Crazy feeding response

[forza_inter]

I have a 4 year old female Dumerils boa, and since I got her feeding time has ranged from having to dangle the rat for a few seconds before she quickly grabbed it off the tongs, to bopping her on the nose with it a few times before she realized food was there.

The last 2/3 months though, I've noticed a complete change in her feeding response. I'm used to her chilling in the back corner of her tank until she catches whiff of the rat thawing, then she moves to the door patiently waiting for her meal. But lately it seems like she spends more and more time at the door stalking every movement, whether its feeding day or not. And when I do feed her, I cant even get close enough to unlatch the 3 locks on the cage. She strikes wildly, going absolutely crazy, and I don't want her to end up injuring herself.

Nothing has changed since I moved her into her adult enclosure (about 2 years ago), temps are all the same (85-90 on the hot side, 75-80 on the cool), I keep her enclosure clean and her water full & fresh. Its just her feeding response that has gotten out of hand...mind you I would rather this than her refusing food, but its kind of hard to feed her when I cant even get close to her enclosure. Shes currently eating a large f/t rat every 2/3 weeks.

Any advice for a snake with crazy feeding response?

[Tiny Boidae]

What about outside the enclosure? Do you have any new pets or such that she might be able to get a whiff of? Particularly of the rodent variety?

I'd also like to know how many hides you have in the enclosure and what kind they are. I doubt this has anything to do with insecurity, but you never know.

First off, I would avoid thawing the rat near the cage anymore, as this process takes hours and that's unnaturally long time that a predator has to be in the presence of prey (think of it as sensory overload). I used to just place the mouse ontop of my sand boas' cages to thaw, and they'd get increasingly anxious during that time. I stopped it and I got just as powerful of a feeding response, and they weren't spinning their wheels over the mouse while it thawed.

I'm no expert on hook training, as I have small snakes, but that'd probably be a useful thing to invest some time in.

Snakes, in nature, develop a certain routine that they perform day-in, and day-out. They crawl along the same path, hunt in the same place, hide in the same places... There's very little variation in a perfect world, which is why snakes are so good at picking up on routine in captivity. This isn't a perfect world, however, and sometimes in the wild when a spot they always traversed no longer brings it the metaphorical fruit it once had, they move on. Maybe if you let her miss out on a feeding and try again on a day you don't normally feed, this feeding response won't be as strong? I'm merely speculating that she's simply gotten the pattern in her head that when that cage door opens on this certain day, I get food. She recognizes where the food comes from and so she's developed a new "hunting" strategy. Again, mere speculation, but it's a start. Try and break the chain of normalcy and maybe even hide the mouse at the back of the cage, even if she's sitting by the door, and she might associate that with food instead of the door.

[forza_inter]

Nothing has changed in the room I keep her in (den)...there isn't much traffic, only me or my wife when we use the PC. My dogs aren't even allowed in there lol

I don't have any hides in there anymore. I had a large wooden hide in there, but she never used it and was constantly pushing it against the side of the enclosure. So I tried a plastic one (cool side of the tank of course) and she did the same thing. It was like she was annoyed with them, so I took them out.

As for hook training, I already have her trained. Been doing it with her for years. This erratic behavior only started a few months ago. I really cant think of anything that could have caused it. Literally nothing has changed. Its like someone just flicked a switch or something. I don't take her out as much, maybe thats why? I try to have her out once a week or once every 2 weeks. Been like that since I got her.

I appreciate the input, I'll try a few different things and see how it goes. Definitely going to start thawing the rat in the basement. Really should have stopped doing that a while ago...but thanks again

Here she is in her enclosure...

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a50/mancuso21/20150722_063851.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/mancuso21/media/20150722_063851.jpg.html)

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a50/mancuso21/20140508_082545.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/mancuso21/media/20140508_082545.jpg.html)

[reptiledude987]

I try putting the hides back and see if the behaviour changes. If thats the only thing thats changed it could be the cause. Even if you never saw it use them they could have been used while you werent around and without the option of security could be the cause of the change.

[forza_inter]

Yea, I'll give that a shot too see if it helps at all

Thanks

[Tiny Boidae]

Hmm, no matter if an animal constantly uses it or not, a hide should always be an option, especially with one of the sides being see-through. Maybe try to adhere some fake plants along the walls and such that are big enough for her to hide in? In my water dragon enclosure I use zip ties to hold the plants into place in pre-drilled holes. They're able to hold onto it without trouble but they're a bit tricky to remove without destroying. It'll serve as a hide and if you do it right, perhaps a bit of decor?

I doubt this is handling issue. I might only handle some of my snakes once every two weeks and they're just as tame as they always were, have never had one "revert" back so to speak. Again, individuals might be different, but if she were nervous of you and being aggressive she wouldn't be near the door, she'd be as far from you as she can get generally.

Yeah, it's always great to break habit with a snake. Gives them a bit of stimulation and it might help lessen such a violent feeding response. Once you get this problem curbed, might even be useful to hide it so that she has to actually hunt for her food, and therefore not associating you and that door with it. Try and dig a hole in the aspen all the way to the floor of the enclosure, plop a rat in the space, and place down a lidless, upside down tubbaware container over it to give them a challenge (drill small holes in the side so the scent has a chance to reach her without a problem). I just tried this on my female sand boa last night, and it took her a while to get it but she eventually did and if a snake could enjoy something, well then she most certainly did. I don't know the success of this, as this is JUST something I figured I'd try, but presenting challenges for your snakes is a great way to provide enrichment through something they'd do naturally in the wild.

[forza_inter]

Interesting...I've never considered hiding it. Although I highly doubt I would be able to. Unless I get her to stop coming to the door, as soon as it opens and i have a rat, theres no way in hell I'm going to stick any part of my body inside the enclosure.

I did manage to drop the rat inside today when feeding her. First time I ever fed her without tongs. Took forever for her to finally calm down enough so I could get the door opened enough to drop the rat in. She didn't even go for it right away. She was climbing on it, still pacing in front of the door back and forth...I see what you meant when you said they get in a routine. The rat was right there and she didn't even take notice right away. Eventually she realized what she was climbing on and starting eating.

I really appreciate all the advice

[forza_inter]

BTW how is your sand boa? I've been wanting to get one of those for a while now. I've heard nothing but good things about them. Seem like a calm smaller sized snake

[Tiny Boidae]

No problem. It might help if you can use the hook to get her out and then hide the rat while she's exploring. You don't have to go full tech on it, maybe a little puzzle or just hide it in a different place each time. Might also help if you drag it around the enclosure first so they can follow the scent trail to it.

In a few feedings, she should start to pick up on the new routine and the problem will hopefully go away :)

[Tiny Boidae]

My sand boas are great, all of them. Spudz is a little maniac on scales, but none of them really ever bite and while Spudz will bluff all day (jerking around and such), he'll never actually grab onto me.

Calm isn't necessarily something I'd use to describe any of them. While you never see them, they're almost always moving around under the substrate I find and when you have them out, they'll be moving around trying to figure out how to burrow into solid surfaces. Placid is a good word, but they're not calm snakes in the sense of lazy or boring. All of them are great feeders, a little tricky to get on their first meal with you but after that I've never, and I mean never after five years of working with these animals, have had them refuse a meal. They're voracious little boogers, and while you'll never see them I personally love mine to death :)

[lady_bug87]

She could be mature sexually now. Sometimes when females are "building" their feeding response will change drastically. Her biological clock could be telling her to bulk up for breeding.

I thaw my rats right on top of my rack. For me, there's no difference on where i thaw them the response is always the same.

[lady_bug87]

No problem. It might help if you can use the hook to get her out and then hide the rat while she's exploring. You don't have to go full tech on it, maybe a little puzzle or just hide it in a different place each time. Might also help if you drag it around the enclosure first so they can follow the scent trail to it.

In a few feedings, she should start to pick up on the new routine and the problem will hopefully go away :)

I'd be afraid of not finding it and thinking the snake ate it then i smell it decaying.... no me gusta.

[lady_bug87]

And no thank you to handling a hungry boa when it smells food.

[forza_inter]

My sand boas are great, all of them. Spudz is a little maniac on scales, but none of them really ever bite and while Spudz will bluff all day (jerking around and such), he'll never actually grab onto me.

Calm isn't necessarily something I'd use to describe any of them. While you never see them, they're almost always moving around under the substrate I find and when you have them out, they'll be moving around trying to figure out how to burrow into solid surfaces. Placid is a good word, but they're not calm snakes in the sense of lazy or boring. All of them are great feeders, a little tricky to get on their first meal with you but after that I've never, and I mean never after five years of working with these animals, have had them refuse a meal. They're voracious little boogers, and while you'll never see them I personally love mine to death :)


thats awesome

[forza_inter]

And no thank you to handling a hungry boa when it smells food.

thats my biggest concern lol

[forza_inter]

She could be mature sexually now. Sometimes when females are "building" their feeding response will change drastically. Her biological clock could be telling her to bulk up for breeding.

I thaw my rats right on top of my rack. For me, there's no difference on where i thaw them the response is always the same.

Didnt think of that either...at what age do they hit maturity? Rougly

[lady_bug87]

thats my biggest concern lol

I'm on team "let's not get bit" boas are serious business when it's food time. I use a hook to open my bin and then use 24in hemostats to hold the rat. Haha

[lady_bug87]

Didnt think of that either...at what age do they hit maturity? Rougly

Probably between 3 and 4 years so this could very well be her "first" season.

If there's no food is she normal?

[forza_inter]

Probably between 3 and 4 years so this could very well be her "first" season.

If there's no food is she normal?


I fed her 2 weeks ago and she usually eats and stays near the back corner until shes hungry again which takes a while

but literally like 4/5 days after she ate, she was at the door, doing her thing. I walked into the room and was like are you kidding me? you just ate. And from then until today she did the whole pacing back & forth, starring at everything that moved

very unusual behavior

[Tiny Boidae]

I hadn't even thought of that lady bugs. It makes sense logically, but I've never heard of them doing that (then again I don't own a boa longer than a few feet...) But hey! The more you know and such, and it's great to throw out all of the possibilities for this problem. Only the snake really knows the reason behind this, and I don't see her talking about it anytime soon.

As far as hiding it goes, it'd probably require a little more close of monitoring to make sure it doesn't rot like that (as in checking back the next morning and seeing if it's gone or not), but for small collections that isn't a huge deal usually (it's at the discretion of the keeper after all. It's worth it for someone like me, gives my snakes something to do other than just sitting there, but it might not work for someone else. To each his own).

Let us know if she doesn't get better forza! We'll always be here to help :)

[lady_bug87]

I fed her 2 weeks ago and she usually eats and stays near the back corner until shes hungry again which takes a while

but literally like 4/5 days after she ate, she was at the door, doing her thing. I walked into the room and was like are you kidding me? you just ate. And from then until today she did the whole pacing back & forth, starring at everything that moved

very unusual behavior

How big is she and what size is she eating? Maybe its time for a change

[forza_inter]

shes around 5 ft give or take...shes on Large f/t rats

[forza_inter]

I hadn't even thought of that lady bugs. It makes sense logically, but I've never heard of them doing that (then again I don't own a boa longer than a few feet...) But hey! The more you know and such, and it's great to throw out all of the possibilities for this problem. Only the snake really knows the reason behind this, and I don't see her talking about it anytime soon.

As far as hiding it goes, it'd probably require a little more close of monitoring to make sure it doesn't rot like that (as in checking back the next morning and seeing if it's gone or not), but for small collections that isn't a huge deal usually (it's at the discretion of the keeper after all. It's worth it for someone like me, gives my snakes something to do other than just sitting there, but it might not work for someone else. To each his own).

Let us know if she doesn't get better forza! We'll always be here to help :)

will do, thanks again

[lady_bug87]

shes around 5 ft give or take...shes on Large f/t rats

Hmmm ok. Well for now I'll go with breeding season.

[SnakeyJay]

And no thank you to handling a hungry boa when it smells food.

Exactly my thoughts on that, there's no way I'd get a rat out with my male BCI that tends to have the same response as this a while ago...

For 6 months my male went absolutely mental, striking the glass and always being near the door in strike position... He'd get himself so worked up that he'd "tick" slightly from side to side, I learnt to recognise this as being over stimulated/aggravated.

The way I fixed it (which may not work at all for you) was that he had been moved to a lower viv on the floor while normally his viv was the second one up in a stack.. I found that he was stressed by me looming over him when approaching so I've moved him back and he's calmed back down.

I also used to thaw my rats in the snake room but as has been said, I found that by feeding time they were going absolutely nuts and I was lucky to open the glass before he threw his whole 7ft at me.

[forza_inter]

Hmmm ok. Well for now I'll go with breeding season.

Could very well be...if it actually is, how should I handle her? more, less, maybe just leave her alone for a while?

[forza_inter]

Exactly my thoughts on that, there's no way I'd get a rat out with my male BCI that tends to have the same response as this a while ago...

For 6 months my male went absolutely mental, striking the glass and always being near the door in strike position... He'd get himself so worked up that he'd "tick" slightly from side to side, I learnt to recognise this as being over stimulated/aggravated.

The way I fixed it (which may not work at all for you) was that he had been moved to a lower viv on the floor while normally his viv was the second one up in a stack.. I found that he was stressed by me looming over him when approaching so I've moved him back and he's calmed back down.

I also used to thaw my rats in the snake room but as has been said, I found that by feeding time they were going absolutely nuts and I was lucky to open the glass before he threw his whole 7ft at me.


Yea mine is behaving the exact same way. Appreciate the advice

[lady_bug87]

Could very well be...if it actually is, how should I handle her? more, less, maybe just leave her alone for a while?

I liked what Jay said as well. But if there haven't been any major changes moving her may or may not help. It doesn't hurt to try though.

If it's in response to her wanting to breed it will go back to normal after she produces follicles and then re absorbes them.

[forza_inter]

So I started thawing her rats in the basement & once they are ready I wait until she manages to get far away from the door so I can quickly drop the rat in. It was going well for a while, she wasn't striking at the glass or going crazy. She would immediately head to the door & start anticipating food. After a few minutes realizing she was right on top of the rat she would begin eating. All was well until this past Monday. I did the same routine, rat was up to temperature, she was at the back of the enclosure, but as soon as I dropped the rat & closed the door, she slammed into it from the back of the enclosure & didn't repeatedly strike, she just kind of kept her mouth pressed against the door, pushing against it, going crazy. After she recoiled she kept adjusting her jaw & I got worried she hurt herself. But she seemed ok shortly after & ate... I dunno guys, she's crazy

[Snakesitter]

So long as she was not hurt.....!

[forza_inter]

She seems fine, but I was extremely concerned when she kept adjusting her jaw. I kept watch from the door, I didn't go into the room and risk setting her off again. She did it for a few minutes, then she stopped and ate the rat. Even as I type this shes staring at me from the corner of the door, in full "feed me" mode (she ate 5 days ago)

I'm thinking of going to jumbo sized rats (she takes down the large with no problem)