Are rear fanged "hots"

[Feed'em All]

Ok, I guess BWSmith and your great post (have beliefs) encouraged me to (I hope) start a thead where I am almost sure, not everybody will agree.
Here is the thing, I read here several times that a rear fanged would be great as a first hot, but the fact is that a rear fanged, although it has venom, doesn't really act like a hot.
When I was I little boy my dad gave me a Philodryas Baroni , that god knows who sold it to him (eventually escaped, found by a neighboor, killed with a shovel), and I freehandled it for like a month. I found they were rear fanged a year and a half ago, when I felt in love again with herps.

So, the big question is...SHALL WE CONSIRED FANGED AS HOTS???
People, feel free to speak your mind.
Cheers, Martin

[Matt]

rear fanged are definely hot snakes. Most species have a milder venom and the delivery mechanism is not all that good...but they are definitely venomous snakes.
we cant say a blanket statement, like all rear fanged are not venomous!
What about the boomslang.....its rear fanged, and has taken human casualties!

what do you mean "doesnt really act like a hot"?

thats my opinion anyways!

[Feed'em All]

Rear fanged ARE venomous, that's out of discussion.
My point is, as a child I handled a p.baroni with my bare hands, I have seen ppl handling boomslangs with their bare hands.
Would you imagine how safe could it be, let's say, handle a bothrops with your bare hands?

Originally posted by Matt

what do you mean "doesnt really act like a hot"?



rear fanged don't use to stay coiled, they aren't that alert as hots (there are always exceptions). To sum things up, I can't see which kind of "preparation" a rear fanged gives to you to take a next step (for example, a bitis, a crotalus, etc...)
Anyway, I liked to disagree with you Matt... :D

ps: I guess you all have noticed i didn't name elapids, that's why I 've never seen thier behavior, so I guess I can't talk too much about them. ;)

[J_Riley]

I think the problem here is people are looking for a jack of all trades species, a single species that will prepare for any and all future hots, and that is just flawed reasoning.

Boomslangs, while deadly to humans, just aren't terribly agressive by nature. A black mamba, on the other hand, is the complete opposite.

There are only degrees of preparedness and species that are NOT the hot species you're "training" for is going to leave you short in terms of being 100% prepared to handle it. Nothing will prepare you adequately for keeping a Gaboon Viper but a Gaboon Viper. You can gain insight into SOME of it's possible characteristics with a different species, but it won't cover everything.

You can study and study brain surgery texts and perform thousands of operations on goat brains, but that only goes so far in preparing you to operate on a human brain.

[BWSmith]

Getting back to the subject of rear fangs. It is interestingthat you brought up the subject. Many rear fangs can be dangerous to humans, there is of course the Boomer and Twig. But a Psammophis has incredibly large fangs and a very potent venom (maybe not deadly, but severe neurological effects have been reported). What about the Egyptian Coluber sp? Pretty innocuous little snake. In fact, someone had one in a pet shp near me. They called me up to take once it bit their handler and sent him to the hospital. Pure neurotoxin. And months later, he is still having residual effects.

How about this one: A good portion of Elaphe are venomous and contain neurotoxins. "What a cute Beauty Snake, guess what?"

Yes, rear fangs are hots. And there are alot more rear fangs with functional venom glands out there then people realize. :D

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Here's one not many people think about..
"In the wild, Thamnophis elegans is known to feed on mice. How can a relatively small, inoffensive Colubrid possibly take down and devour a mouse in the wild ? According to studies, these snakes are apparently capable of delivering the contents of the Duvernoy's gland to the prey item and thus immobilize it prior to consumption. All that the Western garter snake lacks is enlarged teeth or grooved fangs to channel the Duvernoy's contents into the prey item. However, through a chewing action, Thamnophis elegans is able to envenomate its prey item and immobilize it prior to swallowing. The contents of the Duvernoy's gland seeps into open wounds produced by the maxillary teeth and temporarily immobilizes the prey."
Alot of people feel affects from bites more so than others, for example a bee sting; Me nothing would really happen except the fact It hurt for like 5 minutes, other people could and have died.
(Just an example)
Another personal bit is I've kept a select few species of Thamnophis and been bitten as well.. T. s. sirtalis are what I mostly kept, and bites from them I had no reaction except the continuous bleeding but a bite from T. brachystoma made my hand swell up to a slight degree. T. elegans are said to be the species most people react to but I have yet to see any results from a personal bite.

Now, I know this isn't technically what you were looking for being they aren't rear fanged but all in all, it shows you dont have to have hyperdermic needles to be considered venomous..
Gila?
Hope it made sense.....
Xain

[Gregg M]

Rear fanged snakes dont stay coiled???? Try telling that to a hyped up mangrove........ I have had "problem snakes" before but I think the worst one I have had to deal with was a mangrove....... What a rear fanged snake like a mangrove can teach you is how not to get bit....... Although not the most potent of the rear fangs I still would not want to catch a fang from one....

[BWSmith]

Actually in my experience, rear fangs tend not to coil nearly as much. But they will "S" up in a heartbeat if they are so inclined. And they can get a decent strike range fromt he "S".

[Feed'em All]

OK ppl, what I intend to bring up here is the fact that when the word "hot" is pronounced, most ppl (included me, dunno why) think about vipers or elapids, and I 've read a lot about ppl giving advice of getting a rear fanged before a viperid, or an elapid.
I really think that isn't good advice, is like if you wanna learn japanese, but instead you learn russian, not only you won´t understood a word in japanese, but also will be trying to make sense about what a poor japanese guy is saying by translating the message to russian.
OK, I dunno if I made myself cleared or if I $%&$ed up things even more, the thing is I can't see rear fanged as a preparation to o"other" hots.
Martin.

[Matt]

i dont think there is any good answer to something that can prepare you for a venomous snake. I think anything is practice as long as you treat is like a venomous snake (use all equipment and never get bit).

people try too hard to find the "perfect preparation" snake so they can feel better about temselves and be confident about getting a hot. There is no one answer.

I think SOME rear fanged are perfectly fine to start with, but shouldnt be treated like "if you can deal with that, they you can deal with any hot"
whats wrong with starting with a rear fanged to get some more practical experience....its not a "solve all" solution, but i dont see any harm in it

baby steps!!!!!!

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

...Personally, Not many people will agree-if any, I think if you want to start keeping hots get a hot. Don't get one you don't really want, like say you are only into Atrox or Naja and turn around and get a Copper or a Coral, simply because they are not the animals you want; the animals have different temperments; requires different care; ect. Which may turn out improper care for the animals you got or boredom. Asking other people if you are ready for a hot simply means you are not. Asking another person what kind to get, simply means you aren't ready. (excluding the fact you know you're not ready, you're just Curious).

When you decide you are ready for hots and you have one you want, don't start with a "starter" hot. Get the one you want.

Just a 'lil personal bit that I went through back in the day, and this is just my opinion...

Xain

[Matt]

Xain,
I partially agree with that, BUT, just because someone has kept snakes for many years, that doesnt mean they should go get a dendroaspis, cause they are most interested in that, and that is what they want.
Just like Atrox would not be a good first hot! As much as you may be less interested in a certain species, I think a natural progession is necessary.
This doesnt mean you nned to buy one. It would be perfect to find a mentor that can show you the ropes and let you work with hots until you naturally progess to the next step where you are confident you can handle an atrox (or whatever).

just my opinion!