Snake Identification : Istanbul Turkey

[alpha]

Hello all,

I am new to this place and hope to find useful information here.

Can someone please help me identify this snake ? I saw it in Istanbul Turkey.

Thanks

[Aaron_S]

No clue. It's too far to really tell. The head LOOKS like a viper of sorts but it's so difficult to tell that I'm just making a random guess.

[alpha]

i could not get a better picture as it just stopped for a little while and then ran away ...

[alpha]

Here is a zoomed in picture , hope it helps ...

[Albert Clark]

Definitely a viper! What locale were you in?

[CrotalusR#1]

Defiantly not a viper, the vipers in turkey are all pretty distinguishable from the non venomous. Looks like some sort of whip snake.

[FWK]

Hello alpha! That's an interesting critter you've got there, I'm really not sure what it is but I do have some ideas. It doesn't look quite right to be a Viper to me either (the tail looks rather long and thin, the body to lean and the head is just weird lol) but I'm not willing to rule a Viper out just yet, you seem to be within the range of Macrovipera sp. and the picture is fuzzy enough that a specimen with a muted pattern could slip by. My initial thought was either the very common Dice Snake (Natrix tessellata) or, as CrotalusR#1 suggests, a Whip (possibly Hemorrhois nummifer?). If you could give us a bit more detail about the snake and where exactly it was found I'll look at it more in depth in a couple hours when I have more time. Would you describe as having smooth scales or rough (keeled)? Is the pupil round or elliptical like a cats eye? An elliptical eye does not necessarily mean it is a Viper. Roughly who long is it? What sort of habitat was it found near? Grassy fields, water, bushes, etc. Also, if it is possible, uploading the picture to a photo hosting site and linking it could help big time, this forum compresses photos far more than a photo hosting site will.

[CrotalusR#1]

If you take a look at the eyes in the pic you can tell there almost protruding out exactly like a garter snake dose, kinda hard to explain but any one here who has kept them will know exactly what I'm taking about and that is NOT somthing the native vipers share. That and along with what FWK said, very long tail, which is why I was thinking whiptail..

[PatrickT]

You guys crack me up. Its natrix tesselata we also have them in germany but they are rare. Totally harmless. They live close to water, eats mostly fish and frogs. You guys need more knowledge about european snakes. Its totally harmless.

[SnoopySnake]

You guys crack me up. Its natrix tesselata we also have them in germany but they are rare. Totally harmless. They live close to water, eats mostly fish and frogs. You guys need more knowledge about european snakes. Its totally harmless.

We need more knowledge about European snakes? Seriously? How much do you know about North American snakes?

I don't know what it is, and I'm not gonna take a guess without better pictures.

[PatrickT]

Its natrix tesselata. The eyes, head shape and coloration is a 100% hit.

http://www.sevcikphoto.com/images/Natrix-tessellata-2.jpg

http://www.fotografianaturalistica.org/Album/Rettili/Natrix%20tessellata/natrice_tessellata_biscia_natrix_dice_snake_%20(4) .jpg

The only other species that looks like this would be the closely Natrix maura. But Natrix maura lives in western europe. Both, Maura and tesselata live in germany, but are very rare. Tesselata is very common in greece, the entire balkan region and the istanbul region.

[PatrickT]

We need more knowledge about European snakes? Seriously? How much do you know about North American snakes?

I don't know what it is, and I'm not gonna take a guess without better pictures.

I think i´m pretty good in north american snake species as well. I can distinguish crotallus, copperheads, thamnophis, coluber, pantherophis, lampropheltis and coral snakes pretty good.

[pet_snake_78]

It's a king cobra

[FWK]

I agree with you PatrickT, Natrix tessellata was my initial thought as well. But I have zero hands on experience with this species and if I'm not completely confident in my ID I'll say so. Given the low quality of the photo and my lack of familiarity with European species I was not confident. I also agree I need to learn more about European species, and I'm working on that. You have piqued my curiosity, if you'd care to demonstrate just how superior your ability to ID North American species is over my ability to ID European species I have some pictures for you to consider.

[PatrickT]

I agree with you PatrickT, Natrix tessellata was my initial thought as well. But I have zero hands on experience with this species and if I'm not completely confident in my ID I'll say so. Given the low quality of the photo and my lack of familiarity with European species I was not confident. I also agree I need to learn more about European species, and I'm working on that. You have piqued my curiosity, if you'd care to demonstrate just how superior your ability to ID North American species is over my ability to ID European species I have some pictures for you to consider.

Ok i accept the challenge. :D

[FWK]

Excellent, I'll post them this evening when I get home.

[alpha]

thanks for the great responses everyone ... unfortunately I do not have a better picture but here are some details I can share:-

-- I saw the snake in Istanbul ( Asian side , in the district of Tuzla )
-- The snake was about 12 inches in size
-- It was on a jogging track besides a small lake
-- The jogging track is surrounded by grass on both sides
-- The snake was stationary and moved very little when touched it with a stick. When I moved away from it, it moved and slithered back into the grass
-- The next day I saw another snake on the same place. It was black and shiny and moved very fast. Could not get a picture. I am sharing this information, because it seems there are a lot of snakes in the area

[PatrickT]

thanks for the great responses everyone ... unfortunately I do not have a better picture but here are some details I can share:-

-- I saw the snake in Istanbul ( Asian side , in the district of Tuzla )
-- The snake was about 12 inches in size
-- It was on a jogging track besides a small lake
-- The jogging track is surrounded by grass on both sides
-- The snake was stationary and moved very little when touched it with a stick. When I moved away from it, it moved and slithered back into the grass
-- The next day I saw another snake on the same place. It was black and shiny and moved very fast. Could not get a picture. I am sharing this information, because it seems there are a lot of snakes in the area

Its definitly a natrix tesselata. She is harmless. :)

[CrotalusR#1]

Ok i accept the challenge. :D

Care if I post some to?

[PatrickT]

Care if I post some to?

I'm pretty sure that i can deal with it. Our education system in germany is one of best in the world and i had Leistungskurs Biologie. So bring it. :D

[CrotalusR#1]

I agree with you PatrickT, Natrix tessellata was my initial thought as well. But I have zero hands on experience with this species and if I'm not completely confident in my ID I'll say so. Given the low quality of the photo and my lack of familiarity with European species I was not confident. I also agree I need to learn more about European species, and I'm working on that. You have piqued my curiosity, if you'd care to demonstrate just how superior your ability to ID North American species is over my ability to ID European species I have some pictures for you to consider.



Great response to that person!!

I personally thought the way he responded was immature and arrogant.

[CrotalusR#1]

here ya go, no cheating!.... please use both common names and scientific names so every one here knows what your talking about.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5499/10570349844_68f7246422_k.jpg


https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7302/13905295068_66fa60c843_z.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5334/17280942078_d5e62c6922_z.jpg

there are 3 species in the last cage.

[FWK]

thanks for the great responses everyone ... unfortunately I do not have a better picture but here are some details I can share:-

-- I saw the snake in Istanbul ( Asian side , in the district of Tuzla )
-- The snake was about 12 inches in size
-- It was on a jogging track besides a small lake
-- The jogging track is surrounded by grass on both sides
-- The snake was stationary and moved very little when touched it with a stick. When I moved away from it, it moved and slithered back into the grass
-- The next day I saw another snake on the same place. It was black and shiny and moved very fast. Could not get a picture. I am sharing this information, because it seems there are a lot of snakes in the area

The proximity to water supports the case for Natrix tessellata. And its size indicates that it is a juvenile, which explains its proportions. I agree again with PatrickT, I think it is a Natrix tessellata.

[PatrickT]

here ya go, no cheating!.... please use both common names and scientific names so every one here knows what your talking about.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5499/10570349844_68f7246422_k.jpg


https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7302/13905295068_66fa60c843_z.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5334/17280942078_d5e62c6922_z.jpg

there are 3 species in the last cage.

A bit rough to expect that i would know your local names. I´m german. How am i suppossed to know your slangwords? I also said Natrix tesselata and did not call it Würfelnatter, how we name it.

So i will stick to scientific names.

All species you show are Viper genera.

The bright coloration looks like they are pretty young.

I would say first is crotalus viridis.

I would say the second is also a Crotalus viridis, because it has exactly the same markings on its head.

Well the 3rd picture...all look like subspecies from one form. They look similar to the first two but the markings are slightly different. They dont look exactly like viridis so i suppose they are crotalus oreganus. They are the closest to viridis.

[CrotalusR#1]

A bit rough to expect that i would know your local names. I´m german. How am i suppossed to know your slangwords? I also said Natrix tesselata and did not call it Würfelnatter, how we name it.

So i will stick to scientific names.

All species you show are Viper genera.

The bright coloration looks like they are pretty young.

I would say first is crotalus viridis.

I would say the second is also a Crotalus viridis, because it has exactly the same markings on its head.

Well the 3rd picture...all look like subspecies from one form. They look similar to the first two but the markings are slightly different. They dont look exactly like viridis so i suppose they are crotalus oreganus. They are the closest to viridis.




So you don't know what any of them are than? You have named the clades but not the actual subspecies names.. So if you where to guess you'd probably get one or 2 rite just because there are only so many in the clades but as of now you didn't get any of them rite. Also the one you said is young is a full grown adult that has produced, I understand the confusion tho with out knowing the species. So I believe you said you know yours crotalids? Seems like you could use some reaserch, As we all do but you mite want to rethink such bold statements before typing them.


There is no reason for an argument here like so many others, I posted a few animals, you didn't know them, that's that. There's no reason to contuie on between us. Thanks, take care.

[PatrickT]

So you don't know what any of them are than? You have named the clades but not the actual subspecies names.. So if you where to guess you'd probably get one or 2 rite just because there are only so many in the clades but as of now you didn't get any of them rite. Also the one you said is young is a full grown adult that has produced, I understand the confusion tho with out knowing the species. So I believe you said you know yours crotalids? Seems like you could use some reaserch, As we all do but you mite want to rethink such bold statements before typing them. Thanks, take care.

Looks like you must take a basic lesson in cladistic. I did not name the clade only. I named the specific species. The clade would be if i only said Crotalus. I can´t break it down to the sub species, so what?

You guys labelled a totally harmless natrix a viper. And you seriously attack me because i can name a snake from another continent only down to its species? Don´t get me wrong...but you were not even able to distinguish a natrix tesselata from a whipsnake.

I would understand your personal rant if i identified your snakes as thamnophis...that would be as far away from the real thing as you were.

But no hard feelings comrade. Are those yours? They look nice. I would not keep poison snakes but i like to watch them.

[alpha]

thanks for the identification everyone !

[CrotalusR#1]

Looks like you must take a basic lesson in cladistic. I did not name the clade only. I named the specific species. The clade would be if i only said Crotalus. I can´t break it down to the sub species, so what?

Wrong , Crotalus is the genus and the clade would be oreganus.


Again, the picture that dude posted was extremely out of focus and far way. A big difference between me and you on this forum is I never claimed to know a ton about snakes in Europe as you did in the North America ... All I said on that page was that it wasn't a viper, I suggested possible a whip snake, never said that's what it was.... Also it appears that you think just because it's a subspecies it doesn't matter which is definitely incorrect. Just naming the clade is pointless.


Yes the snakes are in my personal collection, and I agree no hard feelings, I look forward to future conversations and abates, hopefully no arguments ;)

Best regards.
CrotalusR#1!

[RAD House]

Crotalus the Germ is correct the taxonomic grouping goes genus then species. A clade is a group of animals that share an ancestrial species.

[PatrickT]

Of course i'm right. :D But i dont want argue about this.

[CrotalusR#1]

Crotalus the Germ is correct the taxonomic grouping goes genus then species. A clade is a group of animals that share an ancestrial species.

Huh, I have always heard people referred to say oreganus as the clade. Glad to know.. Thank you MesoCorney for explaining, that's appreciated.

Of course i'm right. But i dont want argue about this.

What a terribly arrogant and just cocky attitude, let's remember here, you said you knew your crotalus and couldn't name even one of the subspecies!!, I'd prefer not to have any more words between the 2 of us, you are unbelievably frustraitung.... You said on this thread that You guys need more knowledge about european snakes, that's just ridiculous, I'm sure I'm not the only one here who thinks that!


Again if your gunna make a bold statement you better be damn positive you can back it up and so far you have NOT been able to do so.

[PatrickT]

Huh, I have always heard people referred to say oreganus as the clade. Glad to know.. Thank you MesoCorney for explaining, that's appreciated.



What a terribly arrogant and just cocky attitude, let's remember here, you said you knew your crotalus and couldn't name even one of the subspecies!!, I'd prefer not to have any more words between the 2 of us, you are unbelievably frustraitung.... You said on this thread that , that's just ridiculous, I'm sure I'm not the only one here who thinks that!


Again if your gunna make a bold statement you better be damn positive you can back it up and so far you have NOT been able to do so.

To be fair, was i right or not? Was it viridis and oreganus?

[RAD House]

You could use clade with organus if you were talking about it as a group describing all the subspecies. They share a common ancestor. I know crotalus only well enough to know which snakes not to pick up, so I am curious as to what snakes you showed.

[FWK]

thanks for the identification everyone !

Anytime alpha, and if you do manage to grab a shot of that shiny black snake or any other critter be sure to share.

You guys labelled a totally harmless natrix a viper.

Only a couple people suggested it was a viper, Aaron made it very clear it was only a guess based on the shape of its head. Such a suggestion indicates caution would be wise, which is exactly why I stated I was unwilling to rule out a viper myself. CrotalusR#1 was confident it was not a viper, I do not know why you grouped him with "you guys." Albert was wrong but that is no reason to rub it in anyone's face. I would prefer to mistakenly call a non-venomous animal venomous than the other way around for safety reasons.

Our education system in germany is one of best in the world and i had Leistungskurs Biologie. So bring it. :D

You do have a point here, the US is lagging far behind the curve in this regard. But perhaps your curriculum should at some point include a course in humility. Ours absolutely should.

I personally thought the way he responded was immature and arrogant.

You should probably consider you own responses before throwing the first stone.

[CrotalusR#1]

You could use clade with organus if you were talking about it as a group describing all the subspecies. They share a common ancestor. I know crotalus only well enough to know which snakes not to pick up, so I am curious as to what snakes you showed.

Ok that's how I understood it, when I say clade I refer to all the subspecies in this case oreganus....

The snakes are...

Crotalus viridis nuntius

Crotalus oreganus abyssus

Crotalus oreganus concolor

Crotalus oreganus concolor/ Crotalus viridis nuntius (natural intergrade)


I put that last snake in there ( intergrade) just incase you happened to know those subspecies well, like a bonus lol....

To be fair, was i right or not? Was it viridis and oreganus?

I don't see how you where rite, naming a clade isn't what you said you could do, you said you new your crotalus so you should be able to name your oreganus subspecies. I can post more if you'd like , I didn't really start of "easy" lol. Oreganus subspecies can be a bitch to distinguish from each other

[Princess-dad]

FWK Well put lots of attitudes flying around . Lets all remember some of the posts made are being made be young men who havent learned better yet , also there is a culture and language barrier. But no matter how hard I try Im finding it hard to find an excuse for the older members comments . I have noticed that that one needs to be very careful what they post or risk a random attack . So more to the point Patrick you are not gonna be left alone if you keep comparing Europeans to North Americans . Especially letting us all know you feel superior . Everybody else that cant say you are young , cocky , to stupid to not argue , when all you are really doing is trying soothe your hurt feelings . Lets try being adults by ignoring the mistakes or rudeness of others instead of turning it into a **** measuring contest .

[RAD House]

Princess how can you try to scold people for being insulting and then call them cocky and stupid in the same post. Seems a bit like the rattlesnake calling the cobra unfriendly.

Crotalus those are some beautiful snakes you have there. We have a ton of prairie rattlers just east of us. I walked up on a den of at least six of them once. They were less than pleased and I was shaking in my boots.

[PatrickT]

Calm down please. It was not my intention to insult anyone here. I think its a cultural problem.

Most germans tend to be very direct. Propably so direct in a way that others feel insulted. That was in no way my intention.

[CrotalusR#1]

You should probably consider you own responses before throwing the first stone
Are you referring to a specific stament? I'm a little confused.


Crotalus those are some beautiful snakes you have there. We have a ton of prairie rattlers just east of us. I walked up on a den of at least six of them once. They were less than pleased and I was shaking in my boots.

Thank you, I would love to walk up on a den of parries!! Did you happen to snap any photos?

[RAD House]

I did not unfortunately. I just got out of there. I was a little too close for comfort. They were in a old Fox den so I didn't see them until I was nearly on top of them and they began to rattle.

[PatrickT]

I know that feeling. I helped my grandma in her garden and i brought old leafs on the compost. When i put it down i heared an angry hissing and there were three Vipera berus...It was cool to see them but i prefered a safe distance

[Roman]

Patrick what’s wrong with you? Until this thread you seemed to be such a nice guy, but most of your statements here where arrogant and rude (and provoked the responses you got).

First of all, you were right, it is a dice snake Natrix tessellata.

You guys need more knowledge about european snakes.
Why? This is an American (and Canadian) forum, so most users here are naturally interested in reptiles which are either living in this area or are available in the local pet trade. What kind of impact do you think have European snakes in the US pet market? Especially if you are lucky to get your hands on a captive breed European snake with all papers here in Europe. Even in Hamm (for you US guys the quarterly expo in Hamm/Germany claims to be the biggest Reptile expo in the world and it is at least the biggest expo in Europe) you have to be lucky to get more than Natrix natrix or Natrix tessellata, other local expos don’t have any European snakes most of the time.

I was surprised when I saw that CrotalusR#1 actually has a European viper in his collection, a Vipera ammodytes (Long-nosed Viper).

Your boast to be able to identify all these snakes only by a picture without any information of the locality where the picture was taken is optimistic to say the least. There are several rattlesnakes out there which even specialists would be hard pressed to identify only with a picture.

Our education system in germany is one of best in the world and i had Leistungskurs Biologie.

Agreed, our educational system seems to have improved over the last years, but “one of the best in the world” ?? Seriously, even the latest PISA survey didn’t place us under the top 10 (we were 16th over all), so nothing to brag about. And what does having biology as your “Leistungskurs” has anything to do with your skills in identifying snakes? During my time (which is some time ago) there were no snakes mentioned during the two years at all. Even during the academic studies in biology there was only one day of practice identifying some European snakes.

Being direct has nothing to do with arrogance or rudeness, your English is good enough to be able to phrase anything you said without being offensive.

So Patrick, please be nice again. We are some sort of representatives for Germany here, so there is no place for this kind of behavior here, there are enough a…s who still think they are the best of the best – we don’t need this kind of arrogant crap.

Roman