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Tiny Boidae
08-09-15, 09:47 AM
Alright, so we all are tempted to feed our garter snakes and water dragons a fish or two from time to time, and for good reason. A varied diet is mentally and nutritionally superior to your run-of-the-mill crickets and mealworms, but as I've come to find, very little research has been made of the nutritional content of the whole bodies of these fish. Most of what I could find was for the human tidbits in the muscle, which was only a scrap of the information I needed. As such, I did a little bit of digging to give a more accurate nutritional makeup for freshwater fish.

Disclaimer: All of my sources (unless otherwise stated) come from "Nutrition and Feeding of Fish" by Tom Lovell, which conducted studies on channel catfish, trout and salmon, carp, and the eel. This book was published in 1998 and is, by no means, anymore than a guide. This was the best source of information for me, and for those without access to this book, I paraphrase if here. My hope is that we can gain enough interest to do some tests on the detailed nutritional content on common feeder fish such as guppies and minnows, which are often recommended as feeders. Many people go on to claim that these are "nutrionally superior" to goldfish and rosy reds without ever providing evidence to support this claim.


Calcium and Phosphorus

Let's start with the meat and potatoes of meal time: the calcium and phosphorus content. A great majority of the calcium and phosphorus can be found in not only the bone tissue of fish (duh) but also in the scales. That being said, fish absorb most of their minerals through the water so if you were to gutload your guppies calcium, the most effective way to do it is to dissolve calcium in the aquarium water.

On page 64 of Lovell's book, he discusses the calcium content very briefly, yet still manages to sum it up quite nicely for us in layman's terms. Channel Catfish contain a calcium-to-phosphorus ratio of 0.7 : 1.6, which can rule out fish as a main food source. (Exact paragraph: "Most of the calcium in the fish body, perhaps 99% of it, is in skeletal tissue and scales. Up to 20% to 40% of the total calcium is in scales. During fasting, calcium is resorbed through the hard tissue for physiological functions. The percentage of calcium in the whole, fresh (wet) bodies of finfish ranges from 0.5% to 1% with a ratio of calcium to phosphorus of 0.7 : 1.6.")

Alright, so it's generally a bad idea to feed a lot of fish in your animal's diet, but it must have some redeeming qualities? Maybe a vital nutrient that other food sources lack, yet still proves vital to the health of your animal?



Protein

Whole prey is a good source of protein all-around, but for the most part we tend to want to avoid an excessive amount. This is due to the fact that this type of diet can lead to gout, a serious condition due to dietary problems. The average amount of crude protein in the domnesticated adult mouse (according to Rodentpro) is about 55.8%, rather high, don't you think? Well, a study conducted at Harvard suggested that 6 ounces of wild salmon had about 34 grams of protein, or about 20% protein content.

Obviously fish is lower in protein content than mice, but not necessarily better. One mouse serves the same amount of protein as three fish, which might be better for those worrying about gout, although it won't give a carnivore its necessary amount of protein alone.


Fat Content

How do fish fare as far as the fat content within them? Well, according to Lovell, the total fat content in the tissue of uncooked channel catfish averaged at 8.6%, while sea-caught salmon averaged at 1.5%. The adult mouse, according to Rodentpro, averages at 23.6% in fat content. Obviously, fish are a better option here in regards to fat content.



Vitamin A

I've heard that fish is high in vitamin A, which is a small concern for some that dread overdoing it with vitamin a. Skimming through George Borgstrom's book, Fish As Food V2: Nutrition, Sanitation, and Utilization, I've found a nice piece of data to work with. Most of the vitamin a in the bodies of fish is stored in the liver, while a close second is the digestive tract of these animals. Freshwater fish, such as Mountain Whitefish, has a higher content of Vitamin A than brackish fish that are commonly used as feeders. Whitefish, for example, have a total amount of 63800 IU in their bodies, while Chinook Salmon has an average total of 53500 IU. Compare that to the 578,272 IU vitamin A content of the adult mouse, and even then the brackish fish would have a lower amount of vitamin a. This would probably make guppies, platies, and mollies (with beta-carotene supplements) a better alternative to purely freshwater fish, such as goldfish and minnows.



Vitamin D

Another vitamin that I hear a lot of in fish is Vitamin D3, an important factor in the absorption of calcium into the body. Every 3.5oz of salmon would result in a Vitamin D content of about 400 IU. Granted, salmon is particularly high in vitamin D compared to most fish, yet most fish are still a good source of this vitamin.



Conclusion

There we go, a guide to help the average keeper add a bit of variety and nutrition into their reptile's diet. By no means do I claim that the fish commonly fed to reptiles, such as goldfish or guppies, follow these numbers or percentages exactly, but rather they help to outline the nutritional content of fish overall. Fish are a healthy treat for semi-aquatic or aquatic reptiles that normally prey on them in the wild, but I do not think that these should be made a staple. They have a low calcium to phosphorus ratio, and unless you breed the fish yourself, they're likely to be swimming in diseases and parasites. I do believe, however, in the right circumstances they can be fed occasionally as they are healthy in most other regards, and can enrich your animal's diet as they provide variety that most don't offer.

(I did, originally, post this on ReptileBoards. However, I've come to realize that the site is mostly dead and as such have decided to post it here as well).

Albert Clark
08-09-15, 10:10 AM
Thanks so much for sharing that informative post.

Tiny Boidae
08-09-15, 10:39 AM
Albert-

No problem. I really do like to feed my animals as much variety as possible, but what scares me is not knowing the nutritional makeup of it. For all you know, you're harming your animal's health slowly by feeding them certain food items on a regular basis. I have several aquatic species in my home, and once you get them weaned onto fish, most of them go crazy for these healthy treats.

Aaron_S
08-09-15, 10:55 AM
What species of fish do you use?

Tiny Boidae
08-09-15, 11:22 AM
Aaron_S-

I breed my own fancy guppies for the purpose of food, simply because these guys won't give my animal's much trouble in regards to size, although there are a lot more options. Two other popular choices are platies and mollies, although they might be too big for young or small animals. If you plan to breed them like I do, just make sure you choose livebearers such as those. It's a lot more difficult to breed minnows and goldfish than guppies and platies.

Aaron_S
08-09-15, 01:31 PM
Aaron_S-

I breed my own fancy guppies for the purpose of food, simply because these guys won't give my animal's much trouble in regards to size, although there are a lot more options. Two other popular choices are platies and mollies, although they might be too big for young or small animals. If you plan to breed them like I do, just make sure you choose livebearers such as those. It's a lot more difficult to breed minnows and goldfish than guppies and platies.

I don't plan to breed them as I don't have animals that I'd feed them too.

I asked because goldfsh is a horrid choice of feeder due to an enzyme called thiaminase. Same with rosy red minnows.

Your other choices are better.

Tiny Boidae
08-09-15, 01:37 PM
Aaron_S-

There's too many problems with goldfish as feeders. I love em as pets, but most people won't be able to deal with their potentially large size, large bio-load, and nutritional issues they present. I wasn't suggesting them as feeders in the slightest, nor rosy reds, but rather throwing in another reason why they do not make good feeders.

Aaron_S
08-09-15, 03:00 PM
Aaron_S-

There's too many problems with goldfish as feeders. I love em as pets, but most people won't be able to deal with their potentially large size, large bio-load, and nutritional issues they present. I wasn't suggesting them as feeders in the slightest, nor rosy reds, but rather throwing in another reason why they do not make good feeders.

I'm sorry. I think we've had a miscommunication and it's my fault.

I didn't mean to think you were suggesting them in the least. I like to put out there for all the readers to be aware of these fish as feeders for their own animals due to that one enzyme.

Otherwise, you and I are on the same page.

Tiny Boidae
08-09-15, 03:29 PM
Aaron_s-

My apologies then, it takes two to tango so to speak.

There are many better options out there, most of them being brackish. It's in most people's best interest to stay away from freshwater and saltwater feeders as freshwater generally is loaded with an undesirable amount of nutrients and fat content, while saltwater is obviously way too salty to be healthy (it's like drenching your noodles in soy sauce- you're going to be dehydrated for a while). The best option, IMO, is brackish fish as they have the best of both worlds. While they're nutritionally superior to freshwater, they don't contain nearly as much of the salt content as Nemo. I generally mix about a tablespoon per ten gallons for my brackish fish, and then wean them onto purely freshwater a few weeks before slaughter.

jarich
08-09-15, 04:20 PM
A good start, though there are a few things that can be considered here.

First, fish, like most feeder animals, show improved nutritional content when fed a diet of good nutrition themselves. So like insects and other feeder prey, if you want to increase their nutritional value, gut load them 24-48 hours before feeding them to the snake.

Second, catfish are an especially poor indicator of nutrition for feeder fish in general. Catfish are a bottom feeding, omnivorous, bulky fleshed fish. They are higher in saturated fats than most, and fairly closely resemble their other, not-so-good-nutritional cousins, the goldfish. Most importantly, catfish do not have scales. Comparing a catfish, with its large body, lots of 'meat' and no scales to the guppy or other small fish that are usually used in feeding gives a fairly skewed measurement. In other words, the Ca:P ratio will immediately be vastly different compared to a small bodied, thin, scaled fish.

Third, protein is never a nutritional consideration when speaking of live whole prey feeder items. Any live whole prey item contains more than the nutritional requirements of protein for any carnivore. Any diet that contains more than 30% protein is considered an extremely high protein diet. The excess is just a matter of more processing, and as protein digestion requires a great deal of water, comparatively speaking, this is one of the reasons why often dehydrated reptiles fed a carnivorous diet develop gout and other organ diseases.

Having said all that, it is important to discuss these things and especially the reason for keeping variety in the diet. You mentioned some of the various nutrient differences above, but there is also fatty acid profile (a major difference between fish and red meat feeders), amino acid profiles, as well as other vitamins and mineral. Here are some other helpful links:

Aquarium Invertebrates: Nutritional Value Of Live Foods For The Coral Reef Aquarium, Part 1 — Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/12/inverts) (scroll down to the fish)

http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Torben_Larsen2/publication/12571834_Whole_small_fish_as_a_rich_calcium_source/links/0a85e52eb7bcf6a8c1000000.pdf

http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jose_Luiz_Attayde/publication/227698088_Nitrogen_and_phosphorus_content_of_some_ temperate_and_tropical_freshwater_fishes/links/0deec537def3482d65000000.pdf

The content and nutritional significance of minerals on fish flesh in the presence and absence of bone (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308814600001977)

Tiny Boidae
08-09-15, 04:52 PM
Jarich-

(I'm surprised you found that many links. I had been working on that for a while and found myself hard pressed to find what I did. Not to mention before deciding to come up with that, I couldn't find much of what I needed regardless).

I know I missed some things, so I have to thank you for helping here.

1. I understand that I did not include gutloading these animals as I probably should have, slipped my mind entirely. I feed mine brine shrimp as well as fish flakes on occasion, and am currently experimenting with the whole "dissolve calcium in water" as Lovell had brought up.

2. Catfish were the main focus of the book, and Lovell simply hadn't mentioned many others when speaking of nutritional content (I also didn't know they were scaleless... The more you know). I knew that they were probably a little heavy in fat content, but I was unaware of how nutritionally off they are in comparison to other fish.

3. It's still good to know the protein content in an animal. I said that they were lower in protein, but also that while it might be good for those concerned about gout, that it wasn't necessarily a good thing. I had links that would help support this argument, but since I didn't have enough posts I couldn't provide the URLs. According to this: Nutrition in Reptiles: Nutrition: Exotic and Zoo Animals: Merck Veterinary Manual (http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/management_and_nutrition/nutrition_exotic_and_zoo_animals/nutrition_in_reptiles.html)

A very clear chart provides that carnivorous reptiles need 30-50% protein in their diet, and if you fed them fish as a staple and only one or two a feeding, they would not be getting enough protein to stay healthy. So, while I do agree protein is not something that most generally should be concerned with, it's still good to know what the animal's needs are nutritionally vs what the prey is providing them.

One more thing, I never claimed that these were the exact numbers for guppies or such. I actually wrote in the disclaimer the opposite. I understood that there would be variations between species, but very little research is done and then made easily available regarding the nutritional makeup of guppies, so I used what I had available to try and make an educated decision.

I'm sorry if this came out rude or aggressive, it's not meant to be as I really do appreciate constructive criticism. I also have to thank you for those links. I've read the first one but none of the others. I'm no nutritional expert, so of course I missed a few like you mentioned, but the more advances we make with nutrition in our reptiles, the healthier and longer-lived they'll be.

jarich
08-10-15, 12:06 AM
Actually, my apologies, after re-reading my post I feel like I probably came off a bit aggressive myself. Not my intention, sorry about that. I'm glad you collected the research you did and started the conversation. It's always good to get people thinking about it. I think I've got a few more articles I'll post when I can.

Tiny Boidae
08-10-15, 08:24 AM
Jarich-

I didn't take it as such, it's just when I was writing what I did I thought it to be a little more pushy than it actually was. I don't want to give people wrong information, so I'm glad that you pointed out what you did.

Nutrition is a lot more important than what most people give it credit for, and it makes a world of a difference between a corn snake who's still going strong in his twenties, and a corn snake who barely made the average lifespan. It helps a lot to be aware of the specific nutrients in prey, and then to compare that to what your animal needs, and that's something that is rarely brought up.

toddnbecka
08-10-15, 11:46 PM
There are many better options out there, most of them being brackish. It's in most people's best interest to stay away from freshwater and saltwater feeders as freshwater generally is loaded with an undesirable amount of nutrients and fat content, while saltwater is obviously way too salty to be healthy (it's like drenching your noodles in soy sauce- you're going to be dehydrated for a while). The best option, IMO, is brackish fish as they have the best of both worlds. While they're nutritionally superior to freshwater, they don't contain nearly as much of the salt content as Nemo. I generally mix about a tablespoon per ten gallons for my brackish fish, and then wean them onto purely freshwater a few weeks before slaughter.

Saltwater fish don't contain a higher amount of salt than freshwater fish. Their physiology is simply geared to a different osmoregulatory level. Mollies can actually live just fine in full salt water, brackish, or freshwater. Their internal composition is the same regardless of the water they live in.
Regarding mineral content, are you saying that fish that live in hard water would contain more nutrients than soft water species because they absorb more from their environment?

Tiny Boidae
08-11-15, 08:55 AM
Toddnbecka-

You're right, interesting to know but I still wouldn't recommend saltwater feeders. I keep fish as pets as well, and saltwater is way harder and more expensive to maintain than freshwater.

Oh I know that mollies can live in all of those environments, but they seem to do a bit better with a slight amount of salt. Not sure if this applies to them, but some fish also will only breed in salt/freshwater. I used to have a pet Molly in my freshwater community tank, great personality. He was the only fish that would eat out of my hand and he'd also follow you around in the tank. But regardless, he was healthy in freshwater so they don't necessarily need salt to prosper.

As for nutrients, let me refer back to Borgstrom's book:

I averaged together the amount of vitamin a in saltwater fish was almost 400,000 IU in the liver, while in freshwater it was 42700 IU in the liver. That's a large difference in and of itself, and I could probably pull together several other examples.

Seafood Nutrition Chart (http://www.dirksfish.com/nuchart1.htm)

Here explains the protein fat and sodium. I'm going to be looking purely at the low fat fish for this one.

Saltwater fish, on average, have 35 grams of protein. Freshwater fish, on average, is 37.4. "Well Little Boidae" you say "that isn't a huge difference" No, it's not, but the percentage of fatty freshwater fish vs saltwater is. According to this chart, 55.55% of the saltwater fish contain low fat contents, while 40% of freshwater fish have low fat. It can then be assumed that most saltwater fish will have a lower fat content than most freshwater.

For sodium content, saltwater fish, on average, had 171.85 milligrams of sodium, while freshwater fish had 175.5. So I was wrong about salt content, but saltwater still seems to be more lean and full of nutrients than freshwater.

jarich
08-12-15, 10:16 AM
Knew I had more somewhere. Here are a few more articles that you might find interesting...

http://nagonline.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/NAG-FS005-97-Fish-JONI-FEB-24-2002-MODIFIED.pdf

Internet Scientific Publications (http://ispub.com/IJVM/10/1/1582)

http://www.otterspecialistgroup.org/Library/TaskForces/OCT/Otter_Nutrition_2012.pdf

https://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_welfare/downloads/marine_mammals/mmfish.pdf

Retinol and []-tocopherol concentrations in whole fish commonly fed in zoos and aquariums - Dierenfeld - 2005 - Zoo Biology - Wiley Online Library (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/zoo.1430100204/abstract)