Trying something new

[MDT]

So, after I chatted with Nick Helble about his ReptiLinks...I was intrigued. This is NOT a commercial or ad (i promise)...you can research on your own...but the calorie density of the links is something that may be promising. Anyway, I wanted to try them.....I was concerned about the snakes not hitting the links, but I thawed with a rat to scent them and the snakes killed the links.

So, I want to compare weight gain/size gain with feeding every 14 days with the links vs previous feeding every 14 days with rats.

We shall see...If you have never talked w Nick, he's a good guy and very helpful!
http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh572/mtucker66/IMG_3576_zpsgrfd1bt9.jpg (http://s1252.photobucket.com/user/mtucker66/media/IMG_3576_zpsgrfd1bt9.jpg.html)

http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh572/mtucker66/IMG_3578_zpsyxaxbufi.jpg (http://s1252.photobucket.com/user/mtucker66/media/IMG_3578_zpsyxaxbufi.jpg.html)

http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh572/mtucker66/IMG_3580_zpsnlsg7bhk.jpg (http://s1252.photobucket.com/user/mtucker66/media/IMG_3580_zpsnlsg7bhk.jpg.html)

[lady_bug87]

What are they made with?

[Minkness]

Could you give us a run down of what makes a link more beneficial than a rodent? Calories, minerals, nutrients, cost, ect. Also, could you provide a pic of a link next to a rodent?

Funny thing is, I mentioned 'snake kibble' in the feeding ethics thread, so this is seriously interesting to me!

[MDT]

Moderators...if you guys feel this is becoming a commercial.... please delete, notify me, berate me or whatever...I have zero vested interest in Reptilinks...

with that being said, there is a pretty good chart of nutritional comparisons on the website giving a rundown of minerals, protein, etc...as well as kcal/kg available. Reptilinks (http://www.reptilinks.com) will give you all of the deets...(as in details)

Based on a equivalent sized rat..the venison link the calories available are essentially double (with the venison)..

[Minkness]

Cool. Thanks for the link to the links =)

[reptiledude987]

Very interesting product. Id definitely give them a try just need to see if they will ship to Canada. Keep us posted on how they work for you. Id also be curious to see if the snakes take them without scenting them with mi e or rats.

[Eggplant]

Wow that sounds pretty awesome. I'm down if they're better for snakie. Just not sure what kind of sausage I should opt for. I've always wondered if snakes would benefit from fruits and veggies, but wasn't sure if they're able to digest those things. I'll contact the company and find out :)

[prairiepanda]

Very interesting product. Id definitely give them a try just need to see if they will ship to Canada. Keep us posted on how they work for you. Id also be curious to see if the snakes take them without scenting them with mi e or rats.

They are pretty much just raw frozen meat, so unfortunately there's no chance of shipping across the border :( Even preserved meat is not allowed(though much easier to sneak through)...a package that must be kept frozen at all times would definitely raise red flags at the border. You could pretty easily make your own, though. Especially the rabbit ones. Just throw a (dead) rabbit through a meat grinder, case it up, and you've got "reptilinks"!

Wow that sounds pretty awesome. I'm down if they're better for snakie. Just not sure what kind of sausage I should opt for. I've always wondered if snakes would benefit from fruits and veggies, but wasn't sure if they're able to digest those things. I'll contact the company and find out :)

The ones with fruits and veggies are for other reptiles such as tegus which would benefit from those. For snakes you want the all-meat ones.

[lady_bug87]

I'm guessing they add some kind of calcium supplement as well Right?

[MDT]

from my conversations w Nick, and from the info on the website, this is a "whole animal" product (minus stomach contents, etc...and with sig less water weight than a rodent)..so the deer, chicken, rabbit..whatever is essentially ground up and put into casings... so the calcuim, phosphorus, zinc, iron, etc is what the prey animal was "made of"....there are options to add in vegetables/fruits for lizard/tortise type diets...but i don't know what all they can do there....

[lady_bug87]

Ah Gotcha.

[Aaron_S]

They are pretty much just raw frozen meat, so unfortunately there's no chance of shipping across the border :( Even preserved meat is not allowed(though much easier to sneak through)...a package that must be kept frozen at all times would definitely raise red flags at the border. You could pretty easily make your own, though. Especially the rabbit ones. Just throw a (dead) rabbit through a meat grinder, case it up, and you've got "reptilinks"!



The ones with fruits and veggies are for other reptiles such as tegus which would benefit from those. For snakes you want the all-meat ones.

People ship frozen meat all the time across the border. How do you think some people get their frozen rats?

[prairiepanda]

People ship frozen meat all the time across the border. How do you think some people get their frozen rats?

Oh? Whenever I've asked I've been told it's illegal. If there's a permit or something that's easy to set up I'd be very interested! I always want to bring back meat products from other places but they never allowed me to, whether it's been by car or plane :( But rats? There are several frozen rat breeders within Canada; why would people spend the extra on shipping and exchange rates to get ones from the US? Just curious.

[lady_bug87]

Oh? Whenever I've asked I've been told it's illegal. If there's a permit or something that's easy to set up I'd be very interested! I always want to bring back meat products from other places but they never allowed me to, whether it's been by car or plane :( But rats? There are several frozen rat breeders within Canada; why would people spend the extra on shipping and exchange rates to get ones from the US? Just curious.

Bulk.

Some people buy way more than than the average keeper. There's also wholesalers who divvy up and resell shipments

[RAD House]

The thing I wonder about is if most snakes have evolved to eat whole rodents if feeding another food source may have negative consequences. Also the cost of these seem to be on par for my local mice supply, and more if I buy online. From the nutritional side of things they seem to have more fats than rats or mice. It doesn't say what types of fats these are but with most captive snakes being overweight I would be concerned about this. I am not sure that I could be convinced to try these as their natural prey is so readily available. Maybe as a snack to vary their diet.

[prairiepanda]

The thing I wonder about is if most snakes have evolved to eat whole rodents if feeding another food source may have negative consequences. Also the cost of these seem to be on par for my local mice supply, and more if I buy online. From the nutritional side of things they seem to have more fats than rats or mice. It doesn't say what types of fats these are but with most captive snakes being overweight I would be concerned about this. I am not sure that I could be convinced to try these as their natural prey is so readily available. Maybe as a snack to vary their diet.

I'm a bit skeptical of the venison ones(for snakes, anyway) for this reason. The rabbit ones should be fine though. I know a lot of people feed their (very large) snakes rabbits as a staple diet and they do great. The rabbit one isn't listed on the comparison chart though. I'd be interested to see how they compare to rats. But the chicken and venison varieties probably wouldn't hurt, even though I wouldn't feed them as a staple. A lot of people do feed chickens, goats, and pigs. Not sure how well those go as a staple, but I've heard of great results with varied diets.

[MDT]

Snakes don't snack. Secondly, they have evolved as opportunist carnivores...rodents, birds, lizards, chipmunks, frogs....Further, it's a WHOLE ANIMAL product (as stated above and on their website)....so the fats are what they are: as fat as a deer or rabbit is, that's what you get.

[RAD House]

I meant snack as a treat, meaning feeding it in place of a normal mouse meal every now and again. I thought that was clear from me saying varying its diet, sorry. Besides very large snakes that live in tropical areas with very small deer, snakes in general do not opportunistically eat deer. So eating deer is not something that is relevant to me with my small north American snakes. In fact nor is eating rabbit really. If they were to come up with quail and lizard varieties then I might be more intrigued. The fact that the fat is what you get does not answer my concern. That was just my opinion, if you feel that they are beneficial to your snake then more power to you.

[Eggplant]

Was reading this: Do Snakes Need Vitamins? | Animals - PawNation (http://animals.pawnation.com/snakes-need-vitamins-10902.html) and it would seem snakes do benefit from the stomach contents of their prey. Not sure if this info is reliable or how important stomach contents are to a snake's nutrition. Maybe we can add vitamin supplements in the sausages?

[MDT]

Just a wild thought.....go to website...click "contact us", type your in your questions, send to Nick. Await the response. Repeat as needed.

[prairiepanda]

Was reading this: Do Snakes Need Vitamins? | Animals - PawNation (http://animals.pawnation.com/snakes-need-vitamins-10902.html) and it would seem snakes do benefit from the stomach contents of their prey. Not sure if this info is reliable or how important stomach contents are to a snake's nutrition. Maybe we can add vitamin supplements in the sausages?

I wouldn't recommend it, since we don't know what synthetic vitamins are actually bioavailable to snakes nor which ones we would be losing when stomach contents are removed. Besides which, stomach contents of prey can vary considerably so it's hard to say how significant that portion is. A better way to solve this potential problem would be to include the stomach contents(ie. throw a whole, unaltered rabbit or rat through the meatgrinder without any preparation beforehand besides pre-killing it)

[MDT]

oh....and, eggplant, i am not busting on you, you may be on to something, idk...but, in no way, shape, or form could I take anything from a source called "pawnation" as a reputable, blinded study, peer-reviewed source anymore than i could take any medical advice form dr. oz.

the statement may be true. however, the amount research that Nick appears to have done in bioassays, growth rates and the like, would tend to give me more assurance than a care sheet from pawnation......

[Eggplant]

oh....and, eggplant, i am not busting on you, you may be on to something, idk...but, in no way, shape, or form could I take anything from a source called "pawnation" as a reputable, blinded study, peer-reviewed source anymore than i could take any medical advice form dr. oz.

the statement may be true. however, the amount research that Nick appears to have done in bioassays, growth rates and the like, would tend to give me more assurance than a care sheet from pawnation......

Hi :) Yeah, info online is often not very trustworthy. I did send a email inquiring about stomach contents, nutrition and what not to the Reptilinks peeps earlier. They replied saying basically, they only took out organs that has a lot of poop in them. They're still investigating the impact of removing poops in regard to protobiotic content currently, but the reptiles they've been feeding only sausages to for the past 5 (!) years are healthier and produce larger clutches than when on rodents! I think that's pretty awesome.

[millertime89]

MDT, I commented on that thread in Morelia pics of the day, nice to know I'm not the only one in that group! I'm ok with you posting the link. I just wish he made them big enough for larger species, if he did I would definitely try them.

[MDT]

kyle...no doubt. if they work out in terms of better utilization of available nutrients, i'm all in...i know i could sustain my carpets well on them...my retics will eventually hit a size where i'm gonna need to figure something else out. but for now, we're good!

[millertime89]

Totally. Not knocking them or anything, but they're just not worth the cost either. $4 each for the 100g weight ones? No thanks. That's just too much. Although I suppose it's cheaper than buying ratcicles individually at the pet store if you can't keep rodents in the freezer... I definitely see the uses, just not right for me.

[Aaron_S]

4 bucks?! My medium rats at 150 grams are half that cost. I don't see the benefit over rats since it's whole prey as well.

[MDT]

higher calorie than whole rat, less "packaging" (so-to-speak)...being more calorie dense, you don't have to feed at the same frequency, and pretty much the whole package is bio-available, so waste is decreased (i.e. better utilization of the food, don't have to waste energy pooping out bones, fur, etc...)...

idk....i'm anxious to see how my "trial" goes...

[millertime89]

4 bucks?! My medium rats at 150 grams are half that cost. I don't see the benefit over rats since it's whole prey as well.

The way I see it, they're great if you have someone that doesn't want dead rats in the freezer, but you don't wan to go buy rats at the pet store each week that are way overpriced.

[prairiepanda]

Stuff like this could really help to expand the reptile hobby, since squeamishness about dead rodents is often a bigger turn-off for people than the snakes themselves. I'm interested to see whether this will catch on. I imagine some snakes might be difficult to switch over to sausages. The fruit and veggie ones would probably make a great staple for tegus, though, and would eliminate the daily chore of preparing complicated meals as well as getting picky eaters to consumer a complete diet! (Or mostly complete; not sure if they might need to be supplemented a bit with other foods)

Personally I would stick with mice for my snakes, for the sake of convenience mostly(it seems the cost would balance out, considering the calorie content of the sausages), but if these ever came to Canada I would certainly suggest them to squeamish friends who have interest in snakes. Perhaps they could be considered for vacation food to make things easier on repti-sitters, but it depends on how willing snakes would be to make the switch.

[Aaron_S]

Stuff like this could really help to expand the reptile hobby, since squeamishness about dead rodents is often a bigger turn-off for people than the snakes themselves. I'm interested to see whether this will catch on. I imagine some snakes might be difficult to switch over to sausages. The fruit and veggie ones would probably make a great staple for tegus, though, and would eliminate the daily chore of preparing complicated meals as well as getting picky eaters to consumer a complete diet! (Or mostly complete; not sure if they might need to be supplemented a bit with other foods)

Personally I would stick with mice for my snakes, for the sake of convenience mostly(it seems the cost would balance out, considering the calorie content of the sausages), but if these ever came to Canada I would certainly suggest them to squeamish friends who have interest in snakes. Perhaps they could be considered for vacation food to make things easier on repti-sitters, but it depends on how willing snakes would be to make the switch.

This isn't the first time this product has been tried. It certainly looks like the better version but it's been done before. Over a decade ago and I don't think it increased the hobby by any large margin. Again, I will wait this out and see what happens since there's social media now to get the product out far quicker.

I'm all for Matt's trial here. I look forward to seeing results but I simply view it as "if it's not broken, then don't fix it" mentality when it comes to this.

[lady_bug87]

If they made quail or or finch or whatever it would be a cool way to add variations to arboreal diets

Good luck Matt!

[prairiepanda]

This isn't the first time this product has been tried. It certainly looks like the better version but it's been done before. Over a decade ago and I don't think it increased the hobby by any large margin. Again, I will wait this out and see what happens since there's social media now to get the product out far quicker.

I've heard rumor of canned ones with suspicious additives, but have never seen such a thing myself. Is that what you're talking about? But I agree that if it was over a decade ago then the difficulty of product advertising would have been a major obstacle. If reptilinks or similar producers know how to best utilize social media, they can spread the word quite rapidly and generate at least some demand all over the world.

If they made quail or or finch or whatever it would be a cool way to add variations to arboreal diets

Good luck Matt!

A lizard variety would be cool as well, though much more difficult to produce.

[Aaron_S]

I've heard rumor of canned ones with suspicious additives, but have never seen such a thing myself. Is that what you're talking about? But I agree that if it was over a decade ago then the difficulty of product advertising would have been a major obstacle. If reptilinks or similar producers know how to best utilize social media, they can spread the word quite rapidly and generate at least some demand all over the world.



A lizard variety would be cool as well, though much more difficult to produce.

I do not recall them being in a can. I remember an albino cornsnake on their package eating them. I beleive they were simply called snake sausages. I saw them in Reptile magazine as well as my local pet store at the time. Nearly 18 years ago