New baby hognose not eating...tips?

[lupegirl8]

I've had a baby western hognose for about a week and a half or so and she has yet to eat for me. I've tried three times to feed her (every time with a frozen thawed pinkie that was heated up in hot water).

The first time I tried to feed her off tongs in a separate container. She reacted defensively towards the food, mock striking at it and hissing.

The second time I initially tried feeding her off tongs (the mouse started leaking some blood so I tried rubbing the blood on her nose, but she still wasn't interested). Then I left the food in the feeding tub with her for awhile, but she ignored it.

The third time (two days ago) I followed the advice of someone on faunaclassifieds and left the food in a toilet paper tube in her viv all day. She didn't touch it.

So far she hasn't lost a lot of weight. I weighed her the first day home and she was exactly 10.0 grams. Midway through the first week she was 9.20 grams and then two days ago somehow she had gone back up to 9.50 (my scale is supposed to be really accurate so I'm not sure what happened with the change in weight; maybe I read it wrong the first time?).

The guy at the pet store (who I talked to and definitely knows his stuff) said she was eating like a pig for them. He said she was taking two pinkies at a time sometimes, which is really impressive for such a tiny snake.

My current theories for why she isn't eating:
1) The cage is too bright/too big and it's making her nervous. She went from a smaller than 5 gallon tank at the pet store that was dimly lit to a 10 gallon tank with a heat lamp that is pretty bright. I'm getting an undertank heater today that should hopefully regulate the heat better and allow the tank to stay darker.
2) Maybe the pinkies are too big? The people at the store said she was on pinkies, but maybe they had smaller pinkies than the ones I've been able to buy. How do you know if a pinkie is too big for a snake?
3) Maybe they were overfeeding her at the pet store and she just isn't hungry enough to eat in a new environment yet. She definitely isn't big enough to NEED to eat two pinkies a week.

Anyone else have ideas on what to try? And how long should I wait before I get concerned? How much weight can she lose before it's dangerous? I have a lot of experience with turtles, but this is my first snake so I would love any tips from those of you with more hoggie experience than me. Thanks!

[Albert Clark]

Remember, you have changed the hatchlings environment and he is probably still acclimating. The thing with young snakes is that they do need to feed more often than older snakes. I would first increase the lighting to full spectrum and also switch to either newspaper or paper towels for now until he is eating on a regular basis. Imo, clutter up your tank a bit more to fill in the extra space or move down to a 5 gallon temporarily. Food wise , try scenting the pinks with fish ( tilapia, salmon, or croaker) from the fish market. If you are strong enough to "brain " the pinky then do that. :blink:

[Minkness]

If you have only had her for a week and a half, don't stress about her feeding. Leave her alone. Don't offer sonoften. Give her a chance to get hungry. If the guy at the store said she ate well before, don't scent things yet. This can cause her to go backwards if she was already on f/t. I suggest making her wait a FULL 7 days before attempting to feed her again. Don't handle her during this time either or that could start the waiting process over again. Putting it in a paper towel roll is a good idea. Another idea is to put her in a small, dark container with the pinkie and leave her alone for an hour. (Papper baggie, small box, ect).

Rule #1 don't freak out.
Rule #2 be patient.

[Eggplant]

I agree with Minkness; you shouldn't have to scent if she was feeding well on pinkies previously. I also had trouble getting my hognose to eat when I first got her. I ended up leaving her alone for about a week and then fed her in her tank. My hog will have nothing to do with food outside the tank so feeding in a separate container was never an option for me. Your snake is probably still acclimating so don't worry about it :). When I got my hog back from a caretaker just recently, it took her months to regain her normal feeding response/ appetite.

About size I heard that you should feed prey with diameter that is about or less than 1.5 times the diameter of the snake's body. Basically it shouldn't leave a large lump that is still noticeable a day after swallowing.

I use a ceramic heat emitter because the UTH was getting too hot even with a thermostat and it damaged my snake's belly scales :(
Here's what I use:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002AQCQO?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00

PS how are you thawing out your pinky?

[lupegirl8]

Thanks for the responses!

Eggplant: I turn the water in the sink up as hot as it will go (hot enough that it is uncomfortable to hold my hand in it for more than a second), fill a cup with water, and put the pinkie in it. Is that right? That's what my girlfriend and I do to warm up adult mice for her ball python (though those are furred prey items so maybe there's a better way to do it for pinkies?).

UPDATE: Before reading your posts about waiting longer I tried to feed again last night. Put a tiny pinkie in a small deli cup with her and put her in my closet with it for about an hour (so pitch black). No luck.

So now I'm planning to wait a week before offering food again like you suggested. I'm a little nervous though because it will be hard to check on her without handling/disturbing her. I won't be able to weigh her to check if she is losing weight and if she is burrowed or hiding I might not even be able to visually check that she's ok. I wouldn't be nearly as nervous if this were an adult snake, or even a little older, but she is so small that it makes me worry that she could go downhill fast.

How long is it safe for a baby hognose to go without food? I read that they have a pretty fast metabolism and should be fed at least once a week and maybe even twice. Are there any signs I should be looking out for that she has lost a dangerous amount of weight or isn't doing ok?

Again thanks!

[Humble308]

You're going to have to do the hardest thing in the world for owning a baby snake...at least for me haha : Leave her alone.

Plain and simple leave the snake alone. Don't feed her. Don't check on her except for temps and water. She needs to get acclimated with her new home, she needs to get used to all the smells and vibrations of your home. Anything can turn her off food, hell just a few days ago I tried to feed after a 6 day business trip but my dogs followed me up to the room and really stressed out the snake. But she ate like a boss the next day.

These snakes are built to go weeks without eating, in nature they may or may not eat that week. Being new to snake keeping myself the best piece I can offer anyone getting into snakes is you can't treat them like other pets. Don't take their fear of you as personal thing. They don't understand, they just want food and safety.

So here is what I'd do. Starting today leave her alone, checking water and temps only. Next Friday take her out and handle her a bit if you want. Saturday leave her be. And Sunday go ahead and try and feed. Most of the time my hoggie will smell food and come out of burrow, but every now and then I've had to uncover her gently and she'll eat.

If she rejects food, oh well, she WILL eat eventually. Don't worry too much. Sometimes when my girl is being picky I've scented with tuna, which she seems to love. People make a big deal about scenting but it's a can of tuna in the freezer....I take it out when I warm a pink and just teabag the little mouse in the tuna, you don't even need to unfreeze the can as it's pretty smelly even frozen.

I'm glad I'm past that first week, for me it was torture. All the best and keep us updated

[Minkness]

Baby or not, you may be doing too much. I know she seems small, but she's still a snake. A 'faster' metabolism doesn't mean she's going to waste away in a week (unless there is something seriously, medically wrong with her, which I highly doubt at this point). I have a female hoggie who has been on strike for over a month now. She hasn't lost weight (I weigh her once a week) and is still active (overlt so if you ask me) and easy to handle. What I like to do when trying not to bother a snake is put their water dish in a corner and use a small water putcher to fill the water as needed. Other than that, snakes don't really need to be bothered. I poop scoop once maybe twice a week if needed and that's it. Even as a baby she could easily go months without eating. Ideal...no....cause of death? Highly unlikely. If she gets to 2 months wothout taking a meal, THEN worry (and possibly take her to a vet). But a few weeks is nothing. Put her in the place you want the tank to be. Don't move her whole tank in and out of the dark. This will only stress her out further. Let her get used to her new tank and what's beyond it. New sights, smells, vibrations, ect will all make her more nervous and less likely to eat, so any time you move her, this again resets the time it takes for her to settle in.

One of the biggest mistakes of a new snake owner is OVER caring for their snake.

Also, hoggies hunt by scent more than heat. Mine take room temp feeders unlike the BP who takes his SUPER hot (darn near cooked!). I have also left a pinkie in with a tough feeder for up to two days. The...er...smell...seems to attract them and entice a feeding response. Some will disagree with me kn this practice, but, keep in mind that these snakes eat amphibians with salmonella as well as other dead animals and reptiles. It's natural for them.

If you have any questions or just need some reassurance, let me know. Always here to help. =)

(Seems Humble and I were typyong the same thing at the same time lol. Oops!)

[Eggplant]

As Mink and Humble said, just leave your hog alone for a week or so. Don't move the tank or open the lid. She was a good feeder before so the only thing that's preventing her from eating again is she's stressed out from being moved to a new environment. I think she will be fine not eating for a month; especially if she was eating like a pig before you got her. So don't worry :)

Also, idk if this is just my hognose, but mine will not accept food that is significantly hotter than the temperature of my hand. When I overheat her food she just starts hissing and puffing up. Sometimes she'll even smack it with her face cause she's so displeased :P. If you touch a live pinky, it's not vey hot; it's just a little warm like the temp of your hand. When I fed pinks I thawed them out in the open or in room temp/ luke warm water (if I was in a hurry). Then dropped them in some hot tap water for ~15 seconds to warm them up.

[lupegirl8]

Thanks for all the information and reassurances! I really appreciate it (it's helping keep me sane).

Thanks Eggplant for that note about your hognose not liking prey items that are too hot. I was getting the pinks pretty hot because that's how my girlfriend's ball python likes her mice (also I figured that would make it smell more). Next time I won't get it so hot.

[lupegirl8]

Not sure if this matters at all, but she is on my dresser in my closet with the door slid shut most of the day. I slide the door open for only a few hours every day and to attempt feeding/change her water.

Yesterday I peeked in on her and she was exploring her plant. Later she was vertical in the corner of the tank, as if trying to get out. She's been in that position a few times since I've gotten her. Is that anything to be worried about or is she just exploring the boundaries of her new home?

[Minkness]

Why is she in your closet?

As for the verticalness, that's just her being active. ALL of mine do that.

[sirtalis]

Also, dont feed in a separate enclosure.

[lupegirl8]

Why is she in your closet?

Mostly just because the top of my dresser was the best place to put her tank and my dresser happened to be in my closet. And partially because I'm not exactly supposed to have animals in my apartment. ;)

It's not really any different from her being in a small room. There's a light in there for her so it's not like she's sitting in the dark and I've run a power strip under the door so I can plug her UTH in. Also allows me to choose whether she is exposed to the activity of the room since I can slide the side of the closet open or closed.

I added the under tank heater today (just evenly lifted the tank up once to stick it on the bottom so I didn't overly disturb her). With the under tank heater the temperature gradient is much better. The cool side is in the mid to high 70s and the hot side is about 90-92. Right up against the glass is about 100-107 degrees in a small area, but there is a lot of aspen in between. Is that dangerous, or will she know not to lay against an area that is too hot?

I was thinking I could put a flat rock over the heat mat so she can't actually lie against the glass in the hottest spot. Would that help?

[Albert Clark]

Hognose snakes are diurnal, and temperate species that require 8 to 12 hours of daylight or full spectrum lighting. Try taking her out of the darkness and providing either natural or artificial lighting. It will affect their behavior to always be without adequate lighting. Double check those temp readings bc they are quite high. If you are using a heat mat (uth) then you need a rheostat or thermostat to adequately regulate the temps.

[lupegirl8]

@Albert Clark
I've had her under a light since I got her. At first it was a heat lamp before I had the under tank heater and now it's a regular fluorescent lightbulb that doesn't put out any heat. So, yes, she is in my closet, but she has not been in darkness (other than at nighttime obvious).

What temps are you referring to when you say they are quite high? Are you referring to the warm side temps, the cool side temps, or the temperature right up against the glass? If I turn down the heat then the only place in the tank that will be a good hot spot temperature (90-92) will be right up against the glass on the bottom of the tank. Right now it's the proper temperature on top of the aspen and under the first few layers of aspen. She will only be experiencing 100 degrees if she gets under ALL the aspen (and there's a pretty thick layer) and lays right on the bottom of the tank in one small area.

[Eggplant]

100-107F is too high. I think I mentioned this but I used a UTH when I first got my hognose and even with a thermostat and repticarpet thing, the UTH damaged my hog's belly scales (confirmed by vet :(). So I switched to overhead heating.

If you're going to stick with the UTH you definitely need to get that repticarpet thing or something that goes between the hot glass and aspen (that your hog cant get under) + a rheostat or thermostat.

To my knowledge, snakes can only tell if something is warmer or colder than them (or something like that; no snake expert by any means..). They will not feel it if something is burning them. I heard that is why a lot of snakes got severely burned by heated rocks and what not. So having a overheating UTH is definitely a issue, especially with animals that like to burrow like hognoses. I dont know if ~105 is enough to burn but from my experience with my snakie it is definitely enough to cause scale damage.

[lupegirl8]

UPDATE: So I tried feeding her on Tuesday. I know you guys said to wait longer than that, but she seemed hungry. She was out and about (not hiding), looking up, and flicking her tongue. She seemed to be looking for food (behaving similarly to my girlfriend's ball python when she is hungry). So I attempted to feed her a pinkie in the tank. She seemed interested and struck at it several times with her mouth closed. In between strikes she didn't run away despite lots of chances to do so. She just kept mock striking it. Thinking she was interested I left it inside her hollow log (a favorite hiding spot) and left it there overnight and for most of the following day. I was SURE she was going to eat it. But still nothing.

At what point do I need to consider taking her to the vet?

[lupegirl8]

Also she weighed exactly 10 grams when I got her and now weighs about 9.1 grams after two weeks of not eating.

[Humble308]

Try scenting with some canned tuna Mine will at times hiss and strike at unscented pinkies, scenting the next day and she eats like a pig. You've got to remember that mice are not their natural prey...or at least not their main diet. Sometimes it's how you present the feeder as well. I started to notice I was holding pinkies right over her head which of course freaked her out, but she takes a few sniffs and lunges for it when it's a bit in front of her.

Let her acclimate. Are you handling the animal to weigh it? If so then you're sort of taking steps backwards. 4 days isn't very long, some folks let their snakes acclimate for 2 weeks.

All the best, hopefully she eats for you soon.

[lupegirl8]

I've only weighed her about three times and this last time I only weighed her after she was already all worked up and stressed from a failed feeding attempt (puffed up, curled up, hissing at me and the pinkie). I figured if she was already freaked out I might as well check to make sure she wasn't losing too much weight (it only took a minute). Honestly she seems much more stressed by the appearance of a pinkie on tongs than she does by being handled.

She hasn't been quite as active these last few days. She didn't slither as vigorously to escape the dish I put her in on the scale and she spends most of her time hidden in the plant above her warm spot.

Honestly I wouldn't be so worried if she wasn't so little. I know adults can go up to a year without eating, but with babies there's less room for error in terms of how much weight they can safely lose.

I saw someone post on another forum that even neonate hoggies can go up to 5 months without eating. Is that true?

[Eggplant]

Seriously just don't bother her *at all* for a week and then try to feed her. Don't even take her out to weigh. If the guy at the shop didn't lie to you, her issue is not about eating pinkies.

She's probably just stressed out because of being in a new place/ getting handled or both. It's that or a husbandry/ pinky thawing/ heating issue, which, I mean, hognoses are pretty easy to care for and actually not very picky about food once they decide to eat so probably not that.

I know a couple of people who just got snakes and they keep telling me how their snake is not eating and stuff and they keep handling their snakes like everyday. I mean.. what can you expect? Snakes don't express emotions (or maybe even have them, idk) the same way humans do. If they were eating before but not anymore, obviously there's an issue. Either way, it's DEFINITELY NOT going to hurt your snake by not touching it for a little while.

If it still doesn't work out in like 2 more weeks (I'd say tops) just send her back to the shop and I'm pretty confident she'll be fine there after a bit. I don't think taking her to the vet will do your snake any good. It'll just stress her out more and unless she has an actual issue (like a RI) I don't think the vet can do much about her not eating (unless they try to force feed her -which in this case shouldn't be necessary or productive).

[Georgia]

My snake did that as soon as I got him. Put the snake in a small clear tub. Put in closet for 5-7 days without opening it. Cut a cereal box in half as a hide. It will eat then. Of course have some water in there. Don't worry about changing it.

[Georgia]

Or you can order some baby toads

[lupegirl8]

I feel like you guys are getting the impression that I'm handling/weighing my snake almost every day. I'm NOT. I've weighed her four times since I've had her. The last three times were only RIGHT after failed feeding attempts when she was already defensive, puffed up, and freaked out (ie already stressed). She actually calmed down when I took her out to weigh her (not saying she wasn't stressed, but she definitely wasn't as defensive as she was with the pinkie) and it took less than two minutes. The scale was next to her tank and it was snake out, on the scale, read scale, snake back in.

I promise I am not the person who knows nothing about reptiles and thinks their snake is a puppy dog that "wants" to be taken out to play. I've kept spotted turtles for years, worked at a reptile shelter, done field work on wild herps (including western hognose), and relocated hot snakes. I'm certainly not saying that means I know everything about snakes, this is my first experience with owning one, but I'm not coming from a place of total ignorance about snake behavior.

I talked to my vet and he said not to worry until she's lost 20% of her body weight (she's lost about 10% now). He said at that point tube feeding may be necessary. Hopefully it doesn't come to that (if it does I think I'll bring her in to the vet since I haven't tube fed before and would like to be shown in person how to do it the first time). I think I will take your advice and not have my roommate offer food while I'm gone.

Right now the snake is in a box with a brained, tuna-scented pinkie that is cut and half (and some warmed up tuna just in case she would rather eat fish for some reason). She's been in there overnight and I'm going to leave her in there all day today too. My fingers are crossed.

[Bandit]

I know I'm kind of late on this and a lot of good points have already been brought up. I agree with leaving her alone for a week or so...no handling, weighing, attempting to feed, etc. Some snakes just take longer to get settled than others. When she becomes comfortable and gets hungry, she'll eat. I wouldn't worry about it too much for now, just give it a little more time and then see how she reacts to food.

[Albert Clark]

@Albert Clark
I've had her under a light since I got her. At first it was a heat lamp before I had the under tank heater and now it's a regular fluorescent lightbulb that doesn't put out any heat. So, yes, she is in my closet, but she has not been in darkness (other than at nighttime obvious).

What temps are you referring to when you say they are quite high? Are you referring to the warm side temps, the cool side temps, or the temperature right up against the glass? If I turn down the heat then the only place in the tank that will be a good hot spot temperature (90-92) will be right up against the glass on the bottom of the tank. Right now it's the proper temperature on top of the aspen and under the first few layers of aspen. She will only be experiencing 100 degrees if she gets under ALL the aspen (and there's a pretty thick layer) and lays right on the bottom of the tank in one small area.

Hey lupegirl8, sorry u r still having the feeding issue with ur hoggie. I was referring to the hot spot on the glass as being the area of too high of a temperature. At 100f that is dangerously high and remember that glass acts like a magnifier of heat in small areas. Your hoggie is very capable of burrowing under aspen layers towards that hot spot. IMO,i would purchase a small thermostat or rheostat and let that be one less thing I have to worry about. Remember also that all snakes are temperature and seasonal driven. They take most of their cues in behavior from external temperatures. If a snake is uncomfortable bc the temps are too high he wont eat and vice versa if its too cold he wont eat bc he will think its time to hibernate. By controlling the temps in a safe zone you can rule out the temperature as the reason for a non feeder. :Wow: Stay in peace and not pieces. Good luck.

[lupegirl8]

The thing that kills me is that she ACTS like she's hungry. She roams the tank with her tongue flicking like she's looking for food. When I come over she looks up eagerly as though expecting to be fed. She often approaches the pinkie and even puts her mouth against it and licks it like she is thinking about eating it.

Yesterday I tried to tong feed with the light off. She didn't hiss at the pinkie initially like she usually does. She came toward it calmly, put her nose against it (it was brained and tuna-scented), and licked it. It was SURE she was going to open her mouth and eat it any minute. Then out of the blue she hissed and I flinched slightly. Once I flinched (thereby making the tongs jerk slightly) she was done and went to hide.

The fact that she comes out and approaches the pinkie and that she is out wandering (not hiding all the time) would make me think that she has adjusted to her new home. She acts just like every other well-adjusted reptile I've seen with the exception of the not eating thing. It's just strange to me.

[Albert Clark]

That is progress though. I would stick to what you have been doing bc that is showing promise.