Ethics of snake food...

[mistersprinkles]

It is not my intent to start a bitter discussion, I just wanted to share my views on feeding mammals to reptiles, and why I stopped keeping snakes.

I kept snakes for over ten years, from when I was 5 until I was 16. I had numerous different species in my collection. One day I was feeding a FT rat to my ball python, and I looked at the rat, and I had a sudden onset of extreme empathy for the animal.

I thought to myself, this rat can feel emotions. It can become emotionally attached to other rats or to a human. It feels fear, happiness. My snake does not. Am I doing the right thing? Should I be contributing to the untimely death of a higher animal to feed a lower animal? I found that I could no longer condone this practice. I decided to give up snake keeping once and for all.

In my early twenties, I thought I'd give it another shot with a coastal carpet python, but I found that I still felt the same way, so I gave the snake to a fellow hobbyist and threw in the towel.

Does anybody else have ethical issues with reptile keeping?

[Jim Smith]

Animals are raised for food all over the planet. Have you ever been to a chicken ranch or a pig farm? I have no problems feeding F/T rodents to my snakes. I must admit though that I really don't like the idea of feeding live lizards or other live snakes as food, so I don't keep the species of snakes that only prefer those food items. I suggest that you reconsider keeping your new carpet python if it bothers you to feed rodents. Perhaps one of the egg eating snakes or water snakes where you can feed pieces of fish. Just a couple of possibilities...

[RAD House]

Nope how could I as I myself am a predator? I think it is good that people realize that something must parish for other things to live. It makes you respect the thing that perished more, not just a steak but a living being. The caste system of higher and lower animal groups is ridiculous and not supported by science. The only thing that matters in nature is what lives and what dies. In my mind some of the more ancient groups may even be considered as higher as they have survived for so long through so much. Mammals not so much, and humans especially not as we continually destroy our own home.

[Minkness]

Well....first of all...why are you on a snake forum if you feel unethical? (Not being cheeky, genuinely curious)

Secondly, I don't really have any ethical qualms of feeding my animals. I'm certainly not a vegetarian, so why expect my animals to be (or give up the animals I love). Dogs and cats eat meat products that means other animals are slaughtered and processed just for their consumption. I'm sure if we could get 'snake kibble' easily taken by our snakes, that would happen alot more. The food chain has never bothered me in the least. Now...I do respect pet rodents and their owners, and have personally owned pet rats and mice that would break my heart should I have fed them to a snake. (I didn't own snakes at the time but you get the idea). I personally cannot kill an animal on purpose however. So, either f/t or live...but I cannot just grab a rat/mouse, bash it in the head, break it's neck, gas it, or any other method of euthinizing it. I of course feed f/t for safety purposes, but also because in the end, many mass pricing feeder companies humanely gas the feeder animals so I know that they don't exactly suffer. It's the circle of life.

on another note....I don't really see the food chain as one animal being 'higher' than the other. Just because an animal can bond or feel basic emotions or be trained to do tricks doesn't make them better, just different. Think about a lion and a gazelle. Both are mammals, both can show trust, affection, and be trained....but the lion will eat the gazelle and it will never be the other way around. Does that make the lion better? Nope, just higher on the food chain. Same with reptiles and rodents. Regardless of emotions and such, the rodent is usually eaten by tue reptile, which technically makes the reptile higher on the food chain (except those rare, stupid times someone leaves live prey in with a domesticated snake and the next thing you know the mouse is enjoying some live meat of the other kind)

This is all just my opinion of course.

[Derek1]

It is not my intent to start a bitter discussion, I just wanted to share my views on feeding mammals to reptiles, and why I stopped keeping snakes.

I kept snakes for over ten years, from when I was 5 until I was 16. I had numerous different species in my collection. One day I was feeding a FT rat to my ball python, and I looked at the rat, and I had a sudden onset of extreme empathy for the animal.

I thought to myself, this rat can feel emotions. It can become emotionally attached to other rats or to a human. It feels fear, happiness. My snake does not. Am I doing the right thing? Should I be contributing to the untimely death of a higher animal to feed a lower animal? I found that I could no longer condone this practice. I decided to give up snake keeping once and for all.

In my early twenties, I thought I'd give it another shot with a coastal carpet python, but I found that I still felt the same way, so I gave the snake to a fellow hobbyist and threw in the towel.

Does anybody else have ethical issues with reptile keeping?

As my 6yr old would say. You're cray cray

How is a mouse/rat a higher animal than a snake? Both are equal on the lower food chain scale.

[SSSSnakes]

This world survives by a food chain. I'm high on the food chain, my snakes are lower on the chain and rodents are even lower. I'm fine with that. Unless you are a a true vegan and use no dead animal products, don't talk ethics.

[lady_bug87]

I think its an interesting topic. When I feed my animals I don't see rats as well, rats. they're food.

My ethical problem is when people feed live for fun. I saw a horrible video once where someone gave a live mouse to a pacman frog and the frog tore it apart while it screamed

[eminart]

Dying in a CO2 chamber is a better way to die than almost any death a rat would experience in nature. Everything eats.

In modern day, people have the opportunity to pretend we are above nature. Technology and industry allow us to be so distant from our food and the food of other animals, that we have an unrealistic disconnect.

[pet_snake_78]

I do cringe when I see the stereotypical video feed of someone feeding live to the tune of a Screamo band. It's pretty well accepted that snakes should be on F/t when possible for the benefit of all involved. However, when people become so far from the sources of our food, as most are today, we begin to become divorced from the reality of the food chain. Just by existing every human on earth is killing thousands of animals. The house you live in has killed dozens of animals when being built and prevented hundreds of others from having a place to be born and live. The roads you drive on kill and injure tens of thousands of animals daily.. right now there are deer with broken legs waiting to die, turtles about to be smashed by oncoming traffic, etc. Right now there are chickens being killed so you can eat. Cows will be slaughtered today and the meat hung on a hook. SO in retrospect, do I think feeding a thawed mouse to a snake is a moral issue... no way.

Even if you don't eat meat, you will kill thousands of animals. Pesticides, land clear, tractors chopping animals to pieces, water being taken from wildlife habitat and sprayed onto monocultured fields designed specifically to prevent any type of ecosystem from living in there so the plants can maximize their enegy, etc. There is no way any human can exist without resulting in the death of thousands if not millions of other animals in his or her lifetime.

[eminart]

I do cringe when I see the stereotypical video feed of someone feeding live to the tune of a Screamo band. It's pretty well accepted that snakes should be on F/t when possible for the benefit of all involved. However, when people become so far from the sources of our food, as most are today, we begin to become divorced from the reality of the food chain. Just by existing every human on earth is killing thousands of animals. The house you live in has killed dozens of animals when being built and prevented hundreds of others from having a place to be born and live. The roads you drive on kill and injure tens of thousands of animals daily.. right now there are deer with broken legs waiting to die, turtles about to be smashed by oncoming traffic, etc. Right now there are chickens being killed so you can eat. Cows will be slaughtered today and the meat hung on a hook. SO in retrospect, do I think feeding a thawed mouse to a snake is a moral issue... no way.

Even if you don't eat meat, you will kill thousands of animals. Pesticides, land clear, tractors chopping animals to pieces, water being taken from wildlife habitat and sprayed onto monocultured fields designed specifically to prevent any type of ecosystem from living in there so the plants can maximize their enegy, etc. There is no way any human can exist without resulting in the death of thousands if not millions of other animals in his or her lifetime.

Yay! Someone who truly gets it! I posted a very similar thing on facebook last week. It didn't go over well with many of the intended audience.

[pet_snake_78]

Most people don't want to deal with reality, but we cannot let them become so comfortable that they can make any statement they want and everyone will just support the fantasy land they live in so they can sleep easier at night.

My family has a ranch so I know what happens, "free range", "grass fed", or not. They are better than most ranchers though and let as much wildlife share the land as possible. An "organic" farmer near them kills as many timber rattlers as he can and not so long ago was trying to get help locating any foraging and denning areas to expediate the killing. Now this is a species that is disappearing across much of its range and now faces a deadly fungal infection that may wipe them out even in remote areas. I am not anti-ranching and even a bad rancher has more wildlife on his land than a good corn farmer, but any way you dice it the growing billions of people are doing horrific things to wildlife and animals way, way, way worse than feeding a mouse... even a live one.

[reptiledude987]

Not in the least. Whats more cruel for a mouse to be gassed with CO2 or the snake to starve to death? Its not like we feed mice because its fun or cool. Its their natural prey item. tens of thousands of mice or rats are eaten by wild snakes every day in the wild. I really see no difference. Also as stated unless youre truely a vegan we as humans are really no different.

This whole post has me questioning your motivations to be on the forum all togeter. If you cant justify feeding your pet snake and no longer have any why are you an active member on a snake forum?

[Aaron_S]

I don't have the same ethics when it comes to feeding rats to my snakes. They have to eat and survive themselves.

I do get your standpoint and it's cool with me. I wouldn't say you're right or wrong here, it's just the way you are and how you feel. Nothing wrong with that.

Enjoy your lizards!

[Albert Clark]

Mice and rats have been wreaking havoc on populations throughout history. They spread diseases and destroy crops. They have been a scourge and a danger to infants and children in inner cities for eons. Oh, they do have cute faces and the ability to have higher brain functions but look at the motis operandi of rodents. They live in filth and are always creating enviornments that turn into cesspools and breeding grounds for disease. Reptiles have been keeping rodent populations in check for years and that is a good thing. As well, the kingsnakes deserve credit for the way they keep rattlesnake populations down. Rattlesnakes bite a lot of people adult and child alike. They cause death and disability across the world. What would this world be like without reptiles in general? I shudder to think......:blink:

[prairiepanda]

I do not have an ethical problem with feeding f/t rats to my snakes, but I am concerned about getting my rats from ethical sources. I go for sources that treat the animals with respect and euthanize them humanely. I ask for pictures of the facility and ask about their euthanization process(they pretty much all use CO2, but they set it up in different ways and have different standards about certainty of death and length of time suffocating prior to death). I don't want to feed my snakes rats that have been kept in unhealthy conditions with 30 rats in a shoebox where it's impossible to tell whether some have died.

I have the same concern about the meat I eat. I buy locally produced meat so that I know they didn't come from a "meat factory" type farm. If I have any suspicions about a farmer, I can easily drive out and take a look at their farm. I'm satisfied that my meat is ethically sourced, as is that of my snakes.

To be honest, the one that bothers me the most is the cat food. I really have no idea how those meat animals are treated. Unfortunately I don't really have a choice because my cat requires a prescription diet. Otherwise I would be just as picky with her food as with everyone else's. But I'm not going to disown my cat because of questionable meat sources. I know even ethical farms cause other animals to suffer via habitat destruction, so I can't really escape that anyway.

[bigsnakegirl785]

No, I don't have a problem with it. I don't view any animal as better or worse than another animal based on it's mental abilities or how it feels emotions. I don't care as much about animals that aren't close to me. That said, I also don't like to abuse or see animals abused, which is why I feed f/t it's safer for my snake and keeps the rat/rabbit/mouse out of the stressful situation being hunted is. I prefer to raise my own animals so I know exactly what goes into them and how they're treated, but life can't always be the way you want it to. So I use trusted sources to buy my food from for now.

[SSSSnakes]

I don't have the same ethics when it comes to feeding rats to my snakes. They have to eat and survive themselves.

I do get your standpoint and it's cool with me. I wouldn't say you're right or wrong here, it's just the way you are and how you feel. Nothing wrong with that.

Enjoy your lizards!

Lizards eat live insects, it is still life. What makes insects or fish any less of a living creature?

[RAD House]

Lizards eat live insects, it is still life. What makes insects or fish any less of a living creature?

The ability for humans to pick and choose which life we want to respect is dumbfounding. "My hypocrisy knows no bounds."

[Aaron_S]

Lizards eat live insects, it is still life. What makes insects or fish any less of a living creature?

Crested geckos eat a pre-made food. What makes you think the OP has only bug eaters?

Also, I don't know why this is directed at me. As I said I have no issue with any of it. Ask the person who does.

[SSSSnakes]

Crested geckos eat a pre-made food. What makes you think the OP has only bug eaters?

Also, I don't know why this is directed at me. As I said I have no issue with any of it. Ask the person who does.

Crested geckos also eat crickets. This was not directed at you. I was only quoting part of what you said. The post was not intended to be an attack on anyone.

[elkied243]

I'd like to see somebody who currently has pet rats/mice comment on this! That'd be interesting.

I used to own mice and I used to feed live (please don't bash me, this was only on certain occasions when feeding my friend's snake, never my own). Feeding live gives me the willies, I fear for the snake and I feel for the mouse.

However my personal opinion is that there are going to be people always owning and feeding their snakes therefore there are always going to be dead rodents, I don't feel like it is ethically wrong because it is naturally right. I never feel guilty eating a burger and I don't feel guilty keeping my snakes happy.

I must say I don't understand your view that rats/mice are "higher animals". Never been tagged by a snake (yet) but have a wicked scar from my childhood mouse. Not saying snakes are affectionate but in my opinion they aren't "lower" just because they lack the chemical ability to feel affection. THey are magnificent animals...rats and mice simply are not (IMO).

[Minkness]

I personally hate hamsters for the same reason elkied lol

A friend of mine when I was younger had a corn snake and a punch of live mice for feeders. Out of those feeders she would get attached to one or two, and so kept them as pets, and started breeding her own feeders just because she could, but she had no issues feeding the babies and other feeders. (She was partial to keeping the colored mice as pets and using the white ones as feeders).

I would have no issues having pet mice/rats and feeding my snakes because I would still purchase f/t as feeders, and would most likely not breed my own since I can't personally euthinize them and won't feed live.

[SoPhilly]

I used to own mice, and a rat. I don't have ethical problems feeding either, but interestingly, I actually do feel more sad about feeding rats than I do mice - just cause in my personal experience, rats are loving and loyal, like really tiny dogs, whereas mice are generally little a*holes. Think about trying to feed little frozen puppies to your snake... there's no actual ethical difference in my mind, but in my heart? Way harder.

That being said, pigs are also intelligent, loving, social animals, and I'm sure not above bacon.

I have helped save the life of a crippled baby lamb, bottle-feeding it at 2 and 4 am for months, and I can still put away some lamb chops.

I have also eaten snake. So there ya go.

There is really no way to avoid the hypocrisy inherent in loving certain animals and murdering and eating others. I'm comfortable with this - it's either get comfortable with it or weep every time I'm hungry. I'm with Eminart and pet snake 78, to be alive is to cause death. I do try to make choices that cause as little unnecessary suffering as possible, when I can, so I try to get my feeders from sources that euthanize as humanely as possible.

I won't eat veal tho. That whole scene is just godawful.

[Pogie]

I don't have a problem feeding mice/rats to snakes. The way I see it you could compare it with other pets such as dogs and cats. Just because it don't look like a chicken, cow or horse don't mean we aren't feeding those animals to our critters. I think mostly it's because the mouse still "looks" like a mouse and not ground up into kibble. I myself love meat, pork, beef and poultry. So no I don't have a problem feeding snakes :)

My husband commented on the mouse I was feeding Tyrion the other day said it was to bad we had to feed him those. All the while I was thawing hamburger out to cook on the grill, his favorite food rotfl. So I said why, when your about to chow out on that cow? lol.

I don't care for the feeding live. Again it happens in the wild but I don't want to see the thing get killed myself. But same for any meat I eat. I don't want to kill it but I sure will eat it.

[Pogie]

I'd like to see somebody who currently has pet rats/mice comment on this! That'd be interesting.

I used to own mice and I used to feed live (please don't bash me, this was only on certain occasions when feeding my friend's snake, never my own). Feeding live gives me the willies, I fear for the snake and I feel for the mouse.

However my personal opinion is that there are going to be people always owning and feeding their snakes therefore there are always going to be dead rodents, I don't feel like it is ethically wrong because it is naturally right. I never feel guilty eating a burger and I don't feel guilty keeping my snakes happy.

I must say I don't understand your view that rats/mice are "higher animals". Never been tagged by a snake (yet) but have a wicked scar from my childhood mouse. Not saying snakes are affectionate but in my opinion they aren't "lower" just because they lack the chemical ability to feel affection. THey are magnificent animals...rats and mice simply are not (IMO).

I do have a pet rat and a hamster :) And no it still don't bother me to feed the f/t mice to Tyrion. It's all about how you look at the animal. My pets are just that, pets. The mice I buy (frozen) ones are just snake food.

[prairiepanda]

I have never kept rats because I grew up in that peculiar Alberta-shaped hole in the rat distribution map:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/Brown_rat_distribution.png

I probably would have had them if I grew up somewhere else. But I did have gerbils(like mini, somewhat less intelligent rats; not the hateful critters that hamsters and mice are) and I even bred them to explore their complicated colour/pattern genes. They were great pets and I loved them dearly. I produced many babies and when I rehomed them I ensured they were going to responsible owners who would care for them well; adopters had to pass a knowledge test and show me the enclosures they had set up before they could take any home(I gave them away for free though). Two guys were interested in getting breeding trios to produce snake food(gerbils are a bit larger than mice, sort of ASF size, and since we couldn't have ASFs in Alberta gerbils filled the size gap for certain snakes) One guy wanted to feed them bird seed, refused to show me the enclosures he planned to use, and even picked up a gerbil by the tail when he came to look at them! So he didn't get any from me. But the other guy came and talked to the gerbils and petted them, passed my knowledge test, and brought two very spacious cages with plenty of mental stimulation but without any major hazards for babies, so I was happy to give him a trio. Yes, their offspring would become food, but I knew they would be taken care of properly before reaching that point and I'm sure the snakes were equally well cared-for.

[reptiledude987]

that map is so strange. How is that gap even possible?

[mistersprinkles]

that map is so strange. How is that gap even possible?

Alberta paid the Pied Piper big bucks to clear all the rats out back in the late 1800s. That's why.

I'm surprised my little post has caused so much discussion. I do not have any reptiles at this time. Why am I on a snake forum? Because I like snakes, and I like snake people. I am still interested, but from afar. I would likely never have another snakes, except perhaps an egg, fish, or insect eater. No more rats and mice.

Also there was a time when there were no rats or mice in pet stores for months in my area so I bought a pair of hamsters and... ya... so there's t hat.

[prairiepanda]

that map is so strange. How is that gap even possible?

Rats weren't native to north america; they were introduced via ships from Europe. Alberta got their anti-rat laws going before the rats had spread far enough to become well-established in the province. Everyone in Alberta is allowed(and encouraged) to kill rats on sight, whether they be wild or captive, and there are provincial entities that farmers can call in to exterminate rats for free. There is zero tolerance for any live rats whatsoever. Some people are bold enough to secretly keep pet rats that they brought from other provinces, but it's risky since guests can legally kill them without question and the fines if you're reported are pretty hefty. Pet shops can bring in frozen rats from out of province, though.

[Eggplant]

When I feed live or frozen I always hold the mousie and tell it that I'm grateful :) it can feed my snake.

I don't think people can justify the act of feeding their pets things that used to be/ are alive. Just cause all kinds of **** happens all the time doesn't mean it's "right" or "ethical". Just cause the law says so don't mean its ok! I don't think that people can justify killing animals/ the environment etc.

However, I always tell myself that I need to remember that I am a human; just another animal plodding along. To question these things is really a luxury. We have urges that we cant help feel (though people try to curb them to varying degrees of success): hunger, greed, complacency, lust, etc. I try to remember that I am also a creature of nature!

I love eating! I do so even though I know about the horrible egg/ meat farms. Even though I know large scale farming of plants (food, cotton, all kinds of other things we use everyday) cause severe harm to ecosystems everywhere. I know how we get our energy and how damaging that is. But I want to live! Is that right or wrong I cant say. But I don't think that's a question we can really answer. Every day I am reminded of this and all I can do is not forget it and be grateful for everything I can have right now at the expense of so much. !!

ed: oh yeah and try to help a bit by supporting people who do try to change things though action

[pet_snake_78]

Egg eaters would be a good choice, I have a pair and absolutely love them. Just make sure they are feeding on Quail eggs or you'll be breeding finches, too. I occasionally get area parents who are asking me about snakes that won't need mice mainly because the mice just creep them out rather than an ethical issue but you could really fill a nice void by working with some other species. If you're willing to breed finches too you could produce egg eating snakes.

[Pogie]

Alberta paid the Pied Piper big bucks to clear all the rats out back in the late 1800s. That's why.

I'm surprised my little post has caused so much discussion. I do not have any reptiles at this time. Why am I on a snake forum? Because I like snakes, and I like snake people. I am still interested, but from afar. I would likely never have another snakes, except perhaps an egg, fish, or insect eater. No more rats and mice.

Also there was a time when there were no rats or mice in pet stores for months in my area so I bought a pair of hamsters and... ya... so there's t hat.

Curious as to why you would feed fish and insects but not mice/rats? What's the difference? Is it because the mice/rats have fur and the others you mentioned don't? Not slamming I just am really interested in what you think the difference is between these animals. Or bugs lol. I see or hear things like this often.

Either way something will die in order to feed the snakes.

[Minkness]

Garter snakes eat fish, lizards, frogs and toads. Also heard they eat bugs like crickets and locust. The egg eaters sound interesting but I personally am not a fan of birds and prefer to work up to breeding my own food source if possible. Have a dubia roach colony right now. I currently purchase and will probably always purchase, frozen rodents because live is a no no and I can't kill them myself.

I get where OP is coming from, I just love my animals more than I care to give into the morals or ethics of keeping them.

[Pogie]

Garter snakes eat fish, lizards, frogs and toads. Also heard they eat bugs like crickets and locust. The egg eaters sound interesting but I personally am not a fan of birds and prefer to work up to breeding my own food source if possible. Have a dubia roach colony right now. I currently purchase and will probably always purchase, frozen rodents because live is a no no and I can't kill them myself.

I get where OP is coming from, I just love my animals more than I care to give into the morals or ethics of keeping them.

Same here I couldn't kill something if my life depended on it lol. I like all critters, don't matter if they have scales, fur or bald rotfl. Thank goodness for someone who does it for me or I wouldn't have a snake.

[jjhill001]

I do cringe when I see the stereotypical video feed of someone feeding live to the tune of a Screamo band. It's pretty well accepted that snakes should be on F/t when possible for the benefit of all involved. However, when people become so far from the sources of our food, as most are today, we begin to become divorced from the reality of the food chain. Just by existing every human on earth is killing thousands of animals. The house you live in has killed dozens of animals when being built and prevented hundreds of others from having a place to be born and live. The roads you drive on kill and injure tens of thousands of animals daily.. right now there are deer with broken legs waiting to die, turtles about to be smashed by oncoming traffic, etc. Right now there are chickens being killed so you can eat. Cows will be slaughtered today and the meat hung on a hook. SO in retrospect, do I think feeding a thawed mouse to a snake is a moral issue... no way.

Even if you don't eat meat, you will kill thousands of animals. Pesticides, land clear, tractors chopping animals to pieces, water being taken from wildlife habitat and sprayed onto monocultured fields designed specifically to prevent any type of ecosystem from living in there so the plants can maximize their enegy, etc. There is no way any human can exist without resulting in the death of thousands if not millions of other animals in his or her lifetime.

Not even close to true. There was a 30-40 page thread on BP.net where people ferociously argued this same topic.

[millertime89]

Not even close to true. There was a 30-40 page thread on BP.net where people ferociously argued this same topic.

Sorry, but no. F/t is better as long as the animal will take it. There is no benefit to live feeding despite what is said on that forum. If you can find me scientific evidence that there is some advantage to feeding live vs f/t I'll listen.

[lady_bug87]

Bp.net.... i think I was on there for like an hour before I threw my hands up and said "nuts to this"

[jossh27]

i haven't read this entire thread, but whats the difference between feeding our pets live, or f/t over us (people) eating any kind of meat? cows and chickens among tons of different animals are strictly bread to feed us. - rats and mice are no different in my eyes.... maybe I'm a jerk, but i couldn't care less about the life of a mouse or rat or even a cow for that matter so long as it dies without suffering

[Rattlehead]

About 2 months ago my supplier of f/t mice had a shortage. I had to find new feeders, and I found a store with better looking animals. The thing is that they only sell them live, so I've been doing the dirty job myself. Last time I tried the CO2 method, mixing white vinegar and baking soda in a container. Most of the mice fainted quickly, but there were 3 that resisted a lot, for minutes. Felt bad for those little guys, but like my gf and other people in this thread say, there are animals being used as food everywhere.

[kuester]

This is the reason i feed frozen/thawed. I'd actually like to keep a pet rat one day but just as you said I'd feel too bad. Even though i feed frozen/thawed i still have this feeling that you've explained come over me but then i think the rats suffering is already done, i love my snakes very much and since they're captive i must provide for them. Also i would never feed live but in the wild that's just natural. Not even just for snakes but any predator the Prey suffers usually. And snakes can bond too! They may not have as deep as a connection but they can bond. My snakes all are used to my scent and so while other people can hold them just fine they always try to slither back to me because I'm safe, recognizable and familiar. I think to myself that they love me but i know this isn't the case with reptiles. Also my corn is pretty attached to my doberman, not my other dog. Both my dogs have the same demeanor and personality but my corn will sleep with my doberman and not my other dog.

[kuester]

And like others have said everything eats something
I think how we humans slaughter our meats is far worse than a snake eating a rat.

[jjhill001]

Sorry, but no. F/t is better as long as the animal will take it. There is no benefit to live feeding despite what is said on that forum. If you can find me scientific evidence that there is some advantage to feeding live vs f/t I'll listen.

Gonna post excerpts and also the link to the article.

Pros of Live
... The single biggest advantage live or fresh-killed rodents have over their frozen counterparts is simply that they are the freshest food source available. No proteins, vitamins or nutrients have been lost through time spent in the freezer. There seems to be a misconception on the part of frozen enthusiasts that there is no breakdown of these components in frozen, no doubt started by those who market frozen. Don't believe me? Go to your doctor and tell him you intend to raise your new baby on nothing but frozen foods from birth to adulthood and see what he says. Be prepared for a visit shortly after by child services. Also consider that human food gets lots of preservatives and additives designed to offset these losses, while frozen rodents get nothing. If there's no losses, why would profit hungry corporations go to the extra time and expense of adding these? The answer seems self-evident.

Another strong advantage of utilizing live pinkies and fuzzies is that they can be simply dropped in the cage and left overnight with stubborn feeders or new hatchlings. Small frozen rodents will quickly begin to decay and must be removed quickly from the cage if not eaten immediately. Many snakes resent the intrusion into the cage, and may not calm down enough to feed before the item must be removed. Other new babies may prefer to feed at night. This can make use of frozen foods impractical in large collections. ...


Pros of Frozen


... There's really only one advantage to using frozen feeder rodents and that's convenience. Being able store a small quantity of frozen mice behind the frozen lasagna will eliminate a few trips to the store. You might even get a slightly better price by purchasing in quantity...


Cons of Frozen


... Earlier in this article, we touched on loss of vitamins, minerals and nutrients during the freezing process. But we did not mention that the length of time spent in the freezer can increase these losses, not to mention cause freezer burn. It is recommended that you obtain the freshest frozen rodents possible. Making the assumption that your store has provided fresh ones can be a mistake, they may have been in the back of their freezer for months (or worse). Many commercial sources for frozen rodents will date each package with the date frozen, a real help in determining freshness.


Now let's talk about problems with the method of feeding frozen. First and foremost, the frozen rodent MUST be thawed COMPLETELY before use. Each year we get several inquiries from keepers who have failed to do this and are having serious medical problems with their pets as a result. We always hold the rodent in the hand, feeling the thickest parts (especially the head) for any cool temperatures which might indicate that it is not completely thawed before feeding.


But remember, over-thawing can be a whole lot worse! Read the label on a package of chicken. See where it discusses the dangers of exposing it to room temperatures? Well, this is exactly what you MUST do before feeding a frozen rodent! And this rodent is complete, with all gut content and bacteria, not to mention urine and feces, while the chicken has been stripped of all such nasties. So here we are, deliberately exposing a tainted piece of meat to dangerous temperatures before happily handing it to our pet. Sound bad? Well it is.


Salmonella and other nasty organisms can develop amazingly fast, and the real danger here is hidden. You happily feed without knowing and suddenly your snake has slimy green feces and is losing weight faster than an anorexic fashion model. Oh, and remember when you had to touch it to see if it was thawed? Now YOU'VE been exposed! Like it says on that chicken package, always wash hands and surfaces thoroughly with disinfectant (including feeding tongs or similar) after use.


Attempt to minimize the exposure to room temperatures. Thaw as quickly as possible, and offer immediately to your snake. Remove uneaten rodents quickly from the cage, in thirty minutes or less. many keepers will use the microwave oven to quickly thaw rodents. We don't recommend this for several reasons: It's easy to overheat the rodent and burn your snake. It's easy to accidentally cook portions of the meat (which reptiles cannot digest properly). It exposes your microwave oven to the same potential diseases as discussed above. many keepers will place the rodent inside a Ziploc bag and thaw in warm water. This greatly increases the rate of thawing and is the preferred method...


Conclusion


...the best and safest food source for captive snakes is fresh-killed rodents from clean disease-free stock...

Source: VMS Herp

The Learning Center - Live (F/K) vs Frozen (F/T) (http://www.vmsherp.com/LCLivevsFrozen.htm)

[Aaron_S]

This article lost me right at the end. Once it spoke about using a microwave to thaw rodents. The writer's clearly did no research and just added reasons not to based on building a case for their argument.

If anyone has ever tried to thaw a rodent in a microwave it doesn't do what they say it does. Usually they burst.

Secondly, snakes and humans have completely different physiology when it comes to eating. Snakes can eat whole prey at time of birth whereas humans cannot. So the analogy at the start is flawed.

Continuing with a similar line of thinking. What bacteria may be present on a rat doesn't necessarily translate to being dangerous for the snake. Besides snakes eat rotten food all the time in the wild and they are completely okay. Why is the thawed version different? Do the snakes not eat all the gut flora in a fress-killed rodent just the same as the frozen one? The same "dangerous" gut flora this article speaks about?

This writer also clearly never raised baby snakes. Following with the previous point that snakes can and do eat nasty decaying prey items in the wild it is perfectly okay to leave a thawed rodent in with a snake for longer than 30 minutes. I, and many others, leave them in over night and dispose of them the following morning.

Interesting note, they start the article off by saying they've formed a few opinions on this topic. By the end they are commenting as if it's fact. It is merely their opinion with no substantial evidence to prove it one way or the other. I do not see them mentioning any studies to determine the loss of nutrients or otherwise and how deterimental those are to the growth of snakes in various life stages.

It is merely opinion as they so say.

[RAD House]

That is nothing but the opinion of VMS and it is opposed to what scientific studies have found about frozen food.

[bigsnakegirl785]

This is the reason i feed frozen/thawed. I'd actually like to keep a pet rat one day but just as you said I'd feel too bad. Even though i feed frozen/thawed i still have this feeling that you've explained come over me but then i think the rats suffering is already done, i love my snakes very much and since they're captive i must provide for them. Also i would never feed live but in the wild that's just natural. Not even just for snakes but any predator the Prey suffers usually. And snakes can bond too! They may not have as deep as a connection but they can bond. My snakes all are used to my scent and so while other people can hold them just fine they always try to slither back to me because I'm safe, recognizable and familiar. I think to myself that they love me but i know this isn't the case with reptiles. Also my corn is pretty attached to my doberman, not my other dog. Both my dogs have the same demeanor and personality but my corn will sleep with my doberman and not my other dog.

You really shouldn't be allowing your snake and dogs in contact with each other. That's how you lose a snake.


As far as frozen not having as many nutrients...does it really seem like it makes much of a difference? They grow just as well on f/t as any snake raised on live, they aren't malnourished, and they seem healthy if all other husbandry is good. Is an insignificant amount of supposed nutritional benefit really worth putting your snakes' lives at risk?

[RAD House]

Here is an article that shows percentage of lost nutrients due to the different steps in food processing. You can see that freezing is pretty minimal especially compared to cooking food. Nutritional Effects of Food Processing – NutritionData.com (http://nutritiondata.self.com/topics/processing#cooking)

[millertime89]

i haven't read this entire thread, but whats the difference between feeding our pets live, or f/t over us (people) eating any kind of meat? cows and chickens among tons of different animals are strictly bread to feed us. - rats and mice are no different in my eyes.... maybe I'm a jerk, but i couldn't care less about the life of a mouse or rat or even a cow for that matter so long as it dies without suffering

I don't really care about the prey, it's my animal I care about. Live prey can fight back.

And snakes can bond too! They may not have as deep as a connection but they can bond.

No they can't.

Also my corn is pretty attached to my doberman, not my other dog. Both my dogs have the same demeanor and personality but my corn will sleep with my doberman and not my other dog.

No he's not. Don't do it. This is just dumb. This is how pets get killed.


Pros of Live
... The single biggest advantage live or fresh-killed rodents have over their frozen counterparts is simply that they are the freshest food source available. No proteins, vitamins or nutrients have been lost through time spent in the freezer. There seems to be a misconception on the part of frozen enthusiasts that there is no breakdown of these components in frozen, no doubt started by those who market frozen. Don't believe me? Go to your doctor and tell him you intend to raise your new baby on nothing but frozen foods from birth to adulthood and see what he says. Be prepared for a visit shortly after by child services. Also consider that human food gets lots of preservatives and additives designed to offset these losses, while frozen rodents get nothing. If there's no losses, why would profit hungry corporations go to the extra time and expense of adding these? The answer seems self-evident.

There's a difference between frozen food and processed and preserved food. A doctor will ask what kind of frozen food. Frozen whole meats, fruits, and veggies are fine and keep remarkably well. Frozen TV dinners? Not so much...

Another strong advantage of utilizing live pinkies and fuzzies is that they can be simply dropped in the cage and left overnight with stubborn feeders or new hatchlings. Small frozen rodents will quickly begin to decay and must be removed quickly from the cage if not eaten immediately. Many snakes resent the intrusion into the cage, and may not calm down enough to feed before the item must be removed. Other new babies may prefer to feed at night. This can make use of frozen foods impractical in large collections. ...

You can do this with f/t pinkies and fuzzies. They don't decay that quickly. Shall I get one and perform an experiment? I just might actually...

In all collections you should make adjustments to your schedule to accommodate the needs of your animals...


Pros of Frozen


... There's really only one advantage to using frozen feeder rodents and that's convenience. Being able store a small quantity of frozen mice behind the frozen lasagna will eliminate a few trips to the store. You might even get a slightly better price by purchasing in quantity...

Convenience, cost, lack of danger to the predator. It's nice not having to buy snake food every week. Live prey is typically very expensive compared to frozen bought in bulk. Finally, live prey can fight back. It's happened to many people. It happened to my cousin with his pet corn snake, he put a small mouse in and came back 30 minutes later to a dead corn snake and a bloody mouse. As you mentioned above, some snakes don't like to be disturbed while eating, if the prey item is quick enough it can kill the snake before the snake can settle down from the intrusion to the point where it's comfortable enough to eat.


Cons of Frozen


... Earlier in this article, we touched on loss of vitamins, minerals and nutrients during the freezing process. But we did not mention that the length of time spent in the freezer can increase these losses, not to mention cause freezer burn. It is recommended that you obtain the freshest frozen rodents possible. Making the assumption that your store has provided fresh ones can be a mistake, they may have been in the back of their freezer for months (or worse). Many commercial sources for frozen rodents will date each package with the date frozen, a real help in determining freshness.

Deterioration and loss of nutrients doesn't occur that rapidly.

Now let's talk about problems with the method of feeding frozen. First and foremost, the frozen rodent MUST be thawed COMPLETELY before use. Each year we get several inquiries from keepers who have failed to do this and are having serious medical problems with their pets as a result. We always hold the rodent in the hand, feeling the thickest parts (especially the head) for any cool temperatures which might indicate that it is not completely thawed before feeding.

This is accurate, however this comes down to people not being patient. Plan ahead and this isn't a problem.


But remember, over-thawing can be a whole lot worse! Read the label on a package of chicken. See where it discusses the dangers of exposing it to room temperatures? Well, this is exactly what you MUST do before feeding a frozen rodent! And this rodent is complete, with all gut content and bacteria, not to mention urine and feces, while the chicken has been stripped of all such nasties. So here we are, deliberately exposing a tainted piece of meat to dangerous temperatures before happily handing it to our pet. Sound bad? Well it is.

Snakes digestive systems are different from ours. Not only are they opportunistic but there are documented cases of them being scavengers and eating dead things that they find. If the bacteria in the prey item were a danger to the snake, we would have reports of the snake getting sick as a result.

Salmonella and other nasty organisms can develop amazingly fast, and the real danger here is hidden. You happily feed without knowing and suddenly your snake has slimy green feces and is losing weight faster than an anorexic fashion model. Oh, and remember when you had to touch it to see if it was thawed? Now YOU'VE been exposed! Like it says on that chicken package, always wash hands and surfaces thoroughly with disinfectant (including feeding tongs or similar) after use.

Again, differences in physiology. You should ALWAYS wash your hands anyways...

Attempt to minimize the exposure to room temperatures. Thaw as quickly as possible, and offer immediately to your snake. Remove uneaten rodents quickly from the cage, in thirty minutes or less. many keepers will use the microwave oven to quickly thaw rodents. We don't recommend this for several reasons: It's easy to overheat the rodent and burn your snake. It's easy to accidentally cook portions of the meat (which reptiles cannot digest properly). It exposes your microwave oven to the same potential diseases as discussed above. many keepers will place the rodent inside a Ziploc bag and thaw in warm water. This greatly increases the rate of thawing and is the preferred method...

As stated, snakes eat rotten prey and it doesn't negatively affect them in any way. 30 minutes? That's laughable. Some of my snakes need to be left alone for quite a bit longer than that just to start eating. Decay doesn't begin that quickly.

Microwave? That's a bad idea. You know what happens when something sealed is microwaved? Pop. I don't want to clean up rat guts in my microwave.

Conclusion


...the best and safest food source for captive snakes is fresh-killed rodents from clean disease-free stock...

No.

[Eggplant]

Not totally related but:
Tragic moment white mouse tries to rescue another mouse from the jaws of a giant snake by jumping on its head...but fails | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2397070/Tragic-moment-white-mouse-tries-rescue-mouse-jaws-giant-snake-jumping-head--fails.html)

Mousie hero!

[jjhill001]

I was just pointing out that its not just some cut and dry everyone agrees situation. When that is a major breeder that has some differing opinions. I'm sure there are more.

[Aaron_S]

I was just pointing out that its not just some cut and dry everyone agrees situation. When that is a major breeder that has some differing opinions. I'm sure there are more.

It's pretty cut and dry. Just because they have differing opinions doesn't make their point valid.

I don't get this. Just because I can think the sky is purple doesn't mean I have a valid opinion because I write it down somewhere.

[millertime89]

It's pretty cut and dry. Just because they have differing opinions doesn't make their point valid.

I don't get this. Just because I can think the sky is purple doesn't mean I have a valid opinion because I write it down somewhere.

Perfect analogy.

[RAD House]

Whoa guys go easy. When you have people that are as large and well known as VMS spouting half truths people tend to believe them.

[MDT]

the article from VMS is about as accurate that anything The Food Babe has suggested (made up)....

Good rule of thumb, if the article doesn't cite sources of it's data, or, it's bibliography contains "Cosmo" or "Good Housekeeping" as sources....it's time to find another article.

[jjhill001]

the article from VMS is about as accurate that anything The Food Babe has suggested (made up)....

Good rule of thumb, if the article doesn't cite sources of it's data, or, it's bibliography contains "Cosmo" or "Good Housekeeping" as sources....it's time to find another article.

Why can't experience count as a source? People are always citing their experience on the forums.

[millertime89]

Why can't experience count as a source? People are always citing their experience on the forums.

Because experience only goes so far. You can't cite experience when science gives proof of the opposite. Experience is fine when saying "retics have a stronger feeding response than corn snakes" but not "food loses nutrients after only 30 minutes of being exposed to room temperature once thawed"...

[MDT]

Why can't experience count as a source? People are always citing their experience on the forums.


Kyle hit the nail on the head.....opinion is one thing. Such as "I don't like frozen rats, it seems they don't have the same nutritional value as fresh."

versus... "I don't like frozen rats, they DO NOT have the same nutritional value as fresh".

One can have an opinion, that's fine. But you gotta be ready to revise your opinion when evidence exists to counter that in a factual basis. The facts are, that freezing a rat (or broccoli or peas or a rib eye) do not change the nutritional status to the point that you can quantify it without the aid of extremely sophisticated bio-assays. Practically speaking, it simply does not matter. So for a "care sheet" to spout this is not responsible.

There will always be Hucksters that will try to peddle pablum like this....(The Food Babe, Dr. Oz to name a couple)....

[kuester]

I know my dog and my corn snake.i trained my dogs from a very young age to accept the snakes. So maybe for people who dont train their dog properly (majority of people now a days) or people who think they know their dogs but dont. Also i dont leave them alone. Im there the whole time. I know i wont ever lose a snake because of my dogs. And i grew my corn from a 8in baby on frozen at 12 y/o hes 5'9"

[kuester]

My snake holds around my dogs neck and rides around. Ive even taking him like a walk like this before. You can all be incorrect abouy my specific situation. But ive been socializing my dogs and snakes for 7 years. My dogs wont even harm frogs and toads outside becausr ive trained them to be nice to small creatures and reps. My doberman is actually intimidated by cats, even at 90 lbs.

[kuester]

Millertime89 i know youre a forum moderator so no disrespect but you are inccorect in my case. I know my animals very well and i will not stop doing what ive been doing and i will not stop believing what i believe because you say different. I know what im doing and what my pets are doing. My apologies but its my choices and i promise i wont lose any animals.

[Aaron_S]

My snake holds around my dogs neck and rides around. Ive even taking him like a walk like this before. You can all be incorrect abouy my specific situation. But ive been socializing my dogs and snakes for 7 years. My dogs wont even harm frogs and toads outside becausr ive trained them to be nice to small creatures and reps. My doberman is actually intimidated by cats, even at 90 lbs.

Your snake can't be socialized. Your dog can.

Your snake holds onto the your dogs neck because who wants to fall to the ground?

[Shann]

I know my dog and my corn snake.i trained my dogs from a very young age to accept the snakes. So maybe for people who dont train their dog properly (majority of people now a days) or people who think they know their dogs but dont. Also i dont leave them alone. Im there the whole time. I know i wont ever lose a snake because of my dogs. And i grew my corn from a 8in baby on frozen at 12 y/o hes 5'9"

So you think if your snake bites your dog it is just going to stand there and take it? I had a very well trained dog. I would trust that dog with anything. But I still wouldn't let my snake out around him. Why run the risk? And even beyond that, what if the snake fell and was stepped on? I just don't see the point. All risk, no reward, as the only affection the snake feels is imagined by the keeper.

[RAD House]

I in no way condone letting your snake hanging around your dogs neck or leaving them around with out you physically holding the snake. I do see some benefit in allowing your dogs to socialize with the snakes for dog training purposes. For example should my snakes ever escape I want my dogs to know they are not food or a toy. Unfortunately they only way to make this connection for a dog is smell and reinforcement.

[reptiledude987]

I in no way condone letting your snake hanging around your dogs neck or leaving them around with out you physically holding the snake. I do see some benefit in allowing your dogs to socialize with the snakes for dog training purposes. For example should my snakes ever escape I want my dogs to know they are not food or a toy. Unfortunately they only way to make this connection for a dog is smell and reinforcement.
I agree with this. I allowed my dog to socialize around the reptiles only enough for her to know theyre not a threat to her or a toy. With the slim hope that if any ever escaped she may be helpful in finding them without killing them to show that she found it. However when my nile was around 9 months old it was wandering the house somewhere I couldnt find it for a little better than a month and she was useless at tracking it. She was a boxer rottweiler cross no not a tracking breed in the first place. Point is having any further interaction between snake and dog beyond teaching the dog not to try to attack the snake is a bad idea.

[kuester]

Like i said originally they usually sleep together. Occasionally he'll wrap around my dogs neck. I know what it looks like if the snakes going to let go and would prevent it if it ever came to that. Also my snakes never been aggressive towards anythiny so i doubt hed bite and even if he did i doubt it would phase my dog. And my dog doesnt as much as move an inch without looking to me for permission. Literally he looks to me for permission to get up, go outside and even to go get some food/water.

You guys can think its a bad idea, but nothing bad will ever happen i can guarantee it and if something ever does ill be sure to post on here saying i know you all told me so.

But why are we going on about my life choices when theyre my decision to make when this post is about ethics of snake food? Please get off my back im not changing my ways and my beliefs for people i dont know.

[RAD House]

I don't think anyone here wants to be proven right in this case as your pets will be the ones who are punished not you. You are opperating as if nothing could ever go wrong and that is just not realistic. No one here pretends to know your situation, they are just saying it is not worth the risk. No mater how well you train a dog you will never completely destroy instinct.

[Aaron_S]

Like i said originally they usually sleep together. Occasionally he'll wrap around my dogs neck. I know what it looks like if the snakes going to let go and would prevent it if it ever came to that. Also my snakes never been aggressive towards anythiny so i doubt hed bite and even if he did i doubt it would phase my dog. And my dog doesnt as much as move an inch without looking to me for permission. Literally he looks to me for permission to get up, go outside and even to go get some food/water.

You guys can think its a bad idea, but nothing bad will ever happen i can guarantee it and if something ever does ill be sure to post on here saying i know you all told me so.

But why are we going on about my life choices when theyre my decision to make when this post is about ethics of snake food? Please get off my back im not changing my ways and my beliefs for people i dont know.

1. I believe most people are putting out their opinions on this matter as hopefully anyone new reading this thread realizes it's a huge risk and do not follow in your foot steps.

2. I wonder the same thing as you. Why is this discussion about ethics of snake food and you bring up the idea of your dog and snake hanging out? Do they eat from the same bowl? Other than that I don't see the connection...

[kuester]

Yes everyone else can do things their way i was stating my situation. The guy who started the thread stated that rats bond, feel pain and enjoy happiness i was just relating snakes to the same thing.

[bigsnakegirl785]

I know my dog and my corn snake.i trained my dogs from a very young age to accept the snakes. So maybe for people who dont train their dog properly (majority of people now a days) or people who think they know their dogs but dont. Also i dont leave them alone. Im there the whole time. I know i wont ever lose a snake because of my dogs. And i grew my corn from a 8in baby on frozen at 12 y/o hes 5'9"

My snake holds around my dogs neck and rides around. Ive even taking him like a walk like this before. You can all be incorrect abouy my specific situation. But ive been socializing my dogs and snakes for 7 years. My dogs wont even harm frogs and toads outside becausr ive trained them to be nice to small creatures and reps. My doberman is actually intimidated by cats, even at 90 lbs.

Millertime89 i know youre a forum moderator so no disrespect but you are inccorect in my case. I know my animals very well and i will not stop doing what ive been doing and i will not stop believing what i believe because you say different. I know what im doing and what my pets are doing. My apologies but its my choices and i promise i wont lose any animals.

Doesn't matter. You cannot predict any animal, no matter how "well trained" or socialized it may be. It is a living being, there is no predicting it or trusting it not to follow its instincts 100% of the time. You are putting your snakes in a very dangerous situation, and if you had a giant, you'd be putting your dog into a very dangerous situation as well. This is highly irresponsible, and it's not a matter of "if" you lose a pet from these interactions, but "when."

Even with you right there, it just takes a split second and one of your snakes could be in that dog's mouth.

[Jrich]

I don't know about everyone else but I feel satisfied when feeding my snakes f/t rodents. My snakes have to eat and I am providing them food in the safest way possible just like how a mother feels when she is feeding her children a delicious nutritious chicken dinner. Lol! That being said I don't know why people get so entangled in the idea that snakes "bond" or have "lovey dovey" feelings because they don't. I also don't understand why people get upset over this concept either because at the end of the day snakes are truly fascinating creatures and have a lot to teach us and are very rewarding to care for. It's so cool to be able to understand and care for an animal much different than yourself.

[D Grade]

I do cringe when I see the stereotypical video feed of someone feeding live to the tune of a Screamo band. It's pretty well accepted that snakes should be on F/t when possible for the benefit of all involved. However, when people become so far from the sources of our food, as most are today, we begin to become divorced from the reality of the food chain. Just by existing every human on earth is killing thousands of animals. The house you live in has killed dozens of animals when being built and prevented hundreds of others from having a place to be born and live. The roads you drive on kill and injure tens of thousands of animals daily.. right now there are deer with broken legs waiting to die, turtles about to be smashed by oncoming traffic, etc. Right now there are chickens being killed so you can eat. Cows will be slaughtered today and the meat hung on a hook. SO in retrospect, do I think feeding a thawed mouse to a snake is a moral issue... no way.

Even if you don't eat meat, you will kill thousands of animals. Pesticides, land clear, tractors chopping animals to pieces, water being taken from wildlife habitat and sprayed onto monocultured fields designed specifically to prevent any type of ecosystem from living in there so the plants can maximize their enegy, etc. There is no way any human can exist without resulting in the death of thousands if not millions of other animals in his or her lifetime.

Mice and rats have been wreaking havoc on populations throughout history. They spread diseases and destroy crops. They have been a scourge and a danger to infants and children in inner cities for eons. Oh, they do have cute faces and the ability to have higher brain functions but look at the motis operandi of rodents. They live in filth and are always creating enviornments that turn into cesspools and breeding grounds for disease. Reptiles have been keeping rodent populations in check for years and that is a good thing. As well, the kingsnakes deserve credit for the way they keep rattlesnake populations down. Rattlesnakes bite a lot of people adult and child alike. They cause death and disability across the world. What would this world be like without reptiles in general? I shudder to think......:blink:

Best two responses in this thread.

To be honest, the one that bothers me the most is the cat food. I really have no idea how those meat animals are treated. Unfortunately I don't really have a choice because my cat requires a prescription diet. Otherwise I would be just as picky with her food as with everyone else's. But I'm not going to disown my cat because of questionable meat sources. I know even ethical farms cause other animals to suffer via habitat destruction, so I can't really escape that anyway.

Cat and dog food companies buy their "meal" in bulk from rendering plants. I used to work at one so Ill tell you whats in dog and cat food and hopefully persuade you and everyone here not to ever eat cat or dog food and to never let your kids get into it and decide to try it. Heres a list of everything that goes into dog and cat food.

- Spoiled or expired meats from grocery stores (beef, chicken, seafood, etc)
- Expired meats from fast food chains
- Dead livestock (cows, horses, etc)
- Road kill

So how does it work? Believe it or not there are people who specialize in removing dead livestock from farms and ranches for a living. They are paid by the people to come remove them and then are paid by the rendering plant by the pound for what they bring in. Since that is the case, they will pick up road kill along the way to gain every precious pound for the money. The rendering plants receive these dead animals rotting, decayed, rigamortis (spelling), and occasionally freshly dead. They're thrown into a grinder (full bowels and full bladders as-is). Next, the trucks from grocery stores and fast food chains show up and unload hundreds of pounds of expired meats of all types that the rendering plant buys discounted, they are also thrown into that same grinder. Everything is then sent into a large cooker and ground into a powder. The rendering plant then sells that ground powder to massive cat and dog food chains like Purina, Friskies, Fancy Feast, etc for a large profit. The food chains then add artificial flavoring they desire and mold the powder into whatever little fancy shape they want.

And that folks is where cat and dog food come from. And yes, it was one of the most disgusting jobs Ive ever had.

[Minkness]

Jeezus O.O

I could have lived the rest of my life not knowing this. x_x

[prairiepanda]

Best two responses in this thread.



Cat and dog food companies buy their "meal" in bulk from rendering plants. I used to work at one so Ill tell you whats in dog and cat food and hopefully persuade you and everyone here not to ever eat cat or dog food and to never let your kids get into it and decide to try it. Heres a list of everything that goes into dog and cat food.

- Spoiled or expired meats from grocery stores (beef, chicken, seafood, etc)
- Expired meats from fast food chains
- Dead livestock (cows, horses, etc)
- Road kill

So how does it work? Believe it or not there are people who specialize in removing dead livestock from farms and ranches for a living. They are paid by the people to come remove them and then are paid by the rendering plant by the pound for what they bring in. Since that is the case, they will pick up road kill along the way to gain every precious pound for the money. The rendering plants receive these dead animals rotting, decayed, rigamortis (spelling), and occasionally freshly dead. They're thrown into a grinder (full bowels and full bladders as-is). Next, the trucks from grocery stores and fast food chains show up and unload hundreds of pounds of expired meats of all types that the rendering plant buys discounted, they are also thrown into that same grinder. Everything is then sent into a large cooker and ground into a powder. The rendering plant then sells that ground powder to massive cat and dog food chains like Purina, Friskies, Fancy Feast, etc for a large profit. The food chains then add artificial flavoring they desire and mold the powder into whatever little fancy shape they want.

And that folks is where cat and dog food come from. And yes, it was one of the most disgusting jobs Ive ever had.

I'm aware of such meat rendering plants, but I was under the impression that the slurries and powders resulting from that process went elsewhere. After all, if the meat in pet food came from some horrible almagamation of mystery animals, how could they list the ingredients by weight? Many pet foods now are listed as safe for human consumption, so they must adhere to the same food safety standards as our own food. I'm sure plenty of the poultry, fish, rabbit, etc. in my cat's food comes from sources that treat their animals poorly, but I would not expect any to come from a mystery meat rendering plant. I might have believed that back before pet foods become so strictly regulated, but not now. Pet food manufacturers can't legally list "chicken" as an ingredient when they really mean "powdered deer, cow, skunk, horse, etc." Even "chicken by-product meal" has restrictions on what it can contain, and honestly I wouldn't be disturbed at all to see it as an ingredient in human foods even though it looks nasty when they're making it. It's still edible and nutritious.

Expired grocery store meat? Maybe. But I eat that too because it's mega cheap.

[jjhill001]

Kyle hit the nail on the head.....opinion is one thing. Such as "I don't like frozen rats, it seems they don't have the same nutritional value as fresh."

versus... "I don't like frozen rats, they DO NOT have the same nutritional value as fresh".

One can have an opinion, that's fine. But you gotta be ready to revise your opinion when evidence exists to counter that in a factual basis. The facts are, that freezing a rat (or broccoli or peas or a rib eye) do not change the nutritional status to the point that you can quantify it without the aid of extremely sophisticated bio-assays. Practically speaking, it simply does not matter. So for a "care sheet" to spout this is not responsible.

There will always be Hucksters that will try to peddle pablum like this....(The Food Babe, Dr. Oz to name a couple)....

But the red statement is literally true. Because it changes. Not as much as presented by the author but it is different.

[RAD House]

It doesn't change enough to be concerned about, and definitely not enough to endanger the snakes health.

[MDT]

It doesn't change enough to be concerned about, and definitely not enough to endanger the snakes health.

This.....absolutely this.

freezing *may* change some of the water soluble vitamins.... a little..

i would love to see some scientific data on why frozen food is icky and fresh food is tha bomb.

not to include "men's health magazine", "woman's day", "good houskeeping", "the new york post", "the food babe or ANY internet pseudoscience blogger", or Dr. Oz"...

[SoPhilly]

I'm aware of such meat rendering plants, but I was under the impression that the slurries and powders resulting from that process went elsewhere. After all, if the meat in pet food came from some horrible almagamation of mystery animals, how could they list the ingredients by weight? Many pet foods now are listed as safe for human consumption, so they must adhere to the same food safety standards as our own food. I'm sure plenty of the poultry, fish, rabbit, etc. in my cat's food comes from sources that treat their animals poorly, but I would not expect any to come from a mystery meat rendering plant. I might have believed that back before pet foods become so strictly regulated, but not now. Pet food manufacturers can't legally list "chicken" as an ingredient when they really mean "powdered deer, cow, skunk, horse, etc." Even "chicken by-product meal" has restrictions on what it can contain, and honestly I wouldn't be disturbed at all to see it as an ingredient in human foods even though it looks nasty when they're making it. It's still edible and nutritious.

Expired grocery store meat? Maybe. But I eat that too because it's mega cheap.

You're half right. If the ingredients list says "chicken-by-product meal", then legally, that has to come from chickens. But you're obviously buying expensive to medium priced dog food if that's the worst you're seeing. LOTS of dog foods still contain "animal-by-product meal", which can be ANYTHING, and is a result of the roadkill/expired supermarket/dead farm animal slurry. Also watch out for "Animal fat", Meat-by-products" and "Meat and bone meal". It's in Purina Puppy Chow, Pedigree, Alpo, Beneful...

Legally, they're not lying to you.

Not saying there arent good dog/cat foods out there, but they're expensive and it's hard to tell.

So yeah, feeding my snakes a whole, intact, somewhat humanely killed single rodent is ethically fantastic to me, by comparison.

[D Grade]

I'm aware of such meat rendering plants, but I was under the impression that the slurries and powders resulting from that process went elsewhere. After all, if the meat in pet food came from some horrible almagamation of mystery animals, how could they list the ingredients by weight? Many pet foods now are listed as safe for human consumption, so they must adhere to the same food safety standards as our own food. I'm sure plenty of the poultry, fish, rabbit, etc. in my cat's food comes from sources that treat their animals poorly, but I would not expect any to come from a mystery meat rendering plant. I might have believed that back before pet foods become so strictly regulated, but not now. Pet food manufacturers can't legally list "chicken" as an ingredient when they really mean "powdered deer, cow, skunk, horse, etc." Even "chicken by-product meal" has restrictions on what it can contain, and honestly I wouldn't be disturbed at all to see it as an ingredient in human foods even though it looks nasty when they're making it. It's still edible and nutritious.

Expired grocery store meat? Maybe. But I eat that too because it's mega cheap.

You would be suprised. We live in a world where you cant believe everything you read, see, or hear because thats how sad a large majority of the human race is. If the government is REALLY regulating pet food, then why arent they regulating human food? Why are we still allowed to buy "sugar free" soft drinks and food that are loaded with artificial sweeteners which contain aspartime which is well documented to cause cancer and kidney issues? Because they care about animals more than humans? It wouldnt suprise me but I highly doubt it. If the FDA approves such disease causing chemicals in our food, why on earth are they truly going to care about where pet food is sources from?

[RAD House]

This is getting a little too conspiracy theory. The FDA is one of the largest and more powerful agencies in the United States. Getting something through them is incredibly hard and may take several years. If things like aspartame where as proven to cause cancer as you believe than the companies who produce these products would have gone out business long ago in this sue happy country. The truth about cancer is that we really have very little understanding of its causes. I am not alone in thinking the biggest reason for the rise of cancers is our ability to diagnose it and that people are living far longer.

[SSSSnakes]

It is now proven that EVERYTHING causes cancer in white mice.

[prairiepanda]

You're half right. If the ingredients list says "chicken-by-product meal", then legally, that has to come from chickens. But you're obviously buying expensive to medium priced dog food if that's the worst you're seeing. LOTS of dog foods still contain "animal-by-product meal", which can be ANYTHING, and is a result of the roadkill/expired supermarket/dead farm animal slurry. Also watch out for "Animal fat", Meat-by-products" and "Meat and bone meal". It's in Purina Puppy Chow, Pedigree, Alpo, Beneful...

Legally, they're not lying to you.

Not saying there arent good dog/cat foods out there, but they're expensive and it's hard to tell.

So yeah, feeding my snakes a whole, intact, somewhat humanely killed single rodent is ethically fantastic to me, by comparison.

I've never seen such vague ingredients on pet food, even the cheap Cat Chow and stuff like that. The least descriptive ingredient I've seen on cheap food was "poultry fat", which could be from a Frankenstein of different poultry birds, but shouldn't be anything too scary. Maybe the regulations in Canada area bit more strict? I definitely wouldn't buy a cat food that didn't identify what animal its meats/fats came from! Reminds me of some fruit bites I read the ingredients on once...something like "apple puree and/or bananas and/or pear puree and/or grape juice" so I jokingly called them "and/or bites"...but mystery fruit is a lot less scary than mystery meat. I always read pet food ingredients before buying, though, even on brands I regularly buy in case of formula changes. Hopefully I'll never see some vague ingredient like "animal fat" in the future!

It is now proven that EVERYTHING causes cancer in white mice.
Indeed, I'm always skeptical of all these announcements of normal everyday things causing cancer. The experiments that are taken by so many as proof involve exposing the lab animals to insane levels of the substance and also utilize mice that have been selectively bred to have a predisposition for developing cancer and/or tumors. Okay, so cancer-prone mice fed aspartame sometimes develop cancer sooner or more frequently than the also cancer-prone control group. To me, that just says don't consumer toxic levels of aspartame if you're genetically predisposed to developing cancer. Heck, you shouldn't be consuming toxic levels of it anyway since it would be, well, toxic. Aspartame tastes nasty anyway and is legitimately linked to heart disease, so we should avoid it, but I wouldn't be worried about cancer. And nobody's going to take it off the shelves because of it's link to heart disease, either; after all, we can still buy bacon whenever we please.

[RAD House]

If they even tried to take bacon off the shelf, I would lead the revolution.

[bigsnakegirl785]

If they even tried to take bacon off the shelf, I would lead the revolution.

I wouldn't, bacon is gross. Most pork anything is.

[MDT]

Queue Vincent Vega (Pulp Fiction): ...."bacon tastes good...pork chops taste good"...

'Nuff said.....

[sSAIRSCHUTTSs]

I do cringe when I see the stereotypical video feed of someone feeding live to the tune of a Screamo band. It's pretty well accepted that snakes should be on F/t when possible for the benefit of all involved. However, when people become so far from the sources of our food, as most are today, we begin to become divorced from the reality of the food chain. Just by existing every human on earth is killing thousands of animals. The house you live in has killed dozens of animals when being built and prevented hundreds of others from having a place to be born and live. The roads you drive on kill and injure tens of thousands of animals daily.. right now there are deer with broken legs waiting to die, turtles about to be smashed by oncoming traffic, etc. Right now there are chickens being killed so you can eat. Cows will be slaughtered today and the meat hung on a hook. SO in retrospect, do I think feeding a thawed mouse to a snake is a moral issue... no way.

Even if you don't eat meat, you will kill thousands of animals. Pesticides, land clear, tractors chopping animals to pieces, water being taken from wildlife habitat and sprayed onto monocultured fields designed specifically to prevent any type of ecosystem from living in there so the plants can maximize their enegy, etc. There is no way any human can exist without resulting in the death of thousands if not millions of other animals in his or her lifetime.




.... Could not have said it any better! 100% accurate and to the point.
People will continue to do these things, even if a percentage of the population (Vegans, vegetarians, ect) stop supporting their methods.
Fact is, everyone rely's on farmed meat.. as do our snakes.
The higher in the food web, the more options for dinner and our snakes have limited option compared to us humans.
Its just life, eat and survive.