Is there a rule for this?

[Tiny Boidae]

Um OK. I've been looking through the deep dark recesses of the internet and can't find enough information for this. If I were to build a plywood enclosure, is there any way of telling if the wood is thick enough to hold my captive? I'm planning on making an 8'x2'x5' enclosure for a rat snake, and when I was at Lowes today peeking around at what they had, I realized I had no idea of the thickness I need. I don't want it to be too thin that it isn't structurally supported or, worse yet, easy for a large snake to manipulate, but I don't want it to be too thick that I'm wasting money. Is there a rule of thumb that I'm missing?

[trailblazer295]

I never heard of a snake breaking a piece of plywood, it comes down to how stable and secure the cage is. And what design/framing you're planning on doing. 1/4" thick is going to bow quite a bit in the middle. Probably be looking at 1/2 or 3/4 for rigidity for building and screwing it together.

[reptiledude987]

I wouldnt go less than 3/8". 1/2 - 3/4" would be ideal.

[Tiny Boidae]

My bigger concern was the cage being structurally unstable due to the sheer size of it coupled with the fact that I'm going to be mounting some lights and a grout background, and I was worried that it might do some weird things if it were too thin. The snake pushing apart the plywood was only a thought that had crossed my mind- it wasn't based off anything I heard.

Do you think I could get away with a 1/4" sheet if I used some 2x4's or something to create a nice frame? It's also going to be resting directly on the floor, so I don't have to worry about the bottom sheet being too thin.

I'm just trying to be really careful about this.

Reptiledude987-

Sorry, your post came in after I posted. Alrighty, I'll stick with 1/2" sheets.

[trailblazer295]

You might need some kind of support framing even with 1/2"plywood just due to the size of the cage. Of course this depends on what your cage design is, specifically the front area. You might need 1 or 2 cross beams in the center to keep everything flat and tight. A 6ft 2x4 would give you 3 supports along the top. Might be worth looking into 4x4 posts or corner brackets to give the corners more strength and prevent twisting on an axis. A few stainless steel corner brackets will add a lot in terms of strength to prevent the whole thing from twisting and not take up much space.

[Tiny Boidae]

I'm not sure EXACTLY of what I want yet- there's a lot of me going back and forth at the moment. However, here are the rough designs that I sketched out on my phone. The numbers aren't going to be nearly as neat and perfect as these, but it's a start.

http://i62.tinypic.com/2lc91k2.png

I'm probably going to have 3'x3' hinged glass doors that swing out such as that. I'll put some wood framing around it to make it look nice, but that's basically the exoskeleton in the front.

For this next one, be warned- I'm no artist.

http://i58.tinypic.com/fnbrte.png

I'll use some spare wood to create a small tunnel thing that'll probably be inside the rock wall, and while it'll only extend out maybe 4-6" at most (that is NOT to scale. None of this is), it'll encompass the entire surface area of the interior (except, of course, the wall containing the door, the floor, and the ceiling).

I was trying to give you an idea of what I'm planning and such, not too good at it and it's still got some bugs to work out (like how I'm going to get the snake out if it decides to stay put in that giant tunnel thing), but it's what I have planned so far.

I'll look into the brackets though, I hadn't thought about how everything will be held together until today. Thanks so much for your help.

[toddnbecka]

I'm building 2'x4'x18" boxes from 1/2" plywood. Any wider and they'd need to be braced, but the first one (prototype to iron the bugs out of the build) is coming along pretty well. Worst thing I've found is that the pieces of plywood aren't exactly square, so I ended up with some gaps around the edges when I nailed them together, and the glass (3/16" sliding doors) doesn't fit square with the right side. The gaps around the wood can easily be sealed with silicone caulk, and I'm thinking I might simply glue a small strip of wood at the front side to block the gap. Need a small opening for the heat mat cord in any case, though I would prefer the whole thing to fit squarely all around.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/toddnbecka/P1060714_zps67ktqpbt.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/toddnbecka/media/P1060714_zps67ktqpbt.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/toddnbecka/P1060715_zps5tsnohk5.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/toddnbecka/media/P1060715_zps5tsnohk5.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/toddnbecka/P1060716_zpsilcd44hz.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/toddnbecka/media/P1060716_zpsilcd44hz.jpg.html)

For something as large as you're describing I'd use the 1/2" to cut down on weight. I looked at 3/4" oak plywood for my boxes, then decided on the 1/2" pine partly because I'm planning at least a dozen and the 3/4" would be significantly more expensive.
Oddly, 1/4" glass is the same price as 3/16", tempered is quite a bit more than regular. There's no need to use the thicker glass though, particularly for a rat snake, might be a good option for a large python.

[Tiny Boidae]

Yup, 1/2" seems like the best option for me. I'll see if the braces work for me, and if they don't I'll make a nice frame out of 2x4's. You said you used pine wood though, isn't that a big no-no?

As for the glass, I was going to use acrylic sheets from an old fish tank taking up space in the shed. I'll have to be mindful of it getting scratched up and it might be a little thick for my liking, but I'll take free where I can get it.

[RAD House]

Pine shouldn't be a problem as long as it is well sealed. Really any bare plywood should be diligently sealed due to the glues they use in constructing them and just general sanitation. I ended up using 3/4 for the bottom, sides, and top with 1/2 inch for the back. Really I would have liked to use more 1/2 inch but I had sent free 3/4 laying around and I stacked them so needed a stronger frame. I don't think I would have used anything less than 3/4 for the bottom as I was concerned about it bowing when I put the feet on it.

[jarich]

I would recommend using a frame for that size no matter what. You could use 2x4 for the long braces and get away with 2x2s for the short runs. If you are building that cave, I'd use a run of 2x2 for that as well to add a bit more strength to your length. At 8 feet you'll get bowing over time without something added to support the plywood.

[Tiny Boidae]

Ah, alrighty then. Thanks for clearing that up. I was planning on sealing it anyway as beauty snakes do need a bit of moisture, I've just heard mixed things about pine enclosures (I've read that it was OK so long as it was sealed, as you've said, and then others that said it was generally a bad idea). I was planning on using a water-based polyurethane, hopefully one that's rated as food safe. Will that be enough?


Alrighty, it won't be a problem to make a frame. Would I still need those braces and such if I build an actual frame?

[reptiledude987]

Its going to be about how you are fastening the seams as to weather or not a frame will be needed. At any size a frame would never be a bad thing. To put it in perspective; I built a 6'wide 30"deep 4' high enclosure out of 5/8" ply with no frame. It was rock solid! On the seams I put a bead of pl construction adhesive then used a brad nailed and put nails every 2-3" the whole way around.

[eminart]

Its going to be about how you are fastening the seams as to weather or not a frame will be needed.


This.


I just built a 6'x2' that incorporates a stand/cabinet. I used 3/4" maple ply and glued and screwed all the seams. The only place I used a frame was in the lower area to support the floor. Mine has a few hundred pounds of soil in it though. It all depends on your plans for it, and how you want to build it and make it look.

[Tiny Boidae]

As for the seams, I was planning on sanding the edges first, using wood glue, and then putting drills through it at regular intervals. It's also going to be directly on the floor, so take that as you will. I might also silicone the edges from the inside just to make sure it's sealed up air tight.

I mean I might just do a frame to be on the safe side.

[Jim Smith]

As others have said, I would not go any smaller than 1/2 exterior plywood for that sized enclosure. If you go cheap now, you will regret it later. Even then, I would have an external frame to support the weight and prevent bowing. If I understand your plans, you intend to put a u-shaped tunnel within the cage to act as a hide. If that is your intentions, then I strongly suggest that you make the front of the tunnels as hinged doors to allow you to access the tunnel for cleaning etc. Otherwise over time, it's going to get really, really nasty. Also, you mention a rock wall. This will add a LOT of weight which translates to strain on the enclosure and frame. You will definitely want to plan this out very carefully before you start cutting wood and fastening pieces together. I also recommend that you use high quality construction adhesive as well as screws for the assembly. Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.

[jarich]

Im sure its solid when you first build it, lets see how that holds up over the years. ;) Plywood is simply glued wood dust and compressed fibre with a thin veneer over it. It has nothing to hold the screws/nails in place if you ever move it or it swells or any other thing that might happen over time (especially when you add moisture and such). Its why your IKEA furniture falls apart after you move the first time. Simply adding a bit of solid wood framing means you dont have to worry about all that. It also allows you to square things much easier without the holes like you see in that example above.

[Tiny Boidae]

Jim Smith-

Wow thank you so much for that! I think I'm going to go ahead with the wood frame just to be on the safe side, and space the 2x4's at a two foot interval. Does that sound about right?

http://i59.tinypic.com/2zrjo7l.png

That's what I have planned for the 8' back wall so far. The same will be repeated on the sides although I'm not sure if the front needs as much bracing due to the door being there?

The tunnel is meant to run parallel to the walls, I just am a bad artist. But you're right about everything else. I wanted to mimic an animal burrow that they'd hide in, so I'll probably have several more entrances and exits in there as well as a hay bedding for it to dig in (the rest of the cage will be a top soil/sand mixture). I was thinking of having little hinged door openings on the outside actually, as this is going to be resting right along the wall (it's actually going to be drilled into it). I also was going to make the rock wall into sections that I can drill into place (in case there's some unforeseeable incident where I'd need to take it apart), and the tunnel would serve a second purpose as a basking ledge/possible support of the wall (it's going to have to protrude outwards because of the tunnel, the wall is). I understand that it's generally a good idea not to get it this complex, but I have a really nice design in my head and spelling it out, I'm realizing a lot of flaws that I wouldn't have come across until I got to that bridge.

So measure twice, cut once? I'm not assembling it until around December if there aren't any bumps in the road, but I'm starting to buy the supplies now so that I can stretch out my spendings. It'd be a bad idea for me to do this all at once on minimum wage, seeing as my girls are pretty costly, but I'm getting there slowly. But when I do finally come around to assembling it, you'll definitely hear about it. Thanks so much.


Jarich-

Yup, I decided to build the frame. I didn't know that about plywood though, it wasn't really something I thought about. Thanks for your help, as that's something that I'll definitely be wary of. I'll go ahead and buy the framing before I get the lumber, see if I can get at least a model to work with within a reasonable amount of time.

[eminart]

Im sure its solid when you first build it, lets see how that holds up over the years. ;) Plywood is simply glued wood dust and compressed fibre with a thin veneer over it. It has nothing to hold the screws/nails in place if you ever move it or it swells or any other thing that might happen over time (especially when you add moisture and such). Its why your IKEA furniture falls apart after you move the first time. Simply adding a bit of solid wood framing means you dont have to worry about all that. It also allows you to square things much easier without the holes like you see in that example above.

Done correctly, plywood can be very sturdy without a frame. It all depends on the design. And the furniture from ikea is particle board, not plywood. Plywood is not wood dust glued together. It is solid, 8'x4' sheets, shaved off of logs, that are stacked to the desired thickness, and glued with the grain being perpendicular. And it is very strong.

[jarich]

Eminart, you are correct that most IKEA stuff is particle board, sorry for the exaggeration there. However, if youve built enclosures for years, youll quickly discover that no matter how you do it, plywood does not really hold up over the years on its own, without a frame of some sort. The veneers will separate, your screws/nails will come loose, and youll end up wishing you just took the bit of extra time to frame it out. Im not looking to start an argument or anything, its just honestly a much more sturdy build, especially over time.

[RAD House]

Jarich I am curious how many plywood enclosures you have built? And how many you had issues with? Properly constructed and sealed a plywood enclosure should hold up for quite a long time. There are even boats with plywood hulls.

[LarryS]

I'd have to say you're both correct. Many plywood types will delam when exposed to moisture. The key, as already mentioned is to properly adhere the joinery and seal the insides.

A plywood box, done correctly is a very strong structure on its own, no frame needed. Usually a face frame is used at the front to add strength for the door opening.