Is this man being responsible with these hot snakes?

[Praireboyfarmer]

There is a man on Youtube who goes by the name "Viperkeeper" and he keeps a large collection of venomous snakes >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtkM70AX2Ks (If you trust links)

The man treats his snakes like toys. He gets in their face, let's king cobra snap at his ankles, teases them, etc. He isn't some crazy snake wrangler, he's just a hobbyist.

What he does strikes me as being ridiculously careless but he's only been bit a few times in the 30? years he's done it. (once on video if you care to find the video) so he must be doing something right (or just incredibly lucky).

I watch him anyway because if he gets bit and dies that's his problem, not mine. I'm just curious as to what some experience snake enthusiast think.

[Minkness]

All I could do was stare like O_O and go "omg...no...nonono" the entire time of that clip....

[Jim Smith]

Eventually, his reckless and foolish behavior will catch up with him and his name will be added as a Darwin Award winner. The man is a fool!

[FWK]

I've been watching Al for a long time and while I do not necessarily agree with everything he does, I have learned a tremendous amount from him about the herpetoculture hobby in general. He takes risks that I never would (particularly with Elvis, the King Cobra you mentioned) but he definitely knows what he is doing and is very experienced. He says himself that he is one to push the envelope at times. I very much agree with his no-nonsense attitude about the hobby as well. In fact I agree with his no-nonsense attitude on many of the subjects that come up in his videos. I see Al much the way I saw Steve Erwin, if you take the videos in with a grain of salt (realize that some of the things they do are for the camera) there is a lot to be learned from them. They both love the animals they work with and want to share that passion. I owe much of my love of wildlife, and snakes in particular, to the influence Steve had on me growing up (and I suspect I'm not alone). And even though the snobbier members of the herping community despise people like Steve, without those willing to push the limits a bit in the name of entertainment in order to share that love kids such as myself would never grow up to even care about wildlife.

[pet_snake_78]

He certainly does a lot of things I wouldn't want to do, but I believe he said he's been keeping venomous for over 20 years, so I guess it's worked for him thus far. Personally, I'd hire out some of the work he does rather than take the risk myself (tubing for force feeding and/or medications, etc) but then again I suppose when you have a large venomous collection that sort of thing becomes less practical due to time and financial constraints. I'm not a big fan of saying if X does Y, it's going to cause legislation, though. A human being should be able to make some choices for himself and if a law is passed it has more to do with us needing to fix our societies urge to ban things that are seldom dangerous based on knee jerk reactions than anything else. The number of venomous deaths in the US is not statistically significant, it makes more sense to ban french fries than venomous snakes.

I would also agree that people who put on a good show do encourage many to go on and have more legitimate interests in wildlife later on if done in a way that is respectful toward the animals.

[prairiepanda]

One hand handling camera, one hand handling hemostats, no snake hooks in sight, 3 separate enclosures open simultaneously(and all 3 snakes occupying separate lines of sight!!!)...how is this guy even alive??? I've seen a lot of photos and videos of people being reckless with hots, but this one is over the top. I wonder if this is his regular feeding routine, or just the way he does things for YouTube?

[Minkness]

Best line yet.....

'*The number of venomous deaths in the US is not statistically significant, it makes more sense to ban french fries than venomous snakes'

However, doing something 'your way' behind closed doors is different than plastering it on YouTube. Someone with little or no experience migt see that snd not take the venomous seriously. This doesn't justmake society see them poorly, but potentially puts some poor idiot in a very bad place.

"One hand handling camera, one hand handling hemostats, no snake hooks in sight, 3 separate enclosures open simultaneously(and all 3 snakes occupying separate lines of sight!!!)..."

I wouldn't do this with non-venomous!!!

[MDT]

Viperkeeper has been the mentor of at least one person on this board. He knows his stuff.

[Minkness]

I don't think anyone is saying he doesn't know his stuff, just that doing what he does then showing it off is iresponsible.

Perhps to some that might mean the same thing....But I can't speak for them. ^_^;;

[KyleKennedy]

That man is a damn fool. Atleast keep a machete near by.

[eminart]

Personally, I wish we herp people wouldn't post everything we disagree with all over the internet. If something really bothers you, contact that person. Publicly fighting among ourselves just gives ammo to the anti crowd.

[Minkness]

Good point Eminart.

[MDT]

so...based on observation of a couple of YouTube videos, he has been written off as a fool. his wife typically is the one taking the video...that's a "buddy system". Snake hooks/tongs? they're present, you may not see them (he uses hooks frequently). And then we have the admonition to keep (and by inference, use) a machete on the snakes if one gets wonky.

Viperkeeper videos plainly state that "just because i do it this way, you don't need to try this"...he may be showy, but he is def one of the more responsible hot keepers/handlers (with years and years of experience) I have seen. It's not my cup of tea, I have no desire to own hots...but I have respect for this guy.

eminart is on to something folks...contact the dude if you have issues. leave a comment on one of his videos...you don't dig what he's doing? great, glean what is applicable to you and move along. no need to bash the guy on forums, especially when he's not present to refute your accusations.

[Pirarucu]

Al is well aware that some people (meaning a large percentage of the hot community) disagree with his handling methods. If you tell him so, he will rather impolitely tell you that it's none of your business what he does with his hots.
He used to be better. He used to follow good handling procedures, and that's how he never got bit. As more and more small kids/people who have never kept or been around hots started watching his videos and idolizing him, he got a lot more reckless and seems to view himself as invincible to the mistakes that kill hot keepers. Look at his first videos, and you will see a responsible hot keeper. Look at his newer ones and well... You see a dead man walking. It's only a matter of time before he becomes a part of that "insignificant" statistic.

[prairiepanda]

so...based on observation of a couple of YouTube videos, he has been written off as a fool. his wife typically is the one taking the video...that's a "buddy system". Snake hooks/tongs? they're present, you may not see them (he uses hooks frequently). And then we have the admonition to keep (and by inference, use) a machete on the snakes if one gets wonky.
I'm not trying to judge his character based on one video, but you have to admit that what he's doing in this particular video is foolish. That doesn't mean he's a fool all the time, but he's certainly being a fool here. There is no "buddy" taking the video for him this time, and if hooks are present in the room they are not in a location that is easy to reach on short notice, as we had a view of pretty much everything arm's distance around him in the room.


I looked through some of his other videos and indeed his videos are perfectly fine. Very educational, some of them. But a lot of the newer ones make me cringe. I think this one is the worst of them, though. While some of them are just missing some precautions here and there, this one is suicidal.

[that1guy]

Personally I'm not interested in hots, I only like constrictors. However I stumbled across this guy about a year ago and have watched several of his videos since then. I find his videos to be entertaining, but I do think he takes some unnecessary risk. However his videos say just because he does it doesn't mean you should. I agree with him, it's no one else's business what he does with his snakes. It's his life to risk and if he dies doing it, if he's ok with it then it doesn't bother me. Some people may see him and judge the hobby by his actions, but that is just stupid. No matter who it is or what they do it is wrong to judge a whole group of people by the actions of one person. Most people now realize it is wrong to judge a whole race or nation by the actions of the worse person from said group. So why would you do it with people in the same hobby? Not that I am saying he is the worse snake keeper there is just trying to make a point.

[Pirarucu]

Some people may see him and judge the hobby by his actions, but that is just stupid. No matter who it is or what they do it is wrong to judge a whole group of people by the actions of one person. Most people now realize it is wrong to judge a whole race or nation by the actions of the worse person from said group. So why would you do it with people in the same hobby? Not that I am saying he is the worse snake keeper there is just trying to make a point.Except they do. It happens all the time. When lobbyist groups push to ban exotic species, hots are a very easy first target, just like large constrictors. All those lobbyists need to do is show politicians those videos and tell them that those practices are normal. Since he's the only hot keeper consistently posting videos, those practices do look normal to an outsider. They will pull up the worst examples and present them as typical of the hobby. It doesn't matter if it's wrong or unfair, it happens. Period. There is no excuse for giving ammo to the people trying to ban our animals. None. If he wants to take risks, on his head be it. But the moment he posts those videos online while bragging about how experienced he is, it reflects badly on the hobby as a whole, and it is no longer only his business.

[Albert Clark]

I didn't watch the video nor do I care to watch the video. From what I can take on it listening to the accounts posters have given it why would anyone? Prime example of buffoonery at its worst and not amusing in the least. What type of example is he setting for the young and upcoming herp hobbyists? I assure you it's a bad one! Exactly Piracu, once he leaves the privacy of his home and puts this ridiculousness on a public viewing stage then he crosses the line. It makes all herp keepers look like imbeciles. Every action has a impact on us a nation. Lost reptiles, reptile bites, inappropriate reptile shipping practices so why do we need a video of a keeper mishandling venomous reptiles for? Attention? Really, what is he teaching? Irresponsibility? Quackery? This is what USARK is fighting for? Please, be for real! :angry:

[Albert Clark]

so...based on observation of a couple of YouTube videos, he has been written off as a fool. his wife typically is the one taking the video...that's a "buddy system". Snake hooks/tongs? they're present, you may not see them (he uses hooks frequently). And then we have the admonition to keep (and by inference, use) a machete on the snakes if one gets wonky.

Viperkeeper videos plainly state that "just because i do it this way, you don't need to try this"...he may be showy, but he is def one of the more responsible hot keepers/handlers (with years and years of experience) I have seen. It's not my cup of tea, I have no desire to own hots...but I have respect for this guy.

eminart is on to something folks...contact the dude if you have issues. leave a comment on one of his videos...you don't dig what he's doing? great, glean what is applicable to you and move along. no need to bash the guy on forums, especially when he's not present to refute your accusations.

REALLY???? Be for real! :unibrow:

[FWK]

I didn't watch the video nor do I care to watch the video. From what I can take on it listening to the accounts posters have given it why would anyone? Prime example of buffoonery at its worst and not amusing in the least. What type of example is he setting for the young and upcoming herp hobbyists? I assure you it's a bad one! Exactly Piracu, once he leaves the privacy of his home and puts this ridiculousness on a public viewing stage then he crosses the line. It makes all herp keepers look like imbeciles. Every action has a impact on us a nation. Lost reptiles, reptile bites, inappropriate reptile shipping practices so why do we need a video of a keeper mishandling venomous reptiles for? Attention? Really, what is he teaching? Irresponsibility? Quackery? This is what USARK is fighting for? Please, be for real! :angry:

If you have not considered the evidence you have no basis for your opinion. Is a juror to render a verdict based only on what he reads in the newspaper? I'm sure you mean well but your enthusiasm to follow the herd offers no value to this conversation. And those who base an opinion on but one piece of evidence add little more.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Honestly, I don't like him as a person and I don't like him as a keeper. Saying "I do this, but that doesn't mean you should" isn't enough, kids will still see that and they will only see viperkeeper freehandling his snakes. That will put them in a very dangerous situation. I do not think we need this person as a face for our hobby.

[Jim Smith]

I understand that this man is a very knowledgeable and experienced herper. That said, why would such a knowledgeable and experienced herper think that it is necessary (or appropriate ) to open the cages of three highly venomous snakes at the same time and then distract himself with video taping himself as he feeds his snakes while trying to fend off his King Cobras? The only reason I can think of is that he wants to show how comfortable/cavalier he is around venomous snakes. I admit that I have a biased perspective of this behavior since I make my living doing risk assessments to help companies understand the risks in their operations. Based on any risk assessment process that I am aware of, his behavior is off the charts risky to the point of reckless. I always ask my clients, "Do the risks outweigh the benefits?" In viewing this video, I would have to say absolutely yes. Call me judgmental, but I think he's taking foolish risks that one day will catch up with him. Just one man's opinion...

[Pirarucu]

I understand that this man is a very knowledgeable and experienced herper. That said, why would such a knowledgeable and experienced herper think that it is necessary (or appropriate ) to open the cages of three highly venomous snakes at the same time and then distract himself with video taping himself as he feeds his snakes while trying to fend off his King Cobras? The only reason I can think of is that he wants to show how comfortable/cavalier he is around venomous snakes. I admit that I have a biased perspective of this behavior since I make my living doing risk assessments to help companies understand the risks in their operations. Based on any risk assessment process that I am aware of, his behavior is off the charts risky to the point of reckless. I always ask my clients, "Do the risks outweigh the benefits?" In viewing this video, I would have to say absolutely yes. Call me judgmental, but I think he's taking foolish risks that one day will catch up with him. Just one man's opinion...Make that two.

[Albert Clark]

If you have not considered the evidence you have no basis for your opinion. Is a juror to render a verdict based only on what he reads in the newspaper? I'm sure you mean well but your enthusiasm to follow the herd offers no value to this conversation. And those who base an opinion on but one piece of evidence add little more.

This is not a courtroom, I am not on jury duty, and you certainly are not the judge! I can listen to opinions about a topic and make a informed comment on it based on my feelings of the topic. This is a public forum and it doesn't have kings and queens no matter how much you may think it does! :angry:

[Albert Clark]

If you have not considered the evidence you have no basis for your opinion. Is a juror to render a verdict based only on what he reads in the newspaper? I'm sure you mean well but your enthusiasm to follow the herd offers no value to this conversation. And those who base an opinion on but one piece of evidence add little more.

Anyway, who do you think you are to make up criteria for MY opinion????? I have every right to comment on whatever I want to without your interpretation of it's basis. Once again this is a public forum and public ends with a "c" and not a "k" FWK. :)

[Aaron_S]

so...based on observation of a couple of YouTube videos, he has been written off as a fool. his wife typically is the one taking the video...that's a "buddy system". Snake hooks/tongs? they're present, you may not see them (he uses hooks frequently). And then we have the admonition to keep (and by inference, use) a machete on the snakes if one gets wonky.

Viperkeeper videos plainly state that "just because i do it this way, you don't need to try this"...he may be showy, but he is def one of the more responsible hot keepers/handlers (with years and years of experience) I have seen. It's not my cup of tea, I have no desire to own hots...but I have respect for this guy.

eminart is on to something folks...contact the dude if you have issues. leave a comment on one of his videos...you don't dig what he's doing? great, glean what is applicable to you and move along. no need to bash the guy on forums, especially when he's not present to refute your accusations.


Matt, I get your point and agree on some levels. However, the internet has many wonderful uses but it also has it's pitfalls. A wide audience is great but I believe in this instance it's not. Too many people will see this and attempt what he does regardless of the disclaimer. The disclaimer is to hopfully keep any lawsuits from being filed/lost. Let's be real here, people like to think they're always the exception to the rule and above average. Someone will attempt what he does thinking they have it all figured out and get bit and possibly die.

The community shouldn't "in fight" but I also believe the community should ban together and make it known if need be that guys like the viperkeeper are outliers and NOT apart of the responsible community (if his newer methods are really that dangerous). We shouldn't harbour everyone in the "community" if what they do harm the image of us as a whole. As they say, we're only as good as our weakest link.

Side note, the analogies people use about stats of venomous injuries compared to french fries or cars is skewed. Far more people interact with french fries or cars on a daily basis which increases the chances of danger by huge amounts. How many people deal with cobras on a daily/regular basis in the United States in a private collection? Far less.

[MDT]

Let's be real here, people like to think they're always the exception to the rule and above average.

You are so right about this...compared to the "here, hold my beer and watch this" crowd, he does a better job (in my opinion...), that's all. Since I don't keep hots, I really don't have a large dog in this fight. :D

I guess what I was trying to convey is that I've seen a lot more goofball things done with hots than what VK does...especially when you look at the (fairly) recent posts (and bans) from the "free-handlers" of hots.

I'm gonna go get Albert some chamomile tea....I hear it has a calming effect.

[Aaron_S]

You are so right about this...compared to the "here, hold my beer and watch this" crowd, he does a better job (in my opinion...), that's all. Since I don't keep hots, I really don't have a large dog in this fight. :D

I guess what I was trying to convey is that I've seen a lot more goofball things done with hots than what VK does...especially when you look at the (fairly) recent posts (and bans) from the "free-handlers" of hots.

I'm gonna go get Albert some chamomile tea....I hear it has a calming effect.

I agree in this instance that there's far worse people out there than VK. I was trying to steer my previous post to a more general statement about this type of behaviour.

It might keep the flaming down and less work for me :D

[MDT]

I agree in this instance that there's far worse people out there than VK. I was trying to steer my previous post to a more general statement about this type of behaviour.

It might keep the flaming down and less work for me :D


no worries! i'll reel my comments in too :)

[SSSSnakes]

I don't know how many of the people who have posted here actually keep or handle venomous snakes, but I do. I keep and handle venomous snakes every day. There are many ways that may appear to be unsafe when handling a venomous snake, but with experienced keepers and handlers they are not. If it works for you,, then go with it. I may not agree with some of the things he does and I'm sure he would not agree with some of the things I do. One of the people he has trained, also has said that his ways may be careless but he told them to do what he teaches them and not what he does.

As a venomous keeper and mentor to some, there is never a completely safe way to handle a venomous snake, there is always a risk. Viperkeeper, Steve Erwin and myself, are not hobbyist. We are professional keepers and handlers, so we look at what may be considered dangerous in a different light. I personally have to follow certain rules and regulations to keep my licenses, which helps to make me a little safer. My enclosures are keyed locked and only someone who is licensed can handle my venomous snakes. I know when I am performing one of my shows, I tell the audience that I'm not a daredevil and I wear HexArmor gloves and use snake sticks to help protect myself. I have no need to try and boost my ego or popularity as being a risk taker. I think Viperkeeper, Steve Erwin and myself all feel, as Steve use to say, we do what we do so others will feel as passionate and love these animals as much as we do. You want to save things that you love.

[Praireboyfarmer]

I don't know how many of the people who have posted here actually keep or handle venomous snakes, but I do. I keep and handle venomous snakes every day. There are many ways that may appear to be unsafe when handling a venomous snake, but with experienced keepers and handlers they are not. If it works for you,, then go with it. I may not agree with some of the things he does and I'm sure he would not agree with some of the things I do. One of the people he has trained, also has said that his ways may be careless but he told them to do what he teaches them and not what he does.

As a venomous keeper and mentor to some, there is never a completely safe way to handle a venomous snake, there is always a risk. Viperkeeper, Steve Erwin and myself, are not hobbyist. We are professional keepers and handlers, so we look at what may be considered dangerous in a different light. I personally have to follow certain rules and regulations to keep my licenses, which helps to make me a little safer. My enclosures are keyed locked and only someone who is licensed can handle my venomous snakes. I know when I am performing one of my shows, I tell the audience that I'm not a daredevil and I wear HexArmor gloves and use snake sticks to help protect myself. I have no need to try and boost my ego or popularity as being a risk taker. I think Viperkeeper, Steve Erwin and myself all feel, as Steve use to say, we do what we do so others will feel as passionate and love these animals as much as we do. You want to save things that you love.

When I asked this I was genuinely curious about the way he handles his snakes. It looked a bit reckless to me and I was curious as to if it was safe or not (Because incidentally I had actually seen your comment about "It may look reckless, but it's not".) It's obvious that the man is knowledgeable and very experienced (Though I personally don't care for his less than friendly attitude)

If I knew it was going to turn into a big argument on this thread I wouldn't have posted it as I do not want a bad reputation on these boards and am genuinely interested in stepping into the world of Herpetology.

Thanks.

[MDT]

If I knew it was going to turn into a big argument on this thread I wouldn't have posted it as I do not want a bad reputation on these boards and am genuinely interested in stepping into the world of Herpetology.

Thanks.


PBF...no worries dude, this is herpetoculture...we eat our young. it's all good :D

[Minkness]

PBF...no worries dude, this is herpetoculture...we eat our young. it's all good :D

Thanks for the LOLs!!

Also PBF,we have MUCH worse instigators than you running around here lol. I actually am glad you posted this. Debate is healthy for the most part, and honestly, this is one of the most 'tame' arguments Ive seen on here about something that is otherwise quite deviding in our hobby. =)

[D Grade]

I think you guys are getting far to worked up about this and none of you making a big deal about it keep hots.

I have been watching Al's vids since December and have watched nearly every vid he has posted weekly since he started. I think he is one, if not the most responsible hot keeper that posts vids on You Tube. I also watch Jerry the snake man videos, both are incredibly skilled and knowledgable keepers who handle quite different (Jerry, you need to post more vids btw, I love your channel). Al uses hooks on all snakes and only tails when absolutely necessary. Jerry uses hooks and puncture proof gloves to actually hold the snake. Both work, both are risky but hey thats the risk you take by keeping hots.

As for Elvis (the King Cobra in that video), Al has developed his own relationship with that snake. Elvis is by far the most hard to handle snake in Al's collection and probably the most entertaining to subscribers of his channel. Is the video a bit of a show case, yes it may be. But Al knows that snakes actions, attitude, potential, and moods to a tee in person, we do not. Most people who know about hots know that Cobras for the most part are big bluffers. They hiss and false strike 90% of the time. Can they apply a 100% defensive full venom yield bit. Of course they can, but so can every other snake in Al's collection. Everyone who watched Al's channel knows Elvis always comes shooting out of his viv and he nips at Al's shoes for some strange reason. I would say if anyone has the capability of handling that snake, Al certainly does.

To boot, Al keeps a stock of antivenin in existance for all of his snakes he keeps. He is also a chemist by trade and knows a great deal about venom. I have learned more about venom on Al's channel in six months that I would have in a matter of years by researching on my own. The man knows what he's doing and the risk he's taking.

Im a bit worked up by this because I strongly feel you guys are over reacting to this. Al is being looked at in the same catagory as the idiots on youtube who put Easern Diamondback Rattlesnakes around their neck and hand feed Hairy Bush Vipers and I disagree with that 100%. Al has a deep understanding and care for his snakes and he handles them with care and respect at his own risk. He's been doing it since the 70's so one would think he knows what he's doing.

I do plan on keeping venomous some day and have learned a great amount of knowledge from Al and Jerry. I feel these guys are two prime examples of how to keep, care, and handle hots. Will I handle mine like they do, probably not. As with all species kept, everyone handles them differently. I would suggest that those of you who think Al is a reckless keeper watch many more vids on his channel and then come to that conclusion after a few more vids.

[Minkness]

D, I can't speak for everyone, but for me, it's not an argument of if he's a good keeper or knowledgeable, but is it responsible to post it in a place children, inexperienced, non-respecting, and let's face it...idiots could view it and say 'I can do that!' Then get in trouble and shine a bad light on all of the community. Venomous or all reptiles included. It's not him, it's not his practices or how well he knows his animals, it's the other side of things.

[reptiledude987]

I completly with D Grade on this. I've been watching those videos for years. Anyone posting a video about anything cant control what viewers do with its content. if I watch about drift racing and write off my car i cant hold the the preson who posted the video responsibel for the damage to my car.

[Minkness]

That is a valid point.

Not to get too political here, but I think alot of this stems from our fears of our own government.

Just like the latest lacey act thing. A few bad apples spoiled the bunch.

Not that we SHOULD, but we are.

Please understand that I say this loosely however.

[D Grade]

D, I can't speak for everyone, but for me, it's not an argument of if he's a good keeper or knowledgeable, but is it responsible to post it in a place children, inexperienced, non-respecting, and let's face it...idiots could view it and say 'I can do that!' Then get in trouble and shine a bad light on all of the community. Venomous or all reptiles included. It's not him, it's not his practices or how well he knows his animals, it's the other side of things.

I understand completely Mink, I really do. The posts of people here on SS of them posting pics free handling various Crotalus species without any protection what so ever that were deleted (followed by their bans on the forum) were completely just. I think thats what is unacceptable and damaging to our hobby. I dont think a highly experienced keeper letting one of his hots take a stroll in a confined place inside his house is.


I completly with D Grade on this. I've been watching those videos for years. Anyone posting a video about anything cant control what viewers do with its content. if I watch about drift racing and write off my car i cant hold the the preson who posted the video responsibel for the damage to my car.

Thanks for for that, and thats how I look at it exactly as well. Everyone has the opportunity to partake in a dangerous hobby. Racing, base jumping, sky diving, rock climbing, keeping hots, the list goes on. Its up to the individual to address the dangers and prepare accordingly. On top of this, Al does have a disclaimer at the beginning of every video he's posted which addresses this.

[Jrich]

PBF...no worries dude, this is herpetoculture...we eat our young. it's all good :D

LOL!!!!!!!!!!

Anyways,
I've never watched any of these videos but after reading all the replies (some enlightening, some not so much) I'm definitely going to go check it out.

[Ballchris]

go back and watch viperkeeper 101 its his first vid, he has been in hots for over 20+ years only bitten once in the 80's i think has worked all over with hots he knows what he is doing.

[prairiepanda]

On top of this, Al does have a disclaimer at the beginning of every video he's posted which addresses this.

That disclaimer is missing from this particular video, though. He does have a lot of great videos on his channel, and is often a good role model, but no matter how experienced he is I still find this specific video to be insanely reckless. Granted, I don't keep hots, but I wouldn't even deal with non-venomous snakes in such a manner as this. I don't know why this discussion became one about Al personally. What concerns me is this one video he made, not his usual stuff.

Also, I wouldn't say that letting Elvis out was really an issue. An experienced keeper who's very familiar with an individual snake can give them some roam time if they want. It was an enclosed environment, anyway, I assume. But leaving 3 enclosures open at once, all in separate lines of sight? That is NOT the same as having one familiar snake out for a closely-monitored stroll.

[Pirarucu]

But leaving 3 enclosures open at once, all in separate lines of sight? That is NOT the same as having one familiar snake out for a closely-monitored stroll.I believe that there's only two open at once, actually. The smaller King Cobra shown I believe is an older video of the first one.
Still, you're exactly right. He opened the Gaboon Viper cage and then promptly turned his back on it. When the camera pans back to the king, you can see that he's only two or maybe three feet away from the gaboon viper cage. If he's not in striking distance, it's only barely.

So let me pose a quick question to those defending him on the basis of his experience, as someone who tends to envision worst-case scenarios. What happens if the gaboon viper strikes and (assuming it doesn't land a bite then and there) consequently flops out of the cage onto the floor? He doesn't have any space to maneuver and stay out of the striking distance of both snakes. IMO, keepers should be entirely preventing the possibility of a bite during routine maintenance. Lots of hot keepers say that's not possible, and that you have to get hands-on with the animal at some point. And that's true, if you need to remove stuck eyecaps or fix some other medical issue. But preventing even the possibility of a bite during routine maintenance? Absolutely possible. Shift boxes exist for a reason. They reduce stress on the animal, and entirely remove the need to handle the animal during cage transfers or cleaning. Almost everyone uses them when it comes to large, fast elapids. But nope, VK feels the need to tail this Black Mamba and try to get it into a bucket instead... Starts at around 11:30.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xt799dWkAA

Also guys, let's be honest. His husbandry is questionable at best. He cohabs snakes. He keeps them in cages that are tiny for their size. He brings fresh imports in and sets them up in the same room as his existing collection. He has a crapload of videos showing stuck shed/eyecap removal, so his humidity is clearly not where it should be for some of the animals. A good portion of the cages have crap in them. Need I go on?
He does a lot of the things that we accept as bad husbandry, and since he's idolized it simply goes ignored.

[Albert Clark]

I'm on your page Pirarucu. I always thought this reptile keeping was supposed to be a real hobby, a passion and a industry and not a circus run by a couple of clowns.

[Albert Clark]

Also , a research and science based hobby that leads to the propagation and conservation of reptiles and amphibians. :blink:

[bigsnakegirl785]

I'm on the same page as Piracu. Doesn't also use heat rocks, or am I mistaken? I think in some of his older videos he did use them, but I've heard people say he doesn't nowadays.

Imho opinion no one should be getting comfortable or trusting in any way shape or form with any hot or even giant constrictors. Just because he knows what he's doing doesn't make what he does any smarter. And then to top it off, he tapes it for the masses to see. Sure, you can't control what people watch, but why would you post the kind of videos he does in the first place if you want to spread responsible handling? Disclaimers are not enough. They keep you from a lawsuit, but it doesn't keep a viewer from thinking they can do the same thing as what's portrayed in the video.

[Pirarucu]

Exactly. The disclaimer doesn't stop anyone from doing what he does, it just stops them from suing him when they do it and get bit.

[Aaron_S]

Exactly. The disclaimer doesn't stop anyone from doing what he does, it just stops them from suing him when they do it and get bit.

To be fair a good lawyer can build a case to beat this I'm sure. If they won, different story. I actually wonder if viperkeeper or anyone else with a disclaimer on their youtube videos has contacted a lawyer to know how much and exactly what this covers.

Anyway, We don't need to discuss viperkeeper himself. I think we can discuss the merits of these types of videos and how they can be viewed by the general public and how we, as a whole, can be percieved for good or bad.

Then ask the question. Does this benefit us? Does this benefit those moving towards changing legislation?

[Minkness]

To be fair a good lawyer can build a case to beat this I'm sure. If they won, different story. I actually wonder if viperkeeper or anyone else with a disclaimer on their youtube videos has contacted a lawyer to know how much and exactly what this covers.

Anyway, We don't need to discuss viperkeeper himself. I think we can discuss the merits of these types of videos and how they can be viewed by the general public and how we, as a whole, can be percieved for good or bad.

Then ask the question. Does this benefit us? Does this benefit those moving towards changing legislation?

Perfectly said!

[pet_snake_78]

I don't think our laws are based on reason so much as a show of hands. Look at guns, many mass shootings have happened and guns are not banned despite much effort. There are too many gun owners and it's a voting issue for many of them. Nascar certainly encourages many idiots to drive like even bigger idiots, but no ban is possible -- too many fans. To save the reptile hobby, we must grow as large as possible and it must become a voting issue for us and we must educate each and every reptile owner about those who try to take our rights away. Viperkeeper is probably doing more good than harm as far as laws goes. I also like that he keeps his own venom and is ready to quietly be driven to the ER at any moment if need be, an example we should all try to follow.

[prairiepanda]

I don't think our laws are based on reason so much as a show of hands. Look at guns, many mass shootings have happened and guns are not banned despite much effort. There are too many gun owners and it's a voting issue for many of them.

Wow, you're the first American I've heard speak in support of a gun ban. But that's not a voting issue down there; it's a constitutional issue. A gun ban would violate your constitution of rights. It's not as simple as just making new laws. You could always move up here to Canada of the gun thing makes you nervous ;)

As for the topic of reptile-related legislation being affected by videos like this; I absolutely think it is. Much of this kind of legislation is pushed by animal rights groups who use material just like this to support their cause. Back when I worked in the oil field, my supervisor used to always say "stupid laws are made when stupid people do stupid things". Why is it now illegal in some provinces to put stickers on your hard hat? Because someone used their stickers to cover up cracks rather than requisitioning a safe new hard hat. Seriously, people?? And surely you've seen plastic bags labelled "this is not a toy" or pizza labelled "do not eat frozen"? Those labels are required by law because of law suits filed by just a couple people who lacked common sense. It doesn't have to be a common occurrence; if it becomes public knowledge or if a law suit is filed, then these kinds of silly laws are made in response. Even if only one person was dumb enough to do such things.

EDIT: I'm not trying to call Al dumb or stupid; I know he's a smart guy and knows his stuff. But I still think that posting videos of this kind of recklessness poses a threat to hobby, ESPECIALLY when it's posted by someone who is seen by many in the hobby as a role model and a prime example of an experienced hot keeper. (Again I'm only talking about the specific video that was posted here)

[Aaron_S]

Exactly. The disclaimer doesn't stop anyone from doing what he does, it just stops them from suing him when they do it and get bit.

A disclaimer doesn't stop someone from suing. It's to prevent them from winning. Anyone can sue anyone, it's all about if you can win. Just had that thought :P

I don't think our laws are based on reason so much as a show of hands. Look at guns, many mass shootings have happened and guns are not banned despite much effort. There are too many gun owners and it's a voting issue for many of them. Nascar certainly encourages many idiots to drive like even bigger idiots, but no ban is possible -- too many fans. To save the reptile hobby, we must grow as large as possible and it must become a voting issue for us and we must educate each and every reptile owner about those who try to take our rights away. Viperkeeper is probably doing more good than harm as far as laws goes. I also like that he keeps his own venom and is ready to quietly be driven to the ER at any moment if need be, an example we should all try to follow.

Good point. Money talks to politicians.

[Skits]

I think it's irresponsible but it seems like he knows what he's doing and his animals are obviously healthy and well taken care of. I find the videos give the snakes a sort of funny personality almost. I hope people don't watch the videos and end up dealing with hots the way he does.

[Aaron_S]

I think it's irresponsible but it seems like he knows what he's doing and his animals are obviously healthy and well taken care of. I find the videos give the snakes a sort of funny personality almost. I hope people don't watch the videos and end up dealing with hots the way he does.

You think it's irresponsible and wish people won't do what he does but then you mention that it "seems like he knows what he's doing". Why does that part matter? Irresponsible is irresponsible but you and many others with the same thoughts seem to let him, or anyone who does such a thing, off the hook because "he seems like he knows what he is doing".

Correct me if I'm wrong and not interpeting your words right it's how I read it though.

I think irresponsible is irresponsible. Regardless of who is in a video or showing off bad handling practices of ANY dangerous animal, reptile or non-reptile.

[CosmicOwl]

"Responsible" is a really subjective term. One could say that it's not responsible to even keep venomous snakes at all. You can never eliminate the possibility of getting bitten or one of your snakes escaping and biting somebody else. The same could be said of guns, knives, cars, unhealthy foods and so on. What we're really taking about is risk management. How much risk is he exposing himself or others to?

[prairiepanda]

What we're really taking about is risk management. How much risk is he exposing himself or others to?

The risk to himself is quite substantial. But he can put himself at risk if he wants. Risk to others? Well, I assume that someone with so much experience dealing with hots has the room pretty well escape-proofed and if he had gotten bitten by one or all of the snakes that were out I'd like to think that he or his wife would have ensured all of them were secure before leaving. So the physical risk is minimal(unless you count people who copy this behavior)...but the risk to the hobby is still there. You say it's the same as knives, cars, and unhealthy foods, but it isn't. There are huge influential organizations trying to get those things banned. But for hots, or reptiles in general? It's definitely a threat worth consideration.

[D Grade]

Disclaimers are not enough. They keep you from a lawsuit, but it doesn't keep a viewer from thinking they can do the same thing as what's portrayed in the video.

So what is he supposed to do, take every person who subscribed to his channel by the hand and mentor them? Tell them the do's and dont's? I doubt he has time for that. As for other people, Ive said it once and Ill say it again. People make their own decisions and take their own risks.

Just saw a Crotalus Atrox about an hour and a half ago while out herping. Got within 14"-16" of it to snap a photo, very close to strike range for its size. Was it Al's fault I chose to take that risk? No, Al was an inspiration for me to get into venomous snakes but in no way shape or form did his videos influence me to get that close to a potentially deadly snake. There will be some that are influenced improperly and again that is their own risk, lack of judgement, or lack of parenting (for younger folks). You dont see him with that Naja wrapped around his neck or free handling it. For goodnes sake, Im about preserving the hobby and image of the community as much as anyone here but this is rediculous.

These are hots, if you cant take the heat then stay out of the kitchen. The man has been doing this since the 70's and has been bitten once. Id say he knows what he's doing. Again, I see all these issues and complaints stemming from people who keep Pythons and Colubrids. I havent seen one hot keeper on this thread have a strong objection to what he is doing.

[D Grade]

I don't think our laws are based on reason so much as a show of hands. Look at guns, many mass shootings have happened and guns are not banned despite much effort. There are too many gun owners and it's a voting issue for many of them. Nascar certainly encourages many idiots to drive like even bigger idiots, but no ban is possible -- too many fans. To save the reptile hobby, we must grow as large as possible and it must become a voting issue for us and we must educate each and every reptile owner about those who try to take our rights away. Viperkeeper is probably doing more good than harm as far as laws goes. I also like that he keeps his own venom and is ready to quietly be driven to the ER at any moment if need be, an example we should all try to follow.

Awesome post btw ^^^

[bigsnakegirl785]

So what is he supposed to do, take every person who subscribed to his channel by the hand and mentor them? Tell them the do's and dont's? I doubt he has time for that. As for other people, Ive said it once and Ill say it again. People make their own decisions and take their own risks.

Just saw a Crotalus Atrox about an hour and a half ago while out herping. Got within 14"-16" of it to snap a photo, very close to strike range for its size. Was it Al's fault I chose to take that risk? No, Al was an inspiration for me to get into venomous snakes but in no way shape or form did his videos influence me to get that close to a potentially deadly snake. There will be some that are influenced improperly and again that is their own risk, lack of judgement, or lack of parenting (for younger folks). You dont see him with that Naja wrapped around his neck or free handling it. For goodnes sake, Im about preserving the hobby and image of the community as much as anyone here but this is rediculous.

These are hots, if you cant take the heat then stay out of the kitchen. The man has been doing this since the 70's and has been bitten once. Id say he knows what he's doing. Again, I see all these issues and complaints stemming from people who keep Pythons and Colubrids. I havent seen one hot keeper on this thread have a strong objection to what he is doing.

Taking a photo of a wild hot is a bit different than owning a bunch of hots and being exposed to them every day. Especially when you do stuff like turn your back on them and have multiple enclosures open during feeding time, which is the video of main concern.

Personally, I'd prefer he didn't post the kind of videos he posted. No need for a disclaimer or mentoring or explaining. Keep dangerous handling to yourself and out of the masses, if you want to put yourself in danger that's your prerogative. Whether or not he knows what he's doing imo he shouldn't be posting such videos when it could negatively influence many viewers. But that's just me.

[reptiledude987]

I cant disagree these arent good practices or habits of hot keepers. There are certainly alot worse videos on youtube. IE the guy in a bathtub full of water with 2 adult king cobras. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTYooMq3Cg4 far worse IMO

[D Grade]

I cant disagree these arent good practices or habits of hot keepers. There are certainly alot worse videos on youtube. IE the guy in a bathtub full of water with 2 adult king cobras. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTYooMq3Cg4 far worse IMO

Thats pretty bad. Thought this one was pretty bad too after I saw it for the first time.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oxb6jZ-mMak

[D Grade]

This one isnt smart either:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h8HGfgxMYG0

[reptiledude987]

Thats pretty bad. Thought this one was pretty bad too after I saw it for the first time.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oxb6jZ-mMak
Ok yes this is way worse than anything you will see anything see from viper keeper. that guy totally deserved to get bit in the face. It was rattling the whole time telling him he was being an idiot.

[D Grade]

Definitely a close call and definitely darwin award nominee. And yes, definitely nothing you will see Al do which is why I dont believe Al is a wreckless hot keeper.

[bigsnakegirl785]

It's not a matter of "there's worse out there." If it's bad to any degree that could be fatal, it's not worth showing imo. Keep the bad practices in your home and off the web.

[prairiepanda]

Thats pretty bad. Thought this one was pretty bad too after I saw it for the first time.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oxb6jZ-mMak

That snake is venomoid, and it says so clearly in both the video title and description, so what this man is doing isn't any more dangerous than someone holding an angry colubrid around their neck. It is something I hate seeing online, though, as it encourages people to seek that "cool factor" by mutilating snakes :(

[D Grade]

Cant read the description when using Youtube on my TV, which is 95% of the time. I agree with the mutilation comment and I dont agree with the practice at all.

[D Grade]

It's not a matter of "there's worse out there." If it's bad to any degree that could be fatal, it's not worth showing imo. Keep the bad practices in your home and off the web.

Keeping hots is 100% potentially fatal at all times. You're keeping snakes and handling snakes that could potentially kill you no matter how well you handle them. You're always risking being bitten by interacting with them, feeding them, and performing husbandry or removing them to perform husbandry.

[bigsnakegirl785]

That snake is venomoid, and it says so clearly in both the video title and description, so what this man is doing isn't any more dangerous than someone holding an angry colubrid around their neck. It is something I hate seeing online, though, as it encourages people to seek that "cool factor" by mutilating snakes :(

Venomoid animals can grow back their venom glands, so it's still just as dangerous to handle venomoid snakes as unaltered ones.

[prairiepanda]

Venomoid animals can grow back their venom glands, so it's still just as dangerous to handle venomoid snakes as unaltered ones.

I thought that was only possible if some of the gland tissue was left intact? I know there are some sketchy people out there who don't know what they're doing but if it's done right there shouldn't be any risk(to the human, anyway)...unless I'm mistaken? I don't really know anything about stem cells in snakes.

[Aaron_S]

I thought that was only possible if some of the gland tissue was left intact? I know there are some sketchy people out there who don't know what they're doing but if it's done right there shouldn't be any risk(to the human, anyway)...unless I'm mistaken? I don't really know anything about stem cells in snakes.

Could be right. Could be wrong.

I am in no way up to date on how the surgery is done. I know at one point it was common for them to grow back or to not have been done correctly by hack people in their garages and the venomoid was still lethal.

Back about oh 10 years or so ago it seemed the surgery is more inline with what you're saying. I believe there's less complications and that the right people with the right knowledge can do the surgery and it be "safe".

As I said though, I in no way keep up with that type of stuff as I don't agree with it so I'm going off what knowledge I pick up in passing.

[SSSSnakes]

I'm no doctor or expert in this field, but I have read and heard some ways that it is done. If the duct from the gland to the fang is cut or removed it is possible for the duct to grow back. If the gland and the duct are removed it is not possible for them to grow back. Also if the gland is remove in some snakes, a silicone shape gland is put in the glands place, so the head shape looks the same.

I personally don't agree with making a venomoid. If you want a HOT snake, then leave it HOT.

[D Grade]

I personally don't agree with making a venomoid. If you want a HOT snake, then leave it HOT.

Couldn't agree more, Jerry.

[AlexCrazy]

PBF...no worries dude, this is herpetoculture...we eat our young. it's all good :D
LOOL! XD
Like many say.. the bad part would be for people.. even do there is a this-claimer.. to try these things.. its like the.. don't do it.. means do it dum@$$! :S
My dad keep cobras as a teen.. and he would place them on the couch! but now that he is a man.. he thinks he was so stupid! haha
lucky me.. he learnd that! everyone should learn that too.. you mess with fire.. you get burned. learn that precautions are there for a reason. (what i seed dosent make me stand against HOT owners..im just against the ones who do stunts like these)

[kiiarah]

As a relatively new member of the snake keeping crowd, and also a regular viewer of Al's videos, I can say that at least for me his videos never stike me as reckless or sensational. He is incredibly brave, I will give him that, but don't you have to be to work with deadly animals?

I can see the argument that his videos promote other's seeing HOT keeping as no big deal, but I would have to side with those arguing that he does have a disclaimer and is in no way responsible for other people being idiots. He also frequently disucsses the dangers involved and the measures he takes to prevent accidents. His film techniques are deceptive. With the exception of his Elvis videos he is almost always at least 2 feet if not farther from the tank with the camera fully zoomed in. Yes it looks like he is an inch from their face but that is not the case. He also frequently uses a chest harness for the camera, he is not holding the camera with one hand and tongs with the other, the camera is secured in place and not being held. Elvis is an exception because he knows him well enough to safely allow him more freedom, at least as safely as possible given the circumstances.

I just don't believe that the fact that one person doing something may inspire others to do something crazy should limit their options or freedom of expression. I believe that all states have restrictions and license requirements in place for keeping of HOTs as it is, it is not like some 12 year old is going to go buy a cobra because they watched a Youtube video. If a person wants to do something as stupid as going out and catching a wild venomous snake to keep for fun, I don't think a Al's videos will be the factor that pushes them over the edge. That kind of person is going to wind up in trouble with or without others' example. I have watched a ton of his videos and of course I think it would be remarkable to be in his shoes and get to work with the animals he keeps, but I am smart enough to know I am nowhere near in a position to do so and that path would require years and years of training and preparation and would still be a potentially fatal decision. All I he has ever inspired be to do is feel overjoyed that there are people like him doing what they are doing to promote acceptance of such a universally feared animal.

In many of Al's videos he discusses his behavior with his snakes and his reasoning behind it, all has seemed perfectly sound to me. He comments multiple times about how people give him a hard time about his speech patterns and the long pauses, and points out that it is due to most of his focus being on the deadly snakes in the room and not on the video, and also that if people are bothered by it they can stop watching because attention to the animals takes priority. He is not just oblivious to what is going on around him. He has also discussed how his calm demeanor does not mean that he doesn't take them seriously, he just knows that panic in an already risky situation will only make things worse. I have seen snakes strike inches from his fingers and he hardly flinches, not because he is ignorant of the risks but because flipping out over it would make a serious bite even more likely.

I will admit that some of his videos seem like he is taking major, possibly unnecessary, risks. However, I strongly believe that the education he is bringing to the public is absolutely valuable enough to overlook that. As others have pointed out, if he places himself in harms way that is nobody's problem but his own. The fact that he talks to and interacts with the snakes, Elvis in particular, as though they are the family dog does strike some as reckless, but I think it drives the point home that these are wonderful animals and his love for them rubs off on the viewers. If this is what it takes to help people see HOTs as amazing instead of evil I am all for it.

The original poster made a comment about him being "just a hobbyist". We are talking about a man who is maintaining a huge collection, a large percentage of which are sent to zoos and other educational facilities. He is assisting heavily in venom research, biological studies, and breeding to preserve populations that are threatened in the wild. I don't see it as relevant whether his primary career is snake-keeping or whether he has just chosen to puruse it as a "hobby" he is absolutely not just some guy keeping snakes for fun.

My thinking on it is, until I have as much experience as he does with his animals, I am really in no position to judge.

[Aaron_S]

As a relatively new member of the snake keeping crowd, and also a regular viewer of Al's videos, I can say that at least for me his videos never stike me as reckless or sensational. He is incredibly brave, I will give him that, but don't you have to be to work with deadly animals?

I can see the argument that his videos promote other's seeing HOT keeping as no big deal, but I would have to side with those arguing that he does have a disclaimer and is in no way responsible for other people being idiots. He also frequently disucsses the dangers involved and the measures he takes to prevent accidents. His film techniques are deceptive. With the exception of his Elvis videos he is almost always at least 2 feet if not farther from the tank with the camera fully zoomed in. Yes it looks like he is an inch from their face but that is not the case. He also frequently uses a chest harness for the camera, he is not holding the camera with one hand and tongs with the other, the camera is secured in place and not being held. Elvis is an exception because he knows him well enough to safely allow him more freedom, at least as safely as possible given the circumstances.

I just don't believe that the fact that one person doing something may inspire others to do something crazy should limit their options or freedom of expression. I believe that all states have restrictions and license requirements in place for keeping of HOTs as it is, it is not like some 12 year old is going to go buy a cobra because they watched a Youtube video. If a person wants to do something as stupid as going out and catching a wild venomous snake to keep for fun, I don't think a Al's videos will be the factor that pushes them over the edge. That kind of person is going to wind up in trouble with or without others' example. I have watched a ton of his videos and of course I think it would be remarkable to be in his shoes and get to work with the animals he keeps, but I am smart enough to know I am nowhere near in a position to do so and that path would require years and years of training and preparation and would still be a potentially fatal decision. All I he has ever inspired be to do is feel overjoyed that there are people like him doing what they are doing to promote acceptance of such a universally feared animal.

In many of Al's videos he discusses his behavior with his snakes and his reasoning behind it, all has seemed perfectly sound to me. He comments multiple times about how people give him a hard time about his speech patterns and the long pauses, and points out that it is due to most of his focus being on the deadly snakes in the room and not on the video, and also that if people are bothered by it they can stop watching because attention to the animals takes priority. He is not just oblivious to what is going on around him. He has also discussed how his calm demeanor does not mean that he doesn't take them seriously, he just knows that panic in an already risky situation will only make things worse. I have seen snakes strike inches from his fingers and he hardly flinches, not because he is ignorant of the risks but because flipping out over it would make a serious bite even more likely.

I will admit that some of his videos seem like he is taking major, possibly unnecessary, risks. However, I strongly believe that the education he is bringing to the public is absolutely valuable enough to overlook that. As others have pointed out, if he places himself in harms way that is nobody's problem but his own. The fact that he talks to and interacts with the snakes, Elvis in particular, as though they are the family dog does strike some as reckless, but I think it drives the point home that these are wonderful animals and his love for them rubs off on the viewers. If this is what it takes to help people see HOTs as amazing instead of evil I am all for it.

The original poster made a comment about him being "just a hobbyist". We are talking about a man who is maintaining a huge collection, a large percentage of which are sent to zoos and other educational facilities. He is assisting heavily in venom research, biological studies, and breeding to preserve populations that are threatened in the wild. I don't see it as relevant whether his primary career is snake-keeping or whether he has just chosen to puruse it as a "hobby" he is absolutely not just some guy keeping snakes for fun.

My thinking on it is, until I have as much experience as he does with his animals, I am really in no position to judge.

First bold comment. How do you know this is actually legally binding? There are tons of lawsuits placed and won on a yearly basis that the 'idiots' win. A lot of facts proving you wrong that it will save him.

Second bold comment. Are you completely sure? Last time I checked very few States have any sort of restriction or licensing program in place. It's mostly done on the municipal and or county level and I doubt every single one in the Country has what you're claiming.

Third comment. This is a very bold statement to make. Considering a lot of the scientific community when dealing with those issues have very strict protocol on the animals they use for their programs. Do you know for a fact he participates in these with well known organizations or just says he does by keeping them?
I know one of his students extremely well so I'll be asking her.

[lady_bug87]

First bold comment. How do you know this is actually legally binding? There are tons of lawsuits placed and won on a yearly basis that the 'idiots' win. A lot of facts proving you wrong that it will save him.

Second bold comment. Are you completely sure? Last time I checked very few States have any sort of restriction or licensing program in place. It's mostly done on the municipal and or county level and I doubt every single one in the Country has what you're claiming.

Third comment. This is a very bold statement to make. Considering a lot of the scientific community when dealing with those issues have very strict protocol on the animals they use for their programs. Do you know for a fact he participates in these with well known organizations or just says he does by keeping them?
I know one of his students extremely well so I'll be asking her.

I love when you give the Coles notes versions of these long posts.

[D Grade]

As a relatively new member of the snake keeping crowd, and also a regular viewer of Al's videos, I can say that at least for me his videos never stike me as reckless or sensational. He is incredibly brave, I will give him that, but don't you have to be to work with deadly animals?

I can see the argument that his videos promote other's seeing HOT keeping as no big deal, but I would have to side with those arguing that he does have a disclaimer and is in no way responsible for other people being idiots. He also frequently disucsses the dangers involved and the measures he takes to prevent accidents. His film techniques are deceptive. With the exception of his Elvis videos he is almost always at least 2 feet if not farther from the tank with the camera fully zoomed in. Yes it looks like he is an inch from their face but that is not the case. He also frequently uses a chest harness for the camera, he is not holding the camera with one hand and tongs with the other, the camera is secured in place and not being held. Elvis is an exception because he knows him well enough to safely allow him more freedom, at least as safely as possible given the circumstances.

I just don't believe that the fact that one person doing something may inspire others to do something crazy should limit their options or freedom of expression. I believe that all states have restrictions and license requirements in place for keeping of HOTs as it is, it is not like some 12 year old is going to go buy a cobra because they watched a Youtube video. If a person wants to do something as stupid as going out and catching a wild venomous snake to keep for fun, I don't think a Al's videos will be the factor that pushes them over the edge. That kind of person is going to wind up in trouble with or without others' example. I have watched a ton of his videos and of course I think it would be remarkable to be in his shoes and get to work with the animals he keeps, but I am smart enough to know I am nowhere near in a position to do so and that path would require years and years of training and preparation and would still be a potentially fatal decision. All I he has ever inspired be to do is feel overjoyed that there are people like him doing what they are doing to promote acceptance of such a universally feared animal.

In many of Al's videos he discusses his behavior with his snakes and his reasoning behind it, all has seemed perfectly sound to me. He comments multiple times about how people give him a hard time about his speech patterns and the long pauses, and points out that it is due to most of his focus being on the deadly snakes in the room and not on the video, and also that if people are bothered by it they can stop watching because attention to the animals takes priority. He is not just oblivious to what is going on around him. He has also discussed how his calm demeanor does not mean that he doesn't take them seriously, he just knows that panic in an already risky situation will only make things worse. I have seen snakes strike inches from his fingers and he hardly flinches, not because he is ignorant of the risks but because flipping out over it would make a serious bite even more likely.

I will admit that some of his videos seem like he is taking major, possibly unnecessary, risks. However, I strongly believe that the education he is bringing to the public is absolutely valuable enough to overlook that. As others have pointed out, if he places himself in harms way that is nobody's problem but his own. The fact that he talks to and interacts with the snakes, Elvis in particular, as though they are the family dog does strike some as reckless, but I think it drives the point home that these are wonderful animals and his love for them rubs off on the viewers. If this is what it takes to help people see HOTs as amazing instead of evil I am all for it.

The original poster made a comment about him being "just a hobbyist". We are talking about a man who is maintaining a huge collection, a large percentage of which are sent to zoos and other educational facilities. He is assisting heavily in venom research, biological studies, and breeding to preserve populations that are threatened in the wild. I don't see it as relevant whether his primary career is snake-keeping or whether he has just chosen to puruse it as a "hobby" he is absolutely not just some guy keeping snakes for fun.

My thinking on it is, until I have as much experience as he does with his animals, I am really in no position to judge.

Good post and I agree with a majority of what you say. The hot laws from states vary greatly. In Florida (or at least Dade County), you are required 1000 hours of venomous training from a certified keeper before you can even legally hook a hot. In Arizona all you need is a hunting license, a max catch of 4 per individual species, and to keep your hands off the protected species (Banded Rock, Twin Spot, Western Massasauga, and Ridge Nose Rattle Snakes, Gila's, and one species of Garter). I guess I can be classified as one of the "stupid idiots" because I do go out and herp on the weekends to find snakes and I do interact with them. Two weekends ago we had one heck of a night where we found seven Crotalus Cerastes Cercobombus and one C. Scutulatus. We kept one Cerco and the Scutulatus over night to give them water, take pics, and admire them and then released them the next night the same place we found them. In no way did Al or any other hot keeper influence my decision to do that, simply my love and passion for these creatures and the excitement for finding them.

Now the night I finally find a C. Molossus, I cant guarantee Ill be letting that one go. :)

[kiiarah]

First bold comment. How do you know this is actually legally binding? There are tons of lawsuits placed and won on a yearly basis that the 'idiots' win. A lot of facts proving you wrong that it will save him.

Second bold comment. Are you completely sure? Last time I checked very few States have any sort of restriction or licensing program in place. It's mostly done on the municipal and or county level and I doubt every single one in the Country has what you're claiming.

Third comment. This is a very bold statement to make. Considering a lot of the scientific community when dealing with those issues have very strict protocol on the animals they use for their programs. Do you know for a fact he participates in these with well known organizations or just says he does by keeping them?
I know one of his students extremely well so I'll be asking her.


In answer to your first counterpoint, perhaps I could have worded that better. What I meant to indicate is that he does at least make an attempt to let people know that the way he handles his HOTs, or keeping them at all for that matter, is not meant to be imitated based on what is seen in his videos. He points this out in the body of his videos frequently too and at least attempts to ensure that others know it is really no joking matter and not to be taken lightly. I wasn't attempting to argue that he is protected by his disclaimer, just that he makes the disclaimer clear to his viewers in order to at least attempt to prevent any idiotic things they may decide to try based on what they see.

As far as lawsuits go, there is always a chance a ridiculous lawsuit can be won and if he were sued that would be the risk he is taking in sharing his passion. I have no involvement in whether he puts himself at legal risk, that is his choice to make. Keeping large constrictors in the home puts one in a similar legal grey area, sure you have a right to keep them but if it gets out and hurts someone you can also be sued. That being said I rarely see this given as a reason an experienced keeper should not have or share the fact that they keep such an animal. What I do have a say in is my own actions, and whether or not I make a bad decision based on something I saw him do, as do all his viewers. The burden of responsibility lies with the audience in large part. Now as to whether he is depicting the HOT keeping community as irresponsible is another argument entirely, but what I meant to indicate above is that I do not feel that he can be blamed if someone takes the information he presents, disregards his warnings, and gets themselves an ER trip. This of course is just my opinion, but I don't feel that he is being negligent or encouraging others to follow his example at all.

As for state reglations I did find what appears to be a good (if up to date) resource that lists all states along with a designation as to whether venomous reptiles are banned, partially banned, require a license, or are not regulated at all. Summary of State Laws Relating to Private Possession of Exotic Animals (http://www.bornfreeusa.org/b4a2_exotic_animals_summary.php) I think I counted five states that have no state system in place, all others require at minimum a license or permit. The ones that are unregulated by the state default to county or city law which may still govern the keeping of any HOTS. I haven't done a ton of research into where they are legal and under what guidelines, as I don't plan to own one, but I have done some research on keeping them in general and it sounds like it isn't that easy to obtain one without having some sort of proof that you can legally keep them, or in unrestricted states that you are able to responsibly care for them. Most breeders and vendors understand the trouble they would be in for selling these species without asking the right questions of the potential buyer. I suppose anyone can bypass the laws and obtain one if they are determined, but I still would argue that it isn't something a person can easily run out and get on a whim. I agree with you though that it would be interesting to see some statistics on how many people have gotten into HOTs without the necessary experience and encountered problems. Maybe I just have a hard time believing it is something anyone would even attempt without knowing what they are doing.

Regarding the last statement you pointed out. I wanted to clarify that he doesn't produce antivenin himself. I have heard him refer in his videos to being in some way involved in certain research, but in what ways I cannot say as he didn't elaborate. He may just be close with some people in the industry and compare notes. As for many of his animals being in zoos and other facilities I am certain, as he has numerous videos where he discusses where the animals are going to be sent or films the bagging process before they are shipped out. Much of his collection exists outside of his home. I believe it was in the Viperkeeper 101 video that he address how many snakes he has and specifically mentions that many are located in other facilities. Now I certainly couldn't say that I have independently verified his claims, but I trust his claims. That being said, what most impresses me is his efforts in breeding and assisting in maintaining populations.

That you for the feedback by the way, from what I have seen you know your stuff and have always been very helpful when I have needed input. I am by no means an expert, would love to be one day but that would be a long time from now. I guess I just felt the need to chime in and point out some really wonderful things that he is bringing to his audience. I agree that people can be inspired to do stupid things, and that is a shame, but I would really hate to see people like him forced to stop sharing their knowlege and passion simply because a few people lacked enough common sense to make the right choices. :)

[kiiarah]

Good post and I agree with a majority of what you say. The hot laws from states vary greatly. In Florida (or at least Dade County), you are required 1000 hours of venomous training from a certified keeper before you can even legally hook a hot. In Arizona all you need is a hunting license, a max catch of 4 per individual species, and to keep your hands off the protected species (Banded Rock, Twin Spot, Western Massasauga, and Ridge Nose Rattle Snakes, Gila's, and one species of Garter). I guess I can be classified as one of the "stupid idiots" because I do go out and herp on the weekends to find snakes and I do interact with them. Two weekends ago we had one heck of a night where we found seven Crotalus Cerastes Cercobombus and one C. Scutulatus. We kept one Cerco and the Scutulatus over night to give them water, take pics, and admire them and then released them the next night the same place we found them. In no way did Al or any other hot keeper influence my decision to do that, simply my love and passion for these creatures and the excitement for finding them.

Now the night I finally find a C. Molossus, I cant guarantee Ill be letting that one go. :)

Thanks D, and I hope I didn't come across as argumentative as it certainly was not my intention, but it is just so frustrating that the responsible keepers get blamed for other idiots getting themselves hurt or killed. It would be like saying that if a friend of mine comes over, meets my ball python and falls in love with them, then rushes out to buy one and proceeds to put them in an unheated tank with a single hide, that I am at fault because I sparked their interest. I am convinced that the long present prejudice against snakes is a result of ignorance and myth. If the people who work closely with the most feared species have to hide their interactions with them from the world because the kid next door might go and get himself killed, how are we to change people's views?

What Al's videos show me is that these are misunderstood animals. Deadly, of course, but still misunderstood. They want the same things we want, and they have a defense that we must be unfalteringly respectful of, but they are far from evil or deserving of being massacred as many seem to believe. He never suggests that anyone should get a cobra and treat it like the family dog, but the fact that he is able to interact with his in the way he does is eye-opening. How could anyone hate an animal like Elvis, especially after watching how calm Al is around him? I think anyone with a shred of common sense realizes that he is able to do this because he has been caring for him for years and has learned to read him. That behavior would not fly with a wild specimen for an instant, but it does prove that they are not so mindless and blood-thirsty as people would like to think.

I love the point you made about having interacted with a HOT just recently, and that this was in no way Al's fault. I feel that I would do the same in your position, but it would be absolutely at my own risk and if I got bit I would place the blame on nobody but myself. What would motivate me to do so is the fact that I no longer see these animals as something to be feared, just as something to be understood and admired. Understanding them means knowing their capabilities as well as your own in terms of what you can safely accomplish.

[D Grade]

Great post bud, pretty much nailed every point on the head. And thanks for the kind words, I am very passionate about these animals as you are as well, whether hot or not. I will admit my interest is more on the hot side since most of our herping efforts are focused on finding local Crotalus species, but in the end we love them all the same (or should). Its refreshing seeing folks who have no interest in keeping hots actually seeing nothing wrong with Al's methods and making valid points.

[kiiarah]

I couldn't really say that I have no interest in HOT keeping. :P I guess you could say that I while I would absolutely love to be in Al's shoes, I am sensible enough to know it is not something you get into just because it would be "neat". More accurately, I would love to have the opportunities and experience he has. If I were to meet someone who could mentor me, and had the time, money and ability to safely pursue it I would be very very tempted. I have no interest in pursuing it without the proper education, no less with two young children in the house.

I also realize that there is a flip side to every coin. Watching Al's videos most of what you see is the fun, the quirky, and the exciting aspects of HOT keeping. It makes sense, this is what his viewers want to see. Nobody wants to see the electricity bills his collection produces, or the feeder or antivenin costs. Nobody wants to see the stress of trying to safely treat a potentially deadly animal when they are sick. Similarly, nobody sees the few times that he has had close calls, or the few bites he has gone through. I am sure it is not all fun and games. Just important to keep a healthy perspective about it I guess. Would I love to be up close and have the honor of caring for such amazing species, of course! At the same time though, keeping animals like that just for fun does seem irresponsible to me. As he says repeatedly, venomous snakes are not pets.

Now if I got the experience and got connected up with someone who could help me do it in a way that is somehow helping the species involved (say in a rescue type setting) that would be another matter entirely. For right now, I just have to convince my husband that we could one day work up to keeping a burm or retic and that is a task in itself. ;) You should have seen how resistant he was to a ball python! "A snake in the house?! No way!" but I won in the end and now he loves him too. :D

I notice that you are in Tuscon, I am about four hours away from you in the Verde Valley area just to the other side of Phoenix. I haven't been fortunate enough to encounter any rattlers in our area, just one particularly tempermental gopher snake on the back porch a couple years ago who managed to instill in our cat an enduring mistrust of all things snake, lol. Do you find them often out in Tuscon?

[D Grade]

Yeah we have hit or miss nights. Most unfortunately have been miss but were still heading out every weekend to see what we can find. As far as rattlesnakes are concerned, we've found two Atrox on seperate weeks and two weekends ago we had one hell of a night finding seven sidewinders on one stretch of road and a gorgeous Scutulatus to top off the night. Since then weve only found a few Long Nose, a few Night snakes, and probably missed a Coral or Pyromelana on Friday as we drove past it and lost it in the grass.

We're looking at herping up at Superstition Mountains next weekend or the following so we'll be in your neck of the woods. Good to see fellow AZ'ers here on the forums.

[kiiarah]

That is so cool, I rarely see anything out here but then again I rarely go out walking so that may have a lot to do with it. I do see lots of king snakes and gopher snakes at work. I work at a resort, so between guests and employees, there are about 150 eyes out there at any given time. Of course, if anyone sees anything they alert the front desk so it works out great. I have sort of gained a reputation for being the go to for any needed snake wrangling. It is probably the best job perk.

Actually the first wild snake I ever picked up was one that a guest reported there. The engineering tech who took the call came back to the lobby and I overheard him complaining about how he was supposed to move this big gopher snake. He was making comments like "I don't like snakes" "What do they expect me to do" and "All I have is a rake", so without really thinking I told him I would help. He commented on how lame he was going to look going to find back up and coming back with a tiny (5'1'') 20 something year old female to help him lol. I knew I couldn't let him use a rake to try to move the snake, and I didn't have tools either, so I just resolved that I would have to pick it up and risk a bite.

The snake was not happy either, hissing like crazy and about 5-6 ft long. Even the guests were concerned and kept asking thing like "Won't it bite you?" To which I replied "I hope not, but we will find out". Turns out he didn't bite, and it was a really cool experience just approaching and handling something everyone else was terrified of and walking away with not so much as a scratch. It is what really drove home that people have misguided views of them as a species. I realized on the way to help him that I had never even picked up a wild snake by myself before, which made me pretty nervous, but I knew I couldn't just leave a person who admittedly is uncomfortable with them try to move him without injuring him, especially with just a rake! Now I have all the guys at work in the loop that if a snake is found they need to bring it to me. I come back from days off all the time and hear "Where were you, we found a snake yesterday". :)

[D Grade]

Wow, we need to come up to your neck of the woods. I have a Cali King and a Gopher at home but it never takes away the thrill of finding them in the wild. And good for you for having the courage to do that, that says alot about your knowledge and passion for snakes. I would be very impressed with a 20y/o girl wrangling a defensive gopher to save it from harm.

[kiiarah]

Aww thanks ^_^. Well at that point I wasn't even really thinking of what may happen to me. I just knew the guy who was called to move it well enough to know he wouldn't lose any sleep if it were harmed in the process. I guess I sort of felt like I had no choice.

Ever since then, I have no fear of picking up wild non-venomous. I mean what is the worst that could really happen even if they did bite, right? Actually, I am wondering lately if I may have too little of a response. The other day I walked outside and there was a little juvi king snake lying in a culvert basking and my first thought was "aww look how cute", took a good 15 seconds to register that it was an actual snake that I could visit with and not just something I was seeing on the fourms or on Youtube lol. Sure hope I would have more of a reaction if it were venomous, but somehow I think I may not.

I will say this though, once that gopher snake was safely relocated (I held him while the security tech drove the golf cart) I noticed that I was actually shaking. It sort of hit me at once after he was safe, like "oh my gosh, I really just did that". This was all before I got my little guy so I had no experience at all at the time lol. I work in the Sedona area so we have lots of wildlife out there. You should definitely come out this way some time. Temperatures have been perfect lately, bet you would find tons of cute critters out right around dusk. :)

[D Grade]

Yeah I always find myself with an adrenaline rush after finding something. We found an L.G. Pyromelana (AZ Mountain King) and the adrenaline was through the roof. First time finding one in the wild. The rush is part of the passion. :)

[LiL Zap]

When I saw the title of this thread, I immediately knew who you were talking about. The man is knowledgable about snakes no doubt about it but I don't agree with the unnecessary risks that he takes at times.