Black rat snake feeding experience

[RAD House]

I just wanted to recount an experience I had with my luecistic black rat snake, Luna, and maybe get some feed back. Two weeks ago my little girl refused to eat for the first time since I got her three months ago. After the first feed attempt I left her completely alone except to put a mouse in her enclosure or check temps.

Although I messed with the temps a bit they were never too far off at the ground level, the lowest being around 82 and the high being 87 degrees Fahrenheit. I added a humid hide to her enclosure, which she showed no interest in. I even moved her out of my office as I spend quite a bit of time in there and was worried I was stressing her. I tried braining, feeding live, and even other foods like fish. All the efforts were met with non interest.

Besides being a bit skinny for not eating for 20 days she appears to be healthy. Scales look healthy, she is incredibly active, and is passing waste. Her enclosure has a multitude of hides, on both the warm and cool sides. She has plenty of things to climb on and explore.

The only thing I could think of was that here tub may be too short for a species that some consider semi arboreal. Her tub is 24x15x7 inches and she is only about a foot long so there should be plenty of floor space. I have another enclosure that was meant for her when she grew out of her tub, which is 52x16x20 inches. I toyed around moving her into this enclosure from the beginning but as it was so big I thought it might add to her stress.

She is still very young and small so I was quite stressed about her not eating for this long. After this weeks refusal I decided to throw a hail mary and move her into the larger enclosure. After a day of exploring she ate.

There are several factors as to why she may have changed her "attitude". First is that because it is a wood enclosure with a glass front, it may have added a bit more security on the three opaque sides. Second because it is wood which is a good insulator maybe the temps are more stable. I am inclined to believe a third option which is that this species needs to climb and have perches to feel at home. She has done nothing but climb around in the branches since I put her in the enclosure, including sleeping up there.

I just don't see the others being good explanations because if security was an issue she would hide instead of being out and a about a majority of the time. The temp issue I would think would take more than a day to really effect her as temps in the wild are much more variable.

I am just glad she finally ate. What do you all think about this, especially if you have experience with this species? I find it strange that none of the care guides mentioned have a taller tank for this species. In fact most group them with non arboreal rat snakes like bairds and trans-pecos.

[Bandit]

Honestly, it was probably just coincidence. Going two weeks without eating really isn't anything unheard of for a snake, especially since it is getting later in the year. That being said, if the new enclosure is warmer, she will want to eat more often throughout the winter. But considering the fact that she has never given you problems with feeding, I wouldn't be alarmed about her going off feed (although I'm not sure 20 days is even considered off feed). Some snakes are more prone to going off feed during the winter than others.

It sounds like her old enclosure was fine and you had everything under control. She probably is enjoying the space. Rat snakes are pretty active and curious, so she'll definitely make use of all of the space (as you have seen). I have never really looked into care sheets for Black Rats, but I would assume that they should be given branches to climb on as they will climb in the wild. Maybe they just aren't in the care sheets because they don't need them, but I would still recommend it.

[Albert Clark]

I agree with Bandit on both of those fronts. 20 days not really being a great amount of time and late in the year also is a possibility. I actually was going to say that she probably just wasn't hungry. I do know Justin Kobylka has attested to the off feeding in ball pythons being attributed to enclosure positioning and location. Don't know if that is similar for rat snakes. Non feeders always stress the owner more than the snake lol. However I feel your concern bc the animal is still young and needs to feed. Lol.

[Albert Clark]

Glad you got her back on feed! Good luck.

[RAD House]

You are probably right about it not being that long. Being as she is so young, little thicker than a sharpie marker, and metabolism is crazy fast I was a worried about her. I hear you Albert and I would probably be less worried about a ball python as they are fatties comparatively.

I am not just talking about having a branch to climb on, but having more vertical space than similar rat snakes. I guess what I am getting at is when does a snake become a arboreal snake that necessitates an arboreal setup. Truthfully I don't know if a black rat snake would be happy with the lack of floor space that most full arboreal set ups have either. All I do know is that based on the limited experience I have black rats need larger enclosures than is recommended by most guides.

[Bandit]

I wouldn't give them a full arboreal set up. If you're going to do one extreme or the other (strictly arboreal or strictly terrestrial), than do a terrestrial tank. However for Black Rats I would recommend a good compromise. I'd venture to say that they need adequate floor space, but they don't need vertical space...but I believe it is beneficial and they do enjoy it.

Give her the recommended floor space (or more if you can and want to). Right now she will only climb so much since she is small. When she gets older I'd personally give her 3-4' of vertical space with some good limbs to climb on. But then again I've always been one to give more space than "the minimum."

[RAD House]

A little update on this girl. Ever since this first experience she has become a pretty unreliable eater. As some of you may remember I took a two week vacation a few months back and prior to me leaving she had not eaten for a month and only sparingly for a month before that. Looking at her before I left she looked skinny to the point that I was worried if she would make it during my away time. So I finally broke down and force fed her pinky parts twice before I left. I also dusted the parts with nutribac just to help out. Fortunately when I got back she was still kicking, but I did notice some off colored brown scales on her belly and around her mouth, she is a white snake so they stuck out like a sore thumb. I started to soak her is a dilute iodine solution, which seems to have helped as they have all gone away. Something odd since I got back from the trip is that I can get her to feed but only by getting her in defensive strike mode and keeping at her until after many strikes she gingerly latches on. It is not hard to get her to strike as she has always had a bit of an attitude. After she latches on if she is disturbed at all before the mouse is down the hatch she will spit it out. This is just some strange behavior and I was wondering if any one has had a similar situation.

[Andy_G]

How large/old is she and how large is the enclosure?

[RAD House]

She is currently under weight at 25g and about 18 inches long. Her enclosure is quite big around 48"x18"x16" I think, but there is copious amounts of cover. I had her in a small enclosure when this all started and could not get her eat at all, since I moved her over she eats at least sporadically. She is an active snake and loves the room she has now.

[Bandit]

Have you tried feeding her in a separate tank? If you haven't already, I would try putting her in a small Tupperware container with the mouse in the dark and leave her for a little while.

[RAD House]

Tried Tupperware out of her enclosure overnight and Tupperware inside her enclosure overnight. Her only interest seems to be in getting out of the Tupperware. I have tried scenting, feeding live, smaller mice. The only thing that seems to work is the weird dance I described earlier. I have not tried feeding or scenting with anoles but if I get her to eat then I will avoid this.

[Andy_G]

Seperate feeding enclosures are often more stressful for the snake and increases the chances of a regurge on the "return flight" if they do in fact eat...but it was worth a shot to try! Have you tried mice as well as rats or rat scented? I know you mentioned you tried scenting but I didn't want to assume...

[Bandit]

Yeah I know separate enclosures can be stressful, but if nothing else was working it would be worth a shot. But I guess she wasn't having any of that.

[RAD House]

Sorry I meant scenting f/t with live mice. I certainly could try scenting mice with rats, but I am pretty sure she is still too small to take any shots at even a pinky rat.

[Andy_G]

It's worth a shot. I'd also try scenting with chicken, chicken broth, as well as tuna. They're long shots, but they have worked in this species as well as others before. I would try them in that order as well, beginning with rat scent, and as I am sure you already know, be sure not to try too often as it will create a negative outcome rather than a positive one. I hope you get the little one eating regularly soon, as it's always much more of a concern when they're underweight. I'm not convinced that the larger enclosure is doing any good, but it's your snake and you seem to have a great head on your shoulders, plus you mentioned that you tried a smaller enclosure already so I won't emphasize on that...but don't completely rule it out.

[RAD House]

That is useful information Andy, thanks for the advice. I was out of ideas so this is really helpful.

[Andy_G]

Something else that I just noticed after re-reading this thread that you asked about and nobody has supplied you with an answer yet...

In regards to your snake spitting out the prey item while feeding if disturbed, it is completely normal and this is observed in most species, mostly with nervous/stressed/young individuals. They get startled and want to dash, which is much easier to do when your mouth isn't full!

I had a male black pine snake that would keep his rat constricted while trying to eat my face as I walk by his cage after feeding him while I was feeding/cleaning the others...but he would always finish what he started after I was gone and was otherwise extremely calm.

[RAD House]

Yeah that makes sense. I am thinking about some sort of cover I could place over the glass front during feeding.

[RAD House]

I have thought about the cage size issue quite a bit, and she spends most of her time sitting in the branches all but out in the open so I don't think security is an issue. I have very infrequently been known to wrong though, at least in other people's minds.

[mysticmoon]

Sounds like you're doing everything right. He's probably just being stubborn.

But just to be sure... what kind of bedding are you using? Pine and cedar are poisonous to snakes, and sand can cause impaction. You probably already know this, but it was the only thing I could think of.

Hang in there, he will eat when he gets hungry enough.

[Albert Clark]

Just out of curiosity is she cbb or wc? Is there some other appropriate sized prey that you could try? Or alternatively, live rodent prey just to get her started? The other prey I was thinking of was fowl. That would mean getting f/t day old chicks then having to do a dissection. I don't know if that is something you would consider. One other thing is that having her in a shallow tub with water that only covers the ventral scales will help with dehydration. The cloaca is a physiological sponge that can absorb generous amounts of fluid. Unless you can say that you do observe her drinking water. Just a couple of thoughts.

[RAD House]

Sounds like you're doing everything right. He's probably just being stubborn.

But just to be sure... what kind of bedding are you using? Pine and cedar are poisonous to snakes, and sand can cause impaction. You probably already know this, but it was the only thing I could think of.

Hang in there, he will eat when he gets hungry enough.

She is and has always has been on Aspen bedding. Impaction does not seem to be an issue as when she does eat she seems to poop just fine.

Just out of curiosity is she cbb or wc? Is there some other appropriate sized prey that you could try? Or alternatively, live rodent prey just to get her started? The other prey I was thinking of was fowl. That would mean getting f/t day old chicks then having to do a dissection. I don't know if that is something you would consider. One other thing is that having her in a shallow tub with water that only covers the ventral scales will help with dehydration. The cloaca is a physiological sponge that can absorb generous amounts of fluid. Unless you can say that you do observe her drinking water. Just a couple of thoughts.

She is CBB as far as I know. I am reluctant to switch her to other prey, as I can get her to eat. If for whatever reason she does go off feed again for an extended amount of time than maybe alternative prey items are in order. She has gotten several baths in the past few months, between the iodine treatment and the a little stuck shed on the tip of her tail. I have seen her drink but very infrequently. I also do not see any of the signs of dehydration.

Just to clear up something I clearly did not in my original post is that although a little under weight, I have managed to get her back to a healthy weight with our little two step.