Rat breeding - no idea what to do, please help

[sophiedufort]

With eight snakes at home and no feeder mice supplier within 30 miles, I must consider breeding rats. I am not sure what to do though. I tried to breed mice before, one of the females had a litter, then I found her dead one day, when the pinkies were about to turn into fuzzies. Then the other female died, followed by the male. I have no clue why. Their enclosure was clean, fresh bedding, food and water. Since, I keep buying mice from that far away store, and one dies every now and then - no apparent reason.
I would like to breed rats, but I am not sure how to optimize it. My supplier sells small, medium, large and extra large rats. Which ones are of mating age? How many do I buy, to make sure that I have a continuous supply of rat puppies, but not overdo it? My snakes eat once a week. The 4 smallest need rat puppies, another 2 would be happy with rat babies that have just opened their eyes, and my 3 largest snakes would take small to medium rats.
Any advice to get me started would be greatly appreciated.

[Minkness]

Could probably do a 1.3 ratio. Breeding age is about 12 weeks old I believe but some suggest waiting until 16 weeks old.

I am looking at adding rats to my feeder breeders as well, and the person I am looking into buying from breeds high end pet quality and their cages are actually tubs that she cut squares into the sides and added some kind of wire for ventalation. I will probably be doing this for my trio as well.

As far as care goes. I've had pet rats before. It's pretty straight forward.

Clean water, food (store bought is fine. But try to get something with little to no corn in it). You can offer fresh vegies and fruites as treats, and supliment their protine (for breeding and to help prevent litter canabalism) with cat food. I don't know if the type of catfood matters, but I feed a fish based kibble that's medium/high quality since that's what my cats eat.

In my opinion, they should also experience handling, exersize, and be provided with toys. Since rats are smarter than mice, this just seems nicer than the simple food, water, and clean bedding.

As for bedding. Use aspen or that paper stuff. To help against mites freez or bake the bedding first. (I prefer freezing for about 6 hours) Mites can kill your whole colony and by the time you see them, it's too late. They can't transfer to snakes, but they are terrible on mice/rats.

Oh, and when a littler is born, it's good to have them in a non drafty, warm place, or privide them with a uth to help prevent RIs in the babies.

Good luck!

[sophiedufort]

Could probably do a 1.3 ratio. Breeding age is about 12 weeks old I believe but some suggest waiting until 16 weeks old.

I am looking at adding rats to my feeder breeders as well, and the person I am looking into buying from breeds high end pet quality and their cages are actually tubs that she cut squares into the sides and added some kind of wire for ventalation. I will probably be doing this for my trio as well.

As far as care goes. I've had pet rats before. It's pretty straight forward.

Clean water, food (store bought is fine. But try to get something with little to no corn in it). You can offer fresh vegies and fruites as treats, and supliment their protine (for breeding and to help prevent litter canabalism) with cat food. I don't know if the type of catfood matters, but I feed a fish based kibble that's medium/high quality since that's what my cats eat.

In my opinion, they should also experience handling, exersize, and be provided with toys. Since rats are smarter than mice, this just seems nicer than the simple food, water, and clean bedding.

As for bedding. Use aspen or that paper stuff. To help against mites freez or bake the bedding first. (I prefer freezing for about 6 hours) Mites can kill your whole colony and by the time you see them, it's too late. They can't transfer to snakes, but they are terrible on mice/rats.

Oh, and when a littler is born, it's good to have them in a non drafty, warm place, or privide them with a uth to help prevent RIs in the babies.

Good luck!
Thank you.
I didn't know about mites in bedding. Will freeze it from now on.

[MDT]

Why wouldn't you just buy frozen in bulk and feed frozen/thawed? A lot less hassel and a lot less stink.

[Minkness]

I agree with MDT lol.

I just love rats so the stink is kinda worth it. Also, for me, person I live with, doesn't wanthslf the freezer full of rodents. We have a small freezer to begin with and no space for a wtand alone. Sooooo....going to stuff another bin/cage somewhere in ky room, add pet rats, and benifit from their babies lol.

That's just me though. Honestly, I'd have rats as pets anyway, so breeding them isn't that big of a deal for me.

=)

[EL Ziggy]

I agree with the others about buying f/t in bulk. It's a lot less complicated.

[prairiepanda]

I would also suggest buying bulk f/t. Get a mini freezer just for the rodents if you need to. Being in the US, you have loads of options for suppliers of bulk f/t feeders.

But if you're really determined to breed your own stock, I would actually recommend gerbils. I have no experience with rats(grew up in Alberta), but I have bred gerbils and mice and have found gerbils to be the easiest by far. Plus, gerbils get larger than mice but not as large as rats, so they can provide larger meals without having the huge space requirements of rats. Gerbils are very cooperative with each other when it comes to raising young, so mothers always have help and support to keep them going strong. Also, they are much easier to sex as babies than mice are, so they're easy to sort. The time between copulation and birth is usually about 3 to 4 weeks, and if given the opportunity they can birth another litter 4 to 5 weeks after that, so they pump out babies fast. My average litter was 7 pups, with my smallest litter being only 4 and my largest being 11. They grow quite quickly, reaching their full size in around 5 months. But watch out; they will breed as young as 3 months so be sure to separate your genders(males do great in groups of any size, but females should be kept 2 or 3 to a cage to prevent fighting).

When I first got started breeding my gerbils, I left the male in with the female to help raise the first litter. Of course they bred again shortly after birth, but that's okay. Once the first litter started opening their eyes, I moved the male to another female's cage. When the second litter arrived, I left one female from the first litter with her mother to help care for the new litter. That daughter would help her mom with all future litters, until the mom retired and the daughter became a breeder herself, having plenty of experience raising young. Male breeders will produce pretty much as long as they live(3 to 5 years). Female breeders will produce pups for around 2 years, but after the first 2 litters I gave them each 6 month breaks after each litter. I was breeding for colours and patterns, though, rather than for food. You can give them a 2 month break instead and not have any negative effects on the outcome of breeding.

If that's something that interests you, I'd be happy to give you more details and figure out what kind of starting group would be best to feed all your snakes.

[sophiedufort]

I would also suggest buying bulk f/t. Get a mini freezer just for the rodents if you need to. Being in the US, you have loads of options for suppliers of bulk f/t feeders.

But if you're really determined to breed your own stock, I would actually recommend gerbils. I have no experience with rats(grew up in Alberta), but I have bred gerbils and mice and have found gerbils to be the easiest by far. Plus, gerbils get larger than mice but not as large as rats, so they can provide larger meals without having the huge space requirements of rats. Gerbils are very cooperative with each other when it comes to raising young, so mothers always have help and support to keep them going strong. Also, they are much easier to sex as babies than mice are, so they're easy to sort. The time between copulation and birth is usually about 3 to 4 weeks, and if given the opportunity they can birth another litter 4 to 5 weeks after that, so they pump out babies fast. My average litter was 7 pups, with my smallest litter being only 4 and my largest being 11. They grow quite quickly, reaching their full size in around 5 months. But watch out; they will breed as young as 3 months so be sure to separate your genders(males do great in groups of any size, but females should be kept 2 or 3 to a cage to prevent fighting).

When I first got started breeding my gerbils, I left the male in with the female to help raise the first litter. Of course they bred again shortly after birth, but that's okay. Once the first litter started opening their eyes, I moved the male to another female's cage. When the second litter arrived, I left one female from the first litter with her mother to help care for the new litter. That daughter would help her mom with all future litters, until the mom retired and the daughter became a breeder herself, having plenty of experience raising young. Male breeders will produce pretty much as long as they live(3 to 5 years). Female breeders will produce pups for around 2 years, but after the first 2 litters I gave them each 6 month breaks after each litter. I was breeding for colours and patterns, though, rather than for food. You can give them a 2 month break instead and not have any negative effects on the outcome of breeding.

If that's something that interests you, I'd be happy to give you more details and figure out what kind of starting group would be best to feed all your snakes.

Thank you, I think it's a great idea, and I will get started as soon as I can find some gerbils. The reason I want to breed mice, rats or gerbils is that my snakes love live prey, and are very fussy when it comes to frozen/thawed food. I have plenty of space for breeding, even rats, so this is not something that worries me. So, should I start with a male and two females?

[sophiedufort]

If that's something that interests you, I'd be happy to give you more details and figure out what kind of starting group would be best to feed all your snakes.

Hello again. I just got myself nine gerbils (two generations), free off Craigslist. What now? I separated adults from babies, looked up how to sex them, but I can't figure it out. Please help.

Also, can I feed them mice food? I have a ton of it.

Many thanks.

[prairiepanda]

If you post pictures of all their "butts" I can sex them in a snap and edit your photos to point out what exactly what I'm looking at, if you'd like. The surest way to determine sex in gerbils of any age is by looking at the distance between the anus and urethra(two holes on their butts); on females, they are right next to each other, but in males there is a space in between. They're perfectly fine eating mouse food. When you run out of that, I found that rat food tends to be better formulated for gerbils than hamster/gerbil food is, as it provides more protein and fat. Breeding females benefit from a bit of extra protein too. I gave them a kibble of cat food each day to satisfy this, but peanuts or insects would work too.

[AlexCrazy]

If you post pictures of all their "butts" I can sex them in a snap and edit your photos to point out what exactly what I'm looking at, if you'd like..
LOL! there BUTTS! hahaha my dad got a fright wen i craked up laughfing! hahaha
I have a hamster.. and i guesst its a male cos he has balls..haha
Or am i rong? haha he was helen.. then i had to change! LOL

[sophiedufort]

If you post pictures of all their "butts" I can sex them in a snap and edit your photos to point out what exactly what I'm looking at, if you'd like. The surest way to determine sex in gerbils of any age is by looking at the distance between the anus and urethra(two holes on their butts); on females, they are right next to each other, but in males there is a space in between. They're perfectly fine eating mouse food. When you run out of that, I found that rat food tends to be better formulated for gerbils than hamster/gerbil food is, as it provides more protein and fat. Breeding females benefit from a bit of extra protein too. I gave them a kibble of cat food each day to satisfy this, but peanuts or insects would work too.

Lol, that was too funny :D
The problem is that by the time I finish taking pictures of nine butts, I will mix them again. I will try to figure out based on the distance. There are six adults and three babies. Maybe I should keep all adults in one place, and whatever happens, happens. If I get fifty babies after that, I will turn my snakes into obese creatures. Just joking.

[AlexCrazy]

LOOOOL! hahahaha
you could place like a paper with a number and take the photo.. so you know who is who.. and.. I dont know.. paint a dot on them some how to get it too..

[prairiepanda]

The adults should be pretty obvious because the males have balls. Note that the balls on gerbils aren't as big as on hamsters or mice, though. They are obvious, though, compared to the females.

On very young gerbils(first week or two), the spacing between the anus and urethra is less apparent, but with practice you can certainly tell between genders even on fresh pinkies with this method. Nipples will also be visible on females, until their fur starts to get too long to see through. Here are some helpful pictures I found(not mine):
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f275/kimsgerbils3/Gerbs/sexingpups2.jpg
Hard to see the anus on the male above, but you can see on the female that the anus and urethra are right next to each other, and her nipples are visible still.

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/Shootingstar_gerbils/litters/side-by-side2_small-jpg.jpg
This one isn't labelled very well, so it might be a bit confusing. But the space between the two holes on the male is almost twice as long as on the female.

The older they get, the more obvious the spacing difference becomes.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b370/kimsgerbils2/Misc/3weeksexing.jpg
The gerbils above are about 3 weeks old, so still very young, but the difference is much easier to see.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b370/kimsgerbils2/Gerbils/SexingGerbils.jpg
These ones are adults, or close to it(the female looks pretty small; normally the females get a bit larger than males) You can see the space on this adult male is very long, and he's got his testicles.
EDIT: You can also see the "bald patch" on the male's tummy; this where his scent glands are, and you'll often see gerbils rubbing their tummies on things or doing an "alligator crawl" to put their scent on things that they own. The bald patch can be quite pronounced on males, but it's rarely visible on females.

Hope this helps!

[sophiedufort]

Hope this helps!

This was very helpful. Thank you so much! I will update you later on today.

[Aaron_S]

Thank you, I think it's a great idea, and I will get started as soon as I can find some gerbils. The reason I want to breed mice, rats or gerbils is that my snakes love live prey, and are very fussy when it comes to frozen/thawed food. I have plenty of space for breeding, even rats, so this is not something that worries me. So, should I start with a male and two females?

All snakes "love" live prey. They are predators. It's food to them.

If you fed in the enclosure you'd see more interest in f/t prey.

Lastly, for the safety of the animals you should deal with the "fussiness" of them if they will eat frozen thawed. You don't want any missing eyes or injuries.

[Minkness]

You realize that this is a loosing argument, right Aaron? lol

Also, jeezus. Starting with NINE rodents?! I felt almost overwhelmed with my 3 mice! Good luck with those.

[sophiedufort]

You realize that this is a loosing argument, right Aaron? lol

Also, jeezus. Starting with NINE rodents?! I felt almost overwhelmed with my 3 mice! Good luck with those.

:) I have eight snakes, Minkness. Gotta feed them all, so I need heaps of feeders.

[Minkness]

I guess. Just make sure you stagger the breeding out a bit so you don't have a huge boom and all the same size.

[MDT]

All snakes "love" live prey. They are predators. It's food to them.

If you fed in the enclosure you'd see more interest in f/t prey.

Lastly, for the safety of the animals you should deal with the "fussiness" of them if they will eat frozen thawed. You don't want any missing eyes or injuries.

yep..........

[sophiedufort]

I guess. Just make sure you stagger the breeding out a bit so you don't have a huge boom and all the same size.

Just found a guy on Craigslist who sells really cheap live feeders. No more driving 30+ miles. I guess that the gerbils will disappear one by one well before they manage to make babies. It's cheaper to buy from that guy, and a lot less work.

[pet_snake_78]

I generally have good luck with f/t but I've had young snakes that would not eat anything other than live and others whose food strike could only be broken by live food. However, to date all animals have eventually taken f/t and stuck with it.. can be very frustrating because I don't like keeping mice around for one or two picky eaters but what can ya do.