Breeding and the big picture?

[oatmeal]

Very vague title, I know!

I'll preface this by saying that:
A) I bought my first and only snake from a breeder, and
B) I have always wanted to breed reptiles, so I think I have some idea of what would inspire someone to pursue this

Now, what I'm wondering is this: Considering that many reptiles can have relatively long lives in captivity when kept in proper conditions, how do you breeders consolidate this with knowing that some of your snakes will (probably) end up on craigslist, or neglected in the long term? I'm specifically thinking of the more popular snakes, such as ball pythons. I see so many up for sale in my area, and it's so depressing.

All the breeders in my area (that I know of) are excellent people, and very discerning about who their snakes go home to (I can honestly say it was a wonderful experience buying from a breeder rather than accepting a rescue), but it's still something that I struggle with. I'd love to hear directly from breeders to get your perspective. I want to understand :) Maybe you can help!

I'm new to snakes, and it's strange to me that it seems so much of the hobby is about morphs. I currently have 3 beardies, 5 cresties, 1 green basilisk, 2 c. orientalis, and 1 (exciting and new) hognose :D I've noticed the same thing with the cresties; that there is a lot of talk about morphs and such, but not so much with the beardies. I've joined a lot of bearded dragon and basilisk/water dragon groups, and it's very different than it is here!

Anyone have any insight into why this is? I feel like it might have something to do with the level of engagement with each animal.. my beardies and the basilisk are very interested in everything that's going on, and the cresties (during the day) and hognose are much less so comparatively.

All my animals (besides the hoggie) are 'pre-loved' in some way. My new beardie rescue (who may be entering a palliative phase soon) is about 9 years old, and my oldest beardie will be 14 shortly. I just keep trying to imgine when this rescue was hatched. Did the breeder imagine that his life would be so horrible? Was it a responsible breeder, or a mill? Accidental clutch? I don't know! I'll be frank: This rescue is what has prompted this post. I've had such a hard time with him (morally) that I'm struggling with the ethos surrounding the hobby.

If anyone wants to share their perspective, I'd love to hear it :) Thanks in advance! Apologies for the long and rambling post! Looking forward to some perspective!

Also, if I've posted in the absolute wrong forum, please feel free to delete or move if necessary :)

[Aaron_S]

First, you're fine where you posted. It could fit into a few different sections this being one of them so you're good.

Second, I breed ball pythons currently and moving into other species as well as they mature into adulthood and are ready to breed.

Third, I've also done rescuing waay back in the day when morphs weren't as prevelant as they are now. I know both sides of the hobby and how they go.

You've asked some great questions here and I hope to give some insight that you've been looking for.

On the breeding side of things we can start at the "morph craze". I think a lot of it has to do with price tags but there's other things as well. When there were less species with morphs and the price tags weren't commonly in the 5 digit price range people seemed to focus less on them. They simply weren't in people's eyes as often. Make no mistake though, they were still highly popular. Bob Clark built his "empire" upon the back of albinos in 3 different species. (Burms, balls and retics).

Normals were popular and are still popular from what I've seen. Anyone just needs to find the right groups and look in the right places.

As for the bearded dragon vs. crestie thing I believe that it's because beardies never really had too many "morphs". Most of what they called morphs were colour phases and just "line bred" really nice animals. They didn't inherit as simple as ball pythons do.

Now onto the more serious question of ethics and morals.

I came to the conclusion a long time ago to control what you can control and not to worry too much about what you can't. What I mean by this is that no one I've ever sold a snake to has given the impression they were buying this animal so they can put it on craigslist, kijiji or "flip" it. Or that they said "I'm going to neglect this thing soo much you just watch!"

No, that would be crazy. What ends up happening is people's lives change. For whatever reason reptiles are one of the first things to go when that happens. It's sad but true.

Thing is I can't predict that. I can't predict someone losing a job, becoming sick or injured and unable to care for their pets. I can't predict divorce, relationships falling apart of a myriad of other things that change people's lives. I also can't control what decision they make after this change happens and what they do with the reptiles.

Now what I CAN control is if I know about any neglect or something bad I can do my best to contact local authorities (depending where they are), I can ensure I don't sell to them or any other breeder I know to sell to them again.

I can also control how well my animals are kept. They come first. I love my animals, I have a deep passion for them. I give them a great life with proper care because again, I can control that.

[Minkness]

This is a great, insightful question!!!

I breed geckos for now (leopard and crested) and may one day breed snakes. With that said, I wasn't sure I could let my babies gobto just anyone. However, while I am extremely small scall hobby breeder, I know I can't keep them all. As of now I have onlybkept 1 hold backnleo and 3 jold back cresties, one of which I will keep indefinitely and the other 2 I'm just letting them grow out a bit to raose4thwor value in the market later.

Bow, the beat way to wnsure a GREAT home is to not undervalue your animals. I sell mine for the same price as pet stores, if not higher. What this doesis weed out the people who saw something in the pet store, but want to find it cheaper because THEY don't really value the animal. (I have made an exception for someone who texted with me a long while, asking great care queations, and really earned her crestie baby for cheaper because she was also a highschool kid and even brought the little kritter keeper set up with her to show it to me when we met. She still gives me little updates too!).

Being able to put a value on the babies is vital. Not too much and not too low. Also, being able/willing to ship the animal is another way to ensure a better home. Not that it is a guarantee by any means. But, it raises the value of the animal because they are paying for the animal AND the shipping, which is never cheap and can sometimes cost more than the animal it's self.

There is always a risk your babies may not end up in a great home, regardless of price. I rescued 5 hoggies and a BP all from ONE woman who had fallen on hard times and waited too long to rehome her animals. The sad thing is, she must have had 20 or more other reptiles in her house....I couls only take in those 5 though. The 5 I rescued were NOT cheap animals either. An extreme red ($300), an anaconda ($500) an albino female (200-300$) a noemal female at breeding weight (200$) and an ivory female BP ($300). The rescue of these high end animals cost me a long drive and $140....but that price was decided on before I got tobher house, and was supposed to bebfor JUST the BP....the hognoses were all free. I could tell she cared about them. She even fave me 2 BAGS of frozen feeders. But the animals were in terrjble condi. Mites, underweight, dehydrated and sick. One even worried my vet that he wouldn't make it because his pneumonia was so bad!

I have no idea where she actually got these animals or how long she actually had them for them to be in such bad shape...and it made me worry about my babies as well.

I think that as a ratio goes though, there are more good keepers than bad.

I also trade any babies I can't sell by a certain time to a local exotics store to help support my reptile needs....like decore, caging, and food for them. They have the same value in the animals as I do though. People don't go to that store expecting to pay $30 bucks for crested gecko like at petsmart or petco. So really only enthusiasts and responsible people (for the most part) buy their animals.

It's hard, but if you can't accept it, and can't keep ALL the babies, then don't breed.

[prairiepanda]

Oatmeal, you've raised some very important questions here. It's great to see new prospective breeders thinking about these things and seriously considering the long-term welfare of the animals they will one day produce.

Aaron hit the mark with the issue of beardies vs cresties and morphs. Beardie "morphs" aren't traits controlled by a few genes that can be mixed and matched and played with the way crestie morphs can; they are attributes enhanced through line-breeding. You can't breed a citrus beardie with a normal and get het-citrus babies with extra breeding value. Crestie morphs consist of a mix of line-bred traits and well-defined genes. This allows new breeders to get into producing high-end animals relatively quickly(through the well-defined genes) while also giving more experienced breeders the power to produce exclusives through line-breeding. Another difference is that crestie morphs are often extremely different from each other, making morphs more unique and desirable, whereas beardie morphs tend to simply be different shades on a spectrum. Some of course are more distinguishable and eye-popping, but those tend to be too rare for common keepers to think about.

I think individuality is one of the biggest appeals when it comes to morphs. Normal ball pythons are beautiful animals, but they all look the same. Rather than getting a ball that looks just like the hundreds you see in pet shops and the millions you see on instagram, you have the choice of getting one that looks special. This tends to happen for a lot of animals: that furniture-destroying cat in the shelter that has an adorable heart-shaped marking will probably be adopted before the plain brown love machine. Appearance is not the best way to select an animal, but unfortunately it is the basis of first impressions.

As for keeping your animals off Craigslist...well, that's impossible. As others have said, you can't control what might happen in a person's life after they acquire your animals. But you shouldn't let it get to you, either, because it isn't your fault. You need to focus on the factors you can influence; that is, ensuring proper care in your own home and being selective about who can buy your animals in the first place.

When I bred gerbils, I didn't want money for the babies. I gave them away for free. But I made it hard for anyone to get them. Anyone who was interested had to pass a knowledge test first; if they got less than 100%, then I sent them a care sheet of my own making and let them try a second test a week later. If they got less than 100% on the second test, they wouldn't get a gerbil. Those who passed the first or second test then had to send me photos of the environment the animals would be kept in and provide a description of the care routine they would follow as well as a monthly budget for supplies. Everyone who passed the knowledge tests also passed this stage, but if I saw any problems I would have insisted that changes be made. When they came to pick their gerbil(s), they had to bring the enclosure with them for me to inspect. I requested that those with small children also bring their children along. Before the gerbils left my home, I had everyone show me how they would handle them and gave advice if necessary. After that, I got photo updates after two weeks and again after four weeks from everyone, and then they were on their own. I can't stalk them forever to make sure they're taking care of my babies, but at least I can know that they are fully aware of everything involved and prepared to provide what is needed, even if their ability to do so or their interest diminishes later on.

When I buy animals from breeders, I don't normally see this level of concern. I always send them an update after two weeks to let them know their animals are doing well in my care, but quite often these updates get ignored completely. I do feel that these breeders take great care of their animals and do care about their well-being, but it does bother me that they don't seem to care who buys their animals or what happens afterwards. I mean, my communications with them paint me as a polite person who cares about animals, but I have never been prompted to prove my knowledge or ability to care for the animals. Seems like just being a nice and intelligent person is enough. I understand that some of these breeders deal with a large volume of sales regularly and it can be difficult to deal with transactions on a case-by-case basis as thoroughly as I'd like, but I find the lack of concern to be very strange, especially when dealing with people who are very attached to every one of their animals.

[Sylphie]

Well I agree with all that was said above. I plan on breeding in next years too, but I choosed species that are less popular and have only two/three morphs/localities. I want to produce something different than most of the market. Of course I know that there is possibility that I won't sell all babies as fast as more popular species, but I'm ready to keep them as long as it will be needed. As for prices... in my country home breeders are having "normal" market prices, similiar to the rest of the world. Pet stores on the other hand are having them soo high that it's funny sometimes.
And like Aaron said you can't control everything, just do what you think is best for you and your babies :)

[Arachnaeoccult]

I appreciate the efforts of breeders but could never do it myself for fear of where my poor babies could be going (in the hands of a 9 year old...)

[Minkness]

Some 9 year olds are actually pretty responsible. I have aold most of my baby geckos to teens and preteens. One still gives me updates ever so often. =)

[Arachnaeoccult]

Some 9 year olds are actually pretty responsible. I have aold most of my baby geckos to teens and preteens. One still gives me updates ever so often. =)


I suppose I can relate since I owned a Rosehair from age 8 to about 14. and gave her away to a pet guy who had many tattoos of spiders. She's probably still alive.


She was in a dangerous situation for the ten years I had her though with sand substrate, she fell off the top more times than I know. I didn't realize my error until much later. (they hate sand substrate and try to climb the screen if thats their bedding :[)