of non-living products as we would like for them to be. Supply and demand dictate the prices, which tend to oscillate for non-morphs and act on a negatively-sloped curve for morphs. What this means is that the prices of morphs have a tendency to start high and then drop into a bottomless pit within just a few years. On the other hand, the prices of non-morphs tend to oscillate with availability. Over the years, species that are expensive are bred more frequently, which increases the supply and sends the prices tumbling. At some point, a lot of breeders abandon those projects and the supply eventually drops, allowing for the prices to increase again.


I may get flamed for saying this, but to me, there is no reason to have a SUPER expensive reptile. They do not work, earn money, or provide any actual use. They are a hobby that you can enjoy in pease in your own home. The only 'use' reptiles have is to be bred and sold to make back the money orriginally spent on it, which is kind of sad.
This is the only aspect of your post that I disagree with. It is of course true that reptiles are not working animals, and you (regrettably) cannot train your boa to help you carry groceries or help us fend off attackers. (The occasional Jehovah's Witness at your front door not withstanding...:rolleyes:). However, I don't find money that is spent on purely recreational activities to be unjustified. In fact, I would argue that just the opposite is the case--it makes much more sense to spend money on your passions in life, and on those activities or items that bring you personal happiness. If keeping a $5k snake is what brings you happiness, then I see zero problems with spending that money (obviously assuming that you're still able to pay your bills & responsibilities). After all, you cannot really put a price on happiness, nor can you define it for anyone but yourself.

As a general statement, I've never been able to understand people that are so frugal and unwilling to spend money on anything that their entire lives are spent saving for a day that never arrives. Live life to the fullest, be passionate about your interests, and have fun!

[Bandit]

As a general statement, I've never been able to understand people that are so frugal and unwilling to spend money on anything that their entire lives are spent saving for a day that never arrives. Live life to the fullest, be passionate about your interests, and have fun!I agree with you here, very much so. I have a couple of good friends that won't spend money on anything. I just don't see the point. When I was saying price is standing in my way, I should've clarified that it's just for now. With just starting school again and not making much money, there's no good reason I should spend that amount of money on a snake. However I can easily justify spending that amount once I'm out of school and am working full-time again.

[Minkness]

Excelnt points of view and well written.

However, your statement of frugality leads me to believe that you come from a higher means than most. To me, 5k is a down payment on a house, a brand new car, some college classes even. It's also a vacation, new cloths, and sooooo much more.

To me it isn't frugality so much as priority. Even a 5k 4 wheeler can be enjoyed by more than just the owner, and, if well maintained, has little cost in upkeep. Not to mention, you may only have 1 of those expensive items. A 3k tv? Bet you don't have 5 of those in your house.... (if you do, then damn....)

However, your point of the definition of rarity is spot on and I couldn't agree more. However, it is still us as humans who put the price tags on stuff, including animals. Their cost and subsiquant rareity is what makes these animals a 'status symbol' just like aomeone who drives a Mercedes. Fewer than most can afford a high end car or a mansion of a house. So those who can are seen differently by those who can't. It's the same with any animal. Certain dog or cat breeds, horses, birds, reptiles, even fish all have a monetary value on them that makes them more 'rare' simply because of the general lack of affordability.

All that being said, I will probably never be able to afford what I REALLY want if it stays that expensive. I haven't been able to save up more than 500$ at a time...and I am one of those unlucky people that every time I get a tax refund, my car breaks down.....or my animals get sick....last year it was both....over 1k to repair my car then another 1k to have a surgery done on a cat that turned out to have cancer and be put down....I actually went into debt on that one and still working ot off little by little.

Obviouslythe high prices aren't a total deterant or else they would never sell. But that's what makes them expensive, hard to come by, and so on. Owned only by the people who CAN drop that cash on a 'non-necessity'.

[reptiledude987]

[QUOTE=Nightflight99;982183] It is of course true that reptiles are not working animals, and you (regrettably) cannot train your boa to help you carry groceries or help us fend off attackers. (The occasional Jehovah's Witness at your front door not withstanding...:rolleyes:).[QUOTE=Nightflight99;982183]


Aww really? So does this mean that my attempt to train a guard boa for my house has been in vain? Well back to the drawing board lol.

[Nightflight99]

However, your statement of frugality leads me to believe that you come from a higher means than most.
Ha--don't I wish! I'm a scientist and teach college courses, neither of which are fields that I would recommend to anyone who is attempting to maximize their budget. My point was simply that every one of us must define their own happiness, and thus those items that may seem wasteful at X cost to some of us, may seem perfectly reasonable (or a bargain even) to others.

However, it is still us as humans who put the price tags on stuff, including animals. Their cost and subsiquant rareity is what makes these animals a 'status symbol' just like aomeone who drives a Mercedes. Fewer than most can afford a high end car or a mansion of a house. So those who can are seen differently by those who can't. It's the same with any animal. Certain dog or cat breeds, horses, birds, reptiles, even fish all have a monetary value on them that makes them more 'rare' simply because of the general lack of affordability.
I agree, except in the point that the monetary value is not randomly or ambiguously placed upon those products and then result in a high demand. It is the other way around--the high demand causes the prices of those products to be high. For example, in the 90s and early 2000s, Angolan pythons were not very commonly kept in the trade, because they were considered to be rare in the wild and additionally could not be legally exported. Thus, the supply was low and as a result the available specimens were fetching prices for thousands of dollars. Of course, this made them more attractive to investment breeders, who in turn increased the supply, which dropped the prices significantly. These days, you can find hatchlings for $500 or less, which would have been unthinkable back then. The point is that the supply & demand in the trade set the prices. And yes--I agree with the argument that once something is considered to be valuable, it makes it that much more desirable to many people.

[Nightflight99]

It is of course true that reptiles are not working animals, and you (regrettably) cannot train your boa to help you carry groceries or help us fend off attackers. (The occasional Jehovah's Witness at your front door not withstanding...:rolleyes:).
Aww really? So does this mean that my attempt to train a guard boa for my house has been in vain? Well back to the drawing board lol.
You just need to get the right species--perhaps a crocodile monitor? :p

[eminart]

I'm not a rich person, so money is always an issue. But, my dream snake is an eastern indigo, and I set my sights on getting one and did it. My biggest issue is space, time, and, again, money. I have to prioritize each. The indigo was a priority. Maybe someday I'll have enough money, space, and time to add a Boelyn's python to the mix.

[Minkness]

Ah yes. In that I agree, and completely understand as I mentioned the cost of inport/export adds to the cost of the animal (not necessarily the value though). This brings it back around to the concept that 'most' high dollar reptiles are breeder specific thoug, and move only within the society of breeers for a long time before trickling down into the actual pet/hobby trade.

There are MANY BP morphs that I adore just because of their looks, not breeding potential. But they are priced to be sold to other breeders who's job it is to make a proffit from that animal. Back to bananas. Even a male, who would only produce more males, was once suuuuper expensive, so only other breeders got them for a long time. Then BAM. They found out that regardless of gender, anything bred to a banana can make more bananas. They stayed high priced for a bit, but now that there are indeed soooo many of them, they are now closer to a pet price.

Of course there are ebs and flows to anything with value in the beginning. Shoot, I remember when DVDs FIRST came out and were 50$ a peice! Now you can find them 3 for 7$ at walmart.

Mayne the same will happen with some high priced snakes, or maybe not because they will purposfully limit the production.

Neon red sided garters for instance. They are reasonably priced (kind of) but so few people actually breed them that their price has stayed the same for 3 years (that I know of). And, I thinknthe breeders are all in on it because their is almost no difference in price between the breeders. And they aren't exactly difficult to breed. To me, if I can get an albino checkard for 50 bucks (or less depending) then the neon should be closer in price as well. Same snake, same breeding ease, just a different color, and not a morph so shouldn't be hard to reproduce. This is just opinion of course as I have no real understanding of breeding since I am that peraob who really just wants pretty pets...lots and lots of pretty pets lol.

[Minkness]

Em, there is of course a difference between not rich and living paycheck to paycheck. It's easier to save if you are at least middle class income (which is quickly disapearing and a whole other discussion). I'm not sure how long tou actively saved to get Loki (who needs a gf btw...hehe ), but it took me about 6 months just to save up for the repticon trip I took where I got Moko and Horus. Both were super cheap for what they are. I didn't want to drop that much $ on snakes, but I couldn't pass up the deal!

I will also admit, I am impatient and like more 'instant' gratification at times. I made payments on 2 of my cresties for 4 months because the seller was amazing and so nice to hold them that long for me. But again, I just happened to get lucky finding that deal with that breeder. Right now I am lookingat possibly a 3 month payment plan on another snake....though I really shouldn't be.... =/

[eminart]

Em, there is of course a difference between not rich and living paycheck to paycheck. It's easier to save if you are at least middle class income (which is quickly disapearing and a whole other discussion).


Oh, I don't disagree with that at all. Ten years ago, an indigo would have been out of the question, and was. As I've said, I'd lusted after them for nearly 30 years before I finally got one of my own. I finally got to a place financially where I could do it, although it was still a huge expense for us.

[Minkness]

I can see that being a thing. But for 'most' people, they don't wait 30 years. I think you are a rare case willing to go that above and beyond for just one snake.

[reptiledude987]

I can see that being a thing. But for 'most' people, they don't wait 30 years. I think you are a rare case willing to go that above and beyond for just one snake.

Well yes and no mink. I want my great basin etb. Its not happening any time soon. However if the price drops (dramitically) 30 years from now Ill be right on top of it.

[Minkness]

So you are another rareity ;)

I'm not saying it doesn't exist, it's just not very common. By 30 years lives change, sometimes super dramatically. By 30 years I may be able to afford those snakes too. And if that's the case, you bet your bunns I'll be getting my hands on an eastern indigo. But that is so far into the future, I just don't bank on it. Kind of like me eventually owning a super dwarf purple albino sunfire retic. It's a posibility, but not a guarantee.

Also, there is a difference between waiting out the market and being able to afford 'now'. You can try to save up 5k for a snake over 5 years. Totally doable. But, by 5 years, it may not be that much anyway. But hey, if it's only 1k, then yoh have 4k more to spend elsewhere!

[reptiledude987]

I wish the great basins were only 5k. Ideally Id want a pair (as I do for most things I keep). With that sepcies being extreemly sensitive to husbandry being spot on I would anticipate a high mortality rate on impordet wc's as well. Which at current pricing on them (if they can even be located) I would expect the total cost to end up with a healthy pair of long term captives would probably run close to the 100k mark.

[Minkness]

....yeah....no....just...there is nothing in this world outside of a house that I would pay that much for XD

Even if I COULD!

[Nightflight99]

Em, there is of course a difference between not rich and living paycheck to paycheck.
I think you would be surprised to hear how many people in the reptile community (myself included) went through a very similar situation as you for many, many years. In fact, most of the long-term keepers that I have known over the years have struggled with financial challenges over prolonged periods of time. More to the point, I think it is part of being passionate about the things that we enjoy that makes us constantly push and try to reach our goals, be they recreational or otherwise. Many of us have spent our last dimes on our hobbies and passions, only to have our collections that took years to build devastated by heating or cooling malfunctions, or by natural disasters. It takes time and a lot of dedication to stay in this hobby for the long term, and the financial struggle that is associated with building the target collection is ever abundant. That said, it also builds character and helps you meet a lot of good people, and it makes some of the successful episodes (may that be the acquisition or breeding of a particular animal) that much more gratifying.

Just some food for thought.

[Minkness]

I agree completely woth you in all of that. Buuuut, the orriginal question was what keeps us from having the snakes (or reptiles) of our dreams. Not wether ot not it would 'eventually' be atainable.

[dannybgoode]

If only it were money that was stopping me from growing my collection. I have just one CA BCI.

None of the snakes I'd like to obtain are silly money - a GTP a BRB and perhaps a carpet or Macklots python and then something like a gopher snake.

Even factoring in the fact they'd each need a viv etc the money isn't daft.

Trouble is I have something far more difficult to overcome than funding. A wife that doesn't particularly like snakes and isn't that happy that I have one, nevermind multiple residents!

[RAD House]

Minkness, California red sided garters are as much as they are because of supply and demand. There are many more checkered garters on the market than red sided garters. Even the albino morph is mass produced by large breeders, where as the Calis are produced by a surprisingly few small breeders. I know because I have had to hunt down both, and actually had an easier time locating albino checkereds than the wild type. I am not sure on the reason for this but it may have to do with the fact that T.s. infernalis is becoming increasingly rare in the wild and I think there are some pretty tough laws on collecting them. Also the Neon blue California red sided garters, that I think you are referring too, actually are a morph. They are naturally occurring but not all specimens of the subspecies have bright blues. In the place of the blue they can have turquoise, blackish blue, or even white. They stay the same price every year because the demand far exceeds the supply and people are willing to pay the price.

As for snakes being too expensive, I think we covered that some people can not afford a certain animal but there is another side. I most certainly could save up enough to buy a thousand dollar snake, but I just refuse to pay this much for a snake at this point in my life. I think the most I consider reasonable to spend on a snake is $300 and that is pushing it a bit. The reason I got into the hobby was discovering pied ball pythons online four or so years ago. I could have afforded one, but could simply not stomach it. I waited those four years until I found one in the price range I consider reasonable, and early this coming year I will become the proud owner of my first dream snake. I feel the same way about dogs and my limit is about the same. I understand this is entirely arbitrary but I am nothing if not stubborn.

[Minkness]

Oh, I know the breeder are few and far between. The neons are actually one of my personal dream snakes. I don't consider them over priced, just more than I'd prefer to spend on a garter. However, I do plan on getting a pair or trio probably next year. Thise are the 1 snake I have wanted sunce I got into snakes and fully wisb to breed them if only to add to the available numbers to the hobby. =)

You and I seem to have the same view on 'reasonable' as well. 300 is pretty much my cut off as well. Though I admit, that if I get into vreeding BPs, I may bump that up to 600 since then they wouldn't just be pets and I would eventually earn it back. But this is inly an 'if' scenario. =)

[RAD House]

I will warn you that as beautiful as the infernalis are they certainly make up for it in terrible attitude. Granted my male is still young but from my research it seems to be the case with this sub species. Great display snake, but certainly not the most handleable garter. I have heard that females are more tolerable.

The nice thing about breeding ball pythons is that seemingly all the morphs are dominant, co-dominant, and at the worst single recessive. Making breeding to get the more expensive combinations really not take all that long. Also there are so many great affordable morphs out there that in my opinion the more expensive new morphs just aren't worth the price tag. What morph are you interested in at $600?

[MDT]

Snakes have always been a hobby for me. As I have gotten older, and realized that at some point, I may be able to recoup a (very small) portion of my investment over the years (read: since 1975), hey, I'm all in. But with a few caveats. It's still a hobby for me that keeps me sane and out of the casinos. Additionally, I'm fortunate enough to have a few higher end snakes that limit potential buyers to those who will likely not buy them on a whim just to dump them on Craig's List a few months later and will actually care for them. If I never sell a snake, I'm cool with that.

With that being said, Derek...if you can get your hands on a pair of Boelens, we need to talk :)

[RAD House]

Good call MDT Boelen's are one of the most beautiful snakes I have ever seen, but are equally unattainable.

[Sylphie]

The nice thing about breeding ball pythons is that seemingly all the morphs are dominant, co-dominant, and at the worst single recessive. Making breeding to get the more expensive combinations really not take all that long. Also there are so many great affordable morphs out there that in my opinion the more expensive new morphs just aren't worth the price tag. What morph are you interested in at $600?

That's what I love in balls too! So many different combinations without probelms and years of waiting like in corn snakes where practically all the morphs are recessive. And like you said there is so much nice "normal" morphs, that you don't need the crazy, super expensive morphs unless you want to be a super pro breeder :D

[Minkness]

I would only spend 600$ on a morph I asthetically like, plan to keep long term, and that has multi genetics to add to any breeding options. Like the lesser GHI female I saw recently. My main focus if I should start breeding will be lessers, bananas, g stripes, and mojaves. Right now the most expensive snake on my want list is 400$ and is a lesser g stripe that makes me droooool. Lol. If I had 40$ right NOW, I'd have bought it already. But alas....I am a broke Mink.

Also, thanks for the heads up on the attitude of the neons. I don't mind a feisty snake, but I know they can be difficult to sell. I will certainly keep that in mind when I go to buy mine. I had planned on getting a female first anyway because of the size. Didn't know there would be a temperment issue.

Then again, I kinda fell in love with an evil worm known as a rough scale sand boa that continuously tagged me like 7-10 times in the span of like...5 mins lol. 10 grams of HAAAATE! But I thought his anger was so cute lol. Probably would change my tune if it was 4 feet long though lol. It was like...maaaaybe 5 inches....lol!

[reptiledude987]

With that being said, Derek...if you can get your hands on a pair of Boelens, we need to talk :)

I have a list where I can order boelenes from but theyre wild caught. Dont quote me on the price as I dont have the list in front of me but if I remember correctly they are $1000

[RAD House]

They are not bitters just constantly trying to escape and musk. Most snakes will calm down after a bit of handling but that is not true of my male. He is like an insanely wiggly and stinky noodle no matter how much I handle him. To be honest I have more or less designated him as a display snake at this point. Their tiny size as babies is no help and their musk is the worst I have experienced so far. On the other had their is no way I would not have one in my collection due to their stunning colors.

[Minkness]

Same. I will personally own them either way. =)

[reptiledude987]

I was almost able to get a pair of the San Francisco garters (Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia) from someone who had 6 up for sale. They were pricy but for a species thats on the endangered list in the wild to be able to breed them in captivity and at least help increase their numbers in capitivity. This is something that I would find to be very rewarding and worth paying the price that was being asked for them. The pair was selling for $700. For their rarity in both the wild and captivity as well as how amazing they look I felt that would be a price I would be willing to pay for something like that. Unfortunately the seller backed out of the sale however if I find any again I will be right on top of it!

[jossh27]

availability is definitely the biggest factor, then price, then quality of animal. i littlde bit ago i went on a pretty big hunt for bhp in canada and the end result was that i couldn't find find the visual quality of animal i wanted. First BHP's i saw were from your site, derek and it set the bar so damn high i feel i may never get one... thanks, haha

sorry availability, quality then price is what held me back from obtaining one

[Derek Roddy]

OK Thanks everyone for answering this thread for me.

I'm in the middle of doing a market study about this topic and just wanted to get a better idea of where various "groups" of reptile keepers stand on this issue.

It's more of a study of the buyer.....not the animals.


That said, I have to find various forums to make this study as I've noticed that certain forums, have certain keepers.

For example, this forum has a majority of "hobbyist" (not so much interested in the breeding of a species but, more of everyday enjoyment, etc) and that's great.

Where as... a forum like Bush League has "breeders" and lots of them....and that's cool too.

So it would be no surprise, that the answers over there are completely different than the answers here. And that's great because none of us do this for the same reasons.

My curiosity was peaked when an argument started over what people would pay for an animal and the reasons they would pay that much.

Of course, everyone has their own thoughts about the hobby (on a whole) but was interesting to hear what people "thought" about this subject.


And I guess it all depends on what it is you want to get out of the hobby.

For me, I've had a snake since I was 4 years old. (I'm 45 now)
in the beginning, it was......catch anything I could, keep it for a short time to observe, then release.

Every now and then my dad and I would catch a gravid rat snake, let her lay, let her go and then hatch and release the babies.

That started my love of wanting to breed and lead me to be where I am in the hobby. It wasn't that I started out thinking...."I'm going to be a snake breeder" but, the love of the hobby itself sure did lead me there.

Anyway, thanks agin for the discussion. If I get anymore info about this....I'll share and if anybody has any other thoughts about it.....please tell.

Cheers,
D

[Aaron_S]

Derek, question then, what do you plan to do with the results? What is the market study for? Simply for your own information to have on hand?

As for your survey, I have answered already but for the sake of it, for me, I'd pay pretty much any amount for a snake that I felt was my "unicorn" in the hobby. Like you, I started out just keeping for the love it. Never went out looking to be a breeder at the start (I was 12 with my first snake).

[Minkness]

Yeah, but if that 'unicorn' is 10k and you knly have 3k to spend....you won't be getting it. ;)

If Ihad unlimited funds to spend as I wished, I probably wouldn't care as much about price. But sadly, that fantasy doesn't exist yet lol

[MDT]

it is all about unicorn priorities. if you want a 10k snake and have 3k, then you save 7k..if that means $10/month or $100/month until your goal is reached, then so be it. cut out starbucks, cut out video games, movies, whatever. we all have our "discretionary" spending, and there is nothing wrong with that. it just depends whether something else comes along to rearrange what you spend that on.

i also know that at 49 and well entrenched in my career, i have a lot more discretionary income to goof off with than i did when i was 20 or 30. that just happens with time.

[Minkness]

I agree, but there's a difference between 'affordable now' and 'affordable later'. As stated before, anyone can save up eventually.

[Aaron_S]

Yeah, but if that 'unicorn' is 10k and you knly have 3k to spend....you won't be getting it. ;)

If Ihad unlimited funds to spend as I wished, I probably wouldn't care as much about price. But sadly, that fantasy doesn't exist yet lol

I never set my time frame on obtaining the "unicorn" ;)

[chairman]

Well, there's some difference between unicorns and unicorns that you intend to sell the offspring of. A $10k pet is a huge chunk of change but a $10k breeder is going to at least partially reimburse you. But I think that's in line with something that has already been mentioned, expensive morphs sell first to breeders and then make it to hobbyists when the price drops.

For a market research perspective, I expect that high-end uncommon animals will have a significantly smaller customer pool and spend more time on the market than high-end common animals.

[Derek Roddy]

Derek, question then, what do you plan to do with the results? What is the market study for? Simply for your own information to have on hand?

As for your survey, I have answered already but for the sake of it, for me, I'd pay pretty much any amount for a snake that I felt was my "unicorn" in the hobby. Like you, I started out just keeping for the love it. Never went out looking to be a breeder at the start (I was 12 with my first snake).

Yeah, just for my own use. Trying to trim time on where to post, etc about the animals for sale.

And of course, to get a perspective on the market in general.

It's a great discussion because we all do this for our very own personal reasons.

I got involved with the BHP's because I knew I had the ability to "get it right" with the breeding so, I then took it to "creating art".

That's how I look at it....just creating living art.

I picked the BHPs because not a lot of people are (or have been) truly successful with them. And there has never been any line, selective breeding over 1 generation done in the US.
I knew from a market stand point (and if I wanted these animals to eventually pay for themselves. haha) That I could do what a lot of others couldn't because, I understand myself first.....then the animal.

I wanted a focus species that was
difficult to breed,
not a lot of people had,
retained their value (which is tough in the market)
and had very little morphs to pollute the natural form so it was a long lasting investment.

But, that's just me.....plenty of other reasons why we buy snakes.....I just wanted to pick a few forums for those reasons.

Thanks everyone.

D

[Derek Roddy]

I agree, but there's a difference between 'affordable now' and 'affordable later'. As stated before, anyone can save up eventually.

I was lucky when I purchased my first pair of BHPs.

They were from a local gentleman who gave me a payment plan. He allowed me to pay him off over the time it took him to get them started feeding (which can be several months)

If it wasn't for that, I most likely would have had to wait a couple more years to everything together at once.

That's the biggest reason I offer payment plans myself.

D

[Derek Roddy]

For a market research perspective, I expect that high-end uncommon animals will have a significantly smaller customer pool and spend more time on the market than high-end common animals.

That's true to a certain degree.
There are so many variables to this whole discussion but, the person selling the animals and, the quality of the animals themselves mean a lot in the market.
If both those things line up...usually animals move quickly, regardless the species.

But then you also have to take into account your market. If you have no sense of the market and over produce...you either sit on animals or lower price to move them if you need to.

In my case I usually under produce so, it keeps the value of my "lines" up and customer list long.

I understand my market because I get out here and do threads and searches like this every year to see where keepers are at in their mindset. Keeps the market on my animals valid, simply by doing a little research.

And again, this thought process doesn't work for everyone. And that's All good.

D

[Nick V]

I know this is an old thread, but I hardly go on here anymore and very much feel the need to chime in here. I currently have a black headed python and didn't plan on getting one for quite some time. The person I got her from was selling a high quality animal for half the price of what a normal bhp would go for. I do have to agree that a bhp is a beautiful animal but someone cannot ask $2,000 for a standard bhp when a high quality one is available for the same price, which is already rather high. So, those that produce the high quality ones sell them very quickly (I take it) and what's leftover are less attractive animals here and there that pop on kingsnake or fauna and I think that it deters a lot of people who would otherwise consider buying a more attractive animal at that price. I plan on (and have been saving up) for another bhp but the impulse buy of a cheaper, yet still expensive, high quality one set me back down to saving up for a second one. I think for most people, and definitely for me, saving up for one will take a decent amount of time, so establishing a group to breed will take many years and dollars to accomplish. I also feel like there are a lot of rogue keepers, like me, who have just one or two animals that haven't actually started producing any yet. Then there are people who look at snakes as money makers, so if you can't force feed a bhp to adult size in two years (like you could a ball python) then the investment isn't worth it to those people. Then, those who look past how long it takes to get them to breeding size have a false interpretation that bhp's are difficult animals because of their sensitivity of fatty foods. In all, I think it is a combination of those things that make bhp's out of reach and out of mind to those contemplating acquiring this beautiful species. I think bhp's are truly incredible animals and are hands down one of my favorite snakes, but it will be a gradual process of them gaining popularity with what the majority of keepers/breeders look for in an animal. Eventually, rogue keepers will have their collections grow and I think years down the road that will drive down the price for them and offer more morphs and make the few morphs that are already out there more affordable to morph fans.

[sirtalis]

These are my #1 wanted snake, but price is the big factor for me, mainly because I'm 16 and I'd rather not spend a good chunk of my summer savings :p