understanding genetics and morphs

[Bellydragger94]

Hi guys so I currently have a jungle jag female and an irian jaya female. Now to make a jungle jag you have to breed a coastal jaquar carpet to a jungle. Now heres my question? What is a coastal jaguar? I know of a regular coastal carpet but what is a coastal jaquar just a regular coastal? And if you could expalin the percentages when you breed them together it would help because you cant find eny help online on websites and can you mix irian jaya to a jungle jag this is all stuff I cant find on line thanks.

[pinefamily]

Jags are when 2 recognized subspecies are crossed. Calling it a coastal jag, or a jungle jag, when you cross a coastal with a jungle, is a bit like tomAto, or tomAHto really.
It's interesting that coastals and diamonds breed together in the wild, with no side issues like jags.

[Bellydragger94]

But what's confusing me is. If I breed an IJ to a JJ what will the out come be?
Irian jaya jags. Jungle jags and coastal jags. Normals? So that's 1/4. 1/4. 1/4.1/4
Lol my brain hurts its like knowing but not knowing.

[pinefamily]

If you breed an IJ to a jungle, with nothing else in the mix, it's either an IJ jag, or a jungle jag. Unless of course there is proof out there that the IJ and and our jungles are the same subspecies. Really it doesn't matter, does it? As long as you, and any potential buyer of offspring, know what they are.

[Aaron_S]

Jags are when 2 recognized subspecies are crossed. Calling it a coastal jag, or a jungle jag, when you cross a coastal with a jungle, is a bit like tomAto, or tomAHto really.
It's interesting that coastals and diamonds breed together in the wild, with no side issues like jags.

I wish I had a buzzer that was annoying and obnoxious so I can press it when people are dead wrong.

Anyway, jaguar is NOT when "two recognized subspecies are crossed." That is false data.

Jaguar is a morph that was found in the coastal carpet python lineage. People have crossed it to other subspecies of carpet python to enhance the looks in various ways.

No such thing as "side issue like jag". That makes zero sense when it comes to talking about genetics.

But what's confusing me is. If I breed an IJ to a JJ what will the out come be?
Irian jaya jags. Jungle jags and coastal jags. Normals? So that's 1/4. 1/4. 1/4.1/4
Lol my brain hurts its like knowing but not knowing.

So you need to have an idea of how mutations work in the first place to figure this stuff out. You won't get anything you just described. It's not like you can breed a jungle jaguar to a coastal and pop out a "normal" or an uncrossed jungle or coastal.

What happens here is first we look at the mutation involved. Jaguar. How is it inherited or passed on to the next generation? It's incomplete dominant so that means on AVERAGE 50% of the babies will be of the jaguar mutation.

Now on to the mixing of the subspecies.

A "Jungle jag" if it's pure as that (highly doubt it) then it's a 50/50 split between jungle/coastal blood.

So you've got a 50/50 split breeding with an Irian Jaya (100%)

That means all the babies will be
50%/25%/25% Irian Jaya, Jungle, Coastal

With half of them being simply mutts and the other half jaguar versions. (roughly. It's genetics. nothing is guaranteed to be exact)

[pinefamily]

When people here in Oz talk about jags, it's crossbreeding, not colour morphs.
And when I referred to side issues, I meant the high incidence of neurological issues that jags have; as far as I am aware this does not happen with the naturally occurring coastal/diamond intergrades.

[Aaron_S]

When people here in Oz talk about jags, it's crossbreeding, not colour morphs.
And when I referred to side issues, I meant the high incidence of neurological issues that jags have; as far as I am aware this does not happen with the naturally occurring coastal/diamond intergrades.

Interesting. I'm not sure why that slang changed with continents but it's wrong and confusing since there's a mutation called Jaguar. Is it even in Australia? I know it originated in Europe.

Well many intergrades happen and there's no issues. I don't see the connection to jaguar though. Reason being, if you use the definition of jag as you described then you're saying all the crosses have issues. In my experience that isn't the case.

However, if you use the jag definition of morph then sure your comment makes sense since jaguars apparently have some neuro issues that come along with the mutation.

Also, the issues have no real ground in the intergrading of subspecies. It has to do again with understanding genetics and what causes the visual mutations. It means somewhere in the genetic code it's "broken" and sometimes other things break that aren't pattern/colour. How we end up with the defects like neurological issues.

[chairman]

I have an 87.5% Irian Jaya Jaguar. The other 12.5% is Coastal. I also have a Jag Sibling with the same % mix. My understanding is that their offspring will come out as 87.5% IJ pythons of which approximately 50% would be Jags. I breed the male to a 100% IJ python and I'd get 93.75% IJ pythons with the 50/50 distribution of the morph.

[Bellydragger94]

I'll get the idea somewhat. I still think there is a lot of work to be done with this morph out come and what you will get with breeding but it seems like it hasent been looked into as hard as it should have been just my opinion. Thanks for the answers guys!

[reptiledude987]

Some of the blends can be difficult to predict what the offspring will be exactly. However I do know for certain is that if you breed a jag to a jag the babies will not survive at all.

[Aaron_S]

Some of the blends can be difficult to predict what the offspring will be exactly. However I do know for certain is that if you breed a jag to a jag the babies will not survive at all.

Yes and no.

The Jaguar gene is an incomplete dominant gene. So it means that on average when one parent carries it and the other doesn't that 50% of the babies will come out with it. The other will be normal.

When two incomplete dominant genes are bred together they only overlap 25% of the time. Making what we know as a "super form". So yes the Jaguar x Jaguar clutch will have babies that won't survive at all. 25% is average, the rest will without issue. Or shouldn't without issue.

As for the blends being difficult to predict, it isn't at all. It's numbers. Numbers don't lie so if someone KNOWS exactly what percentage of their snakes are what locale then it's easy to decipher what the babies will be. (what they look like is a different story)

[reptiledude987]

Thats interesting. I had always heard jag+jag =death.

[Aaron_S]

Thats interesting. I had always heard jag+jag =death.

That's if there's two copies of the gene in the same snake. Simply breeding them together won't kill all the snakes (unless all of them carried the gene going against all odds of happening.)

[Bellydragger94]

I was told jag to jag gives you the super morph but you can lose all the eggs either at laying or incubation but there is a chance to get the super morph its very slime though correct me if I'm wrong but is it not a leucistic carpet?

[MDT]

it would be leucistic. however, that is a lethal gene combo. to date (AFAIK) , none have survived past a few hours post hatch. most died in egg, you are correct.

[Bellydragger94]

I think a leucistic carpet would be awesome to try for but not at the cost of loosing an entire clutch/and or a season so just one offspring makes it to adult hood if it has ever happened. I can't find any pictures of adult leucistic carpets. The other crosses are just as gourgious. But to find a animal that's maybe 6 to 7 feet all white blue eyes would be my holy grail. Same as a albino yellow anaconda.

[Bellydragger94]

Have to stick with BELs balls for now lol

[MDT]

You won't lose the entire clutch. Not saying it's any more or less ethical to breed. Some do and know that there will be loss. Build a Punnet Square and do your computation to see the %'s of what will be leucistic. That is your estimated loss.