Rear Fanged Opinions

[ngav3]

What do you guys treat rear fanged as? Do you treat them as if they were non-toxic with a little bit of venom, or do you consider them venomous with a poor delivery system. Ive seen people treat them both ways.

Thanks for your opinions
Nick

[MDT]

Non-toxic with a little bit of venom is like being "kind of pregnant".

Venomous with a different delivery system... (it works for them, it just seems to us that front fanged snakes "do it better").

I think that if you asked a Boomslang bite victim, they'd tell you "venomous".

[Sylphie]

Uhh you know, I'm with MDT, but... but then there are hognose snakes, and in this case I can't treat them anything different than "kind of venomous"...

[MDT]

I think you gotta define parameters. If you're a toad, a hognose snake is deadly. If you're a human...not so much. Will you swell and have pain from the venom? Most likely...due to the enzymatic and proteolytic nature of the venom. Will it kill you? Nope...

[Aaron_S]

I think you gotta define parameters. If you're a toad, a hognose snake is deadly. If you're a human...not so much. Will you swell and have pain from the venom? Most likely...due to the enzymatic and proteolytic nature of the venom. Will it kill you? Nope...

There's a fairly well documented case of a hognose bite on this forum. I think the pictures should still be in the thread. It was a member so I don't know if she took them down or not.

[SnoopySnake]

There's a fairly well documented case of a hognose bite on this forum. I think the pictures should still be in the thread. It was a member so I don't know if she took them down or not.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/heterodon/92706-hognose-venom-debate-over.html

This one?

[Aaron_S]

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/heterodon/92706-hognose-venom-debate-over.html

This one?

Yeah that's it. I was too lazy to find it :D

[prairiepanda]

Personally, I would treat all rear-fanged snakes as hots. The only exception would be that I'd probably free-handle hognoses. But I would still keep them in locked cages in a secure, reasonably escape-proof room. Why? Even though they aren't deadly to me, I would be concerned for the safety of my other animals and any very small children that may be around.

[MDT]

There's a fairly well documented case of a hognose bite on this forum. I think the pictures should still be in the thread. It was a member so I don't know if she took them down or not.

That's the one specifically comes to mind.

[FWK]

Outside of an allergic reaction, the majority of rear-fanged snakes (Opisthoglyphous) are harmless to people. Some, such as Hognose (Heterodon sp.), will produce local symptoms such as swelling and pain. The severity of these symptoms depend on the individual bitten and the amount of venom delivered. Others, such as New World Vine Snakes (Oxybelis sp.) and Night Snakes (Hypsiglena sp.), are very prey-specific and typically have virtually no effect on humans or even small mammals, only on their target prey, reptiles. Many reptiles have primitive precursor venoms in their saliva. Water Snakes (Nerodia sp.) are a good example, they have an anticogulant protease in their saliva which is what makes Water Snake bites bleed so much. Garter Snakes (Thamnophis sp.) contain neurotoxic peptides in their saliva similar to Cobras (Naja sp.). In fact, most snakes in the Natricinae family are venomous on some level. A postsynaptic neurotoxin has even been found in the saliva of the Radiated Rat Snake (Coelognathus radiata). Bearded Dragons (Pogona sp.) have the myotoxin Crotamine in their saliva, Crotamine is found in Rattlesnake venom (Crotalus sp.). The tiny, unassuming Ringneck Snake (Diadophis punctatus) is rear-fanged and mildly venomous. Some of the larger rear fanged snakes, such as False Water Cobras (Hydrodynastes gigas) and Cat Snakes (Boiga sp.), should be treated with caution due to their ability to deliver a relatively large dose of venom. Boomslangs (Dispholidus typus) and Twig Snakes (Thelotornis kirtlandi) are medically significant and have caused fatalities, their combination of toxicity and venom yield is not to be messed with.

It is silly to treat a Hognose as a hot, just as it would be silly to treat a Garter or Bearded Dragon as a hot. I certainly wouldn't dip my finger in a bowl of thawing mice and wiggle it in front of my Hognose, but then I wouldn't do that to any of my snakes. Note that the bite in the thread posted above was a feeding bite, she had fish on her hands when she put them into the snakes enclosure. This is pretty much the only way to take a Hognose bite, they do not bite defensively. Do some research on the species you want to keep and make your own decisions. Realize a bite from any snake could cause an allergic reaction, you do not know how your body will react until it happens. The odds of a serious reaction is obviously very low, but do use common sense.

[MDT]

unless you have become sensitized to specific proteins in the saliva (such as a previous bite), you will not have an allergic reaction to the saliva.

i wouldn't treat a hognose as hot per se (reference the thread above...she had a bad reaction to venom), but just know there *could* be an issue, however the VAST majority of folks will be fine.

in the end, FWK is correct about using common sense. Nobody wants a "here, hold my beer and watch this" moment.

[FWK]

So one cannot have an allergic reaction to saliva without first becoming sensitized via previous bites? Could you expound on this a bit? I was under the impression one could be allergic to the saliva of any given animal without first being sensitized, but I'm sure you know a whole lot more about allergies than I ever will. I have heard of hot keepers becoming sensitized over time by simply inhaling venom dust when cleaning enclosures and what not.

Nobody wants a "here, hold my beer and watch this" moment.

Hear, hear. Not in this hobby.

[MDT]

Sure...typically (and I'm not an immunologist...just a dumb ER doc :D )...but the foreign protein is introduced (bee venom, peanut, red dye#whatever)...your "immune cells" don't like that protein and in a sense form memory cells whose job it is to be on the look out for that protein again. if that protein is sensed, your body goes into action by trying to use previously formed antibodies and other cellular defenses to attack and bind those proteins.
some of those defenses are the release of histamines, kinins, prostolglandins, etc to fight it off...but the result of those chemicals are also itching, rash, vascular, and possibly cardiac and respiratory issues (this is where an allergic reaction now becomes anaphylaxis)....

and you are correct, inhaling the dust certainly can sensitize you. i think i've referenced this before, but i had a case of a gila bite that presented in vascular collapse (and intense pain)...gila venom shouldn't be *that* serious...but this patient required aggressive blood pressure management and intubation/ventilation support until the reaction was stabilized. it turns out that about a year or so before, he had been "nipped" by a mexican beaded lizard juvenile. this was apparently enough to cause the sensitization for this guy.

[D Grade]

I would base it off of attitude, feeding response, and history of bite cases and venom reaction. I've handled a good amount of Regal Ring Necks, Night Snakes, and Lyres free hand and wouldn't think twice about doing it again next time. Simply because there are no documented deaths or serious medical bite records, the snakes really aren't big enough to get a good latch on any fingers, and they have been nothing but spectacular attitude wise so far.

As we get into Water Snakes, larger Hogs, Vine Snakes, Barons Racers, and so forth, I would up caution a little bit just due to history of bite symptoms and reactions. As mentioned, Water Snakes are documented to contain an anticoagulant protein which causes excessive bleeding. Hogs and Vines have caused noticeable reactions which required medical care. Barons Racers have caused more serious reactions and I've even been told deaths have occurred from severe bites. Certainly something to remember as they glide across your fingers.

Going into Boiga species, they are known to be fairly docile diurinal, and very agressive nocturnally. There are many folks who free handle Boiga, but I think if I began keeping them (in which I would love a Dendrophila or Nigracepes), I think I would prefer to get some more info on saliva composition before becoming heavily involved in free handling them. Until then, I would treat them as venomous, use hooks for handling, and just completely avoid working with them at night. Boomslangs are a whole new level and are actually rear fanged, not enlarged rear toothed. Not to mention the last thing I would want is to die bleeding from the inside out.

[prairiepanda]

It is silly to treat a Hognose as a hot, just as it would be silly to treat a Garter or Bearded Dragon as a hot. I certainly wouldn't dip my finger in a bowl of thawing mice and wiggle it in front of my Hognose, but then I wouldn't do that to any of my snakes. Note that the bite in the thread posted above was a feeding bite, she had fish on her hands when she put them into the snakes enclosure. This is pretty much the only way to take a Hognose bite, they do not bite defensively. Do some research on the species you want to keep and make your own decisions. Realize a bite from any snake could cause an allergic reaction, you do not know how your body will react until it happens. The odds of a serious reaction is obviously very low, but do use common sense.

The idea behind me treating them as hots is to protect those more vulnerable than myself(small animals and very young children/babies) for whom even a hognose can potentially be a danger. I know it's harmless to me(hence why I would happily free handle a hoggie), but I'm concerned about others. I keep my tarantulas similarly because despite all of them having very weak venom(many could not even kill a mouse with the amount they deliver in a bite), their urticating hairs could do serious damage to a curious cat or toddler if I leave their enclosures randomly around the house like I do with my other pets. They don't present any danger to responsible adults, but responsible adults aren't the only factor to consider, at least for me.

[Aaron_S]

Question, is a hognose considered venomous in the eyes of a by-law that simply says "No venomous snakes". It doesn't discern potency of venom or how lethal. I would venture to say yes, it could cause the owner a headache of having to move the animal to somewhere else and then fight this out.

[pet_snake_78]

You can always use a pair of thick leather gloves or even a hook if you're really paranoid, but I sure hope people do not become terrified of ringneck snakes. I've handled hundreds, if not thousands. In the lower midwest, I've seen a dozen or so under a single rock. In modern society, people have become so delusional about risk it's hard to have a rational conversation about something like this, though. They do not see the risk in sitting on the couch with a 60 oz soda and tripple cheeseburger with super sized fries which they drove on thread bare tires to go pick up, but mention a garter snake could be considered "venomous" and they are terrified to come out into their lawns.

[FWK]

You can always use a pair of thick leather gloves or even a hook if you're really paranoid, but I sure hope people do not become terrified of ringneck snakes. I've handled hundreds, if not thousands. In the lower midwest, I've seen a dozen or so under a single rock. In modern society, people have become so delusional about risk it's hard to have a rational conversation about something like this, though. They do not see the risk in sitting on the couch with a 60 oz soda and tripple cheeseburger with super sized fries which they drove on thread bare tires to go pick up, but mention a garter snake could be considered "venomous" and they are terrified to come out into their lawns.

This, so much this. You did forget to mention the cigarette they where dragging on all the while procuring and consuming said cheeseburger, fries and drink. A slow and miserable suicide.

[jjhill001]

This, so much this. You did forget to mention the cigarette they where dragging on all the while procuring and consuming said cheeseburger, fries and drink. A slow and miserable suicide.

Don't be mad just because I can eat a cheeseburger in one bite without even taking the cigarette out of my mouth.

On a more serious note however with hognose snakes make sure to be really careful during feeding time:

hognose snake bite (http://www.herpnet.net/bite/)

[Venomhunter]

When working with a hognose, i don't use any equipment simply because of the low potency, poor delivery system and very mild disposition. However, when i work with boigas for instance i do use equipment because they can be sketchy.

[reptiledude987]

Boomslangs keep being being mentioned as rear fanged. However their fangs arent in the same location as the other species being refered to here. Boomslangs fangs are actually in a more central position on the jaw. Basically right unger their eye. So yes theyre not front fanged like elapids and viperids but theyre not really rearfanged like hoggies and vine snakes either.

[FWK]

Boomslangs keep being being mentioned as rear fanged. However their fangs arent in the same location as the other species being refered to here. Boomslangs fangs are actually in a more central position on the jaw. Basically right unger their eye. So yes theyre not front fanged like elapids and viperids but theyre not really rearfanged like hoggies and vine snakes either.

Boomslangs are Opisthoglyphous same as all rear-fanged colubrids. Rear-fanged is really a bit of a misnomer, as you have noted the fangs are located near the middle of the jaw. Google pictures of Hognose and Boomslangs, you will see fangs are basically in the same position in the jaw. For example, here is a Boomslang (http://media.web.britannica.com/eb-media/19/163819-004-EF44919D.jpg), and here is a Hognose (http://www.uniqueserpents.com/images/Hognose/Heterodon%20nasicus%20nasicus%205a%20-%20mouth%20open,%201000c.jpg).

[Venomhunter]

Boomslangs are Opisthoglyphous same as all rear-fanged colubrids. Rear-fanged is really a bit of a misnomer, as you have noted the fangs are located near the middle of the jaw. Google pictures of Hognose and Boomslangs, you will see fangs are basically in the same position in the jaw. For example, here is a Boomslang (http://media.web.britannica.com/eb-media/19/163819-004-EF44919D.jpg), and here is a Hognose (http://www.uniqueserpents.com/images/Hognose/Heterodon%20nasicus%20nasicus%205a%20-%20mouth%20open,%201000c.jpg).
That is the most formidable shot that i've ever seen from a hognose! :D