Taxonomy / Phylogeny

[ARCH3R]

I read an article on the many cages in North American Colubrid Snake classifications. It never went into specifics and I'm having a bit of trouble finding anything on the subject.

My questions are, what are the causes of these changes between genus's / tribes of the sub family colubrinae? Lampropeltis, Coelognathus, Pituophis, Pantherophis, specifically.

Also what are the phenotypic differences? Generally I can make a solid guess off previous experience but you could line up a bull snake, pine snake, fox snake, rat snake etc. and maybe even a corn snake and I couldn't tell you the differences. (Besides possible color in certain species)

Any links would be helpful too.

[FWK]

This is something I've been trying to understand lately myself. The reason for all the changes is genetic research, ie molecular taxonomy. The old way to classify animals was to describe them physically. Scale counts, head structure, body structure, colors, patterns, etc. The new way is through genetic testing, specifically to trace evolutionary paths via computer modeling. At least that is how I understand it.

Here is a basic rundown of whats going on: A Brief Look At Reptile Taxonomy (http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Reptile-Care-For-Beginners/A-Brief-Look-At-Reptile-Taxonomy/)

Here (http://www.reticulatedpython.info/me/papers/how%20old%20word%20ratsnakes%20disperseds%20into%2 0the%20new%20world.pdf) is the big paper laying down the groundwork for Pantherophis and to a lesser degree Pituophis. There is another big paper by the same biologists (most notably Frank T. Burbrink) building further on this paper in regards to Pantherophis but I can't seem to find it without buying it.

Here (http://www.sierraherps.com/files/7014/0417/9007/Ruane_et_al_2014_Milksnake_phylogeny_final.pdf) is the paper on Lampropeltis, specifically Milk Snakes.

Here (http://home.gwu.edu/~rpyron/publications/Pyron_Burbrink_2009e.pdf) is the paper on Lampropeltis, specifically Kingsnakes.

Rat Snakes (Rats/Corns/Foxes) and Pits (Bulls/Gophers/Pines) are very different physically. Rats are slender relative to Pits. Rats have a very flat, well defined belly that along with a prehensile tail makes them excellent climbers. Pits are heavy bodied snakes that tend to stick to the ground. Pits have a larger head and a much more powerful bite to go along with it, they also have a very prominent rostral scale they use to dig around in leaf litter and soil. I find the easiest way to learn to spot the differences between snakes is like learning most anything, practice. Google pictures of Rat Snakes and look at dozens and dozens of them. Look at Rats Snakes until you can see them with your eyes closed. Then Google Pits. The odds are you'll notice differences right away.

[Rattlehead]

Interesting papers, thanks for sharing FWK!

[ARCH3R]

FWK- Thanks for the links. Especially the old world into new world ratsnake article as it was really informative.

When I originally posted I had noticed head shape, but the king rat threw me for a loop. However, the article you posted shines some light since its classified under elaphe.

Also looked into Burbrink and went to pubfacts.com to start downloading some info. I think that name is what I needed! Thanks again.

[lady_bug87]

Thanks as well. I was looking for some good taxonomy stuff to start with

[D Grade]

This is something I've been trying to understand lately myself. The reason for all the changes is genetic research, ie molecular taxonomy. The old way to classify animals was to describe them physically. Scale counts, head structure, body structure, colors, patterns, etc. The new way is through genetic testing, specifically to trace evolutionary paths via computer modeling. At least that is how I understand it.

Here is a basic rundown of whats going on: A Brief Look At Reptile Taxonomy (http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Reptile-Care-For-Beginners/A-Brief-Look-At-Reptile-Taxonomy/)

Here (http://www.reticulatedpython.info/me/papers/how%20old%20word%20ratsnakes%20disperseds%20into%2 0the%20new%20world.pdf) is the big paper laying down the groundwork for Pantherophis and to a lesser degree Pituophis. There is another big paper by the same biologists (most notably Frank T. Burbrink) building further on this paper in regards to Pantherophis but I can't seem to find it without buying it.

Here (http://www.sierraherps.com/files/7014/0417/9007/Ruane_et_al_2014_Milksnake_phylogeny_final.pdf) is the paper on Lampropeltis, specifically Milk Snakes.

Here (http://home.gwu.edu/~rpyron/publications/Pyron_Burbrink_2009e.pdf) is the paper on Lampropeltis, specifically Kingsnakes.

Rat Snakes (Rats/Corns/Foxes) and Pits (Bulls/Gophers/Pines) are very different physically. Rats are slender relative to Pits. Rats have a very flat, well defined belly that along with a prehensile tail makes them excellent climbers. Pits are heavy bodied snakes that tend to stick to the ground. Pits have a larger head and a much more powerful bite to go along with it, they also have a very prominent rostral scale they use to dig around in leaf litter and soil. I find the easiest way to learn to spot the differences between snakes is like learning most anything, practice. Google pictures of Rat Snakes and look at dozens and dozens of them. Look at Rats Snakes until you can see them with your eyes closed. Then Google Pits. The odds are you'll notice differences right away.

This is a great post. I agree completely and I too used to have trouble identifying colubrid from colubrid. Check out different subspecies (especially ones that catch your eye) and youll start noticing the difference too. FWK nailed it with the pits vs rats.

Milks and Kings are suprisingly easy to tell apart as well. An obvious trait is that there are many more species of Milks that carry the tri-banded "coral snake" mimic than Kings. Kings tend to be more hardy and girthy than Milks while Milks like the Honduran will get the length. Theres also some head differences as well, Kings seem to have more of a smoother transition from head to neck while the Milks have a bit more angle at their jaw line (like a Coral Snake). Kings seem to have stubbier heads with smaller noses, Milks seem to have longer flatter heads with more round snouts.

Attitudes and temperament are pretty distinguishable as well, at least in my Milk and King. My Milk is a very choosey eater, eats well but he has to smell it 100 times and get the perfect strike angle to make a grab at it. My King on the other hand is B-lining it to the mouse as soon as the scent is picked up regardless of anything. My King is also extremely tame once in the hands and very inquisitive. My Milk is flightly, occasionally musks, and just wants out of my hands.