Morph/species related illness?

[DDW]

I was just having a conversation with my mom about breeding for particular looks in animals having a part in some of their diseases, illnesses, arthritis and such (like hip dysplasia in some larger dogs ect. which is why my mom likes mutts) is there anything like this with reptiles? Things that happen because humans breed the herps to get them look a certain way, like the scale-less snakes or bearded dragons. Or albinos. These animal typically wouldn't make it in the wild because a natural barrier or camouflage has been taken away (which I am cool with as long as they are kept in captivity) but is there anything associated with these conditions in captivity (like more likely to have cancer ect.) Or is it still too early to say?

I'm just curious and I'm greatful for any replies ^.=.^

[SSSSnakes]

Head wobble in Spider Balls.

[DDW]

Head wobble in Spider Balls.

Hmm, I think I've heard of this once. Does it effect the health or does it just make it a bit more clumsy than a regular bp?

[SSSSnakes]

Hmm, I think I've heard of this once. Does it effect the health or does it just make it a bit more clumsy than a regular bp?

It depends on how severe it is. It can cause the snake to not be able to eat on it's own.

[DDW]

It depends on how severe it is. It can cause the snake to not be able to eat on it's own.

Wow, sounds like some kind of brain damage.

[Sylphie]

And stargazer in corn snakes.

[DDW]

And stargazer in corn snakes.

I didn't know this was corn snake specific. The thought that had to do with injuries in the spine and compromised nervous systems. Hmm. Interesting.

[Sylphie]

DDW, I'm not 100% sure if this is only in corn snakes, I'm talking about that "Stargazer is a gene that causes the animal to appear to be star gazing. Stargazing is a deviation in the bodys balance, as a result of which the animals makes uncontrolled movements. It is made worse in stressful situations." (copied from iansvivarium.com) It's rather neurological, not from injures.

[DDW]

DDW, I'm not 100% sure if this is only in corn snakes, I'm talking about that "Stargazer is a gene that causes the animal to appear to be star gazing. Stargazing is a deviation in the bodys balance, as a result of which the animals makes uncontrolled movements. It is made worse in stressful situations." (copied from iansvivarium.com) It's rather neurological, not from injures.

Okay, I just read this: Star-Gazing: A Sign, Not a Disease. (http://anapsid.org/stargaze.html) this seems similar, though this says nothing about genes, but this is interestong. I understand that it has to do with a compromised nervous system overall right?
(Just read the article that you just took the quote from , I understand^.=.^)

[Minkness]

Stargazing can happen in almost any kind of animal. For instance, it happens in enigma morph leos.

Wobble head does have different levels of severity however. My lesserbee has a super mildwobble when he gets upset, excited, or tries too hard to focus on something. This has not caused him any bit of clumsiness that I have noticed and he eats like a champ (when he eats...) the strangest thing is does is turn his head upside down when investigating something new. He is also pretty headshy, though not sure if that'shim being a BP or having a wobble.

Hope this helps!

[DDW]

Thanks Mink for explaining:)

[Albert Clark]

Some of the supers in bp's are prone to severe birth defects as well. Like the super cinnys who have duckbilling and spinal kinks. The super lesser and super butters who get bug eyes. I know the combo of a spider to a champagne is lethal. Either the eggs dont hatch and or the hatchlings that do emerge from the egg don't survive. Sad.

[lady_bug87]

Bearded dragons are so inbred that a lot of them die waay earlier than they should.

[DDW]

Some of the supers in bp's are prone to severe birth defects as well. Like the super cinnys who have duckbilling and spinal kinks. The super lesser and super butters who get bug eyes. I know the combo of a spider to a champagne is lethal. Either the eggs dont hatch and or the hatchlings that do emerge from the egg don't survive. Sad.

Wow... Very sad, seems like the more recessive genes are brought out to get "cool" looking animals, the bad stuff is enhanced, very similar to the effects of inbreeding in other animals it seems. Makes the gene pool so shallow :/ There is a reason some traits are recessive. (Btw, what is duckbilling?)

[DDW]

Bearded dragons are so inbred that a lot of them die waay earlier than they should.

Makes sense, bearded dragons are so popular, everyone wants one, so irresponsible breeders breed them so much, it ends up being like a puppy mill. So instead of getting a quality animal, you get an animal with compromised health of some sort.

[lady_bug87]

Wow... Very sad, seems like the more recessive genes are brought out to get "cool" looking animals, the bad stuff is enhanced, very similar to the effects of inbreeding in other animals it seems. Makes the gene pool so shallow :/ There is a reason some traits are recessive. (Btw, what is duckbilling?)

It's a mouth deformity

[DDW]

It's a mouth deformity

Oh, okay thx

[yeloowtang]

here's a list hard to find of known issues..

Spider Wobble
Woma Wobble
Hidden Gene Woma Wobble
Champagne Wobble
Super Sable Wobble
Powerball Wobble
Sable x Spider Difficult to hatch, severe wobble
Champagne x Hidden Gene Woma Severe wobble
Champagne x Spider Lethal
Pearl Normally Lethal
Super Champagne Lethal
Desert Female fertility issues
Caramel Albino Kinking and female sub-fertility
Super Cinnamon/Super Black Pastel Duckbill & rare kinking
Super Lesser Platinum/Super Butter Bug eyes
Lesser Platinum x Piedbald Small Eyes
Banana/Coral Glow Males produce weird sex ratios
Homozygous Spider Mysteriously non-existent

[DDW]

here's a list hard to find of known issues..

Spider Wobble
Woma Wobble
Hidden Gene Woma Wobble
Champagne Wobble
Super Sable Wobble
Powerball Wobble
Sable x Spider Difficult to hatch, severe wobble
Champagne x Hidden Gene Woma Severe wobble
Champagne x Spider Lethal
Pearl Normally Lethal
Super Champagne Lethal
Desert Female fertility issues
Caramel Albino Kinking and female sub-fertility
Super Cinnamon/Super Black Pastel Duckbill & rare kinking
Super Lesser Platinum/Super Butter Bug eyes
Lesser Platinum x Piedbald Small Eyes
Banana/Coral Glow Males produce weird sex ratios
Homozygous Spider Mysteriously non-existent

Wow that's a lot! Thanks for the list.

[lady_bug87]

here's a list hard to find of known issues..

Spider Wobble
Woma Wobble
Hidden Gene Woma Wobble
Champagne Wobble
Super Sable Wobble
Powerball Wobble
Sable x Spider Difficult to hatch, severe wobble
Champagne x Hidden Gene Woma Severe wobble
Champagne x Spider Lethal
Pearl Normally Lethal
Super Champagne Lethal
Desert Female fertility issues
Caramel Albino Kinking and female sub-fertility
Super Cinnamon/Super Black Pastel Duckbill & rare kinking
Super Lesser Platinum/Super Butter Bug eyes
Lesser Platinum x Piedbald Small Eyes
Banana/Coral Glow Males produce weird sex ratios
Homozygous Spider Mysteriously non-existent

Super spider is lethal I believe.
Some pieds have egg quality issues. Especially if they're not cross bred

[DDW]

Super spider is lethal I believe.
Some pieds have egg quality issues. Especially if they're not cross bred

Hmm, interesting
makes me glad I don't plan to breed anything :/

[DDW]

@lady_bug87 btw, I love your profile pic lol

[yeloowtang]

Super spider is lethal I believe.
Some pieds have egg quality issues. Especially if they're not cross bred

I believe you are corect..

I've only read of one possible case about a super spider, was a completly white snake that didn't survive long.. it's believed to a fluke of luck that one made it out of the egg..only one ever know to exist.
some say that the bad eggs are a result of the super spiders not making it in egg development... but that was something i read a while ago.. maybe more info is out there by now..

same with the desert gene, females are all infertile or they get egg bound and/or die laying slugs.. one person said he had succeded in breeding a female but never came forth with any proof about it..
other believe that because the male can breed it's ok to do so !!!! problem here is that all the babies that result from that breeding, the females are all in the same boat.. they can all die if the unknowing buyer breeds her.. no matter if it's a pastel desert, mojave desert, pied desert etc etc ,, if it has the desert gene the snake is at risk.. it's a fatal gene..

[Aaron_S]

It depends on how severe it is. It can cause the snake to not be able to eat on it's own.

Never have I seen this. Do you have a source for this? I currently own the spider morph and have produced them. I have never seen the wobble negatively effect the quality of life of a ball python.


here's a list hard to find of known issues..

Spider Wobble
Woma Wobble
Hidden Gene Woma Wobble
Champagne Wobble
Super Sable Wobble
Powerball Wobble
Sable x Spider Difficult to hatch, severe wobble
Champagne x Hidden Gene Woma Severe wobble
Champagne x Spider Lethal
Pearl Normally Lethal
Super Champagne Lethal
Desert Female fertility issues
Caramel Albino Kinking and female sub-fertility
Super Cinnamon/Super Black Pastel Duckbill & rare kinking
Super Lesser Platinum/Super Butter Bug eyes
Lesser Platinum x Piedbald Small Eyes
Banana/Coral Glow Males produce weird sex ratios
Homozygous Spider Mysteriously non-existent

I bolded the ones I want to point out for sure.

1. I have seen many champ and champ crosses. Never seen one wobble as of yet. Where did you hear of this?

2. Super champ has been proven three times. I know of at least one that's thriving.

3. Lots of people have caramels producing. I wouldn't say it's "sub fertility".

4. The pinstripe also doesn't have a homozygous form that we know of. We do know the spider has a "lethal" one.

I would point that for those reading that these are the known issues associated with the morphs. They come part and parcel with the morph and doesn't mean everyone comes out like this. I know Yellowtang that you didn't mean that they do as you comprised just a list of known issues. It's pretty detailed so thanks.

[yeloowtang]

exactly Aareon and thanks for pointing that out. doesn't mean that they will all or at all show these traits..

spider is a good one to explain this..

you can have a spider with no wobble at all, and others with severe wobbles.. one can have none and get it as they get older.. in the absolute worst case scenario.. one would have to position the meal close in front of the snake..
it's not that they don't detect the heat source, they can't seem to aim at it..and strike all over the place going nuts trying to find the rat.. my calibee is like that, more so when a baby and much better now.

a spider with no wobble can put out babies with severe, and one with severe can give babies without... it's a hit and miss.

in all cases, the snakes can live a full life, they just act funny..

as for the ones you pointed out or the whole list for that matter... it's a list that i came accross from an accumilitive know issues with certain genes..
as you said, doesn't mean they will all have it, but known issues that were produced more than once is the reason they are mentionned..

i'm sure there are more to add to the list and will be revealed in the future after $$$ has been made off these snakes..

[Aaron_S]

.... but known issues that were produced more than once is the reason they are mentionned....

This isn't entirely true. Super champ was done once and the animal died shortly leaving the egg in 2013. Everyone then wrote it off as "lethal".

Unfortunately, people are quick to make judgements on a single case instead of waiting it out.

[DDW]

Thank you for all this information y'all have given and gone out of your way to give me this info. I find this very interesting and helpful in knowing what I could get into by buying certain snakes (or any reptiles) in the future.

[Moreau]

Also neurological issues in Jaguar carpet pythons, similar to spider balls.
Super Jaguars (jag to jag) is also a lethal combo, producing Leucistic carpets that don't live.

Super form of motley in Columbian boas is lethal as well. Produces a black snake that does not survive. Central American super motleys however seem to be ok.

[SSSSnakes]

[QUOTE=Aaron_S;964669]Never have I seen this. Do you have a source for this? I currently own the spider morph and have produced them. I have never seen the wobble negatively effect the quality of life of a ball python.

My source is me. Where I work I have had to assisted feed some spiders that had sever head wobble, to the point that they could not control the head and neck to eat. It has happened many times.

[PsychoSnake]

Limburg albino rosy boas are prone to tail kinks.

[lady_bug87]

[QUOTE=Aaron_S;964669]Never have I seen this. Do you have a source for this? I currently own the spider morph and have produced them. I have never seen the wobble negatively effect the quality of life of a ball python.

My source is me. Where I work I have had to assisted feed some spiders that had sever head wobble, to the point that they could not control the head and neck to eat. It has happened many times.



Of course it is. Don't worry the next paragraph isnt for you. It's for general information. Saying that, if your spiders are thusly affected maybe you should (ethically) stop making them.

In MY opinion. The problems associated with wobbles and such get worse when you're not cross breeding. The wobble will always be there but if you aren't adding any new blood its going to get worse. It's all about genetic variability. Really bad wobbles and things like pied infertility (desert is completely different) can 'be alleviated by adding to the "gene pool"

[Aaron_S]

[QUOTE=Aaron_S;964669]Never have I seen this. Do you have a source for this? I currently own the spider morph and have produced them. I have never seen the wobble negatively effect the quality of life of a ball python.

My source is me. Where I work I have had to assisted feed some spiders that had sever head wobble, to the point that they could not control the head and neck to eat. It has happened many times.



If you have pics or videos I'd like to see them. How many snakes in total? How large of a group did they come from?

I've seen hundreds of spiders and haven't seen this issue or ever asked about it by someone. I have a very wobbly one here and she does just fine with similar "control" issues.

[Aaron_S]

[QUOTE=SSSSnakes;964722]

Of course it is. Don't worry the next paragraph isnt for you. It's for general information. Saying that, if your spiders are thusly affected maybe you should (ethically) stop making them.

In MY opinion. The problems associated with wobbles and such get worse when you're not cross breeding. The wobble will always be there but if you aren't adding any new blood its going to get worse. It's all about genetic variability. Really bad wobbles and things like pied infertility (desert is completely different) can 'be alleviated by adding to the "gene pool"

Actually a very good point.

As everyone selectively breeds for blushing, darker blacks, lighter colours, less or more pattern we also inadverently breed the "bad" stuff. Polygenetics at work both good and bad genes.

This is a side note, we can't breed these defects out. They come with whatever conditions make the neat colours and patterns. We can just try to mitigate them a bit.

[lady_bug87]

Yes my darling but we both know that you can further collections/ projects polygenetically without sacrificing quality and gene variability.

Those things are not mutually exclusive

[Aaron_S]

Yes my darling but we both know that you can further collections/ projects polygenetically without sacrificing quality and gene variability.

Those things are not mutually exclusive

True.

I was trying to say we should all be concious of how the good and bad genes work so we can do just as you believe.

[lady_bug87]

True.

I was trying to say we should all be concious of how the good and bad genes work so we can do just as you believe.

True story bro.

[SSSSnakes]

[QUOTE=SSSSnakes;964722]

If you have pics or videos I'd like to see them. How many snakes in total? How large of a group did they come from?

I've seen hundreds of spiders and haven't seen this issue or ever asked about it by someone. I have a very wobbly one here and she does just fine with similar "control" issues.

These snakes that I have dealt with come from my job, were they buy and sell snakes from all different breeders. I personally do not like ball pythons of any kind and I am not a breeder of them. I don't have time to take pictures or videos of snakes I have no interest in. We also have not had any of these snake in a few years.

[lady_bug87]

[QUOTE=Aaron_S;964669]Never have I seen this. Do you have a source for this? I currently own the spider morph and have produced them. I have never seen the wobble negatively effect the quality of life of a ball python.

My source is me. Where I work I have had to assisted feed some spiders that had sever head wobble, to the point that they could not control the head and neck to eat. It has happened many times.


These snakes that I have dealt with come from my job, were they buy and sell snakes from all different breeders. I personally do not like ball pythons of any kind and I am not a breeder of them. I don't have time to take pictures or videos of snakes I have no interest in. We also have not had any of these snake in a few years.





so... it happens "many times" just not in the past few years?

I call BULLDOODIE on you. Big. Fat. Bull. Turds.

[SSSSnakes]

[QUOTE=SSSSnakes;964722]




so... it happens "many times" just not in the past few years?

I call BULLDOODIE on you. Big. Fat. Bull. Turds.

What's your issues? You think I care what you believe?

[Aaron_S]

[QUOTE=Aaron_S;964745]

These snakes that I have dealt with come from my job, were they buy and sell snakes from all different breeders. I personally do not like ball pythons of any kind and I am not a breeder of them. I don't have time to take pictures or videos of snakes I have no interest in. We also have not had any of these snake in a few years.

Well I was asking because I've never heard of or seen such a thing. So I'm always interested in new info.


My experience is different than yours and yes mine also includes animals from multiple breeders. I simply have never experienced a spider ball python that can't eat on it's own. Neither has anyone else I regularly speak with. I've seen similar threads like these on other forums and this has never been brought up.

To each their own experiences.

[MDT]

Also neurological issues in Jaguar carpet pythons, similar to spider balls.
Super Jaguars (jag to jag) is also a lethal combo, producing Leucistic carpets that don't live.

The infamous jag neuro weirdness....
http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh572/mtucker66/Jagtard_zpshmafqgep.jpg (http://s1252.photobucket.com/user/mtucker66/media/Jagtard_zpshmafqgep.jpg.html)

[lady_bug87]

[QUOTE=lady_bug87;964819]

What's your issues? You think I care what you believe?

My issue is that you say things like they're fact when you have NOTHING to back it up with. Your experiences are just anecdotes like everyone else's. Open to criticism.

Lets not pretend it's more than that.

[RAD House]

Not sure how him talking about his personal experience is the same as him saying "things like they're fact". Who knows maybe you are the genius amongst dunces. I have read in several different forums that the spider gene is associated with head wobble. No one is doing studies on the issues of captive bred pet snakes, so all we have to go off of is the word of people in the hobby. No one said that all spider morphs all have head wobble just that they see it more often in this morph than others.

[SSSSnakes]

[QUOTE=SSSSnakes;964824]

My issue is that you say things like they're fact when you have NOTHING to back it up with. Your experiences are just anecdotes like everyone else's. Open to criticism.

Lets not pretend it's more than that.

My experiences are facts. I have no reason to lie about what has happened to me and it is rude for you to call me a liar just because you have never seen this before. If you don't believe me, that is your problem. I share what has happened to me over the past 30+ years. You are just a rude person who likes to cause trouble. Stop trolling.

[DDW]

Come on, please calm down, I hate to see people fight:( can we take a deep breathe and think. What is better for the forum? If new members end up reading fights between our own members, they might decide against staying, why don't we see what other than negative comments and such we can say please.

[lady_bug87]

Not sure how him talking about his personal experience is the same as him saying "things like they're fact". Who knows maybe you are the genius amongst dunces. I have read in several different forums that the spider gene is associated with head wobble. No one is doing studies on the issues of captive bred pet snakes, so all we have to go off of is the word of people in the hobby. No one said that all spider morphs all have head wobble just that they see it more often in this morph than others.

[QUOTE=lady_bug87;964835]

My experiences are facts. I have no reason to lie about what has happened to me and it is rude for you to call me a liar just because you have never seen this before. If you don't believe me, that is your problem. I share what has happened to me over the past 30+ years. You are just a rude person who likes to cause trouble. Stop trolling.

I'll just leave this here.

But I digress.

As for the wobble I'm not doubting it. I know it happens. I have seen it happen. To the point the thing can't eat? No. I don't believe that happens often at all. Not enough to get all huffy about it. Or to use the words "many times" then follow it up by saying not for the last while.

No matter what I say Jerry you'd find issue with me. So what's the difference?

[Derek Roddy]

[QUOTE=SSSSnakes;964722]




so... it happens "many times" just not in the past few years?

I call BULLDOODIE on you. Big. Fat. Bull. Turds.

Actually, Time has zero effect on the expression of a gene. No amount of "outcrossing" or "Time" will "fix" a gene that has associated issue, like the spider or Jag. Comes with the gene.

ALL spider (And Jag morphs) have some type of neuro related issues. Some worse than others. Some... almost none at all but, still present if you know what to look for.

I too have witnessed spider balls (only a few) that were so messed up neurotically that they couldn't eat.....so, yes it is possible.

In fact, I'm dealing with a Jag for a friend right now that is so messed up it can't eat and has to be assist fed.

Also, the Albino Black Headed Python has issues and has only been a couple out of 20+ that have survived longer than a couple weeks out of the egg.

Cheers,
D

[lady_bug87]

[QUOTE=lady_bug87;964819]

Actually, Time has zero effect on the expression of a gene. No amount of "outcrossing" or "Time" will "fix" a gene that has associated issue, like the spider or Jag. Comes with the gene.

ALL spider (And Jag morphs) have some type of neuro related issues. Some worse than others. Some... almost none at all but, still present if you know what to look for.

I too have witnessed spider balls (only a few) that were so messed up neurotically that they couldn't eat.....so, yes it is possible.

In fact, I'm dealing with a Jag for a friend right now that is so messed up it can't eat and has to be assist fed.

Also, the Albino Black Headed Python has issues and has only been a couple out of 20+ that have survived longer than a couple weeks out of the egg.

Cheers,
D

See. I know it happens that it gets bad but I didn't think it was common.

[RAD House]

No you said you didn't think it is ever bad enough to stop an animal from eating. Now you have two members with tons of experience telling you otherwise. Maybe it is time to bow out gracefully, instead of back pedaling.

[SSSSnakes]

[QUOTE=lady_bug87;964819]

Actually, Time has zero effect on the expression of a gene. No amount of "outcrossing" or "Time" will "fix" a gene that has associated issue, like the spider or Jag. Comes with the gene.

ALL spider (And Jag morphs) have some type of neuro related issues. Some worse than others. Some... almost none at all but, still present if you know what to look for.

I too have witnessed spider balls (only a few) that were so messed up neurotically that they couldn't eat.....so, yes it is possible.

In fact, I'm dealing with a Jag for a friend right now that is so messed up it can't eat and has to be assist fed.

Also, the Albino Black Headed Python has issues and has only been a couple out of 20+ that have survived longer than a couple weeks out of the egg.

Cheers,
D

When I said it has not happened in the past few years, I was not meaning that time may fix it. I was only stating that I have not had an issue with it in the past few years. I had to deal with about 4 spider ball years ago that had the wobble so bad they had to be assisted fed and could not eat on their own. Since then we have not had spider balls for sale until recently and they have shown no signs of the head wobble.

[Derek Roddy]

When I said it has not happened in the past few years, I was not meaning that time may fix it. I was only stating that I have not had an issue with it in the past few years. I had to deal with about 4 spider ball years ago that had the wobble so bad they had to be assisted fed and could not eat on their own. Since then we have not had spider balls for sale until recently and they have shown no signs of the head wobble.

I was referring to Lady Bugs comment to you.






so... it happens "many times" just not in the past few years?

I call BULLDOODIE on you. Big. Fat. Bull. Turds.



D

[Albert Clark]

One of the references is OWAL reptiles, ( Oh What A Loser) as far as the list of known disabling maladies in some of our favorite bp morphs. The other would be VMS herpetoculture that has a section of literature about genetically acquired disabilities. Hope this helped.

[Aaron_S]

No you said you didn't think it is ever bad enough to stop an animal from eating. Now you have two members with tons of experience telling you otherwise. Maybe it is time to bow out gracefully, instead of back pedaling.

My 18 years of experience with 100's of spiders conflict with the 4 animals in the "experienced" side.

4 animals makes me question if there were other issues. They are ball pythons afterall.

[SSSSnakes]

My 18 years of experience with 100's of spiders conflict with the 4 animals in the "experienced" side.

4 animals makes me question if there were other issues. They are ball pythons afterall.

That was 4 spider balls with that problem, out of hundreds of spider balls that I dealt with.

[lady_bug87]

No you said you didn't think it is ever bad enough to stop an animal from eating. Now you have two members with tons of experience telling you otherwise. Maybe it is time to bow out gracefully, instead of back pedaling.

I have never seen it. I don't think its common at all.

waaaay less common than Jerry noted. Hence why I called bullspit.

[lady_bug87]

[QUOTE=Aaron_S;964669]Never have I seen this. Do you have a source for this? I currently own the spider morph and have produced them. I have never seen the wobble negatively effect the quality of life of a ball python.

My source is me. Where I work I have had to assisted feed some spiders that had sever head wobble, to the point that they could not control the head and neck to eat. It has happened many times.



That was 4 spider balls with that problem, out of hundreds of spider balls that I dealt with.

Interesting. I'm not trying to be a brat or a stickler but These 2 bolded sentences seem to contradict.

For the record MesoCorney. THAT is back peddling

[Aaron_S]

That was 4 spider balls with that problem, out of hundreds of spider balls that I dealt with.

Exactly. Still a small sample size that other factors have to be considered. I don't see how 4 animals out of thousands counts as "fact".

Other baby snakes don't always eat on their own either and they have no wobble.

[SSSSnakes]

I have never seen it. I don't think its common at all.

waaaay less common than Jerry noted. Hence why I called bullspit.

I never said it was common. I said I have seen it and it happens. Just because you and Aaron have not seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Again calling me a liar is rude and is why people don't want to post, because they do not want to be attacked with sarcastic remarks. You can say I disagree with you and leave out the sarcastic remarks. Lets be polite and mature with each other.

[lady_bug87]

I never said it was common. I said I have seen it and it happens. Just because you and Aaron have not seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Again calling me a liar is rude and is why people don't want to post, because they do not want to be attacked with sarcastic remarks. You can say I disagree with you and leave out the sarcastic remarks. Lets be polite and mature with each other.

I suggest you take a look around the forum. browse my post history and then eat your words.

But sure I'll be the bad guy. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

[SSSSnakes]

Exactly. Still a small sample size that other factors have to be considered. I don't see how 4 animals out of thousands counts as "fact".

Other baby snakes don't always eat on their own either and they have no wobble.

The fact is that 4 spider balls had head wobble severe enough that they had to be assisted fed. I never said it was a common problem, only that it happens. You are going so far off this subject just to be right. So lets just say you are right and everyone else who disagrees with you or has had other personal experiences that you have never seen are wrong.

[lady_bug87]

The fact is that 4 spider balls had head wobble severe enough that they had to be assisted fed. I never said it was a common problem, only that it happens. You are going so far off this subject just to be right. So lets just say you are right and everyone else who disagrees with you or has had other personal experiences that you have never seen are wrong.

works for you right?

[SSSSnakes]

I suggest you take a look around the forum. browse my post history and then eat your words.

But sure I'll be the bad guy. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

I have no more to say to you or Aaron on this subject, because both of you at this point are just determined to go off topic to try and have the last word. Have a nice day.

[Aaron_S]

The fact is that 4 spider balls had head wobble severe enough that they had to be assisted fed. I never said it was a common problem, only that it happens. You are going so far off this subject just to be right. So lets just say you are right and everyone else who disagrees with you or has had other personal experiences that you have never seen are wrong.

Jerry, I honestly have no problem being wrong. I just ask for context on the situation before I change my opinion. I don't see how it's a bad thing asking for more information. Its how we all learn. By bringing loads of experience together to sort through.

No one person's experience is fact as you suggest. It takes multiple experiences between people with the same or similar results to really become "fact". Which denotes it's a tried and true thing.

In this case I think 4 snakes is an anomaly and I wouldn't put it as "it happens" on a list of illnesses considering 10's of thousands aren't and don't end up like that. Furthermore, there still could be other factors that kept these snakes from eating on their own as that does happen with baby snakes of all species.

[RAD House]

The difference between Jerry's back pedaling and yours, lady bug, is that his was an over exaggeration. Whereas yours was because you realized you were entirely wrong. The other difference I see is that Jerry's experience was supported by Dereck and by all appearances they are not connected. You and Aaron on the other hand are quite obviously somehow connected and are prone to have the same opinions. Finally it is quite clear that Jerry's opinion is the spider morph is related to head wobble and that this head wobble can be so severe that they require force feeding. You on the other hand are not so clear. I think you are saying the spider morph is in no way related to head wobble, even though I have read many experienced people saying the opposite. Secondly that you believe that head wobble can not be so severe as to necessitate force feeding or any other debilitating situations. On this I feel it is much more helpful to take advice of people that say they have dealt with this than those who have not. We are not talking about two nuts off the street here, we are talking about two people with years of experience in the industry.

[trailblazer295]

Come on, please calm down, I hate to see people fight:( can we take a deep breathe and think. What is better for the forum? If new members end up reading fights between our own members, they might decide against staying, why don't we see what other than negative comments and such we can say please.

I've been on forums for pets, cars, electronics, snowmobiles etc for years. Members go back and forth all the time. It's not unique at all. Don't worry about it, just grab some popcorn.


On the original note what are species and or genes that have common issues. I started reading this for my own knowledge and learn what snakes to avoid the next time I want to add to my collection.

[lady_bug87]

I've been on forums for pets, cars, electronics, snowmobiles etc for years. Members go back and forth all the time. It's not unique at all. Don't worry about it, just grab some popcorn.


On the original note what are species and or genes that have common issues. I started reading this for my own knowledge and learn what snakes to avoid the next time I want to add to my collection.

I was wondering when you'd show up. :p

[trailblazer295]

Couldn't find my popcorn maker so I gave up.

[lady_bug87]

You just can't stay away!

[trailblazer295]

Isn't the Internet supposed to be entertaining?

[lady_bug87]

It is indeed!

[trailblazer295]

Forums are a usually a good source of people going back and forth. It reminds me of a quote I read but I can't say it as I'm sure I'll get in trouble.

[DDW]

I've been on forums for pets, cars, electronics, snowmobiles etc for years. Members go back and forth all the time. It's not unique at all. Don't worry about it, just grab some popcorn.


On the original note what are species and or genes that have common issues. I started reading this for my own knowledge and learn what snakes to avoid the next time I want to add to my collection.

I understand, I was just hoping to avoid the nessessity of the intervention of moderators.

That is the reason I chose to start this thread, so I could avoid these problems or if I do get one, know how to deal with them, like any other animal.

To be honest, I don't really care for the fat body of a royal/ball python(though the variety of morphs are pretty), too thick, proportions are weird to me. I would pick a slender snake over a thick, chubby looking one. (Though this might change in the future) and it seems that this is a species that has most of the problems (I'm thinking because it's been bred so much for all those morphs)

[lady_bug87]

I understand, I was just hoping to avoid the nessessity of the intervention of moderators.

That is the reason I chose to start this thread, so I could avoid these problems or if I do get one, know how to deal with them, like any other animal.

To be honest, I don't really care for the fat body of a royal/ball python(though the variety of morphs are pretty), too thick, proportions are weird to me. I would pick a slender snake over a thick, chubby looking one. (Though this might change in the future) and it seems that this is a species that has most of the problems (I'm thinking because it's been bred so much for all those morphs)

That's a good point. Morphs are a "break" in the gene. Technically they're like a deformity. So when you breed for deformities there are consequences. Its important to remember that all of the issues in any species that are the result of selective morph breeding are on a spectrum. Some mild some severe.

Saying that, carpets, boas, some lizards, can all have issues. The important thing is to know what you're getting yourself into whether you're breeding or purchasing.

[Aaron_S]

I understand, I was just hoping to avoid the nessessity of the intervention of moderators.

That is the reason I chose to start this thread, so I could avoid these problems or if I do get one, know how to deal with them, like any other animal.

To be honest, I don't really care for the fat body of a royal/ball python(though the variety of morphs are pretty), too thick, proportions are weird to me. I would pick a slender snake over a thick, chubby looking one. (Though this might change in the future) and it seems that this is a species that has most of the problems (I'm thinking because it's been bred so much for all those morphs)

The ball python morphs weren't "bred for". Morphs start by finding them in the wild then brought into captivity. Spiders, cinnamons, caramels, deserts etc. All were found so it wasn't due to inbreeding that cause any associated "defect".

Ball pythons just have more morphs than most species.

[trailblazer295]

I understand, I was just hoping to avoid the nessessity of the intervention of moderators.

That is the reason I chose to start this thread, so I could avoid these problems or if I do get one, know how to deal with them, like any other animal.

To be honest, I don't really care for the fat body of a royal/ball python(though the variety of morphs are pretty), too thick, proportions are weird to me. I would pick a slender snake over a thick, chubby looking one. (Though this might change in the future) and it seems that this is a species that has most of the problems (I'm thinking because it's been bred so much for all those morphs)

Fish are even worse then snakes, inbred to have such flashy colours and many have very poor immune systems as a result. Some are even physical deformities bred on purpose to create these 'fish'.

[Derek Roddy]

My 18 years of experience with 100's of spiders conflict with the 4 animals in the "experienced" side.

4 animals makes me question if there were other issues. They are ball pythons afterall.


Sorry Aaron but, there have been thousands and thousands (just look on any forum anywhere) of spider balls and Jags that have issues and it's not an issue of only 4 animals. Every single spider ball (and Jag) I've EVER had in my hands has had some sort of neurological issue. Whether it be small or large...they ALL have it.

Us 2 are not the only ones who have had severe cases of animals not being able to eat because it was so messed up. The internet forums are riddled with such information.

And, I've experienced it way more than with 4 animals.

Fact, there are cases in which the animal is so messed up they can't eat. It might not be all that common but, it's more common than you seem to have experience with...as I know plenty of people who have dealt with it.

D

[Aaron_S]

Sorry Aaron but, there have been thousands and thousands (just look on any forum anywhere) of spider balls and Jags that have issues and it's not an issue of only 4 animals. Every single spider ball (and Jag) I've EVER had in my hands has had some sort of neurological issue. Whether it be small or large...they ALL have it.

Us 2 are not the only ones who have had severe cases of animals not being able to eat because it was so messed up. The internet forums are riddled with such information.

And, I've experienced it way more than with 4 animals.

Fact, there are cases in which the animal is so messed up they can't eat. It might not be all that common but, it's more common than you seem to have experience with...as I know plenty of people who have dealt with it.

D

Derek I apologize that my opinion wasn't very clear. I know all about the wobble and agree that every spider morph has it on some level.

My experience is completely different than yours in regards to how it affects a snake eating. Since we learned in this thread that that is enough to deem something 'fact' it means I have trouble believing this.

Here's why, I constantly get questions about snakes not eating. Mostly ball pythons, and I've found that most people blame the snake for bad eating habits. Whereas, when after asking a lot of questions, it comes out that it's usually a keeper error (accident or otherwise). So I really am skeptical when people simply blame the wobble on bad feeding snakes.

As I've stated earlier, in breeding snakes, there are some babies that just never eat on their own without any wobble. It's part and parcel with mother nature so I don't quite see how wobble gets blamed for every single issue.

[RAD House]

That's a good point. Morphs are a "break" in the gene. Technically they're like a deformity. So when you breed for deformities there are consequences. Its important to remember that all of the issues in any species that are the result of selective morph breeding are on a spectrum. Some mild some severe.

Saying that, carpets, boas, some lizards, can all have issues. The important thing is to know what you're getting yourself into whether you're breeding or purchasing.

This is not how genetics works. Not all genetic variation can be considered a deformity. Nature breeds for genetic variation all the time, it is called natural selection. Breeding for mutations does not necessarily need to have negative consequences, but ignoring problem genes in a line breeding situation certainly will.

Aaron, as Derek said I think reading through many sources it seems that theses are known issues with spider morphs with in the industry. It is important that future breeders understand all possible risks. If ball pythons are notoriously sensitive feeders than how can you argue that a neurological condition will have no effect on the snake eating? In my opinion breeding for a snake that has any outwardly visible Neurological issue is irresponsible. Also in this case the word fact is relative as we not talking about something that has shown to be true through decades of scientific study, but through the agreement of experienced individuals.

[lady_bug87]

This is not how genetics works. Not all genetic variation can be considered a deformity. Nature breeds for genetic variation all the time, it is called natural selection. Breeding for mutations does not necessarily need to have negative consequences, but ignoring problem genes in a line breeding situation certainly will.

Aaron, as Derek said I think reading through many sources it seems that theses are known issues with spider morphs with in the industry. It is important that future breeders understand all possible risks. If ball pythons are notoriously sensitive feeders than how can you argue that a neurological condition will have no effect on the snake eating? In my opinion breeding for a snake that has any outwardly visible Neurological issue is irresponsible. Also in this case the word fact is relative as we not talking about something that has shown to be true through decades of scientific study, but through the agreement of experienced individuals.

You're right. That's why I said spectrum. Some have no issues and some do. Pinstripes dont. Spiders do.

[DDW]

The ball python morphs weren't "bred for". Morphs start by finding them in the wild then brought into captivity. Spiders, cinnamons, caramels, deserts etc. All were found so it wasn't due to inbreeding that cause any associated "defect".

Ball pythons just have more morphs than most species.

Well, you learn more everyday XD I just assumed (which I guess was a mistake XD)

[DDW]

Fish are even worse then snakes, inbred to have such flashy colours and many have very poor immune systems as a result. Some are even physical deformities bred on purpose to create these 'fish'.

Like the blood parrot fish, deformed mouth so they can't close it completely some have worse than others but I feel bad for it when I see them eat, but they are extremely territorial. (I have one, my sister too)

[trailblazer295]

Like the blood parrot fish, deformed mouth so they can't close it completely some have worse than others but I feel bad for it when I see them eat, but they are extremely territorial. (I have one, my sister too)


Exactly, I personally never saw the appeal of them. Electric blue rams are bred for the vibrant blue but inbred and poor health. Most of the dwarf gourami generally just up and die.

[DDW]

Exactly, I personally never saw the appeal of them. Electric blue rams are bred for the vibrant blue but inbred and poor health. Most of the dwarf gourami generally just up and die.

My parents got it and did research after, I, for one, like fish that are natural occurring or such. I have always thought rope fish were cool but my mom says it's too much like a snake(signaling my love of serpentine things before realizing it lol), and I was surprised how much like a snake they are once I looked more into them (you have to have a secure lid to prevent escape and they can stay alive without water for a surprising amount of time)

[trailblazer295]

My parents got it and did research after, I, for one, like fish that are natural occurring or such. I have always thought rope fish were cool but my mom says it's too much like a snake(signaling my love of serpentine things before realizing it lol), and I was surprised how much like a snake they are once I looked more into them (you have to have a secure lid to prevent escape and they can stay alive without water for a surprising amount of time)

I bought khuli loaches for the same reason. Liked them for years like mini sea snakes. The writing was on the wall just didn't see it.

[DDW]

I bought khuli loaches for the same reason. Liked them for years like mini sea snakes. The writing was on the wall just didn't see it.

I didn't know what those where till now, just Google searched imaged, I don't know whether I like these whiskers or not lol but they are pretty :) one time I got a dragon fish that I named Twisler like the candy, I loved that thing until the red eared slider striped the top spine off (it survived, I sent it to my sisters where there was another dragon fish. The top spine grew back and lived it's life there until both dragon fish died) I want another dragonfish, imagine that thing going in and out of a scull or something lol they deserve the name dragonXD