View Full Version : Can humidity be too high?
Ive had my rainbow for 2 weeks now. He was given to me along with a ball python. He is about a year old, best guess. Now he had a bad stuck shed but Ive have gotten all but one eye cap off so I wasnt worried to much about the super high humidity. But long term could be a problem. I bought a digital hygrometer 2 days ago and it reads 99 percent. Is this something to worry about??
He is in a tub so I imagine the only way to control it is too put in more holes?
Papertowel substrate, two hides with eco earth in them. A large water bowl.
The ambient temps have been a bit too cool. I just moved to the new house so havent gotten things squared away yet.
Yes, it can be too high. Not necessarily directly on the snake, but because it indicates extremely low ventilation, especially if it's been cooler in the tub. The low ventilation can cause RI and mold, and as I'm sure you've heard BRB's don't have the hardiest respiratory systems. Drill more holes, keep the moist hide. If it's not enough try baking the substrate to dry it out a bit, as long as you still have the really moist hide. I shoot for 75-85 on "dry side" and over 90 in moist hide.
bigsnakegirl785
05-05-15, 07:57 PM
No, humidity cannot be too high for BRBs. Babies need to be kept as close to 100% as you can possibly get it, and no less than 85% for optimal health. As adults, they can tolerate it as low as 75%, but I'd keep it higher like a baby's.
There IS, however, such a thing as being too wet with these guys. Dirty conditions and perhaps too low of humidity will give these guys an RI, but they aren't like most other species in captivity. High relative humidity (humidity in the air) does not cause problems, only helps. You want minimal ventilation to keep humidity up as well.
Having a lower humidity can work if you have a humid hide, but I wouldn't let it get below 75% at the lowest anywhere in the enclosure even with it in there.
Thanks Bigsnakegirl
ARCH3R, I have a bit of problem taking your advice when you say 90 degree hot hide. I do know for a fact that brbs do not tolerate temps above 85. Although I wasnt sure about exact humidity levels I have read the caresheets from Rainbows R Us
http://rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com/Care_Sheet_Brazilian_Rainbow_Boa.htm
They keep temps low, humidity up and low ventilation.
bigsnakegirl785
05-05-15, 08:22 PM
As far as the shed problem, it could either be due to an inaccurate hygrometer or the ambients aren't high enough to hold sufficient air droplets. You generally want to see condensation, which is a good indication of good humidity. You do still want enough humidity to escape so it doesn't stay wet in there all the time, though, to try to combat mold growth.
Thanks Bigsnakegirl
ARCH3R, I have a bit of problem taking your advice when you say 90 degree hot hide. I do know for a fact that brbs do not tolerate temps above 85. Although I wasnt sure about exact humidity levels I have read the caresheets from Rainbows R Us
http://rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com/Care_Sheet_Brazilian_Rainbow_Boa.htm
They keep temps low, humidity up and low ventilation.
You should read my post again, those aren't temps, they're percentages.
Big snake girl- I think we're saying the same thing in different ways, because I agree with everything but the ventilation. When I say ventilation I mean a line of holes drilled around the tub and a few lines on top so that enough air can circulate that it doesn't become so stuffy that bacteria and mold begin to form.
ARCH Im super sorry, didnt realize those were humidity percentages. I read them as temps and that threw me off.
I do have holes drilled in the sides and just a few in the top of the tub. Like I do with my balls.
He had the stuck shed when I got him two weeks ago. I am just doing damage control on the snakes now from their former owner.
He is eating great,which is always a relief, although so far has only taken live mice.
I do notice ive had mold in some of the humid hides that I use the eco earth in.(I keep small containers in all my tubs for all my snakes with eco earth). I recently switched from spaghum moss to the eco earth, Im thinking of switching back.
It's all good I wasn't very clear. And mold is definitely bad, that's all I was trying to avoid. Will these snakes handle as much humidity as you put them in? Yes, but, dehydration isn't the only thing that can cause harm to them.
SoPhilly
05-06-15, 09:55 AM
I'd switch back to sphangum moss, I've never had it mold.
Snakesitter
05-06-15, 02:13 PM
^^^ This. Great answer.
The high reading could be due to a poor gauge. Are you using one of the little spin dials?
Better to go with too few holes to start (easier to add than take away).
Good luck!
Snakesitter
05-06-15, 02:16 PM
Yes: http://cdn.home-designing.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Aquarium-Hardscape.jpg
;-)
bigsnakegirl785
05-06-15, 03:22 PM
I have yet to figure out how to completely stop mold in my BRB's enclosure. Both sphagnum moss and EcoEarth have molded on me. I have to completely switch the bedding out every few weeks, and it's getting expensive. I've tried adding more air holes, I've tried keeping the bedding completely dry and just spraying a little, I've tried getting a larger flexwatt to increase the area that's heated so maybe more will evaporate...nothing's worked for me. I'll probably see mold all the time until I start heating him with an RHP in his adult enclosure, which should dry out the bedding before it starts molding.
reptiledude987
05-06-15, 03:29 PM
Yes: http://cdn.home-designing.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Aquarium-Hardscape.jpg
;-)
This made me lol
I have a digital hygrometer that is brand new.I'm going to put a few more holes in the sides and see how that helps.
I havent decided if I am keeping him, he was given to me with the ball python I bought.
If I do I wonder if a cage like a boaphile or animal plastics might work better then a tub? He is pretty cool but my main focus is the balls and corns.
Albert Clark
05-06-15, 06:29 PM
Try using 100% cypress mulch. One of the top substrates.
SoPhilly
05-07-15, 11:45 AM
I have yet to figure out how to completely stop mold in my BRB's enclosure. Both sphagnum moss and EcoEarth have molded on me. I have to completely switch the bedding out every few weeks, and it's getting expensive. I've tried adding more air holes, I've tried keeping the bedding completely dry and just spraying a little, I've tried getting a larger flexwatt to increase the area that's heated so maybe more will evaporate...nothing's worked for me. I'll probably see mold all the time until I start heating him with an RHP in his adult enclosure, which should dry out the bedding before it starts molding.
Are you using the sphangum moss just in the hides or all over? I agree with Albert, I have my CRB on cypress mulch for substrate, moss in hides, misting system that automatically goes on when humidity drops to 90%, (she's in a modified aquarium until she's big enough for her adult pvc enclosure)and I've never had mold anywhere since switching to that setup. Also never had anything other than full sheds with eyecaps. The cypress resists mold really well. Thumbs-up recommend.
Snakesitter
05-07-15, 02:04 PM
Glad to help. ;-)
Snakesitter
05-07-15, 02:07 PM
Digital are usually pretty accurate. The reading may be so high because the setup is relatively new, so there is still lots of initial moisture present. After a thorough viv cleaning and moss change I get a high spike, too, which fades away over a few days.
Boaphile and Animal Plastics are the best vivs for this species.
Add holes if you feel appropriate, but I would do so sparingly...easy to add, hard to take away.
Good luck!
LOL, is that your planted tank Snakesitter? Its pretty awesome looking.
I really dont care for cypress mulch. The only stuff I can find is walmart stuff and its just a bunch of big sharp slivers.I dont even think its real cypress anymore.
Im really thinking about doing the bio substrate in my 40 gallon breeder until he is older. I will need help with setting it up to hold humidity. Probably build my own lid with plexiglass.
Our house is warm so will only need a basking site. I worry more about it being too warm for him.
bigsnakegirl785
05-07-15, 07:56 PM
Are you using the sphangum moss just in the hides or all over? I agree with Albert, I have my CRB on cypress mulch for substrate, moss in hides, misting system that automatically goes on when humidity drops to 90%, (she's in a modified aquarium until she's big enough for her adult pvc enclosure)and I've never had mold anywhere since switching to that setup. Also never had anything other than full sheds with eyecaps. The cypress resists mold really well. Thumbs-up recommend.
Yes I use a light cover of sphagnum moss, to try to aid in it drying out. The new stuff I just got gone over a month now and just now needs to be changed, but I have yet to see cypress mulch anywhere where I live. I have a choice between EcoEarth, moss, sand, aspen, and pine/cedar. Of which only two I would use for any of my snakes. Lowe's or similar may carry cypress mulch idk, but I don't know if I'd trust it either.
SoPhilly
05-07-15, 08:49 PM
This is the stuff I use, you should be able to find it at any petsmart or petco, or on amazon. If you're interested :)
Forest Floor™ Bedding (http://zoomed.com/db/products/EntryDetail.php?EntryID=39&DatabaseID=2&SearchID=5)
Snakesitter
05-08-15, 01:39 PM
Nope, internet photo. ;-)
For moss, I highly recommend sphagnum. It pretty much never molds.
For substrate, I'd go with coco husk, orchid bark, or eco earth.
Good luck!
bigsnakegirl785
05-08-15, 10:24 PM
This is the stuff I use, you should be able to find it at any petsmart or petco, or on amazon. If you're interested :)
Forest Floor™ Bedding (http://zoomed.com/db/products/EntryDetail.php?EntryID=39&DatabaseID=2&SearchID=5)
I haven't seen that anywhere around here, not even at Petsmart or Petco. It will end up being more expensive to use it if it ends up molding on me, too, but I can order some online and try it. One thing of moss is ~$5, and one 14.4 liter bag is about the same as 3 of the sphagnum moss bags but is ~$17 on Amazon without shipping. If it doesn't mold, it should save me money, though.
The only enclosures that I have a mold problem in are my flexwatt-heated ones. :/
I have yet to figure out how to completely stop mold in my BRB's enclosure. Both sphagnum moss and EcoEarth have molded on me. I have to completely switch the bedding out every few weeks, and it's getting expensive. I've tried adding more air holes, I've tried keeping the bedding completely dry and just spraying a little, I've tried getting a larger flexwatt to increase the area that's heated so maybe more will evaporate...nothing's worked for me. I'll probably see mold all the time until I start heating him with an RHP in his adult enclosure, which should dry out the bedding before it starts molding.
Have you considered using bioactive soil? It helps keep humidity constant, self regulates mold, and allows for more natural behaviour and immunity. Just a thought...
bigsnakegirl785
05-12-15, 03:10 PM
Have you considered using bioactive soil? It helps keep humidity constant, self regulates mold, and allows for more natural behaviour and immunity. Just a thought...
I have actually, I just don't know anything about it and it will take awhile of research to get it down. He's also in a temporary tub, so it could either be too small for a successful bioactive substrate, or he won't be in it long enough to bother. These guys do grow extremely slowly from what I've seen, though, so since he can stay in it until he's 3.5', he may not need to be moved out until he's like 3 years old.
He also likes to burrow, so I'm not sure if that would affect the substrate badly or not.
I've never converted to true bioactive soil for many reasons, and I rarely see anyone put the cons so I will.
I admit to the benefits when done properly, and these are my viewpoints. I'm not putting my snakes in harm by not converting (trust me, their health comes first)
1-Decreases the beauty of the snake, especially with BRBs and they're curved irredescent scalation that catches dirt.
2- The introduction of isopods/detritivores CAN introduce parasites that are VERY hard to get rid of. If utilizing wood mites they can be easily mistaken for reptile mites.
3- If done properly then either PH must be checked consistently or most of the substrate needs to be changed 3-9 months depending on the insects, plants or soil used within. (To be fair normal substrate should be changed more often, but there's no concern of insects remaining when exchanging soil)
4- Due to all things above, it's just not easier than regular substrate. I spot check every couple days, I bake my substrate and clean the cages every month. To me that's not too difficult or time consuming.
I used the bioactive soil once but not long enough to see any benefits(it was with a ball python).
Ive got all the ingredients together now, organic hummus, sand and gravel. I intend to put it together this weekend but then I have to order springtails so it will be awhile yet before I get Dante in the tank. I have to get a piece of plexiglass for the lid too.
I think that the risk of parasites from isopods or springtails is seriously low if possible at all, maybe with earthworms gathered from the yard.The whole point of a planted or bioactive substrate is to get away from the sterile lab style of keeping a snake. Yes it more work at the beginning but in the long run it should be less work.
Anyway its worth a go, especially with one snake.
Snakesitter
05-13-15, 02:02 PM
Good luck -- please keep us posted on how it goes!
I've never converted to true bioactive soil for many reasons, and I rarely see anyone put the cons so I will.
I admit to the benefits when done properly, and these are my viewpoints. I'm not putting my snakes in harm by not converting (trust me, their health comes first)
1-Decreases the beauty of the snake, especially with BRBs and they're curved irredescent scalation that catches dirt.
2- The introduction of isopods/detritivores CAN introduce parasites that are VERY hard to get rid of. If utilizing wood mites they can be easily mistaken for reptile mites.
3- If done properly then either PH must be checked consistently or most of the substrate needs to be changed 3-9 months depending on the insects, plants or soil used within. (To be fair normal substrate should be changed more often, but there's no concern of insects remaining when exchanging soil)
4- Due to all things above, it's just not easier than regular substrate. I spot check every couple days, I bake my substrate and clean the cages every month. To me that's not too difficult or time consuming.
I appreciate your concerns and am glad to be able to alleviate them. I have all mine on bioactive soil and have for years now, so let me go through your list.
1. Not a problem. Soil should, like in the wild, have a covering of some sort, be it leaf litter, live moss or plants, etc. Also, a bioactive soil develops horizons over time. This means that the top layer will tend to sort of crust over, again like you see in the wild. That means you dont have to worry about 'dirty' snakes, unless they like to dig.
2. Not sure which parasites you would be referring to here. However, pretty universally, parasites that come with invertebrates do not parasitize vertebrates. Ive seen people refer to what you speak of when feeding crickets, but again its not true. You are more likely to give your snake parasites than the invertebrates you put in an enclosure. Generally speaking though, reptile parasites come from other reptiles, and are often so host specific that lizard parasites do not bother snakes or vice versa.
However, the interesting benefit with bioactive enclosures is that they will naturally counter the reintroduction of some common reptile parasites. Soil nemotodes and other substrate inhabitants will actually consume or outcompete some reptile parasites. Ive never had trouble telling reptile mites from wood mites, however, when you get reptile mites you can also use natural predatory/carnivorous mites against them too. Nature is handy that way. ;)
3. If done properly, the system will function well enough that you do not have to check pH constantly or change the soil at all. Soil can be thought of like aquarium water. When its first set up it takes awhile for the bacteria/nitrogen cycle to bloom and grow. Once its set up properly though, its just a matter of making sure you arent overdoing it. I have multiple enclosures that have had the same substrate for years. When I open the door it smells like forest, not waste.
4. While I would disagree about the difficulty, ease is not really the main point. Bioactive enclosures, when done well, are healthier. What we are finding out about our, and pretty much every animal's, interaction with the soil is that it is healthier for us in the long run. Sterile environments generally mean a lowered immune function. I understand its not for everyone. They are not the easiest set up, and getting the soil right means treating the enclosure almost like another animal. It requires care, supervision and maintenance. In exchange though, you get a living biota, and an understanding of whole animal health in a way you cannot really understand in a sterile environment that has no interaction. I cant say enough good things about it.
1- No experience with this personally so you could most definitely be correct. The snakes I've seen kept on bioactive look... natural.
2- Yes most definitely, and I'm glad you caught me on this as I misspoke. Certain parasites can be introduced such as mites or aphids from either the soil or the plants; This is of minimal concern as the most harm they cause is stress upon the owner when they believe they've found snake mites.
What I should of said is completing natures cycles allows for every party involved to thrive in the cycle. Many forms of bacteria can be introduced and will not be removed without complete breakdown of the setup. EG. Coccideosis.
3- While possible to create long standing soil that doesn't need any balancing it's VERY RARE. Lack of wind and animals, besides the one, doesn't allow for any natural process of fertilization. The first item to break in the cycle would be that of photo and chemosynthetic life. EG, plant can only survive in 6-8pH, detritivores increase phosphorous, subsequently lowering the pH and killing the plant. With the plant dead, CO2 increases and Oxygen decreases. The lack of oxygen lowers the reptiles metabolism, leading to lowered immune system, activity levels appetite etc. and on and on.
^^^Basically, nature is a wonderful cycle, and is tough to replicate.
4- If this is true I would love to see it, truly. I have been looking for a study on this, but only found one with a TERRIBLE model. While it may be true, very little is known about the reptile adaptive immunity.
I will say I like the debate thus far.
I agree, it's refreshing to have a discussion instead of a pissing contest. Thanks for the discussion.
You're right in saying the bioactive environment allows various inhabitants, that are often seen as bad, to live within the cycle. However, its important to remember that in a balanced system they both live together and are adapted to do so. Healthy animals often have coccidia. It's not a problem though as its kept in check by their immune system. It's only when something else hinders their immune system that it can become problematic. It's important to remember that these animals have evolved in symbiosis with these parasites, to the point where normal digestive function is aided, and even in some cases reliant on this connection. There are reptiles that actually require exposure to adults faeces in order to survive or thrive. Perhaps more than we realize.
As for your other point about the soil, I don't think it really is that rare once it's set up well. And admittedly that's the kicker. I really think that aquarium water is the best analogy. With fish tanks, it's become normal and we'll understood, so the process is easily taught. I don't know why soil can't be the same. It's really not that difficult, and realistically it's much simpler over time than constant sterilization. Once that nitrogen cycle is stable, keeping it going is just habit, or even just timers. If I'm totally honest, my longest running bioactive enclosure is mostly timers, with me just adding leaf litter sometimes and occasionally turning the soil.
The other thing to remember is that these things are adapted to hardship. The plants, soil, animals etc that are part of this cycle are forgiving to our shortfalls as keepers because nature is much less forgiving and regular. I have mister systems and timers for heat and lighting so that it's a regular system that all grows together. Nature is full of droughts, floods, heat waves and such that make our shortcomings generally within reason as long as it's not too extreme or too long. Most house plants are quite resilient, as are most common reptiles. Not that we should rely on this, but it means if your soil pH drops for a short time, it's not the end of the world. And indeed, with a deeper substrate, like with a bigger fish tank, these things are less likely to fluctuate. As a counterpoint, I'd say nature is resilient, and will fight to survive. Our toughest job is to keep from killing it.
It's the one feature of de Vosjoli's book I slightly disagree with. He recommended a soil of 4-6". I'd say the deeper the better. While the deeper soil will get less aeration, so is more likely to become balanced towards the anaerobic bacteria, the depth allows for less fluctuations in moisture, pH and therefore general soil health. I think a soil of around 8-10" is a good minimum to maintain.
Regarding your last point, have you looked at the Biology of the Reptilia series edited by Carl Gans? It's absolutely revealing and I think one of the best collected works on the internal workings of these animals available. They've made online access absolutely free now and I couldn't possibly suggest anything more. I wish I would've had access to it decades ago! Here's the link:
Biology of the Reptilia: Table of Contents - Gans Collections and Charitable Fund (http://carlgans.org/table-contents/)
I see a lot of what you're trying to say. There are very few forms of bacteria in those symbiotic categories. In aquariums the use of cyanobacteria, most commonly algae, are true mutualistic symbiotes with the coral due to their nitrogen fixation. This is part of what balances an aquarium so well, but the process is arguably more complex on land.You're confusing symbiosis with benefit, but in many cases it's harmful, especially to the host of the parasites.
A pH imbalance is only something that you'll notice if you're plants are sensitive to it. Furthermore pH is not the only reason that most people change out soil. Low potassium, nitrogen, or phosphorous should be affecting it. If not growth or color than perhaps bloom. Think of water, although resources are cycled you'll eventually need more to be added.
I browsed the Carl Gans book just now, although it seems very informative I'm not sure how it is pertinent to the discussion. I was saying how little was known about the reptile immune system, ad this book doesn't cover it.
It sounds very much like taking care of a tank full of fish. Not sure how to check ph of soil. I will have to do some research on that. We have very hard water here and it makes everything have a higher PH.
I dont even try and pretend to be scientist or even remotely smart. However I do read alot and I did come across the CO2/O2 problems with a tank full of plants and little ventilation.
I may or may not be getting in over my head but am going to try it anyway. Im Wondering if the BRB is the best candidate for this "experiment".
Perhaps buying a few geckos or a smaller species like a garter might be a better choice. Or the Nelsons milksnake, he is pretty small still but he was already in the wild for a month when he escaped and we found him out in the shed on the far side of our property.
I'm assuming the C02/02 problem you're talking about is too little C02 for photosynthesis to occur?
If you do attempt it though keep a journal. Food schedule growth rate health problems. It'd be awesome to see if it really does benefit them. It's entirely possible I just haven't seen any evidence of it.
I see a lot of what you're trying to say. There are very few forms of bacteria in those symbiotic categories. In aquariums the use of cyanobacteria, most commonly algae, are true mutualistic symbiotes with the coral due to their nitrogen fixation. This is part of what balances an aquarium so well, but the process is arguably more complex on land.You're confusing symbiosis with benefit, but in many cases it's harmful, especially to the host of the parasites.
A pH imbalance is only something that you'll notice if you're plants are sensitive to it. Furthermore pH is not the only reason that most people change out soil. Low potassium, nitrogen, or phosphorous should be affecting it. If not growth or color than perhaps bloom. Think of water, although resources are cycled you'll eventually need more to be added.
I browsed the Carl Gans book just now, although it seems very informative I'm not sure how it is pertinent to the discussion. I was saying how little was known about the reptile immune system, ad this book doesn't cover it.
I think you might have browsed a bit too quickly. ;) There are 22 very large volumes all pertaining specifically to the biology of reptiles. Immunity is fully covered as are all major biological systems, in minute detail. Reptiles are actually one of the most studied animal groups there are, and at one time it was a close race as to which would become the common lab animal used in science. Its sort of only a fluke that labs use mice now instead of anoles or other small lizards. An interesting historical read if you are curious.
As for the symbiotic parasites, thats just it, there are more than you think, and probably more positive benefits than were previously thought. We were taught to think that all parasites were bad and should be eradicated immediately, but the more we understand the intricate relationships involved, the more it seems that there are benefits to many of them, or at the very least, not many problems. The problems are usually to do with us as keepers and how we mess up the balance of reptile's immune or other systems, and the resulting parasite blooms. Its sort of like saying that cane toads are bad because of what happened in Australia. But cane toads arent bad, they were just taken out of their natural habitat and bloomed uncontrollably.
As for the soil, actually what you describe with cyanobacteria and nitrogen fixing also happens in soil around plant roots. Soil is a bit trickier than water as it doesnt move the same way, so maybe more like a salt water aquarium than a freshwater one in complexity. However, its not so much adding more, but just turning the soil that fixes that problem usually. Like I said, the first bioactive enclosure I made had nothing added to the soil for years. I just took it apart yesterday as I upgraded my GTP to a larger enclosure. The plants were still growing happily, and the soil still smelled wonderful. I actually 'seeded' a couple of my other enclosures with it.
This will sounds sort of cheesy I know (but I dont care as Im a huge Jurassic Park fan) but life finds a way. You bring in dirt and plants and bugs and its pretty hard to kill it if you keep it maintained.
Actually animal testing is something I'm very familiar on and have never even heard of reptiles being in a close race. I have to entirely disagree that reptiles are the most highly studied. Billions upon billions have been spent on rodent studies due to their genetic similiarities, rapid breeding rates, similar physiological responses to stressors etc. This is money that has never been available to reptile studies and quite frankly never will, unless of course, Jurassic Park becomes a reality. My first board accepted study had me pleading with a pharmacology company, trying to convince them of the monetary gains that could be seen.
Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that nearly everything you've said could be true. However all good research I've seen doesn't seem to support it at this time. Namely lifespan, illness rates and growth in traditionally kept animals (sterile environments) compared to others.
Again, I didnt say reptiles were the most highly studied, merely that they are one of the most studied groups. That reptiles were so broadly used in research in the past is only something Im familiar with as I researched further and further back in time. Mice being used as the standard in lab testing isnt something that has always been the norm. Mice are used because they are cheap, breed quickly and are fairly rugged. Which is what anoles are too, and why they were both used for quite some time. Anoles have been a lab test subject for about a hundred years. Like I said, that mice are now the norm is partly (not totally) a bit of a fluke.
As for the good research you speak of, what studies have you seen regarding lifespan/illness/growth rates in sterile environments versus bioactive ones? The closest I have ever read came from The Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles by Warwick, et al 2001. A great read if you have the time. In it they describe the variation in these different types of housed reptiles and the seeming benefit in more naturalistic enclosures.
I see you have an ackie. Do you keep it in a sterile environment?
As for the Ackie, yes I do, sort of. I keep her on paper towels with a step ladder setup for heat and I clean her cage weekly. However, she has a 20 gallon nesting box thats kept very damp for burrowing. That gets changed out about every six months.This allows for all the naturalistic burrowing and damp burrows along with HIGH temps.
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