Snakes ARE affectionate

[sophiedufort]

I've been reading a lot of divided opinions about this topic. A lot of people tend to believe that snakes are not affectionate. I opened this thread because I think that such statement is unfair and unfounded.
I am the proud parent of six snakes. I had four more, that passed away. My husband had snakes since he was a kid. He is now 46 years old. His friends used to call him 'the snake whisperer'.
A cold-blooded creature is not necessarily cold-hearted too. In fact, every creature is capable of loving, although the ability to display it may vary considerably from a species to another. The more you handle a pet, the more you get back in return.
Snakes are not display pets. If someone bought them for that purpose, then the poor snakes have fallen in the wrong hands.
Some snakes can be very docile, and often people say that their apparently 'loving' behavior is nothing more than that: being docile. I beg to differ. A docile snake lets his owner pet him, and can take a lot of petting without trying to squirm away. A loving snake, when petted, wraps around his owner, squeezes and massages gently, pokes his tongue out constantly, 'tasting' the owner, rests his head on the owner's head and face, cuddles next to the owner or on their lap, and quite often displays separation anxiety when put back in the enclosure.
Most of my snakes actively display their affection. They crawl on my husband and I, prefer our company, and even show jealousy when we handle another snake. They come to nose us, begging to be petted, and adopt a dominant posture trying to intimidate the other snake.
Many people will argue that it is just a display of their sense of security, the security we have created for them. Name it any way you want, it is still affection. If a creature does not feel love for another, they will not seek their company, and will not bother showing the need to be in another's presence.
We, people, display our love in very complex ways, and that's why more often than not are unable to recognize affection that is different than that between humans. Every pet is different, and will show their love in ways that sometimes we are unable to acknowledge and understand.
As for me, I learned to recognize my snake's display of love. It is apparent in their entire behavior during their interaction with me. Some are clingy, attention seekers, some are more independent and prefer to explore, but they will all show affection, one way or another. We do provide them with food and a safe heaven, and yes, they will come to us because of that, but it goes far beyond the sense of security, or the warmth of our body that they bask in.
Last, but not least, snakes are intelligent creatures. Every intelligent being is capable of love. It is the way they display it, and the myths that surround it, that make some of us skeptical about it.

[MDT]

Quod erat demonstrandum

[eminart]

Biologically, why would a snake exhibit "love"? They aren't social animals. The very word "love" is a human construct used to explain biological adaptations that promote the spread of our genes. Other social animals exhibit some of the same "love" behaviors as humans. Reptiles, insects, etc. not so much.

I think you're anthropromorhizing the actions of your snake - actions that can be explained in ways that make more sense for a snake's natural behavior. The human brain looks for patterns. It often finds patterns where there really are none, or misinterprets animal behavior by applying human logic.

[DDW]

Thanks for this. My parents still never believe it But I do.

[SSSSnakes]

Take your snakes outside and turn them loose. If they love you they will return.

[Sylphie]

Imo some snakes are really calm, inquisitive and don't mind being handled, even for hours. They'll crawl, curl and watch humans and everything just because they are curious and really calm and confident. They can also recognize the smell of one person or get used to woman/man hands... but as eminart said they can't love someone, they just not that type of animal, they don't mate for life like some of the birds or mammals, they don't have complicated structure of the herd like rats etc.
And SSSSnakes is right, dogs, cats, horses, rats or some birds (and a lot of other animals) will make a bond with their keeper, and if turned loose they will come back. Snakes will just go ahead and quickly disappear.

[FWK]

MDT - Good luck with that LOL.

eminart - Very well said.

DDW - You are suffering from something called confirmation bias. You should get that looked at.

OP - Try the experiment SSSSnakes proposes. Make note of exactly when and where the animals were released and how long it took them to get home. Perhaps MDT will get what he is looking for :rolleyes:

[Aaron_S]

I'm watching this thread closely!

[DDW]

DDW - You are suffering from something called confirmation bias. You should get that looked at.

I was very tired when I read this and I should know better than to go to the first person that claims some thing. Now, I realize I was being a bit idiotic. Oops*facepalms* ...anyway, I do think they can become gentle but I won't be risking my life just because I think any animal loves me (I realize it's not love when it comes to snakes)

Ps. What about lizzards, same concept?

[MDT]

MDT - Good luck with that LOL.

Perhaps MDT will get what he is looking for :rolleyes:

dude..you do know i was being facetious, right? have you not seen the other thread on this topic?

i have argued to the contrary of this sentiment on this forum until i'm blue in the face. i'm in complete agreement w jerry and eminart on this one...

[EL Ziggy]

Take your snakes outside and turn them loose. If they love you they will return.

^^My sentiments exactly.^^

[sophiedufort]

Hey, guys, are you actually snake owners, or did you join this forum just for fun? You are acting as if snakes are worthless, brainless, heartless pets. If they are, why do you own them? Just for the thrill of it? Personally, I have snakes because I think they are wonderful animals, and I love seeing them behave a lot more decently than any other pet. And I do have heaps of other pets: ferrets, sugar gliders, chameleons and a dog.
I understand, of course, that opinions are divided on this topic, but I will forever argue that those who think that snakes cannot be affectionate are dead wrong. In most cases, the denial seems to come from people's inability to recognize the signs.
Someone said, in reply to this thread: "The very word "love" is a human construct used to explain biological adaptations that promote the spread of our genes." It is, in my view, the most cynical definition of 'love' that I ever read. We do no longer live in the ice age, for God's sake. But that's another topic, for another forum.
A dog wags his tail, barks, jumps of joy, licks your hand and does a million other things to express his love for you. A cat rubs against you. Sugar gliders bond for life. Ferrets love their play time more than they will ever care to display love, but they still do love their owner. Snakes don't have four paws, a tail to wag, and a voice to make loving sounds. They display their affection in a way that most people are unable to recognize and acknowledge, just because it is so different.
Of course, snakes will not come back if set loose. They are built that way. But that doesn't go against the fact that they are affectionate. You, guys, seem to think that affection is a pre-defined set of exhibited behaviors, and that, in order to qualify, all pre-requisites must be met. That's so wrong. Is like saying that your dog doesn't love you, because he doesn't wag his tail; instead, he only rests his head on your knee and licks your hand, but since not all conditions were met, that's not love.
I don't pretend to know snakes that well. But I do FEEL their love, and that says it all. In return, I treat them with the utmost care and affection and I make sure that they can feel it too. That's what makes a snake-human relationship worthwhile. If you own a snake just for the novelty or thrill of it, then you will never be able to understand what I mean.

[FWK]

Nobody has mentioned venomous yet Aaron, go whine elsewhere.

....

I just said venomous didn't I?

All good DDW. And yes, the same concept applies to lizards.

Yes, MDT, I understood you. You and I are in complete agreement on this and many other issues that arise on this forum. I often find myself nodding along as I read your posts.

Just to be clear, the suggestion to release the animals is purely sarcastic. To do so would be not only irresponsible but illegal.

[bigsnakegirl785]

I love my snakes quite a bit, and would be absolutely devastated if they disappeared, and they certainly are not a display animal for me. I believe they can come to trust certain people, people who they've been with for awhile and that have not harmed them. But they are not capable of love. None of my snakes care a single bit for me from what I can tell, they're just as quick to go running off as they are to climb on me. They do things that could be misconstrued as affection, such as reaching up and flicking their tongue on my nose as if to say "hello," but more likely it's just them sniffing your nose because hot smelly breath is coming out of it. None of my snakes come to me unless I am the only thing they can hide under. The garters will come out to the front of their tanks to come see what's going on, but it's not them being like a dog and coming wanting attention, it's merely them being interested in movement. Snakes don't want attention, they merely put up with it.

That said, as long as your animals are well taken care of, and not the reptile equivalent of dressing a dog up and treating it as a human baby, then how you view it isn't harming anyone and you can believe as you wish. Maybe one day we'll learn they actually are capable of some form of affection, I'm sure many members on this forum would like that to be true. But from the scientific studies we have currently, they physically just don't have the structures for complex emotions let alone love or affection.

[Minkness]

DDW- Lizards, turtles, snakes, and any other form of reptile or amphibian I am leaving out, all share that lack of the warm fuzzies. This does not mean that you cannot earn the trust and respect of said animal however. It's just not 'love' in the basic sense of the word.

Example....you have a coworker who you HAAAATE for whatever reason, but, let's say that they are a good worker. Do you trust they will be there? Do you respect that their work ethic? On the other side...let's say it's a friend that you genuinely love...but you have coke to expect them to be unreliable and a bit of a ditz. Can you trust they will be there for you? Do you respect their judgements? Love, trust, and respect do not always go hand in hand.

Now, I have 3 different snakes with crazy different personalities. One of which is my western hognose who will actually come out of his hide and 'greet' me when I enter the room, and will show that 'separation anxiety' if I put him back in his enclosure. I feel he is just curious and may want more time out and about, but has little to do with 'me'...even if it makes me smile every time it happens lol.
As a side comment...please don't release any snake into the wild as an experiment if it will come back or not...I'm sure ssssnakes was being cheeky...so please do not take that suggestion seriously. Just...don't....

[eminart]

Hey, guys, are you actually snake owners, or did you join this forum just for fun? You are acting as if snakes are worthless, brainless, heartless pets. If they are, why do you own them? Just for the thrill of it? Personally, I have snakes because I think they are wonderful animals, and I love seeing them behave a lot more decently than any other pet. And I do have heaps of other pets: ferrets, sugar gliders, chameleons and a dog.
I understand, of course, that opinions are divided on this topic, but I will forever argue that those who think that snakes cannot be affectionate are dead wrong. In most cases, the denial seems to come from people's inability to recognize the signs.
Someone said, in reply to this thread: "The very word "love" is a human construct used to explain biological adaptations that promote the spread of our genes." It is, in my view, the most cynical definition of 'love' that I ever read. We do no longer live in the ice age, for God's sake. But that's another topic, for another forum.
A dog wags his tail, barks, jumps of joy, licks your hand and does a million other things to express his love for you. A cat rubs against you. Sugar gliders bond for life. Ferrets love their play time more than they will ever care to display love, but they still do love their owner. Snakes don't have four paws, a tail to wag, and a voice to make loving sounds. They display their affection in a way that most people are unable to recognize and acknowledge, just because it is so different.
Of course, snakes will not come back if set loose. They are built that way. But that doesn't go against the fact that they are affectionate. You, guys, seem to think that affection is a pre-defined set of exhibited behaviors, and that, in order to qualify, all pre-requisites must be met. That's so wrong. Is like saying that your dog doesn't love you, because he doesn't wag his tail; instead, he only rests his head on your knee and licks your hand, but since not all conditions were met, that's not love.
I don't pretend to know snakes that well. But I do FEEL their love, and that says it all. In return, I treat them with the utmost care and affection and I make sure that they can feel it too. That's what makes a snake-human relationship worthwhile. If you own a snake just for the novelty or thrill of it, then you will never be able to understand what I mean.

You're assuming that in order for an animal to be worthy of our admiration and "love" that it must have human attributes and emotions. What if we love reptiles for what they really are?

I'm not going to argue with the rest of your comment, but, in my opinion, it's a very irrational and unscientific view of nature. What you "feel" and what is true and scientifically documented, may be two very different things.

[Minkness]

You're assuming that in order for an animal to be worthy of our admiration and "love" that it must have human attributes and emotions. What if we love reptiles for what they really are?

I'm not going to argue with the rest of your comment, but, in my opinion, it's a very irrational and unscientific view of nature. What you "feel" and what is true and scientifically documented, may be two very different things.

So well said!!!

One of the main reasons I love all my reptiles is their undemanding, ease of care, and I don't have to worry about their feelings so long as I am taking proper care, which is so different compared to my mammals. I personally handle all my reptiles, but I also know that if I don't have the time or I'm mega tired, I don't have to worry about them.

[Aaron_S]

Hey, guys, are you actually snake owners, or did you join this forum just for fun? You are acting as if snakes are worthless, brainless, heartless pets. If they are, why do you own them? Just for the thrill of it? Personally, I have snakes because I think they are wonderful animals, and I love seeing them behave a lot more decently than any other pet. And I do have heaps of other pets: ferrets, sugar gliders, chameleons and a dog.
I understand, of course, that opinions are divided on this topic, but I will forever argue that those who think that snakes cannot be affectionate are dead wrong. In most cases, the denial seems to come from people's inability to recognize the signs.
Someone said, in reply to this thread: "The very word "love" is a human construct used to explain biological adaptations that promote the spread of our genes." It is, in my view, the most cynical definition of 'love' that I ever read. We do no longer live in the ice age, for God's sake. But that's another topic, for another forum.
A dog wags his tail, barks, jumps of joy, licks your hand and does a million other things to express his love for you. A cat rubs against you. Sugar gliders bond for life. Ferrets love their play time more than they will ever care to display love, but they still do love their owner. Snakes don't have four paws, a tail to wag, and a voice to make loving sounds. They display their affection in a way that most people are unable to recognize and acknowledge, just because it is so different.
Of course, snakes will not come back if set loose. They are built that way. But that doesn't go against the fact that they are affectionate. You, guys, seem to think that affection is a pre-defined set of exhibited behaviors, and that, in order to qualify, all pre-requisites must be met. That's so wrong. Is like saying that your dog doesn't love you, because he doesn't wag his tail; instead, he only rests his head on your knee and licks your hand, but since not all conditions were met, that's not love.
I don't pretend to know snakes that well. But I do FEEL their love, and that says it all. In return, I treat them with the utmost care and affection and I make sure that they can feel it too. That's what makes a snake-human relationship worthwhile. If you own a snake just for the novelty or thrill of it, then you will never be able to understand what I mean.

1. Please don't assume that because people differ from your opinion that they somehow "love" their animals less or care for them improperly.

2. Why did you come here and make this post if you're so adament about your views? Are you open to changing them or discussing them in a way that they may change? If not then seriously, why? To get a rise out of my forum?

Nobody has mentioned venomous yet Aaron, go whine elsewhere.

....

I just said venomous didn't I?

All good DDW. And yes, the same concept applies to lizards.

Yes, MDT, I understood you. You and I are in complete agreement on this and many other issues that arise on this forum. I often find myself nodding along as I read your posts.

Just to be clear, the suggestion to release the animals is purely sarcastic. To do so would be not only irresponsible but illegal.

Huh? What am I whining about? I mentioned that I am watching this thread closely so everyone reading and participating know a moderator is already watching this as it can turn into something that we don't necessarly want on the forum any longer. If you have issue with this please let me know in a private message.

I will be quick to end heated discussion that has nothing to do with debate.

If you have an issue with me on a personal level you can private message me.

[sophiedufort]

None of my snakes care a single bit for me from what I can tell, they're just as quick to go running off as they are to climb on me.


My snakes actually seek me. Not all of them, though. The Brazilian rainbow boas are very independent. They are very content when I hold them, but they will rarely come to me. But the pythons and the other two boas are different. Missy, my Dumeril's boa, will spend hours around my husband's neck, and she pokes him with her nose if he stops rubbing her back. Dante, our het ghost Colombian red tail boa, is behaving like a spoiled brat when we put him back in the enclosure. He becomes crazily anxious and desperately tries to climb back up. He actively seeks my husband's touch, opting to stretch at his side and fall asleep there, even though there are many other enticing hiding spots around. As a matter of fact, we always leave a backpack nearby, as the snakes love it, but more often than not they will come to us instead of hiding in or under the backpack. Every now and then, one of them will choose the backpack, but it's rare. We also have two ball pythons, a normal and an albino. Zoey, the standard ball python, has been around the longest. She is crazy jealous of the other snakes, and attempts to intimidate them when they try to come close to 'mommy' or 'daddy'. Mojo, the albino, is still very shy, but getting closer to us every day.
All our snakes have different personalities. My husband and I spend a lot of time with them, rub them and even kiss them. All of them, without exception, enjoy the kissing on the side of their head. If I stop kissing them, they turn their head and look inquisitively, then move to my lips, pressing against them. This is so funny.
Call it what you want: being docile, submissive, calm and trusting, I call it affection.

[lady_bug87]

hahaha I skimmed this thread for 2 seconds and saw the words snake parents, separation anxiety, and all kinds of other malarkey. I take very good care of my snakes and half of them would love nothing more to bite me multiple times.

Tolerance isn't love people.

1. Please don't assume that because people differ from your opinion that they somehow "love" their animals less or care for them improperly.

2. Why did you come here and make this post if you're so adament about your views? Are you open to changing them or discussing them in a way that they may change? If not then seriously, why? To get a rise out of my forum?



Huh? What am I whining about? I mentioned that I am watching this thread closely so everyone reading and participating know a moderator is already watching this as it can turn into something that we don't necessarly want on the forum any longer. If you have issue with this please let me know in a private message.

I will be quick to end heated discussion that has nothing to do with debate.

If you have an issue with me on a personal level you can private message me.

Party pooper.

[DDW]

Minkness and FWK: I understand, I just had to think it through(rather than impulse posting) there is a difference between "love" and just merely recognizing or relying on someone/something. Trust is a part of love but love is not a part of trustXD.

[sophiedufort]

1. Please don't assume that because people differ from your opinion that they somehow "love" their animals less or care for them improperly.

2. Why did you come here and make this post if you're so adament about your views? Are you open to changing them or discussing them in a way that they may change? If not then seriously, why? To get a rise out of my forum?



With respect, I don't make assumptions. I just wonder how some people speak of these animals, with such detachment and (almost) disdain. As for your second question, I didn't come here to get a rise out of the forum. I just posted something else before, asking about loss of scales, and one of the replies that I received also brushed on snake affection, which prompted me to try to find out how other snake owners perceive their pets' behavior. I am surprised to see that so many have snakes, but they claim there's no affection. The very few who agree with me are being kind of laughed at, I noticed. I have no intention to provoke anyone; I just feel that this is a poorly explored, misunderstood subject. And what best place to discuss it, if not a snake forum? Pleasant or not, it is an interesting topic, and I am glad to read people's opinions, whether I agree with them or not.

[MDT]

Yes, MDT, I understood you. You and I are in complete agreement on this and many other issues that arise on this forum. I often find myself nodding along as I read your posts.

Oh..sorry FWK....sometimes i lose the intent on the intrawebz :D

We're good!

[MDT]

Sophie....google Limbic System. Reptiles don't have one. Emotions happen here.

I really do like my snakes....they in turn, have no regard for me.
I love my family.....they in turn (at least they say), love me back.

I'm totally cool w this.

[lady_bug87]

They are currently exploring the reptile brain and are finding that it's less primative than they thought. However under no circumstances does that equal affection.

They aren't social animals. There is no need for them to be. Arguably having most of the captive reptiles in private collection being CBB its understandable that through the generations they become more tolerant to people. That's just genetics. That's domestication. Not love.

[RAD House]

Words like love and affection are words made up by humans to describe chemical processes in our brains. These processes on the other hand are very real in all cases. Cynical maybe but true nonetheless. To say snakes don't feel love to me seems untrue as they also experience these same chemical processes to a certain degree. On a purely human point of existence I think that we can all agree snakes can learn to trust their owners. From my experience trust is a huge part of love. Secondly I also think snakes do realize that certain people are there to care for them over other people. This is not entirely different than the love a young child has for a parent. I mean this in the sense that the child is a completely selfish being that depends on the parent for care. Saying snakes do not love is just as anthropomorphizing as saying the do as the word is entirely a human construct.

[lady_bug87]

Are you comparing your snakes to my children?

[eminart]

Saying snakes do not love is just as anthropomorphizing as saying the do as the word is entirely a human construct.


No, it isn't, because we DID construct the word, and it exists to describe a set of emotions and actions that snakes do not possess.

[lady_bug87]

No, it isn't, because we DID construct the word, and it exists to describe a set of emotions and actions that snakes do not possess.

This is exactly it.

[MDT]

I think that we can all agree snakes can learn to trust their owners.

Um, no we can't....because acclimation isn't trust. And, some just don't acclimate at all.

[EL Ziggy]

I love my snakes but I don't believe they love me back and that's ok. I'm just the source of their food, water, shelter and warmth. Because I provide these things we have established a bond of tolerance and trust. I love their beauty and mystique and try to give them the best possible care but I know if it were up to them they would have nothing to do with me and I'm ok with that too :).

[eminart]

And to the original poster, it's great that you love snakes. If the worst thing about you is that you think they love you back, I think you're OK.

Personally, I'm fine with the fact that the majority of my pets would eat me if I were small enough. I still love keeping them.

[millertime89]

I'm watching this thread closely!

Same here...

[reptiledude987]

Same here...
So am I and laughing my a$$ off the whole way through.

I think one of the most relevant posts on the thread was in refrence to the old addage "if you love it set it free. If it comes back then it loves you too." Which is not at all advisable but would prove the point.

I'm quite sure you wouldnt be willing to put this to the test because 99.9% of the time you would never see the animal again.

Further to the point there are animals that rear their young and mate for life ie. penguins. snakes do neither of these things which in its self should tell you right there the emotional attachment theyre capable of.

If they dont have an emotional connection with their offspring how would they have an emotional connection with you. If someone paid my rent Id appriceate it but wouldnt grieve their loss tha same way I would if I lost one of my children.

[RAD House]

I don't think there is any question that was exactly what I was doing lady bug.

Eminart words like emotions and love can not be applied directly to snakes in any way because they are made to describe the way we interpret our own brain chemistry. A snake can experience the same brain chemistry as us but can it interpret that as love or not love? The answer is no and so saying a snake feels or doesn't feel love is giving it human characteristics as only we understand what love is. What we can do is study the chemistry that occurs in the brain and what that means to humans. To be fair given the right conditions any pet would eat you, maybe even your own children.

MDT by definition acclimation is getting used to a new environment and trust is expecting the same results. Acclimation does not apply to what I was talking about.

[reptiledude987]

If you want to see some true love from your snake try this. Next feeding day rub a food item on your hand and put in front of your snake. First you will get some tongue action then a big open mouth kiss and a big hug!

[RAD House]

As they say love bites. So your point is that nothing that loves you will ever leave or hurt you. You must lead quite the charmed life.

[reptiledude987]

As they say love bites. So your point is that nothing that loves you will ever leave or hurt you. You must lead quite the charmed life.
well if I stick my hand in my dogs bag of food she dosent try to eat my hand. It will be licked alot but cetainly not chewed on.
As well I can walk my dog off leash and she dosent leave my side. She wants to go after every squirrel she sees but if not given the ok she dosent.

[MDT]

MDT by definition acclimation is getting used to a new environment and trust is expecting the same results. Acclimation does not apply to what I was talking about.

Ok...I'll restate. Your snake neither knows you or trusts you. Mine do not "know" me or "trust" me.

My retics could give a rat's behind who or what i am....when I open the enclosure, it's game time. Unless I break that response by tapping with a snake stick, paper towel roll, etc, if I put my hand in the enclosure, I will get bitten. Every. Single. Time.

Once I break that response, I can manipulate them out of the cage, but I will not let my guard down. I know what they are capable of.

That is their genetically imprinted behavior. That is what a retic "is". That is what I love about these amazingly beautiful animals. But there is no reciprocity on their part.

[RAD House]

Maybe he just doesn't like you. There is a noticeable difference in the flight response between when I hold the snakes compared to my lady due to the fact that I handle them more often. This only speculation but I believe this means they trust that I will not harm them more so than my gentler half.

[RAD House]

Obliviously some snakes will never be comfortable but we are asking what a snake is capable of. By the way just joshing about the hate thing.

For the record I have been bitten by my dog way worse than any of my snakes could muster. It was accidental. Have you never seen a dog with food aggression?

[prairiepanda]

I'm surprised nobody else has commented on this yet:

Snakes are not display pets. If someone bought them for that purpose, then the poor snakes have fallen in the wrong hands.

Erm, why is having a snake as a display pet bad exactly? Snakes are solitary animals in the wild, so social interaction isn't a need that must be provided in captivity. Snakes kept purely for display are often kept in the most naturalistic and spacious enclosures, too, so I don't see how this could be a bad thing. It would be different if someone had, say, a rat. Rats are very social animals and can develop serious illnesses and harmful behavioral issues if they do not receive socialization, which is why it's often recommended for people to buy multiple rats or else take their single rat out frequently for attention and play/snuggle time. But for an animal like a snake that would normally live a solitary life, it won't be any worse for wear if it never leaves its enclosure. Assuming, of course, that the enclosure provides a suitable environment and sufficient space for the species.

As for love and affection... well, my snakes trust me and recognize me, and they have different opinions about different people, and yes some of them approach me of their own accord and snuggle with me for warmth or demand rubs from me...but snakes don't have a limbic system. Someone keeps saying they "experience the same chemical reactions we do" but that isn't true(at least not to the extent suggested) because their physiology is completely different. I do feel that we are limited in our knowledge of a snake's thought process because of practical barriers in research, so I wouldn't say anything is certain here. Perhaps some species do possess some degree of affection(apparently some rattlesnakes care for their young and bring them food), but this appears to be quite rare, and I certainly would not expect that affection to extend to other species.

My snakes have some sort of bond with me; they know me and seek me out specifically, but that doesn't mean they actually care about me. They know I'm trustworthy and can provide them with warmth and rubs. But if I were passed out in a burning building, my snakes(if they were roaming free) would certainly abandon me and flee for their lives without a thought. My cat, despite being physically unable to rescue me, would likely rather die trying to wake me than to escape and live on without me. When I was living in dorms and had to leave my pets behind, my cat became depressed, fat, antisocial, and stopped cleaning herself to the point where matted fur was causing her physical pain, but she was back to normal within 2 weeks of moving to my new apartment with me. Meanwhile the snake that had been left behind along with her was perfectly healthy the whole time. How can that be called love?

[MDT]

sooooo............looking at the reptilian brain.....inspecting the structures that are actually present, and noting the structures that are absent from said brain....noting that there is absence of certain structures that are responsible for formation of emotional thought patterns....and given all of this demonstrable data...oh well....
http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh572/mtucker66/BnQcdY3CUAAZ4-q_zps48bj07hg.jpg (http://s1252.photobucket.com/user/mtucker66/media/BnQcdY3CUAAZ4-q_zps48bj07hg.jpg.html)

[stevowns]

Biologically, why would a snake exhibit "love"? They aren't social animals. The very word "love" is a human construct used to explain biological adaptations that promote the spread of our genes. Other social animals exhibit some of the same "love" behaviors as humans. Reptiles, insects, etc. not so much.

I think you're anthropromorhizing the actions of your snake - actions that can be explained in ways that make more sense for a snake's natural behavior. The human brain looks for patterns. It often finds patterns where there really are none, or misinterprets animal behavior by applying human logic.

100% agreed.


It's not that we don't believe that the actions of our snakes can be 'affectionate', it's more of having the respect for an animal that biologically isn't capable of having emotions. Snakes lack both the limbic and neocortex parts of the brain that we have. They PHYSICALLY aren't capable of having these affectionate emotions that we as SOCIAL animals have (That's one of the reasons why we as humans would for the most part go insane if isolated for long periods of time while most reptiles are perfectly fine living in solitude their whole lives).


I believe the OP had mentioned that her snake would get jealous, well, snakes aren't capable of that either. I think its narrow minded to force these human-centric attributes such as love, affection and jealousy onto animals that basically can't feel any of those things. Rather, I believe most people have an admiration for their ability to 'tolerate' us in that we provide them the best husbandry as we can, which in turn will keep their stress levels down and live a content and satisfied life.

[millertime89]

http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh572/mtucker66/BnQcdY3CUAAZ4-q_zps48bj07hg.jpg (http://s1252.photobucket.com/user/mtucker66/media/BnQcdY3CUAAZ4-q_zps48bj07hg.jpg.html)

I got a good laugh out of this but please play nicely.

[elkied243]

I would love to think that my snakes loved me back but I know unfortunately that they don't. Apollo can't stand me half the time and would rather be left to wander alone (I don't let him), and while Bubbles enjoys my sleeves he too enjoys his freedom. I believe my snakes have personalities and that they do to an extent appreciate the fact that I feed them but I don't believe it is affection they feel. Snakes don't even like to be around each other 90% of the time...why would they feel any differently around us?

[lady_bug87]

sooooo............looking at the reptilian brain.....inspecting the structures that are actually present, and noting the structures that are absent from said brain....noting that there is absence of certain structures that are responsible for formation of emotional thought patterns....and given all of this demonstrable data...oh well....
http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh572/mtucker66/BnQcdY3CUAAZ4-q_zps48bj07hg.jpg (http://s1252.photobucket.com/user/mtucker66/media/BnQcdY3CUAAZ4-q_zps48bj07hg.jpg.html)


I. Love. This. So. Much

[RAD House]

"snakes don't have a limbic system. Someone keeps saying they "experience the same chemical reactions we do" but that isn't true(at least not to the extent suggested) because their physiology is completely different."


I am sorry but this statement is entirely untrue according to modern science. I think you are referring to the triune theory that has been proven entirely false. This theory lead people to believe that the basal ganglia was known as the reptilian brain because according to this theory this is the only part of the brain reptiles possess. This is a false statement. It is now known that brain structure and chemistry is identical in all vertebrates from the lamprey to humans. The only thing that differs is the size and functionality of each part of the brain. This is the same theory that led to the term "bird brained" when in fact several species of birds are more intelligent than most mammals. cough cough "your cat" cough cough. I do agree with you about the op's display animal statement, it was a bit outlandish.

MDT I am sorry if this discussion has offended you in some way. I find it quite interesting, but you are probably right I am a nerd.

[MDT]

Not offended at all...I am quite nerdish as well.... :)

This is the beauty of dialogue (with some decent ribbing thrown in for good measure)...we learn form each other.

If you have reference to legit peer reviewed studies, please post 'em up....I would love to see them and I'm not above revising my sentiments if the science is legit. That's what science is all about. However, to my knowledge, I have not seen any studies that would suggest that reptiles love each other, let alone me :)

BTW...my cat doesn't fly into windows. Just sayin' :D

[reptiledude987]

BTW...my cat doesn't fly into windows. Just sayin' :D
LMFAO. So true.

[sophiedufort]

My retics could give a rat's behind who or what i am....when I open the enclosure, it's game time. Unless I break that response by tapping with a snake stick, paper towel roll, etc, if I put my hand in the enclosure, I will get bitten. Every. Single. Time.


I had ten snakes so far, not counting two that I found in the garden and kept for a couple of days before releasing them. I have never, ever been bitten. Not once. I reach inside my snakes' enclosures a hundred times a day, and they are never hostile. Then again, I hold them for hours on end, and pet them just as much, and so does my husband. The only snake that sometimes seems to be on the edge is my smallest Brazilian rainbow boa. She is ready to strike when I reach into the feeding tub to pick her up after she ate, but as soon as she can smell me she ceases her display of aggression and lets me grab her.

[MDT]

A hundred times a day? Literally? And you hold them for hours.....so you take an ectothermic animal from a controlled environment and subject them to room temperature for hours... and they don't act froggy? I guess if I was an ectotherm and you cooled me off like that, I'd probably be a little "docile" too ;)

btw, I've had hundreds (ok..well..over 150) of snakes since 1976....my "n" is greater than your "n"....

[RAD House]

My point to this whole thing is that love is entirely a human construct and has many facets. Also that there are more similarities to snakes and humans than most know, this disparity is due to the fact that we must place ourselves above every other species. If someone wants to use these similarities to think that their beloved pets love them back, I see no issue with that. As far as I know there is not all that much is known about reptile brain function compared to mammals. Birds used to be in this same boat but recent studies have shown that we were entirely misguided in our prior ideas about them. I know you were joking but birds flying into windows has more to do with the way they see than brain function.

[sophiedufort]

"I do agree with you about the op's display animal statement, it was a bit outlandish.


I see that a few people felt attacked by my statement relating to 'display pets', and I apologize if my comments seemed to be offending. That was not my intention. What I was actually trying to say, is that some people get reptiles just for the thrill of it, stick them in an enclosure and don't really care, nor try to understand the needs of their pets. I think that a snake owner, just like every pet owner, in general, should get fully involved in the care of their pet, respect and love that pet, not use it as a thrill factor. I referred to 'display pets' in the first place because I felt that some members' comments about snakes were too blunt and unfair.

[SSSSnakes]

I had ten snakes so far, not counting two that I found in the garden and kept for a couple of days before releasing them. I have never, ever been bitten. Not once. I reach inside my snakes' enclosures a hundred times a day, and they are never hostile. Then again, I hold them for hours on end, and pet them just as much, and so does my husband. The only snake that sometimes seems to be on the edge is my smallest Brazilian rainbow boa. She is ready to strike when I reach into the feeding tub to pick her up after she ate, but as soon as she can smell me she ceases her display of aggression and lets me grab her.

To keep a snake from biting you, all you have to do is not cause the snake to fear you and see you as a threat. This does not mean the snake Loves you. I can handle supper aggressive snakes and not get bit, because I handle them slow and confidently and they do not fear me. Another person handles the same snakes quickly and carelessly and they get bit. It's not Love, it's the snake not feeling threatened that keeps you from being bit. I handle my snakes as little as possible and they do not bite me when I have to handle them. It's not making them fear you that keeps you from getting bit. This come from 35 years of experience and keeping up to 200 snakes at a time and having kept thousands of different snakes over that time period.

[eminart]

Birds used to be in this same boat but recent studies have shown that we were entirely misguided in our prior ideas about them. I know you were joking but birds flying into windows has more to do with the way they see than brain function.


As a falconer, I can also confirm that hawks don't love us any more than snakes do. Nor are they geniuses.

[SSSSnakes]

I had ten snakes so far, not counting two that I found in the garden and kept for a couple of days before releasing them. I have never, ever been bitten. Not once. I reach inside my snakes' enclosures a hundred times a day, and they are never hostile. Then again, I hold them for hours on end, and pet them just as much, and so does my husband. The only snake that sometimes seems to be on the edge is my smallest Brazilian rainbow boa. She is ready to strike when I reach into the feeding tub to pick her up after she ate, but as soon as she can smell me she ceases her display of aggression and lets me grab her.

If you truly love your snakes you would stop doing something that causes them stress, like taking them out and holding them a hundred times a day.

[SnoopySnake]

Sigh, another one of these threads....

[MDT]

Sigh, another one of these threads....

I know!!! It's awesome!!!!

[MDT]

As a falconer, I can also confirm that hawks don't love us any more than snakes do. Nor are they geniuses.

This made me Lolz :)

[SSSSnakes]

Sigh, another one of these threads....

Have to give the new Mods something to do, it's been boring around here lately. LOL

[RAD House]

Eminart corvids are generally accepted as the most intelligent bird group, but raptors are no dunces. Harris's Hawks are known to hunt in coordinated groups. Egyptian vultures use twigs to rake up wool for their nests. I am curious what you base your allocation of intelligence off of?
Ugghh another one of those comments. If you don't find this interesting why comment at all. I feel as passionate as the participants seem to be, it has been kept fairly civil. Why discourage friendly discourse?

[Nuxodom]

btw, I've had hundreds (ok..well..over 150) of snakes since 1976....my "n" is greater than your "n"....[/QUOTE]

I've had snakes for 40 years, since 1975. Well over 300 snakes. I knew Bill Haast personally (you may have heard of the Miami Serpentarium where he supplied snake venom for medical use, and has been bitten by poisonous snakes nearly 200 times). How big is your "n"? :-)

Now, as far as the topic about snakes and affection (for everyone else).

I've had snakes that showed fear, content, rage, happiness and - yes - affection. They certainly have emotions. I see affection daily from them, if you know what you are looking for. It's not a "human affection" or "love," they have their own ways.

I've seen countless studies on this; some say they are not capable of "affection," others say they most certainly are. Take your pick, but I go with what I have experienced in four decades of snake handling. It's not disputable what I have seen and do see.

It's quite clear - at least in my snakes - what they like and dislike. This is emotion. They are comfortable with some people and not so much with others too.

All my snakes have had unique personalities...no two are exactly the same. This includes showing "affection." Some may say they seek heat, hence it seems like affection. While this is true, I've certainly handled snakes in hot weather, where heat was not exactly desired. Yet, they still acted the same as they did in a cold house.

Some of my snakes seek me out on my bed nearly every time, to fall asleep by me, even when my wife is on the bed too.

I think it's all down to opinion, and arguing the point is moot. I'm quite sure my snakes show affection along with other emotions; that's my opinion.

[mistersprinkles]

Biologically, why would a snake exhibit "love"? They aren't social animals. The very word "love" is a human construct used to explain biological adaptations that promote the spread of our genes. Other social animals exhibit some of the same "love" behaviors as humans. Reptiles, insects, etc. not so much.

I think you're anthropromorhizing the actions of your snake - actions that can be explained in ways that make more sense for a snake's natural behavior. The human brain looks for patterns. It often finds patterns where there really are none, or misinterprets animal behavior by applying human logic.

I agree with you 100%.

The reptilian brain is a very simple computer. I don't believe, at all, that it is capable of "higher emotions". I've had snakes since I was 5. I'm in my early 30s now. I have had very docile snakes but I never once felt like my snake was loving, self aware, or even capable of moderately complex thought, for that matter.

Snakes have "modes", as Steve Irwin used to say. Resting mode, mating mode, hunting mode, eating mode, exploring mode. That's it. It's like a Commodore 64 with scales.

[sophiedufort]

I must say that I am puzzled that most members seem to define 'love' based on human emotion. I never stated in this thread that I believe my snakes' affection to be comparable to that of humans. I simply said that they display affection in their own way, different from other species, and that many people fail to recognize those signs of affection simply because it is not similar to what we perceive to be affectionate behavior.
Snakes are not faithful creatures, I agree. They will not stick around if placed in a dangerous situation, they will not come back if left outdoors, they do not bond for life and so on. But who said that these are prerequisites to 'affection'?
I believe that most members will agree with me that snakes can grow to trust their owner and to differentiate between their handler and strangers. Trusting means to rely upon or place confidence in someone or something. Achieving such reliance is bound to be the result of repeated interaction. Snakes can easily reject that interaction by becoming aggressive. But when they choose not to, it means that they feel comfortable. Comfortable, not tolerant. Comfortable = contented and undisturbed, a state that, in snakes in particular, is logically associated with their acceptance of their handler. Acceptance = approval. Approval is manifested via 'licking', 'hugging', 'cuddling' and so on. All these manifestations are the result of feelings, emotions, the complexity of which, or the lack thereof, is irrelevant. I don't agree that a snake cannot be said to display affection just because that display is too primitive and not comparable to our own definition of love.

[KyleKennedy]

Snakes don't love you, they tolerate you. They are not affectionate by nature. Just because they seem docile, doesn't mean they care about you.

[Nuxodom]

I've had snakes for 40 years, been here one day :-)

I've had snakes that showed fear, content, rage, happiness and - yes - affection. They certainly have emotions. I see affection daily from them, if you know what you are looking for. It's not a "human affection" or "love," they have their own ways.

I've seen countless studies on this; some say they are not capable of "affection," others say they most certainly are. Take your pick, but I go with what I have experienced in four decades of snake handling. It's not disputable what I *have* seen and *do* see.

It's quite clear - at least in my snakes - what they like and dislike. This is emotion. They are comfortable with some people and not so much with others. One enjoys the hollow mountain while another prefers the half-log. Another wants to soak in the water while the others don't. Preferences. Emotions.

All my snakes have had unique personalities...no two are exactly the same. This includes showing "affection." Some may say they seek heat, hence it seems like affection. While this is true, I've certainly handled snakes in hot weather, where heat was not exactly desired. Yet, they still acted the same as they did in a cold house.

Some of my snakes seek me out on my bed nearly every time, to fall asleep by me, even when my wife is on the bed too or there are plenty of other things to cozy up to.

I think it's all down to opinion, and arguing the point is moot. I'm quite sure my snakes show affection along with other emotions; that's my opinion.

[MDT]

The reptilian brain is a very simple computer. It's like a Commodore 64 with scales.

This is quite possibly the best post of the whole thread😂 and possibly my new sig line!

Being a child of the 70's/80's...I had a Commodore 64...pretty simple indeed!

[millertime89]

Have to give the new Mods something to do, it's been boring around here lately. LOL

Sure has. This thread has given us something to do for a while.

[eminart]

Eminart corvids are generally accepted as the most intelligent bird group, but raptors are no dunces. Harris's Hawks are known to hunt in coordinated groups. Egyptian vultures use twigs to rake up wool for their nests. I am curious what you base your allocation of intelligence off of?
Ugghh another one of those comments. If you don't find this interesting why comment at all. I feel as passionate as the participants seem to be, it has been kept fairly civil. Why discourage friendly discourse?

I'm not sure how I discouraged friendly discourse?

Yes, corvids are certainly recognized as the most intelligent of birds. However, I've been around my fair share of Harris' hawks, and there's nothing particularly striking about their behavior. Yes, they hunt in groups, and seem to exhibit a very low level of problem-solving. But they'll also bind to the rump of a 100lb deer that they have zero chance of taking down, and that could injure or kill them. The "intelligence" they seem to have is centered in very specific areas and could be argued that they're merely acting on evolved instincts and not thinking at all. With the red tails that I commonly fly, they really seem not much different than reptiles. It seems that 90% of their actions are governed by instinct.

But, we're getting off track.

[Aaron_S]

End of the day we're all on the same side. We all love and enjoy our snakes. We show this in our own ways. As long as the snakes are well kept and cared for who cares how it's done or what someone thinks a snake can or cannot feel?

[Aaron_S]

I'm not sure how I discouraged friendly discourse?

Yes, corvids are certainly recognized as the most intelligent of birds. However, I've been around my fair share of Harris' hawks, and there's nothing particularly striking about their behavior. Yes, they hunt in groups, and seem to exhibit a very low level of problem-solving. But they'll also bind to the rump of a 100lb deer that they have zero chance of taking down, and that could injure or kill them. The "intelligence" they seem to have is centered in very specific areas and could be argued that they're merely acting on evolved instincts and not thinking at all. With the red tails that I commonly fly, they really seem not much different than reptiles. It seems that 90% of their actions are governed by instinct.

But, we're getting off track.

I was once told by a falconer that the way to "train them" is solely through their stomach. Otherwise they'll never "perform."

[eminart]

I was once told by a falconer that the way to "train them" is solely through their stomach. Otherwise they'll never "perform."

100% correct.

[RAD House]

Sorry Eminart those last four sentences were not directed at you. I think it is staying on track in the sense that humans, specifically the general public, do not understand animals nearly as well as we think we do. Could it just be that you do not understand their way of thinking because you evolved in a different manner to be successful in different facets of life? I have to admit that I do not see much advantage in attacking an animal so much larger than itself, but captivity is not the most fertile ground for stimulating an animals intelligence.

[RAD House]

Aaron I think you could easily say that for any animal species, including Homo sapiens.

[lady_bug87]

End of the day we're all on the same side. We all love and enjoy our snakes. We show this in our own ways. As long as the snakes are well kept and cared for who cares how it's done or what someone thinks a snake can or cannot feel?

.... who ARE you?

[Aaron_S]

100% correct.

Which brings up the point maybe they are smarter than we give them credit for.

They'd be all like "If we hold out on doing anything these suckers will keep feeding us and we make out like kings!"

[Aaron_S]

.... who ARE you?

I'd like to say Batman but that's not true. :sad:

[millertime89]

Eminart corvids are generally accepted as the most intelligent bird group, but raptors are no dunces. Harris's Hawks are known to hunt in coordinated groups. Egyptian vultures use twigs to rake up wool for their nests. I am curious what you base your allocation of intelligence off of?
Ugghh another one of those comments. If you don't find this interesting why comment at all. I feel as passionate as the participants seem to be, it has been kept fairly civil. Why discourage friendly discourse?

I think the "They're no geniuses" thing is more of a reflection on their behavior sometimes. Even intelligent animals can be pretty derpy and do dumb things from time to time. For example, my friend's doberman, a very intelligent dog that is trained in mountain S&R, can be a total dunce from time to time. She's ran into walls because she misjudged a corner on several occasions, but she knows where the red laser dot comes from and just stares at the person holding it now...

[lady_bug87]

I'd like to say Batman but that's not true. :sad:

You wish you were Batman.

[millertime89]

You wish you were Batman.

I wish I was batman. Imagine the reptile room I could have in a house like that! (and the garage...)

[Aaron_S]

You wish you were Batman.

You wish I was!

No, no you don't.

[Aaron_S]

I wish I was batman. Imagine the reptile room I could have in a house like that! (and the garage...)

Quiet down peanut gallery!

You may be allowed to be Robin. But like the crappy version. Chris O'Donnell version.

[lady_bug87]

All the guys wish they were batman. Dude gets serious tail.

[MDT]

.... who ARE you?

LOLOLOLOLOL!!! Group hug at Aaron's house!

[millertime89]

Quiet down peanut gallery!

You may be allowed to be Robin. But like the crappy version. Chris O'Donnell version.

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/57995788.jpg

Can I choose someone else?

[MDT]

All the guys wish they were batman. Dude gets serious tail.

Tony Stark....now that guy gets tail. Batman? Too much of an introvert.

[lady_bug87]

Haha! Good call Matt!

Hey Jingles put a sauce on.

[Aaron_S]

Haha! Good call Matt!

Hey Jingles put a sauce on.

That's your job!

[lady_bug87]

Tony Stark....now that guy gets tail. Batman? Too much of an introvert.

I Guess...

Tony Stark yum.

[Aaron_S]

Tony Stark....now that guy gets tail. Batman? Too much of an introvert.

Batman? Introvert.

Bruce Wayne? Playboy.

[MDT]

btw, I've had hundreds (ok..well..over 150) of snakes since 1976....my "n" is greater than your "n"....

I've had snakes for 40 years, since 1975. Well over 300 snakes. I knew Bill Haast personally (you may have heard of the Miami Serpentarium where he supplied snake venom for medical use, and has been bitten by poisonous snakes nearly 200 times). How big is your "n"? :-)
[/QUOTE]


Bill had some seriously pissed off snakes, eh? But wait...they all trusted/loved/liked/fawned over him/whatever, right? ;)



I'm just giggin' you Nuxodom...it's all good. Science is science, opinion is opinion. It woulda been cool to talk w Haast, tho.

[MDT]

Batman? Introvert.

Bruce Wayne? Playboy.

Ok...I'll give you that one.

[RAD House]

Which brings up the point maybe they are smarter than we give them credit for.

They'd be all like "If we hold out on doing anything these suckers will keep feeding us and we make out like kings!"

That makes me think of the tale of aliens looking down on us judging who controls the planet, the humans or their pets. Is it the guy begging a bird to do something for him or the bird waiting for the proper compensation.

[Aaron_S]

That makes me think of the tale of aliens looking down on us judging who controls the planet, the humans or their pets. Is it the guy begging a bird to do something for him or the bird waiting for the proper compensation.

We pick up dog poop. Who's really in control here?!

[millertime89]

We pick up dog poop. Who's really in control here?!

The cats...

[RAD House]

The cats...

Ugghhh not in my house, or yard.

[mutsos]

Well I don't know about you guys but as far as I 'm concerned my snakes' stupidity prevents them from love anything. It takes them 15 minutes constricting the dead rat and 15 more to find where the head is located before they start eating. Sometimes it takes them so long that they start swallowing the rat backwards. These idiots can't handle efficintly simple tasks like eating, how can they develop complex emotions like love??

[sophiedufort]

Well I don't know about you guys but as far as I 'm concerned my snakes' stupidity prevents them from love anything. It takes them 15 minutes constricting the dead rat and 15 more to find where the head is located before they start eating. Sometimes it takes them so long that they start swallowing the rat backwards. These idiots can't handle efficintly simple tasks like eating, how can they develop complex emotions like love??

I wonder how you would manage if you were tied down (legs and arms fully bound) and had to swallow an entire squirrel, bones, fur and all. Do you think you could make it in less than 30 minutes (serious thinking time included, trying to figure out where to start from without choking to death)? Oh, and let's add to the challenge a little. Whoever tied you down thinks you're an idiot and didn't bother to serve you a dead squirrel. This one is very lively and truly overexcited, so you'll have to knock it out first. Are your complex emotions going to come to the rescue? Or perhaps you can't have them, since you can't efficiently handle a simple task, such as eating?

[Aaron_S]

I wonder how you would manage if you were tied down (legs and arms fully bound) and had to swallow an entire squirrel, bones, fur and all. Do you think you could make it in less than 30 minutes (serious thinking time included, trying to figure out where to start from without choking to death)? Oh, and let's add to the challenge a little. Whoever tied you down thinks you're an idiot and didn't bother to serve you a dead squirrel. This one is very lively and truly overexcited, so you'll have to knock it out first. Are your complex emotions going to come to the rescue? Or perhaps you can't have them, since you can't efficiently handle a simple task, such as eating?

This thread took a turn to "light hearted" banter.

Then you come along and type this. Each of your subsequent posts since the first is becoming more judgemental and assuming. People who have a different point of view from you have tried to give factual evidence and for the most part have been open minded. You have not been these things even though you say you are.

Since this was one of your first posts here to make this thread I still believe you're here to get a rise out of the forum. Especially considering you don't post in other threads. Trust in me,above everyone, that I know when I see someone trying to get a rise out of a forum.

You're on thin ice.

[lady_bug87]

I wonder how you would manage if you were tied down (legs and arms fully bound) and had to swallow an entire squirrel, bones, fur and all. Do you think you could make it in less than 30 minutes (serious thinking time included, trying to figure out where to start from without choking to death)? Oh, and let's add to the challenge a little. Whoever tied you down thinks you're an idiot and didn't bother to serve you a dead squirrel. This one is very lively and truly overexcited, so you'll have to knock it out first. Are your complex emotions going to come to the rescue? Or perhaps you can't have them, since you can't efficiently handle a simple task, such as eating?

1) snakes don't have their arms and legs bound. Or anything else bound.

2) it's not part of my normal day to eat a squirrel.

3) as talented as I am I cannot unhook my jaw and swallow something whole.

4) I don't sit maniacally offering my animals over excited or even alive food

5) none of this proves they can love

6) a good portion of our population consists of idiots. And I'm talking about people

7) you may actually be a little crazy

[Nuxodom]

This is quite possibly the best post of the whole thread😂 and possibly my new sig line!

Being a child of the 70's/80's...I had a Commodore 64...pretty simple indeed!

I had an Atari 800, but before that a (ugg) Vic 20. :-)

[eminart]

I think we should stick to judging animals and humans on tasks that they actually do. While some of you may not be able to eat a squirrel very quickly (amateurs), I'm fairly certain a snake can't drive a car very well or send an email (although I'm sure their lack of fingers is all that's holding them back).

[Nuxodom]

Bill had some seriously pissed off snakes, eh? But wait...they all trusted/loved/liked/fawned over him/whatever, right? ;)

I'm just giggin' you Nuxodom...it's all good. Science is science, opinion is opinion. It woulda been cool to talk w Haast, tho.

I don't think his snakes liked him too much :). At least the ones he forced to bite the cups covered in a rubber top to get the venom.

Haast was certainly an eccentric one, but a very nice guy...I even named my first boa "Haast."

He died at age 100, I believe in the Tampa, FL area. After a child fell into a croc pit and was killed at the Serpentarium, he kinda lost it and closed down.

[sophiedufort]

This thread took a turn to "light hearted" banter.

Then you come along and type this. Each of your subsequent posts since the first is becoming more judgemental and assuming. People who have a different point of view from you have tried to give factual evidence and for the most part have been open minded. You have not been these things even though you say you are.

Since this was one of your first posts here to make this thread I still believe you're here to get a rise out of the forum. Especially considering you don't post in other threads. Trust in me,above everyone, that I know when I see someone trying to get a rise out of a forum.

You're on thin ice.

Look, Aaron, ban me from the forum if you want to. I am not trying to get any rise, I simply addressed an issue that is dear to me. If you read back, you will see that I commented, selectively, on very few replies, instead of fueling things up as you claim. I just hate it when people speak lowly of snakes, and of any pets for that matter. What they say seems to reflect how they treat their pet.

I understand that you are the moderator, but it seems that you believe you're God or something, and that you can put people in their place as a result. If you have this forum for the sake of showing off your muscles, go ahead and hush me, since you have the power. As far as I am concerned, I am confident that I behaved in a civilized manner, while doing nothing more than maintaining my opinion and expressing my disappointment at some very harsh and unfair views. If this does not match your expectations, go ahead, ban me, I will not regret it, since it would be a waste of my time to continue in the circumstances.

On another note, I cannot see why my failure to post in other threads would make you suspicious. I will post in other threads if, and when, I become interested in other topics. For your reference, this is my second thread, not my first and only.

[sophiedufort]

1) snakes don't have their arms and legs bound. Or anything else bound.

2) it's not part of my normal day to eat a squirrel.

3) as talented as I am I cannot unhook my jaw and swallow something whole.

4) I don't sit maniacally offering my animals over excited or even alive food

5) none of this proves they can love

6) a good portion of our population consists of idiots. And I'm talking about people

7) you may actually be a little crazy

I didn't claim that you're crazy just because I don't like your opinion. This seems to be a forum of narrow-minded people who only show off and make stupid comments. I thought I came to a decent place where people actually care for pets, but I see that most have subscribed because they are bored with life, frustrated, and need to use a stranger as their punching bag. Stay on, good luck with it!

[Nuxodom]

This thread took a turn to "light hearted" banter.

Then you come along and type this. Each of your subsequent posts since the first is becoming more judgemental and assuming. People who have a different point of view from you have tried to give factual evidence and for the most part have been open minded. You have not been these things even though you say you are.

Since this was one of your first posts here to make this thread I still believe you're here to get a rise out of the forum. Especially considering you don't post in other threads. Trust in me,above everyone, that I know when I see someone trying to get a rise out of a forum.

You're on thin ice.

I don't see anything wrong with her voicing her opinion...it doesn't seem bothersome at all. Also, I haven't seen any "factual evidence" at all to debunk her view - she is passionate about what she thinks, yes...but, just here to get a "rise"? I don't think so.

[lady_bug87]

I didn't claim that you're crazy just because I don't like your opinion. This seems to be a forum of narrow-minded people who only show off and make stupid comments. I thought I came to a decent place where people actually care for pets, but I see that most have subscribed because they are bored with life, frustrated, and need to use a stranger as their punching bag. Stay on, good luck with it!

It's not crazy to believe that snakes can love. Its crazy to come up with a scenario where I'm tied up while battling a squirrel.

[lady_bug87]

I don't see anything wrong with her voicing her opinion...it doesn't seem bothersome at all. Also, I haven't seen any "factual evidence" at all to debunk her view - she is passionate about what she thinks, yes...but, just here to get a "rise"? I don't think so.

In the lifespan of forums this argument comes up a lot with one side thinking they can feel and one side thinking that the other side is wrong.

The topic itself is not problematic. Baiting the forum with outlandish scenarios is. It doesn't prove any point except to irritate people.

this isn't a scientific discussion when she's talking about binding people up and feeding them woodland creatures.

[Nuxodom]

It's not crazy to believe that snakes can love. Its crazy to come up with a scenario where I'm tied up while battling a squirrel.

I think it was rather clever and funny.

[lady_bug87]

I think it was rather clever and funny.

The visual could be I guess BUT it doesn't make her argument any stronger.

[eminart]

I just hate it when people speak lowly of snakes, and of any pets for that matter. What they say seems to reflect how they treat their pet.

This is the issue I have with you.

I think it shows more respect for the animal to understand its true nature and love it for what it is. I don't believe having human traits is what makes an animal worthy of my love or admiration.

I can keep a pet, try to understand its behaviors and the evolution that has produced those behaviors and really enjoy that. Human traits are great... for humans. The differences are what makes nature fascinating to me.

So, to me, your stand seems, for lack of a better term, bigoted. Everything must be like you to be loved.

[sophiedufort]

It's not crazy to believe that snakes can love. Its crazy to come up with a scenario where I'm tied up while battling a squirrel.

I really believe it is the only fitting answer to mutsos' comment. His comment about snakes was disparaging and unfair, hence my decision to reply using the squirrel analogy.

[Aaron_S]

I don't see anything wrong with her voicing her opinion...it doesn't seem bothersome at all. Also, I haven't seen any "factual evidence" at all to debunk her view - she is passionate about what she thinks, yes...but, just here to get a "rise"? I don't think so.

The other half of Sophie? You've only posted here yourself.

I've been around a long time.

I have no problem with people voicing their opinion. However, I don't appreciate when they talk down about others opinion in the same breathe asking those who differ to be open to theirs.

[lady_bug87]

I really believe it is the only fitting answer to mutsos' comment. His comment about snakes was disparaging and unfair, hence my decision to reply using the squirrel analogy.

I will say this: My big girl BCI takes forever to eat. She isn't stupid. She does what nature taught her to do long before they became captive. She could take as long as she wants.

Don't confuse my opinion that my snake doesn't care about me for me not caring for her.

But as warranted as you felt your reaction was, it was silly and it made your argument silly.

[jjhill001]

It's not crazy to believe that snakes can love. Its crazy to come up with a scenario where I'm tied up while battling a squirrel.

Next on Animal Planet.

[Nuxodom]

The other half of Sophie? You've only posted here yourself.

I've been around a long time.

I have no problem with people voicing their opinion. However, I don't appreciate when they talk down about others opinion in the same breathe asking those who differ to be open to theirs.

Other half? I wish! Did you see her picture? :)

I've been a lurker here for a long time, never posted.

[sophiedufort]

This is the issue I have with you.

I think it shows more respect for the animal to understand its true nature and love it for what it is. I don't believe having human traits is what makes an animal worthy of my love or admiration.

I can keep a pet, try to understand its behaviors and the evolution that has produced those behaviors and really enjoy that. Human traits are great... for humans. The differences are what makes nature fascinating to me.

So, to me, your stand seems, for lack of a better term, bigoted. Everything must be like you to be loved.

I am at a loss as to why you would think that, and why you misconstrue my comments. I kept saying, all along, that although I think that snakes have feelings and emotions, these are very primitive and in no way comparable to ours. I love my pets for what they are, flaws and shortcomings included. All my comments in this thread emphasized this point.

If I ever reply to someone's comment, it is to show my distress about the fact that some people use disparaging words when it comes to their pets. One of them said, for instance, I quote: "These idiots can't handle efficintly simple tasks like eating". I just cannot comprehend how someone who loves their pets would say something like that. There is a difference when someone says "I agree that my pets are not very smart". It is still loving and it is perfectly acceptable. But when one refers to his pets as 'these idiots', it shows that person's true colors, as much as it raises a warning flag about the way he treats his pets.

I don't consider myself a pet owner. I am a pet parent. I couldn't say anything that is even remotely negative about my pets, let alone make nasty comments.

[eminart]

I am at a loss as to why you would think that,

Because you've stated two or three times that those of us that don't believe that snakes love "think lowly" of them.

[sophiedufort]

Because you've stated two or three times that those of us that don't believe that snakes love "think lowly" of them.

Here is what I said, word by word: "I just hate it when people speak lowly of snakes, and of any pets for that matter." I never made this comment in reference to people who don't believe that snakes love. My comment is strictly about people who use disparaging comments when referring to their snake pets, or their pets in general. Example in my previous post ("these idiots"). I am sorry that you misunderstood my statement.

[jjhill001]

Here is what I said, word by word: "I just hate it when people speak lowly of snakes, and of any pets for that matter." I never made this comment in reference to people who don't believe that snakes love. My comment is strictly about people who use disparaging comments when referring to their snake pets, or their pets in general. Example in my previous post ("these idiots"). I am sorry that you misunderstood my statement.

This isn't Tumbler and snakes don't have ears and can't get offended. Who cares if someone disparages them. We all obviously like reptiles and snakes otherwise we'd be on snake murdering forums (probably a thing).

The better debate is, do we think that snakes can be disparaged? If so do they care?

[sophiedufort]

This isn't Tumbler and snakes don't have ears and can't get offended. Who cares if someone disparages them. We all obviously like reptiles and snakes otherwise we'd be on snake murdering forums (probably a thing).

The better debate is, do we think that snakes can be disparaged? If so do they care?


I'm absolutely certain that my snakes cannot understand disparaging words, or any words for that matter. But I can understand these words, and that's all that matters. I just don't like how some people talk about their pets. It doesn't mean that their pets are bad. It simply reflects on their own personality.
Please read my earlier posts to understand the distinction between using disparaging words, and meaning them.

[lady_bug87]

I think it's worse when people improperly care for their animals. When they take them out of their enclosures all the time and snuggle up with them in bed, when they put little hats on them...

[eminart]

Here is what I said, word by word: "I just hate it when people speak lowly of snakes, and of any pets for that matter." I never made this comment in reference to people who don't believe that snakes love. My comment is strictly about people who use disparaging comments when referring to their snake pets, or their pets in general. Example in my previous post ("these idiots"). I am sorry that you misunderstood my statement.


The following was posted by you long before the one guy called his snake stupid, or anyone said anything disparaging, other than saying snakes don't love.

Hey, guys, are you actually snake owners, or did you join this forum just for fun? You are acting as if snakes are worthless, brainless, heartless pets.

But I do FEEL their love, and that says it all. In return, I treat them with the utmost care and affection and I make sure that they can feel it too. That's what makes a snake-human relationship worthwhile.

I just wonder how some people speak of these animals, with such detachment and (almost) disdain.

So, I'm not buying your revisionist history of the attitude you've had toward those of us who don't believe snakes love.

I don't know how old you are, or how much science you know. I'm sure you're a nice person, and I do believe you have the animals' best interests at heart. I just think you're misguided in what those interests actually are. I believe you are thinking VERY much from a human perspective, which is the worst way to understand an animal. Our human brains are quite unique in nature. I suggest you read the book, "Last Ape Standing" by Chip Walter. Sure, some of the more social animals exhibit behaviors that we might call "love" and certainly "affection", but even they aren't THINKING the same way we are, usually. But, to try to apply these types of emotions to a reptile that is not social, often eats its young, doesn't hunt together, doesn't benefit from tight-knit communities, doesn't have much of a brain, and would eat you if you were small enough, is an astronomical stretch of reality.

[SSSSnakes]

I don't consider myself a pet owner. I am a pet parent.

Pets are pets, not people. No one has ever given birth to a snake, liz., dog or cat. Parents have human children and own pets. Lets keep it real.

[jjhill001]

I'm absolutely certain that my snakes cannot understand disparaging words, or any words for that matter. But I can understand these words, and that's all that matters. I just don't like how some people talk about their pets. It doesn't mean that their pets are bad. It simply reflects on their own personality.
Please read my earlier posts to understand the distinction between using disparaging words, and meaning them.

I've read the whole dog and pony show and let me just say this.

You BELIEVE that snakes are affectionate. Every scientific study has shown otherwise. This is brought up, and then I feel sad because you attack us for stating known things.

This doesn't mean snakes don't have personalities. This doesn't mean that snakes are stupid. However they do not give one solitary crap about me as long as I'm not trying to eat them.

Just because my snakes do not love me doesn't mean I can't love them. And that's OK. Billions of human marriages are like this.

But don't come in here, stating opinion when you know dang well what the facts are. I'll find the studies and link them to you if you'd prefer.

If you want to believe your snakes love you, that's fine and it doesn't hurt any of us. But this is just you doing you. And that's great. But don't come in here talking fact if you don't have any.

[lady_bug87]

I always wonder if "pet" parents have human children...

[jjhill001]

I always wonder if "pet" parents have human children...

What's it like living in a violent video game?

[mutsos]

I wonder how you would manage if you were tied down (legs and arms fully bound) and had to swallow an entire squirrel, bones, fur and all. Do you think you could make it in less than 30 minutes (serious thinking time included, trying to figure out where to start from without choking to death)? Oh, and let's add to the challenge a little. Whoever tied you down thinks you're an idiot and didn't bother to serve you a dead squirrel. This one is very lively and truly overexcited, so you'll have to knock it out first. Are your complex emotions going to come to the rescue? Or perhaps you can't have them, since you can't efficiently handle a simple task, such as eating?

Sorry if I was not clear enough but it supposed to be a humorus post. Ι overacted because I wanted to make anyone laugh. I don't believe my snakes are worthless idiots but the fact that I like them doesn' t mean that they share the same feeling for me. It 's impossible for me to imagine how a snake or any other lizard feel or think and I am not the one to judge them. Every single animal is different and as humans some are more inteligent than others. I am not an experienced keeper but as far as I am concerned mine are not geniuses

[lady_bug87]

What's it like living in a violent video game?

Pretty good actually.

[jjhill001]

Pretty good actually.

Glad you got the joke lol. Also to your previous post about being more mad about people not taking care of their pets correctly. My grandpa hates his cat, calls him all sorts of swear words and everything. But he feeds him, waters, cleans his litter box, and lets the cat sleep on his lap in the evening.

I'd prefer that to some guy cuddle wuddling his animal but starving it to death.

[lady_bug87]

Glad you got the joke lol. Also to your previous post about being more mad about people not taking care of their pets correctly. My grandpa hates his cat, calls him all sorts of swear words and everything. But he feeds him, waters, cleans his litter box, and lets the cat sleep on his lap in the evening.

I'd prefer that to some guy cuddle wuddling his animal but starving it to death.

haha cuddle wuddle!

[sophiedufort]

The following was posted by you long before the one guy called his snake stupid, or anyone said anything disparaging, other than saying snakes don't love.







So, I'm not buying your revisionist history of the attitude you've had toward those of us who don't believe snakes love.

I don't know how old you are, or how much science you know. I'm sure you're a nice person, and I do believe you have the animals' best interests at heart. I just think you're very misguided in what those interests actually are. I believe you are thinking VERY much from a human perspective, which is the worst way to understand an animal. Our human brains are very unique in nature. I suggest you read the book, "Last Ape Standing" by Chip Walter. Sure, some of the more social animals exhibit behaviors that we might call "love" and certainly "affection", but even they aren't THINKING the same way we are, usually. But, to try to apply these types of emotions to a reptile that is not social, often eats its young, doesn't hunt together, doesn't benefit from tight-knit communities, doesn't have much of a brain, and would eat you if you were small enough, is an astronomical stretch of reality.

Thank you for selecting these quotes from my earlier postings. They do, indeed, sum up my point, but I respect your opinion that they say something else. It is your choice how you interpret my statements, although I would much prefer if they were taken for what they are, instead of being speculated upon.

I started this thread because I was curious to find out other people's opinions. Quite a few members thought it was laughable, and replied as such. They are entitled to do so, I respect that. Some others quoted old and/or outdated scientific evidence. I respect that too. But a few were unfairly rude, not only towards me, the original poster, but also towards the entire pet snake idea. I do not respect that.

I am not trying to impose my point of view. But I will not shut up when the comments posted in this thread turn nasty. This forum was created with the pets' well-being in mind, or so I believe. Yet, it seems that some people keep waking up on the wrong side of the bed, and use the forum and its members as a punching bag. I am deeply disappointed.

Oh, please note that these comments are not directed at you personally. I just summarized what happened so far, and what prompted my comments. But I don't have to convince you, do I? You are welcome to interpret my posts in every way you wish.

And yes, I do read a lot, I am highly educated, and I always strive to learn as much as I possible can about my pets, their behavior (both in the wild and in captivity) and their traits. The topic of 'snake affection' is very divided, and backed by old scientific findings that are lately being disputed. The 'limbic system' theory has become outdated, and more scientists now look at the snake brain from different angles. But that's irrelevant to me. I have six amazing snakes, they all display a primitive closeness that I like to call 'affection', and I believe there's nothing wrong with perceiving it as such.

[sophiedufort]

Sorry if I was not clear enough but it supposed to be a humorus post. Ι overacted because I wanted to make anyone laugh. I don't believe my snakes are worthless idiots but the fact that I like them doesn' t mean that they share the same feeling for me. It 's impossible for me to imagine how a snake or any other lizard feel or think and I am not the one to judge them. Every single animal is different and as humans some are more inteligent than others. I am not an experienced keeper but as far as I am concerned mine are not geniuses

Thank you for the clarification. I appreciate it.

[lady_bug87]

If you're educated than you'd know that taking an ectothermic animal out of its controlled environment for extended periods of time can cause them to become lethargic AND it can impact their overall health.

[jjhill001]

If you're educated than you'd know that taking an ectothermic animal out of its controlled environment for extended periods of time can cause them to become lethargic AND it can impact their overall health.

Anyone else remember that guy who took baths with his snakes?

[Nuxodom]

If you're educated than you'd know that taking an ectothermic animal out of its controlled environment for extended periods of time can cause them to become lethargic AND it can impact their overall health.

Hmm. I've never experienced this...ever. My snakes are out for extended periods of time quite often with no adverse repercussions whatsoever, and all have lived full lives being in excellent health. No lethargy, no health issues...hundreds of snakes, decades of handling.

I guess I'm just lucky.

[eminart]

The topic of 'snake affection' is very divided, and backed by old scientific findings that are lately being disputed. The 'limbic system' theory has become outdated, and more scientists now look at the snake brain from different angles.

Can you link to any peer-reviewed findings by these scientists on reptiles and their love and affection?

[sophiedufort]

Can you link to any peer-reviewed findings by these scientists on reptiles and their love and affection?

I was just reading this article yesterday. Please have a look:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/19/science/coldblooded-does-not-mean-stupid.html?_r=0

[lady_bug87]

Hmm. I've never experienced this...ever. My snakes are out for extended periods of time quite often with no adverse repercussions whatsoever, and all have lived full lives being in excellent health. No lethargy, no health issues...hundreds of snakes, decades of handling.

I guess I'm just lucky.

How silly of me. you're right obviously

[lady_bug87]

I was just reading this article yesterday. Please have a look:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/19/science/coldblooded-does-not-mean-stupid.html?_r=0

Not to nitpick but this is about intelligence not emotion.

[Nuxodom]

How silly of me. you're right obviously

I'm not right or wrong...just saying what I have experienced. No fact or opinion, just experience.

[Aaron_S]

Thank you for selecting these quotes from my earlier postings. They do, indeed, sum up my point, but I respect your opinion that they say something else. It is your choice how you interpret my statements, although I would much prefer if they were taken for what they are, instead of being speculated upon.

I started this thread because I was curious to find out other people's opinions. Quite a few members thought it was laughable, and replied as such. They are entitled to do so, I respect that. Some others quoted old and/or outdated scientific evidence. I respect that too. But a few were unfairly rude, not only towards me, the original poster, but also towards the entire pet snake idea. I do not respect that.

I am not trying to impose my point of view. But I will not shut up when the comments posted in this thread turn nasty. This forum was created with the pets' well-being in mind, or so I believe. Yet, it seems that some people keep waking up on the wrong side of the bed, and use the forum and its members as a punching bag. I am deeply disappointed.

Oh, please note that these comments are not directed at you personally. I just summarized what happened so far, and what prompted my comments. But I don't have to convince you, do I? You are welcome to interpret my posts in every way you wish.

And yes, I do read a lot, I am highly educated, and I always strive to learn as much as I possible can about my pets, their behavior (both in the wild and in captivity) and their traits. The topic of 'snake affection' is very divided, and backed by old scientific findings that are lately being disputed. The 'limbic system' theory has become outdated, and more scientists now look at the snake brain from different angles. But that's irrelevant to me. I have six amazing snakes, they all display a primitive closeness that I like to call 'affection', and I believe there's nothing wrong with perceiving it as such.

You speculate about everyone who posts. You speculate that people think low or don't care for their animals because they don't agree with you. You continually come across as a hypocrit. You ask everyone to treat you in a way you aren't willing to treat them. No wonder you've had people push against you.

You say you're curious about others opinions yet you started this thread by saying you know it's divided. Why come for more other than to get antagonize? You have yet to post anywhere else than this thread and 1 other.

Hmm. I've never experienced this...ever. My snakes are out for extended periods of time quite often with no adverse repercussions whatsoever, and all have lived full lives being in excellent health. No lethargy, no health issues...hundreds of snakes, decades of handling.

I guess I'm just lucky.

How do you know they've lived full lives and in excellent health? What are you comparing them to to determine these parameters?

[eminart]

I was just reading this article yesterday. Please have a look:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/19/science/coldblooded-does-not-mean-stupid.html?_r=0


Interesting. But, that's a non-peer-reviewed article about how reptiles might be a little more intelligent about how to obtain food than we previously thought. That's not our topic here. Nobody disputes that finding food is a natural behavior for reptiles.

[sophiedufort]

Highlights from the article I read yesterday:

In the plethora of research over the past few decades on the cognitive capabilities of various species, lizards, turtles and snakes have been left in the back of the class. Few scientists bothered to peer into the reptile mind, and those who did were largely unimpressed.
“Reptiles don’t really have great press,” said Gordon M. Burghardt, a comparative psychologist at the University of Tennessee at Knoxville. “Certainly in the past, people didn’t really think too much of their intelligence. They were thought of as instinct machines.” But now that is beginning to change, thanks to a growing interest in “coldblooded cognition” and recent studies revealing that reptile brains are not as primitive as we imagined. The research could not only redeem reptiles but also shed new light on cognitive evolution.
Scientists say that many early studies of reptile cognition, conducted in the 1950s and ’60s, had critical design flaws.
Now that scientists have gotten better at designing experiments for reptiles, they are uncovering all kinds of surprising abilities. Some of the most intriguing work involves social learning. The conventional wisdom is that because reptiles are largely solitary, asocial creatures, they are incapable of learning through observation.
The field of reptile cognition is in its infancy, but it already suggests that “intelligence” may be more widely distributed through the animal kingdom than had been imagined. As Dr. Burghardt put it, “People are starting to take some of the tests that were developed for the ‘smart’ animals and adapting them to use with other species, and finding that the ‘smart’ animals may not be so special.”

[lady_bug87]

Experience to experience then: I keep Amazon tree boas. They are very defensive bordering on aggression. If i shut their heat off for a while they don't move as fast. They don't strike as much. That has nothing to do with me. That's the temperature change affecting their behavior.

[sophiedufort]

Not to nitpick but this is about intelligence not emotion.

With respect, it is well known that any intelligent being is capable of emotion. Intelligence is defined as the capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc. While this may be limited and primitive in reptiles, and by no means comparable to other species, including humans, it doesn't make it any less plausible.

[lady_bug87]

Highlights from the article I read yesterday:

In the plethora of research over the past few decades on the cognitive capabilities of various species, lizards, turtles and snakes have been left in the back of the class. Few scientists bothered to peer into the reptile mind, and those who did were largely unimpressed.
“Reptiles don’t really have great press,” said Gordon M. Burghardt, a comparative psychologist at the University of Tennessee at Knoxville. “Certainly in the past, people didn’t really think too much of their intelligence. They were thought of as instinct machines.” But now that is beginning to change, thanks to a growing interest in “coldblooded cognition” and recent studies revealing that reptile brains are not as primitive as we imagined. The research could not only redeem reptiles but also shed new light on cognitive evolution.
Scientists say that many early studies of reptile cognition, conducted in the 1950s and ’60s, had critical design flaws.
Now that scientists have gotten better at designing experiments for reptiles, they are uncovering all kinds of surprising abilities. Some of the most intriguing work involves social learning. The conventional wisdom is that because reptiles are largely solitary, asocial creatures, they are incapable of learning through observation.
The field of reptile cognition is in its infancy, but it already suggests that “intelligence” may be more widely distributed through the animal kingdom than had been imagined. As Dr. Burghardt put it, “People are starting to take some of the tests that were developed for the ‘smart’ animals and adapting them to use with other species, and finding that the ‘smart’ animals may not be so special.”


Again NOTHING to do with love.

[jjhill001]

I was just reading this article yesterday. Please have a look:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/19/science/coldblooded-does-not-mean-stupid.html?_r=0

This is the article I reference in all of the are my snakes dumb posts I see. It's a great article and study that points out some problems in previous testing. But that is about learning not about feeling. If we were talking about can you condition your snake into certain behaviors the answer would be yes. But you are talking about a snake actively wanting to be around you for reasons beyond if feeling like it can get something from you.

Garter Snakes are known to excite when the top of a cage opens because they know food is likely, that's a learned behavior. But if you put a snake on the ground it will slither away from you.

[lady_bug87]

With respect, it is well known that any intelligent being is capable of emotion. Intelligence is defined as the capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc. While this may be limited and primitive in reptiles, and by no means comparable to other species, including humans, it doesn't make it any less plausible.

With respect. You're grasping at nonexistent straws

[sophiedufort]

Interesting. But, that's a non-peer-reviewed article about how reptiles might be a little more intelligent about how to obtain food than we previously thought. That's not our topic here. Nobody disputes that finding food is a natural behavior for reptiles.

I am pasting here my reply to Lady_bug's comment, as I believe it is relevant to your comment as well: "With respect, it is well known that any intelligent being is capable of emotion. Intelligence is defined as the capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc. While this may be limited and primitive in reptiles, and by no means comparable to other species, including humans, it doesn't make it any less plausible."

[Nuxodom]

Experience to experience then: I keep Amazon tree boas. They are very defensive bordering on aggression. If i shut their heat off for a while they don't move as fast. They don't strike as much. That has nothing to do with me. That's the temperature change affecting their behavior.

Of course. Such snakes - like the Emerald Tree Boa and Green Tree Python are not great animals for handling, but are quite beautiful (I've always wanted one myself, but, wont get one due to their aggression).

[jjhill001]

With respect, it is well known that any intelligent being is capable of emotion. Intelligence is defined as the capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc. While this may be limited and primitive in reptiles, and by no means comparable to other species, including humans, it doesn't make it any less plausible.

Yeah but you only need one of those things to be considered an intelligent being. Capacity for learning and understanding is much different than grasping truths, facts and meanings. Heck I'll even give them the ability to recognize an individual potentially. But when push comes to shove that isn't affection.

[lady_bug87]

Of course. Such snakes - like the Emerald Tree Boa and Green Tree Python are not great animals for handling, but are quite beautiful (I've always wanted one myself, but, wont get one due to their aggression).

My green tree is handleable.

[Nuxodom]

How do you know they've lived full lives and in excellent health? What are you comparing them to to determine these parameters?

Research. Books, research papers estimating the length of the particular snake's lifespan in years. Experts testimony of the snake's lifespan. Regular vet checkups.

[jjhill001]

Hmm. I've never experienced this...ever. My snakes are out for extended periods of time quite often with no adverse repercussions whatsoever, and all have lived full lives being in excellent health. No lethargy, no health issues...hundreds of snakes, decades of handling.

I guess I'm just lucky.

Could it be you are handling your snakes in areas that match their requirements. In theory you could hold a corn snake in a 79 degree Fahrenheit room at 60% humidity indefinitely if it would eat while you held it. I think this one is on a species by species basis.

[sophiedufort]

You speculate about everyone who posts. You speculate that people think low or don't care for their animals because they don't agree with you. You continually come across as a hypocrit. You ask everyone to treat you in a way you aren't willing to treat them. No wonder you've had people push against you.

You say you're curious about others opinions yet you started this thread by saying you know it's divided. Why come for more other than to get antagonize? You have yet to post anywhere else than this thread and 1 other.



How do you know they've lived full lives and in excellent health? What are you comparing them to to determine these parameters?

A divided topic does not necessarily mean antagonism, unless people make it that way. I was looking forward to civilized opinions, and I got plenty of them in this thread. As I said, I respect them. Why do you people assume that having a different opinion is antagonizing? What is this forum for, if I should be afraid of stating my opinion in a civilized manner? Did you create it just because it makes you feel good to patronize everyone? Who's the hypocrite here?

[Nuxodom]

My green tree is handleable.

That's great! Maybe I'll rethink getting a young orange one.

[sophiedufort]

Could it be you are handling your snakes in areas that match their requirements. In theory you could hold a corn snake in a 79 degree Fahrenheit room at 60% humidity indefinitely if it would eat while you held it. I think this one is on a species by species basis.

In my case too, although I am handling my snakes extensively, the handling area matches their requirements, so they do not suffer as a result. They are perfectly healthy and content. I take them to the vet twice a year, and the feedback that I receive from the vet is excellent at all levels.

[Nuxodom]

Could it be you are handling your snakes in areas that match their requirements. In theory you could hold a corn snake in a 79 degree Fahrenheit room at 60% humidity indefinitely if it would eat while you held it. I think this one is on a species by species basis.

Could be. I don't take my snakes into extreme cold or heat for lengthy periods of time (I've been "reminded" by several snakes with a quick bite when it was too cold for them, lol).

[jjhill001]

Could be. I don't take my snakes into extreme cold or heat for lengthy periods of time (I've been "reminded" by several snakes with a quick bite when it was too cold for them, lol).

Yeah I hate seeing that. Went to the Cleveland Reptile Show in December. Guy walks in with a ten foot burm around his neck. What a jerk I kept thinking.

Edit: it was 3 degrees out.

[RAD House]

What the op is trying to say is maybe we don't understand the reptile brain as much as we pretend to. Personally I know I own reptiles my own enjoyment solely, but I agree that there is a chance people under estimate the capabilities of the creatures.
Aaron I understand lady bug may be a long time members or even a friend but if you are giving the op a warning I think you should extend the threat of consequence. Most of her posts have been pointless and antagonistic, but that is just my opinion.

[lady_bug87]

What the op is trying to say is maybe we don't understand the reptile brain as much as we pretend to. Personally I know I own reptiles my own enjoyment solely, but I agree that there is a chance people under estimate the capabilities of the creatures.
Aaron I understand lady bug may be a long time members or even a friend but if you are giving the options a warning I think you should extend the threat of consequence. Most of her posts have been pointless and antagonistic, but that is just my opinion.

.... interesting

[Nuxodom]

Yeah I hate seeing that. Went to the Cleveland Reptile Show in December. Guy walks in with a ten foot burm around his neck. What a jerk I kept thinking.

Edit: it was 3 degrees out.

Yikes! THREE degrees?!? I'm sure the Burmese LOVED that...sheesh. Seems like the guy just wanted to show off his big boy.

[SoPhilly]

With respect, it is well known that any intelligent being is capable of emotion. Intelligence is defined as the capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc. While this may be limited and primitive in reptiles, and by no means comparable to other species, including humans, it doesn't make it any less plausible.

Mmmm... the ability to reason and the capacity for emotion are definitely thought of as two separate systems in psychology... and I believe in neuroscience as well.

[millertime89]

Well this blew up since I went to bed... I've come across quite a few GTPs, ETBs, and ATBs that were handleable. I think like we're seeing with bloods now and have seen with retics is just a matter of time to get more cbb animals into the cages and hands of hobbyists and the stories of bad attitudes will go away.

I'll weigh in with my opinion later. Posting from my phone sucks.

[lady_bug87]

Well this blew up since I went to bed... I've come across quite a few GTPs, ETBs, and ATBs that were handleable. I think like we're seeing with bloods now and have seen with retics is just a matter of time to get more cbb animals into the cages and hands of hobbyists and the stories of bad attitudes will go away.

I'll weigh in with my opinion later. Posting from my phone sucks.


You wouldn't say they're learning to love us. You'd attribute it to domestication

[sophiedufort]

Thank you, MesoCorney, you nailed it. That's what I'm trying to say. Also, it gives me satisfaction to think that my reptiles love me back, it is quite rewarding. I am blessed to have wonderful snakes, all calm and trusting, I never got bitten by a snake, and I really think that they are the best pets. I also think that they are misunderstood, and that so many unfair myths were carved in stone and are there to stay for a long time to come.

[jjhill001]

Yikes! THREE degrees?!? I'm sure the Burmese LOVED that...sheesh. Seems like the guy just wanted to show off his big boy.

It's always an older dude for some reason. Not sure why.

[Nuxodom]

Well this blew up since I went to bed... I've come across quite a few GTPs, ETBs, and ATBs that were handleable. I think like we're seeing with bloods now and have seen with retics is just a matter of time to get more cbb animals into the cages and hands of hobbyists and the stories of bad attitudes will go away.

I'll weigh in with my opinion later. Posting from my phone sucks.

I've heard - from a few herp specialty shops - that there is something with the GTP. ETB spines/skeletal system in that they shouldn't be handled (much) as they can...for lack of a better term..."break."

I didn't delve into researching this at all, though. But I found it odd that several different places said basically the same thing. Ever hear of this?

Now that I rethink of it, it seems very illogical, but I don't know...

[Aaron_S]

Of course. Such snakes - like the Emerald Tree Boa and Green Tree Python are not great animals for handling, but are quite beautiful (I've always wanted one myself, but, wont get one due to their aggression).

No snake is aggressive. Defensive or ready to eat. Not aggressive. It's small but it's a pet peeve of mine when people call snakes aggressive. It perpetuates a stigma within the general public. Different word choices can mean a lot of difference.

Research. Books, research papers estimating the length of the particular snake's lifespan in years. Experts testimony of the snake's lifespan. Regular vet checkups.

Awesome. So are these research papers including captivity? What are the control groups in these papers? What sort of research did they do? Did they take into account the captive diets of our animals? Did you get necropsies done to find out each cause of death? I'd be interested in reading a study on how captive snakes are dying. Is it old age? Cancer? Tumours? We don't really know as most people chalk it upto "just is".

I'm not saying you're experiences are wrong. As you said they are just your experiences. I've had them too. Mine disagree with yours in how to handle snakes at length. To each their own.

Good thing about a lot of snakes we keep is that they are very forgiving of our poor care choices sometimes. Hell, a buddy of mine had a female ball python retain eggs and she still ate! Ball pythons eat when in distress and unfortunately he thought this was a sign that all was well and the snake ended up passing.

A divided topic does not necessarily mean antagonism, unless people make it that way. I was looking forward to civilized opinions, and I got plenty of them in this thread. As I said, I respect them. Why do you people assume that having a different opinion is antagonizing? What is this forum for, if I should be afraid of stating my opinion in a civilized manner? Did you create it just because it makes you feel good to patronize everyone? Who's the hypocrite here?

I have not once said that your opinion is antagonizing. In fact if you read my posts they say it's open and welcome. However, how you treat/talk to others who oppose that opinion is where things become unclear. You say you respect them but your words say otherwise.

I didn't create the forum by the way. So no, it's not here to feel good about anything. You're welcome to leave it though if it isn't suiting your needs.

What the op is trying to say is maybe we don't understand the reptile brain as much as we pretend to. Personally I know I own reptiles my own enjoyment solely, but I agree that there is a chance people under estimate the capabilities of the creatures.
Aaron I understand lady bug may be a long time members or even a friend but if you are giving the op a warning I think you should extend the threat of consequence. Most of her posts have been pointless and antagonistic, but that is just my opinion.

You're welcome to your opinion. However, do not tell or share how I should moderate the forum or this thread. You have no clue on who I've warned in private or otherwise. If you don't have all the facts then maybe your opinion should be kept to yourself.

If you're so inclined you're welcome to send me a PM. Funny enough, no one has sent me one yet to talk to me one on one. If you have an issue, I welcome the message.

[SoPhilly]

Look, I get where you're coming from, Sophie - I have Boas (Epicrates/Chilobothrus), which are generally among the more handleable of snakes, which is part of why I like them. Part of what is interesting for me is to be able to have contact with such a beautiful and fascinating creature. I only handle about once a week when I clean cage "furniture", but I handle for a while.

I don't, however think they feel love and affection for me. I feel it for them, most definitely. When they do adorable things like flick at my face and get my eyelashes (adorable and tickly!) I feel the same way that I feel when my dog does something cute. There's no difference in my feeling. However, I don't need the snakes to love me in order to love the snakes, and I think it's both more interesting, and actually more caring, to think about their behaviors from a reptilian or scientific point of view, than to imagine that they love me back.

I think my snakes 1. Recognize my scent, 2. Have come to believe over time that I am not harmful and 3. Are inquisitive and like to explore outside of their cages sometimes, including in my sleeves/shirt/hair. I think I am a known "safe zone" of interesting warmth. I do think they "trust" me over other people - because I am the familiar scent (Pheromone signature? What would you call it? Help me out guys).

Example: My Hispaniola boa is a musker - the species is known for not biting, but will musk every time when feeling threatened. To avoid this, I open his cage, let him see me, put my hand near him for a few seconds, let him scent me, then stroke him gently, then pick him up. He never musks me any more. My boyfriend, on the other hand, who handles the snakes less frequently, goes through the exact same set of steps and gets hit every single time. It's kind of funny.

So when that happens, what follows is: boyfriend curses loudly, grabs wad of paper towels, wraps snake in towels, shoves snake to me, runs to bathroom to wash off. I try to calm the snake down by keeping still and making a sort-of-cave with my hands and forearms until he feels like poking his head out and exploring again. Keep in mind this boa is only 9 months old, so still pretty small.

I'm not a scientist, but I think what the snake has internalized is:
Picked up by me= interesting warm jungle gym
Picked up by boyfriend= terrifyingly thrown around

Also, when my boyfriend is holding this snake, even calmly, if I put my hand nearby, the snake will attempt to crawl to me instead. My boyfriend has actually joked "He loves you more than me (pout)" and I've always said no, he's just decided I'm safer for whatever reason. (Can't imagine)

Also, just my $.02, if you have a snake that struggles wildly to not be put back into its enclosure, you may want to check the temps/humidity in there. I have a snake that would do that (aww, right? She loves me!), and when I finally checked, the probe wasn't working and the new one shot up to almost 100 degrees the second I put it in there. (PSA: Get thermostats, people. You need a thermostat) Once I fixed it, she doesn't do that anymore. Not saying that's true in every case, or that you are being negligent of your snakes at all, Sophie, but I think part of the reason people on this forum get so frustrated when this topic comes up is that this is a public space, and who knows what impressionable kid is reading this right now. People on here can be really committed to making sure the facts are straight, and it can sometimes really be worth wondering why snakes are actually doing the things they are - from a non-human point of view.

[Aaron_S]

I've heard - from a few herp specialty shops - that there is something with the GTP. ETB spines/skeletal system in that they shouldn't be handled (much) as they can...for lack of a better term..."break."

I didn't delve into researching this at all, though. But I found it odd that several different places said basically the same thing. Ever hear of this?

Now that I rethink of it, it seems very illogical, but I don't know...

As young snakes it may true. They have a very frail form, especially as you get closer to their tails. They don't have the structure of our more heavy bodied snakes so they should be handled with a bit more of a gentle hand.

Otherwise those people are talking about old stories that just aren't true anymore.

[RAD House]

Fair enough.

[lady_bug87]

I've heard - from a few herp specialty shops - that there is something with the GTP. ETB spines/skeletal system in that they shouldn't be handled (much) as they can...for lack of a better term..."break."

I didn't delve into researching this at all, though. But I found it odd that several different places said basically the same thing. Ever hear of this?

Now that I rethink of it, it seems very illogical, but I don't know...

It's true. They shouldn't be handled before their color change. If there is damage to the prehensile tail they could have issues eating since they eat upside down.

Extra care is needed when you're handling arboreal snakes. Its not so much an issue with ATBs since they're semi arboreal

[millertime89]

You wouldn't say they're learning to love us. You'd attribute it to domestication

100%. It's selective breeding which is the way natural selection occurs in captivity which is a part of evolution.

[sophiedufort]

Look, I get where you're coming from, Sophie - I have Boas (Epicrates/Chilobothrus), which are generally among the more handleable of snakes, which is part of why I like them. Part of what is interesting for me is to be able to have contact with such a beautiful and fascinating creature. I only handle about once a week when I clean cage "furniture", but I handle for a while.

I don't, however think they feel love and affection for me. I feel it for them, most definitely. When they do adorable things like flick at my face and get my eyelashes (adorable and tickly!) I feel the same way that I feel when my dog does something cute. There's no difference in my feeling. However, I don't need the snakes to love me in order to love the snakes, and I think it's both more interesting, and actually more caring, to think about their behaviors from a reptilian or scientific point of view, than to imagine that they love me back.

I think my snakes 1. Recognize my scent, 2. Have come to believe over time that I am not harmful and 3. Are inquisitive and like to explore outside of their cages sometimes, including in my sleeves/shirt/hair. I think I am a known "safe zone" of interesting warmth. I do think they "trust" me over other people - because I am the familiar scent (Pheromone signature? What would you call it? Help me out guys).

Example: My Hispaniola boa is a musker - the species is known for not biting, but will musk every time when feeling threatened. To avoid this, I open his cage, let him see me, put my hand near him for a few seconds, let him scent me, then stroke him gently, then pick him up. He never musks me any more. My boyfriend, on the other hand, who handles the snakes less frequently, goes through the exact same set of steps and gets hit every single time. It's kind of funny.

So when that happens, what follows is: boyfriend curses loudly, grabs wad of paper towels, wraps snake in towels, shoves snake to me, runs to bathroom to wash off. I try to calm the snake down by keeping still and making a sort-of-cave with my hands and forearms until he feels like poking his head out and exploring again. Keep in mind this boa is only 9 months old, so still pretty small.

I'm not a scientist, but I think what the snake has internalized is:
Picked up by me= interesting warm jungle gym
Picked up by boyfriend= terrifyingly thrown around

Also, when my boyfriend is holding this snake, even calmly, if I put my hand nearby, the snake will attempt to crawl to me instead. My boyfriend has actually joked "He loves you more than me (pout)" and I've always said no, he's just decided I'm safer for whatever reason. (Can't imagine)

Also, just my $.02, if you have a snake that struggles wildly to not be put back into its enclosure, you may want to check the temps/humidity in there. I have a snake that would do that (aww, right? She loves me!), and when I finally checked, the probe wasn't working and the new one shot up to almost 100 degrees the second I put it in there. (PSA: Get thermostats, people. You need a thermostat) Once I fixed it, she doesn't do that anymore. Not saying that's true in every case, or that you are being negligent of your snakes at all, Sophie, but I think part of the reason people on this forum get so frustrated when this topic comes up is that this is a public space, and who knows what impressionable kid is reading this right now. People on here can be really committed to making sure the facts are straight, and it can sometimes really be worth wondering why snakes are actually doing the things they are - from a non-human point of view.

I understand your position, and really appreciate your comments.
Now you caught my curiosity. I've never seen a Hispaniola boa. I will look it up.
Just to clarify a couple of things: As I said before, I handle my snakes every day. Probably that's why they got so used to me, and clearly don't fear me at all. Handling them so much also gave me the opportunity to notice a lot more things. They have unique personalities. Some will prefer to cuddle, others love to rest around my neck, or my husband's. One of them is starting a coordinated series of muscle contractions that feels very much like a massage on my neck. Weirdly enough, she only does it when I have a migraine. Coincidence? I don't know. All I know is that she never did it when I was feeling well. Some people will laugh at my observation, but I am merely stating a fact, something that actually happens to me. Other signs of closeness that my snakes display: pressing their head against my face, along my nose. I kiss them on the side of their head, and when I stop they come back for more, poking at my lips then resting their head over my mouth inviting me to continue.
Also, thank you for your comment about the enclosure temperature (anxiety separation paragraph). I do check the enclosure conditions often enough. I make sure that everything is functional and working well.

[lady_bug87]

100%. It's selective breeding which is the way natural selection occurs in captivity which is a part of evolution.

Exactly! nothing to do with love.

[millertime89]

I don't, however think they feel love and affection for me. I feel it for them, most definitely. When they do adorable things like flick at my face and get my eyelashes (adorable and tickly!) I feel the same way that I feel when my dog does something cute. There's no difference in my feeling. However, I don't need the snakes to love me in order to love the snakes, and I think it's both more interesting, and actually more caring, to think about their behaviors from a reptilian or scientific point of view, than to imagine that they love me back.

I think my snakes 1. Recognize my scent, 2. Have come to believe over time that I am not harmful and 3. Are inquisitive and like to explore outside of their cages sometimes, including in my sleeves/shirt/hair. I think I am a known "safe zone" of interesting warmth. I do think they "trust" me over other people - because I am the familiar scent (Pheromone signature? What would you call it? Help me out guys).

I'm not a scientist, but I think what the snake has internalized is:
Picked up by me= interesting warm jungle gym
Picked up by boyfriend= terrifyingly thrown around

Also, when my boyfriend is holding this snake, even calmly, if I put my hand nearby, the snake will attempt to crawl to me instead. My boyfriend has actually joked "He loves you more than me (pout)" and I've always said no, he's just decided I'm safer for whatever reason. (Can't imagine)

Also, just my $.02, if you have a snake that struggles wildly to not be put back into its enclosure, you may want to check the temps/humidity in there. I have a snake that would do that (aww, right? She loves me!), and when I finally checked, the probe wasn't working and the new one shot up to almost 100 degrees the second I put it in there. (PSA: Get thermostats, people. You need a thermostat) Once I fixed it, she doesn't do that anymore. Not saying that's true in every case, or that you are being negligent of your snakes at all, Sophie, but I think part of the reason people on this forum get so frustrated when this topic comes up is that this is a public space, and who knows what impressionable kid is reading this right now. People on here can be really committed to making sure the facts are straight, and it can sometimes really be worth wondering why snakes are actually doing the things they are - from a non-human point of view.

Awesome. I don't have to type my opinion. This is pretty much 100% what I think.

[millertime89]

As young snakes it may true. They have a very frail form, especially as you get closer to their tails. They don't have the structure of our more heavy bodied snakes so they should be handled with a bit more of a gentle hand.

Otherwise those people are talking about old stories that just aren't true anymore.

It's true. They shouldn't be handled before their color change. If there is damage to the prehensile tail they could have issues eating since they eat upside down.

Extra care is needed when you're handling arboreal snakes. Its not so much an issue with ATBs since they're semi arboreal

Thanks guys!

Exactly! nothing to do with love.

Not one bit and I love my snakes very much.

[Nuxodom]

I understand your position, and really appreciate your comments.
Now you caught my curiosity. I've never seen a Hispaniola boa. I will look it up.
Just to clarify a couple of things: As I said before, I handle my snakes every day. Probably that's why they got so used to me, and clearly don't fear me at all. Handling them so much also gave me the opportunity to notice a lot more things. They have unique personalities. Some will prefer to cuddle, others love to rest around my neck, or my husband's. One of them is starting a coordinated series of muscle contractions that feels very much like a massage on my neck. Weirdly enough, she only does it when I have a migraine. Coincidence? I don't know. All I know is that she never did it when I was feeling well. Some people will laugh at my observation, but I am merely stating a fact, something that actually happens to me. Other signs of closeness that my snakes display: pressing their head against my face, along my nose. I kiss them on the side of their head, and when I stop they come back for more, poking at my lips then resting their head over my mouth inviting me to continue.
Also, thank you for your comment about the enclosure temperature (anxiety separation paragraph). I do check the enclosure conditions often enough. I make sure that everything is functional and working well.

When my big girl wants attention, while she is wrapped around my neck, will sometimes reach up, put the back of her head on my nose, and wait for a chin rub. After about a 5-minute rub, she'll turn around, place her chin on my nose, and fall asleep.

She's funny when she is asleep - different than the rest of my snakes. If I touch her, she'll push me away like "I'm sleeping! Leave me alone!"

[eminart]

I am pasting here my reply to Lady_bug's comment, as I believe it is relevant to your comment as well: "With respect, it is well known that any intelligent being is capable of emotion. Intelligence is defined as the capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc. While this may be limited and primitive in reptiles, and by no means comparable to other species, including humans, it doesn't make it any less plausible."


So, the answer to my question is "no", you can't link to a peer-reviewed scientific article discussing findings on snakes exhibiting love.

I get what you're saying and what you want to believe. I just don't agree with you, nor does science. The article you keep posting doesn't call reptiles intelligent animals. It says they're MORE intelligent than we might have previously thought. That doesn't put them on the level of primates.

I've kept reptiles since the early 80's. Not once has one loved me. Most tolerated me, and learned to accept my presence. Some even learned that my presence sometimes benefited them, like my Testudo Kleinmanni who rushes to the front of her table when I approach, hoping greens might appear on the magic rock. But, if I died tomorrow she wouldn't feel any sense of loss. My D. couperi will sit on my lap on the couch and sniff around on me with his tongue. He's lost most of his fear of me. I'm warm. He's content to sit around and sense his environment. He'd eat me if I were 4" tall. I absolutely adore him. My hawks, which are (legally) trapped from the wild, learn within a few days to come to me for food. Within a few weeks they'll fly free and come to me from 100 yards across a field. But, they do it for their own reasons and instincts to obtain food. They follow me through the woods and fields when they could fly away. But they don't love me. They do it because they quickly adapt to the availability of easy meals. It's just conditioned response.

Anyway, I think you're way off base. Anthropomorphizing animal behavior never fails to annoy the hell out of me. But, I think you've gotten your answer. Almost no one here agrees with you (nor does science). But, you can believe what you want. We can all be friends.

[RAD House]

From a completely evolutionary view there is no such thing as an interesting warm jungle gym. Anything as large and warm as a human would be seen as a threat by most if not all snakes in the wild. The fact that they learn to trust you shows something beyond instinct.

[lady_bug87]

From a completely evolutionary view there is no such thing as an interesting warm jungle gym. Anything as large and warm as a human would be seen as a threat by most if not all snakes in the wild. The fact that they learn to trust you shows something beyond instinct.

Sun baked rockscape. warm junfle floor, mammal dens.

Also it's not just instinct. They know they have experienced the same set of.smells and didn't die. Nothing ate them. Again intelligence doesn't equal love.

[sophiedufort]

Almost no one here agrees with you (nor does science). But, you can believe what you want. We can all be friends.

I don't expect agreement, this is not why I joined this forum. I value other people's opinions, although I may feel they are wrong. I probably got heated up when some members were too crude in their replies, but otherwise I'm perfectly fine with dissenting opinions. Of course, we can all be friends :)

[RAD House]

Eminart no has specifically studied love in snakes as our understanding of their brains is not even close to being developed to that point. We are now just beginning to understand love in the biological sense in humans. She is stating her opinion. Can you find a peer reviewed paper supporting that snakes have no ability to love? The answer is no don't bother looking.

[sophiedufort]

Eminart no has specifically studied love in snakes as our understanding of their brains is not even close to being developed to that point. We are now just beginning to understand love in the biological sense in humans. She is stating her opinion. Can you find a peer reviewed paper supporting that snakes have no ability to love? The answer is no don't bother looking.

Wonderfully said :D

[RAD House]

Excuse me lady bug I didn't think I needed to clarify I meant a living, breathing, warm jungle gym. If you agree they are more intelligent than people give them credit then whose to say that we know that they don't have the brain chemistry known as love. Please don't confuse what I am saying with that I believe my snakes love me like my future wife does.

[lady_bug87]

Excuse me lady bug I didn't think I needed to clarify I meant a living, breathing, warm jungle gym. If you agree they are more intelligent than people give them credit then whose to say that we know that they don't have the brain chemistry known as love. Please don't confuse what I am saying with that I believe my snakes love me like my future wife does.

What use would a solitary animal have for love? Or anything even remotely resembling it?

[eminart]

Eminart no has specifically studied love in snakes as our understanding of their brains is not even close to being developed to that point. We are now just beginning to understand love in the biological sense in humans. She is stating her opinion. Can you find a peer reviewed paper supporting that snakes have no ability to love? The answer is no don't bother looking.


I can't find a peer-reviewed article stating that dogs can't learn algebra either. Wonder why that is?

Also, have you ever heard of "burden of proof"? I'll summarize. If you make a positive claim (i.e. snakes love) then the burden is on you to prove that. Now, if you knew anything about debate, you'd counter by saying I'm making a positive claim that I know snakes do not love. But, you'd be failing to acknowledge that I'm simply following what all the evidence points toward, and the consensus of all scientific thought on the matter to this point.

[RAD House]

Child care, some snakes have been shown to exhibit this as earlier stated. Attraction to a mate no matter how fleeting. It I a misconception science is a field of certainties. I am only talking about possibilities.

[Derek Roddy]

Can you find a peer reviewed paper supporting that snakes have no ability to love?

Sure you can....it's called the evolution of the reptile brain and it exist in the form of 1000's of researchers worldwide who have studied the capabilities and advancements in reptile brains.

In fact, any paper you read on the subject will give you this information...if you understand what you are reading

D

[RAD House]

Eminart without actual studies no one is proving anything. This is just a discussion about opinions. You are talking about public perception not what science points to. Science points to that we do not understand snake brains very well.

[eminart]

Child care, some snakes have been shown to exhibit this as earlier stated. Attraction to a mate no matter how fleeting. It I a misconception science is a field of certainties. I am only talking about possibilities.


Nobody thinks science is a field of certainties. That is the beauty of science. It is always learning. That said, I don't expect them to discover that the earth is flat any time soon, just like I don't think they're going to find that snakes experience love despite the fact that such an emotion in a reptile would serve no evolutionary advantage.

What does it mean to only be talking about possibilities? Is that the same thing as saying you're fantasizing?

[RAD House]

Ok Derek I charge you to find just one that mentions snake love or even emotions. That should keep you from making ridiculous over generalized posts for a bit. I have to pick up dog poop.

[prairiepanda]

100%. It's selective breeding which is the way natural selection occurs in captivity which is a part of evolution.

I've never heard of a snake breeder selecting for personality traits. Maybe there are some that I've never heard of, but the overwhelming majority of snake breeders select for visual traits. So selective breeding has nothing to do with it. Also, selective breeding in captivity is artificial selection, not natural selection. What makes captive snakes easier to tame is having human exposure and captive care conditions from birth.

[RAD House]

With out any support you may be right. I like to think of it as personal hypothesis.

[lady_bug87]

I've never heard of a snake breeder selecting for personality traits. Maybe there are some that I've never heard of, but the overwhelming majority of snake breeders select for visual traits. So selective breeding has nothing to do with it. Also, selective breeding in captivity is artificial selection, not natural selection. What makes captive snakes easier to tame is having human exposure and captive care conditions from birth.

There are breeders that breed for temperament

[sophiedufort]

Also, have you ever heard of "burden of proof"? I'll summarize. If you make a positive claim (i.e. snakes love) then the burden is on you to prove that. Now, if you knew anything about debate, you'd counter by saying I'm making a positive claim that I know snakes do not love. But, you'd be failing to acknowledge that I'm simply following what all the evidence points toward, and the consensus of all scientific thought on the matter to this point.

Let me ask this, please: what type of evidence is suitable for you? I am curious, mainly because I started this thread as a result of consistent snake behavior that I believe to be affectionate. I didn't start this thread just for the sake of the topic. My snakes, whom I handle daily, display signs of affection, and that's a fact. Also called evidence. I am not going to relist all the examples I provided in earlier posts. Only one of them, that is quite compelling. Missy, my Dumeril's boa, will not leave me or my husband. She loves kisses on the side of the head, and comes back for more, poking at my lips. She 'massages' my neck (I am sure you all know what I'm talking about) ONLY when I have migraines. Each and every time. She will only stop if I move her away. She will not do the massage when I feel well. Primitive or not, snakes' displays of affection are there. Not everybody notices or recognizes them. Some people have dozens of snakes throughout their life, and they just go through a care routine, day in, day out, without learning anything new from it, but still thinking that they know just about everything about snakes.
So, getting back to my question In what way the factual description of my snakes' behavior fails to constitute suitable evidence that snakes can show affection? Is it because I am not a scientist? I just don't get it.

[prairiepanda]

There are breeders that breed for temperament

I'll accept that. I wouldn't claim that they don't exist just because I haven't heard of them. But I still stand by my point that the majority of captive bred snakes are bred for visual traits. Although, if sophiedufort's snakes happen to descend from temperament-selective lines, the topic of selective breeding would certainly enrich this conversation.

[eminart]

Let me ask this, please: what type of evidence is suitable for you? I am curious, mainly because I started this thread as a result of consistent snake behavior that I believe to be affectionate. I didn't start this thread just for the sake of the topic. My snakes, whom I handle daily, display signs of affection, and that's a fact. Also called evidence. I am not going to relist all the examples I provided in earlier posts. Only one of them, that is quite compelling. Missy, my Dumeril's boa, will not leave me or my husband. She loves kisses on the side of the head, and comes back for more, poking at my lips. She 'massages' my neck (I am sure you all know what I'm talking about) ONLY when I have migraines. Each and every time. She will only stop if I move her away. She will not do the massage when I feel well. Primitive or not, snakes' displays of affection are there. Not everybody notices or recognizes them. Some people have dozens of snakes throughout their life, and they just go through a care routine, day in, day out, without learning anything new from it, but still thinking that they know just about everything about snakes.
So, getting back to my question In what way the factual description of my snakes' behavior fails to constitute suitable evidence that snakes can show affection? Is it because I am not a scientist? I just don't get it.

In short, I reject every bit of this as evidence. Because it isn't evidence. Your personal experiences do not equal science. All of those behaviors can be explained in ways that do not involve love and affection.

Science doesn't only set out to confirm a set of beliefs, it also conducts experiments to eliminate all other answers.

What would convince me is scientific evidence. Actual studies. Scientists rationally conducting experiments without the taint of their own emotion and wishes.

And again, WHY would a snake have evolved emotional affection? There is ZERO reason to believe that reptiles love. Personal experience is not evidence. There are people who sincerely believe, and will tell you, while in tears, that they were abducted by aliens and anally probed.

[lady_bug87]

I'll accept that. I wouldn't claim that they don't exist just because I haven't heard of them. But I still stand by my point that the majority of captive bred snakes are bred for visual traits. Although, if sophiedufort's snakes happen to descend from temperament-selective lines, the topic of selective breeding would certainly enrich this conversation.

Animals adapt. captivity itself changes behavior through generations

[sophiedufort]

Personal experience is not evidence. There are people who sincerely believe, and will tell you, while in tears, that they were abducted by aliens and anally probed.

I think that your example brushes too much on extremes, and it does not bring justice to your comments.

[eminart]

I think that your example brushes too much on extremes, and it does not bring justice to your comments.


You just finished making the claim that your snake massages your neck when you have a migraine.

[Minkness]

One breeder who specializes in BPs remarked a noticeable difference in the 'defensive' nature of BP morphs. Most white morphs of any breeding are more docile and have to even try to strike him (BELs) where as darker morph types (like super cinnamons) are generally more defensive and almost always try to bite him. He does not put an absolute guarantee on this behavior however. Same species, different morphs, all genders.

Also, previously stated somewhere in all this mess is that 'all inelegant beings have the capacity for emotion'....what about people with aspgergers? Or other emotional detachment issues? Sure it's case by case scenarios, but really? Every intelligent being? Birds are highly inelegant for their brain size. Some are loyal, affectionate, mean, depressed, or purely instinct driven. Words we choose to use are strictly meant for human understanding. How can we possibly describe the truth behind animal thoughts, opinions, or emotions when we are still learning the human side of things?

I have a snake that hisses like the dickens whenever I open his enclosure. My first thought is not "omg he hates me!" So why would I 'feel' like he loves me when he curls up on my shoulder for 2 hours while I watch a movie? (Note, I have a naturally high temp normally and he's usually under my shirt. So, plenty warm).

I have one snake that lets me pet his head...the other two freak out if they even suspect me to be moving towards their head. 2 of my snakes will eat while in my hand...one will only eat if I put the meal on a flat surface and tease him with it. Different personalities? Absolutely. Different levels of 'emotion'? Perhaps...fear, Wanting to be alone, the urge to eat? Those could be classified as a type of emotion. Sadness, anger, love, ect....not to much.

Even looking at the neanderthal brain, humans even lacked those emotions on a higher level. The need for security and general bonding over trust, taking care of each other's physical needs, and so on, trumped the feelings of depression, contentment, and amorous ideas of affection. Those levels didn't exist in us until much, much later in our cultural and biological development. Even now we are constantly growing and changing our own emotions to the point some people feel too much and are diagnosed with disorders and syndromes ect.

I personally believe in compatability over love. Just because I love someone does not mean that I can live with them. And just because I know someone can take care of me doesn't mean I'll love them. That's a complexity that I struggle with on a daily basis.

In many ways, I envy my reptiles ability to be more detached. What I wouldn't give to be a Vulcan!!!

[sophiedufort]

You just finished making the claim that your snake massages your neck when you have a migraine.

Yes, I did. And this is correct. Far from your 'anal probe' example.
Just because you never experienced something like the 'massage' I am talking about doesn't make it irrational or farfetched.
Please note that I did not insinuate that you're crazy, even though I disagree with you.

[eminart]

Yes, I did. And this is correct. Far from your 'anal probe' example.
Just because you never experienced something like the 'massage' I am talking about doesn't make it irrational or farfetched.
Please note that I did not insinuate that you're crazy, even though I disagree with you.


Let me put it this way. You're not The Snake Whisperer. Everyone here has experienced the same behaviors in our reptiles. Many of us, like myself, have kept, literally, hundreds, some even thousands through the years. Yet, we attribute these behaviors to other factors. What do you think you've seen that we haven't? Judging by your first post, you seem to believe that you have some talent of reading these behaviors "the correct" way, while the rest of us are misinterpreting them as something else. Our view is that the behaviors are attributed to factors that would make sense to a snake as we understand them. Your view is that you know differently, and that snakes actually possess emotions that would not make any sense to have evolved in a reptile. What makes your more extraordinary view right, other than your personal experience?

[MDT]

I was just reading this article yesterday. Please have a look:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/19/science/coldblooded-does-not-mean-stupid.html?_r=0

NYT is now peer reviewed? Good to know. I'll cite that next conference I lecture at. Thanks!!!


(geez...ending a sentence in a preposition....that's crass)

[sophiedufort]

Let me put it this way. You're not The Snake Whisperer. Everyone here has experienced the same behaviors in our reptiles. Many of us, like myself, have kept, literally, hundreds, some even thousands through the years. Yet, we attribute these behaviors to other factors. What do you think you've seen that we haven't? Judging by your first post, you seem to believe that you have some talent of reading these behaviors "the correct" way, while the rest of us are misinterpreting them as something else. Our view is that the behaviors are attributed to factors that would make sense to a snake as we understand them. Your view is that you know differently, and that snakes actually possess emotions that would not make any sense to have evolved in a reptile. What makes your more extraordinary view right, other than your personal experience?

Let me reply to this: I said it time and time again in this thread, and I will say it again: I like to think that my snake's behavior is affective. Name it whatever you want, it is there, it is happening. I never attempted to compare their behavior to our human emotions. Everyone else does though, I don't know why. I guess that this is where the misunderstandings begin.
I don't believe that my point of view is extraordinary, right or wrong. I have merely expressed it in this forum, and I accept that many people disagree, some stronger than others.
On another note, I don't believe that keeping hundreds or thousands of snakes necessarily attracts experience, other than a lot of handling throughout the years. As a matter of fact, having so many snakes makes it nearly impossible to have proper, personalized interaction with them, and it ends up being a housekeeping experience (feeding them, breeding them, removing their poop, etc.) I believe that extensive interaction with one individual snake, or just a few instead of many, offers much more opportunity to observe reptile personality and behavior.
I don't claim to be an expert in snakes, or in any other pets for that matter. I am pretty sure that I don't know everything about my snakes, even though I did some extensive studies related to their particular species. I do claim, however, that I am a rational person and a good observer. I only speak from my experience, not from assumptions or hearsay.
Last, but not least, I love all my pets with all my heart. Their well-being is paramount, and I am constantly striving to understand and meet their needs, as well as recognizing and acknowledging their behavior. I think that that makes me a sensible snake keeper, and entitles me to claim that my observations, although not scientific, are pertinent and should be given some credit.
I hope that this replies to your query.

[sophiedufort]

NYT is now peer reviewed? Good to know. I'll cite that next conference I lecture at. Thanks!!!


(geez...ending a sentence in a preposition....that's crass)

I didn't say it was peer reviewed. I just mentioned it because I found it online. It is quite interesting.

So, take a deep breath and relax, no need to bite :)

[eminart]

Let me reply to this: I said it time and time again in this thread, and I will say it again: I like to think that my snake's behavior is affective. Name it whatever you want, it is there, it is happening. I never attempted to compare their behavior to our human emotions. Everyone else does though, I don't know why. I guess that this is where the misunderstandings begin.
I don't believe that my point of view is extraordinary, right or wrong. I have merely expressed it in this forum, and I accept that many people disagree, some stronger than others.
On another note, I don't believe that keeping hundreds or thousands of snakes necessarily attracts experience, other than a lot of handling throughout the years. As a matter of fact, having so many snakes makes it nearly impossible to have proper, personalized interaction with them, and it ends up being a housekeeping experience (feeding them, breeding them, removing their poop, etc.) I believe that extensive interaction with one individual snake, or just a few instead of many, offers much more opportunity to observe reptile personality and behavior.
I don't claim to be an expert in snakes, or in any other pets for that matter. I am pretty sure that I don't know everything about my snakes, even though I did some extensive studies related to their particular species. I do claim, however, that I am a rational person and a good observer. I only speak from my experience, not from assumptions or hearsay.
Last, but not least, I love all my pets with all my heart. Their well-being is paramount, and I am constantly striving to understand and meet their needs, as well as recognizing and acknowledging their behavior. I think that that makes me a sensible snake keeper, and entitles me to claim that my observations, although not scientific, are pertinent and should be given some credit.
I hope that this replies to your query.


Let's just shake hands and move on. You mean well. You like snakes. So, you're ok in my book. But, if you see your snake continuously zooming around his enclosure, don't assume he just enjoys jogging. ;)

[millertime89]

I'll accept that. I wouldn't claim that they don't exist just because I haven't heard of them. But I still stand by my point that the majority of captive bred snakes are bred for visual traits. Although, if sophiedufort's snakes happen to descend from temperament-selective lines, the topic of selective breeding would certainly enrich this conversation.

I definitely selected mine from a group of visually similar animals based on temper and I'll hold back the animals with the best attitude. I want not only the best looking but most docile as one thing I do is educational shows and the last thing I want is a bad tempered animal around kids and the general public.

[sophiedufort]

Let's just shake hands and move on. You mean well. You like snakes. So, you're ok in my book. But, if you see your snake continuously zooming around his enclosure, don't assume he just enjoys jogging. ;)

Sounds good :D

[Nuxodom]

Let me put it this way. You're not The Snake Whisperer. Everyone here has experienced the same behaviors in our reptiles. Many of us, like myself, have kept, literally, hundreds, some even thousands through the years. Yet, we attribute these behaviors to other factors. What do you think you've seen that we haven't? Judging by your first post, you seem to believe that you have some talent of reading these behaviors "the correct" way, while the rest of us are misinterpreting them as something else. Our view is that the behaviors are attributed to factors that would make sense to a snake as we understand them. Your view is that you know differently, and that snakes actually possess emotions that would not make any sense to have evolved in a reptile. What makes your more extraordinary view right, other than your personal experience?

And your view is fine. As is hers. I also attribute these behaviors to "affectionate factors" like she does That's from very extensive experience and my opinion. That doesn't make me inherently evil :)

[RAD House]

Eminart would you rather be the scientist who was proven wrong after saying it was possible or saying adamantly it was impossible? Darwin himself had second thoughts about his theory.

[eminart]

Eminart would you rather be the scientist who was proven after saying it was possible or saying adamantly it was impossible? From what. Darwin himself had second thoughts about his theory.

I've already shook hands and called it a day with the original poster. I really don't want you to drag me back into this, but it looks like you will.

Yes, science always learns more and adapts. As I stated earlier, that's the beauty of it. But it rarely scraps everything and starts over. It adds and morphs slightly. Darwin might have had some second thoughts, but not radical ones. And, he was right to do so, because his theory wasn't 100% correct. Not much is on the first try.

Now, since you still want to argue, explain to me why a snake would experience love. What in nature has driven them to evolve that emotion?

[MDT]

I didn't say it was peer reviewed. I just mentioned it because I found it online. It is quite interesting.

So, take a deep breath and relax, no need to bite :)

Not biting....I deal with patients everyday that find "interesting" things online.....trust me, it doesn't make them correct (WebMD, Dr. Oz, etc)...

Sophie, I like your "stick-to-itiveness"....It's obvious that you care about your animals. And from that position, you have made observations and drawn conclusions without actual testing. That's ok...most people won't...but it's simply an opinion. That's cool...I've got opinions and beliefs that some folks here would think ludicrous. They're real to me, but UN-provable scientifically, and I get that.

Enjoy your snakes, take them to a movie, have tea w them...whatever. It's all good...just from a purely neuroanatomical position, having learned in medical school (ok...waaaay back in the 90's) how complex emotions are formed (love) and how primitive emotions are formed (fear, hunger), Snakes just do not possess the structures or pathways (at least in most recognized forms) to achieve those complex emotions.

So, in closing, welcome to sSNAKESs :D
I have a feeling we'll be chatting again!

[sophiedufort]

Not biting....I deal with patients everyday that find "interesting" things online.....trust me, it doesn't make them correct (WebMD, Dr. Oz, etc)...

Sophie, I like your "stick-to-itiveness"....It's obvious that you care about your animals. And from that position, you have made observations and drawn conclusions without actual testing. That's ok...most people won't...but it's simply an opinion. That's cool...I've got opinions and beliefs that some folks here would think ludicrous. They're real to me, but UN-provable scientifically, and I get that.

Enjoy your snakes, take them to a movie, have tea w them...whatever. It's all good...just from a purely neuroanatomical position, having learned in medical school (ok...waaaay back in the 90's) how complex emotions are formed (love) and how primitive emotions are formed (fear, hunger), Snakes just do not possess the structures or pathways (at least in most recognized forms) to achieve those complex emotions.

So, in closing, welcome to sSNAKESs :D
I have a feeling we'll be chatting again!

Thanks, MDT :D

I like talking to people who are good sports. I'm sure we'll chat again. I plan to have snakes for the rest of my life.

[RAD House]

No eminart you are right we are done. I don't like repeating myself and you have hit my limit.

[prairiepanda]

I’m disappointed in the lack of research applied to this conversation. Many people are referring to “modern science”, “decades of research”, and “scientific studies” but nobody has cited anything specifically other than a New York Times article which doesn’t even cite the research that it is reporting on, so we can’t investigate for ourselves to judge the reliability of these sources. It is true that I did not cite any research myself when I first posted my opinion on this matter, but I also did not claim that my opinion stemmed from some mysterious research paper. It was my opinion based on my very limited prior knowledge of neurology and personal experiences. But with the conversation going on this long and becoming so heated, we should be stepping beyond opinion and personal experience to support our arguments at this point. So I have decided to look into the topic on my own and share with you the most relevant and recent sources that I could find. To be clear; I did not conduct my research in such a way as to support my opinion, but rather to shed light on all sides of this discussion. I have excluded findings that seemed somewhat irrelevant, outdated, or vague, but nothing has been excluded due to disagreement with my own opinion.

Firstly, regarding the evolution of the brain and similarities between the brains of humans and other animals, the most straightforward(though least thorough) source I have is my vertebrate biology textbook. For all those with a library card:
Kardong, Kenneth V. "The Nervous System."*Vertebrates: Comparative Anatomy, Function, Evolution. 6th ed. New York: McGraw-Hill, 2012. 652-66. Print.
While there are homologs of key brain structures across all vertebrates, the capacity and function of these homologs varies between different kinds of animals according to their needs and modes of living. These differences correspond to significant differences in behavior and bodily functions. The brains of reptiles are drastically different from animals such as birds and mammals that are widely accepted as being capable of affection. Furthermore, there are several structures present in birds and mammals which do not have any homologs in reptiles, not all of which have known functions. This does not shed any light on our debate, but I felt the need to counter the idea that “It is now known that brain structure and chemistry is identical in all vertebrates from the lamprey to humans.” as it was used as a supporting argument within this discussion. Brain structure, and even cell class diversity, varies substantially between species even within the same order. More in-depth information on brain variation can be found here:
Northcutt, R. G. "Understanding Vertebrate Brain Evolution."*Integrative and Comparative Biology*42.4 (2002): 743-56. Web.
The study is a bit old, but goes into specific differences in cell classes and general structure. There is no information here tying these differences to the presence or absence of affection, but with the incredible differences between reptile and mammalian brains, I see no reason why one should assume the same responses are happening in reptiles as in mammals.


Here’s an interesting discussion of the evolution of brains in general:
Barbieri, Marcello. "Origin and Evolution of the Brain."*Biosemiotics*4.3 (2011): 369-99. Web.
Barbieri draws on numerous sources dated as early as 1943 and as late as 2010. I did not assess these sources, as there were quite a lot, but I did not see any red flags indicating anything may have been taken out of context or from a non-reputable source. The article goes into great detail about how different aspects of the central nervous system came to be. All aspects of the brain and its functions can be related to evolutionary theory, and strong development of specific neurological traits has been linked to various evolutionary advantages. This is quite relevant to the question that has come up repeatedly here: How would love and affection benefit snakes as a species? From an evolutionary perspective, it is unlikely that this trait would be retained since the majority of snakes are reproductively successful without any apparent form of affection. However, it is also made clear that the concepts of thought and mind are so poorly understood that we cannot clearly define what comprises the mind of other species.


This is my favorite find out of them all:
Ledoux, Joseph. "Rethinking the Emotional Brain."*Neuron*73.4 (2012): 653-76. Web.
It’s quite a lengthy paper, but it’s a great read and explores all aspects of the concept of emotion, how it works, and various theories regarding its purpose and evolution. They did up all their references in blue so it is quite clear where their ideas are coming from if you wish to explore any of them yourself. One section that really popped out to me was this:
And given that some of the neural
mechanisms involved in conscious representations may be
different in humans and other animals, we should be cautious
in assuming that the subjectively experienced phenomena that
humans label as feelings are experienced by other animals
when they engage in behaviors that have some similarity to
human emotional behavior. In short, if the circuits that give rise
to conscious representations are different in two species, we
cannot use behavioral similarity to argue for similarity of
conscious feelings functionally. These observations add neuro-
biological substance to the point famously argued by the
philosopher Thomas Nagel. He proposed that only a bat can
experience the world like a bat, and only a human can experi-
ence the world like a human (Nagel, 1974). We should resist
the inclination to apply our introspections to other species.

Which is later expanded upon with this:
We will
never know what an animal feels. But if we can find neural corre-
lates of conscious feelings in humans (and distinguish them from
correlates of unconscious emotional computations in survival
circuits), and show that similar correlates exists in homologous
brain regions in animals, then some basis for
speculating
about
animal feelings and their nature would exist. While such specula-
tions would be empirically based, they would nevertheless
remain speculations.
With 9 pages of citations backing up this paper, many of which are quite recent, its standpoint is certainly compelling. Ledoux has granted that we simply do not know enough about non-human brains in general to determine with certainty whether any animal besides humans feels human-like emotions. However, he indicates that because the structure and makeup of the brains of non-mammals is so drastically different from that of humans, we cannot assume that they feel or interpret anything in any similar fashion to the way we do. He has suggested that it is possible that other animals, even ones with extremely primitive central nervous systems such as invertebrates, may be capable of extremely diverse ranges of mental activity including human-like emotion or even experiences beyond human capabilities, but through means that are completely different from human means of emotion.



This is not a scientific study, but it’s a very nice observation of a mother Arizona black rattlesnake caring for her young. SocialSnakes: A day in the life of a rattlesnake family (http://socialsnakes.blogspot.ca/2011/10/day-in-life-of-rattlesnake-family.html)
Whether you consider this behavior in itself to be a show of affection is up to you(I personally have no clue where to draw the line between maternal instinct and familial affection, if there is a line at all, since affection is such a vague concept), but it does at least show that some degree of social affinity exists among snakes. Most snakes do not care for their young and would even eat their own, though, so it’s impossible to say how prevalent the genetic and physiological basis for this behavior might be throughout suborder Serpentes.

Expanding on the question of the extent of social behavior in reptiles, we have this brief paper:
Doody, Sean, J, Gordon M. Burghardt, and Vladimir Dinets. "Breaking the Social–Non-social Dichotomy: A Role for Reptiles in Vertebrate Social Behavior Research?"*International Journal of Behavioural Biology: Ethology*119 (2013): 95-103. Web.
Summarizing various observances of social behavior in reptiles, including group coordinated hunting in sea snakes. Most of the examples described are not relateable to mammals, for example the ability of sea turtles to detect and respond to the activity of their clutchmates before hatching, so it is difficult to assess them as “social” behavior, but indeed we can expect reptilian social dynamics to be quite different from that of mammals.

What I’d really like to see is a study monitoring the brain activity of rattlesnakes carrying out maternal care tasks and comparing it to brain activity during activities such as “kissing” when interacting with handlers. Would the same regions of the brain light up? How would the results then compare to acts of affection in birds or mammals? But the biggest question is; who would pay for such research?

I personally do not see things any differently after having done my research. I have certainly gained new insight into the potential for social motives and a wide range of feelings and emotions in reptiles, but I still do not see a reason to believe that snakes are affectionate. I would not say it’s entirely impossible, but it is something that does not seem to make sense in light of the evidence currently available. The desire to care for and protect a member of another species does not seem like a trait that would benefit snakes in the progress of their evolution. Keep in mind that although mammals and birds arose after reptiles, from common ancestry, they did not arise from extant lineages of reptiles. The reptiles we see around us today are entirely distinct from the common ancestors shared by birds and mammals.

On a side note, if anyone has access to this paper:
A.B. Butler, R.M.J. Cotterill, Mammalian and avian neuroanatomy and
the question of consciousness in birds, Biol. Bull. 211 (2006) 106–
127.
I’d be very interested to hear about it. Apparently it describes the role of the limbic territory of the striatum, which is not present in reptiles, and compares its role in birds and mammals.(it was cited in another paper I read, which I did not include here due to its vagueness) I feel a better understanding of the function of the limbic territory would contribute to this discussion.

[sophiedufort]

I feel a better understanding of the function of the limbic territory would contribute to this discussion.

Thank you so much for your detailed and valuable research.

[jjhill001]

I really hate how cool studies like these cost money to look at.

[Rattlehead]

Awesome research Prairiepanda! Gotta read it with calm.

[prairiepanda]

I really hate how cool studies like these cost money to look at.

If anyone has specific questions I can pull up excerpts, but unfortunately I can't share the full articles. Hopefully there are other students or university-associated users here who also have access to this literature and can add their own input.

[jjhill001]

Yeah, I was trying to pull some research on Baird's rat snakes. They wanted like 12 bucks to look at a 40 year old study.

[SoPhilly]

"What I’d really like to see is a study monitoring the brain activity of rattlesnakes carrying out maternal care tasks and comparing it to brain activity during activities such as “kissing” when interacting with handlers. Would the same regions of the brain light up? How would the results then compare to acts of affection in birds or mammals? But the biggest question is; who would pay for such research?"

Yo, I absolutely would, let's get a kickstarter going :D.

Honestly, I think a bigger question is how you would get a rattlesnake to engage in maternal care tasks while in a functional MRI scan. You'd then have to get in there with it and let it kiss you, no fair using some other species of snake. :p

I all seriousness, good on you for researching, and if you stumble across anything free you can link to for those of us outside the ivory tower, please do! I was actually trying to read about the limbic system of reptiles earlier today because of this thread.

Excerpts and price tags. Boo.

[SSSSnakes]

Half the people in the world don't know how they feel or if they love something. They have to go to a psychiatrist to try and understand what they feel. How are we to really expect to learn what a snake is feeling.

Can a snake love something? It's like the age old question. How many licks does it take to get to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop? The world may never know. LOL

[eminart]

No eminart you are right we are done. I don't like repeating myself and you have hit my limit.

Repeating what you've already said wouldn't answer my question, which is why I've asked it three times in this thread. So, yes, I think we're done, since nobody has an answer for what would drive a snake to evolve the emotions of love and affection.

[RAD House]

Read prairie pandas findings. If you still don't see an answer I can not help you.

[RAD House]

Peer reviewed paper about snakes being capable of love.

Here's What Happened When a Florida Man Tried to Kiss a Cottonmouth Snake (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/heres-what-happened-when-a-florida-man-tried-to-kiss-a-cottonmouth-snake/ar-AAbAqmv?ocid=DELLDHP#image=1)

[MDT]

Peer reviewed paper about snakes being capable of love.

Here's What Happened When a Florida Man Tried to Kiss a Cottonmouth Snake (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/heres-what-happened-when-a-florida-man-tried-to-kiss-a-cottonmouth-snake/ar-AAbAqmv?ocid=DELLDHP#image=1)

you're kiddin', right?

[MDT]

it's like the age old question. How many licks does it take to get to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop? The world may never know. Lol

142.........




:)

[FWK]

This is the best thread this forum has produced in some time. I have re-read it several times and appreciate all of the opinions and points of view offered. Y'all made me rethink my own position on the matters discussed here. I've refrained from posting as it has developed because every time I thought I had something to say, eminart said it for me. Bravo.

sophiedufort, I will address you directly now because I believe to patronize someone is about the biggest insult I can pay another adult, and I respect the way you've handled yourself here enough to be blunt with you. I believe you are wrong, and, frankly, a bit nuts. That is my opinion, take it for whatever it is worth to you. What you do in the privacy of your own home is your business, but that you honestly believe your snakes like to be kissed on the head amazes to me. It flies in the face of everything I know to be true about snakes. Even if snakes are capable of some form of primitive emotion I simply can not fathom a snake enjoying a human kissing them on the head. This type of statement can only further the public's perception that people who keep snakes are freaks, and I adamantly maintain that I do not keep snakes because I'm a freak. I keep them because I am utterly fascinated by them. I keep them because I love animals, I love nature, I love learning about them, and studying them in both natural and captive settings. I want to know as much about them and their role in the natural world as possible. I am a skeptic, I want truth, facts, knowledge. This is where you and I are so fundamentally different. We perceive the world in very different ways. You like kissing your snakes, you get something out of it. The snake does not. It only puts up with it. The snake has learned (this is where verbiage gets a little sticky, I'll explain myself in a moment) that you are not a threat and touching its head does not trigger a fight or flight response. Now just how much the snake can actually "learn" I don't know. I use the word "learn" because I don't have a better term in my vocabulary. To say it learns implies this is knowledge it can actively employ and I don't know if this is the case, or if it is simply a conditioned response. For the most part I believe it to be a conditioned response, but I agree there is much we do not know about the reptilian brain. What I do know is that the snake does not like being kissed on the head. I think you are badly misreading your snakes behavior in many ways. Look, I admire your love for your animals and respect your opinions, but I do worry about some of your habits. Whether you like it or not, handling the snakes for long periods of time is stressful for the animals. If you really do want what is best for your snakes I implore you to take a hard look at how often and long you have them out.

The reptilian brain is a very simple computer. I don't believe, at all, that it is capable of "higher emotions". I've had snakes since I was 5. I'm in my early 30s now. I have had very docile snakes but I never once felt like my snake was loving, self aware, or even capable of moderately complex thought, for that matter.

Snakes have "modes", as Steve Irwin used to say. Resting mode, mating mode, hunting mode, eating mode, exploring mode. That's it. It's like a Commodore 64 with scales.

There are quite a few statements in this thread that rang true to me, but this is a gem.

This thread took a turn to "light hearted" banter.

Discussing which comic book character is the most promiscuous didn't seem relevant to the subject matter at hand, or even anything to do with this forum. It looked like a rather blatant and juvenile attempt to derail an otherwise interesting thread.

[prairiepanda]

Can a snake love something? It's like the age old question. How many licks does it take to get to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop? The world may never know. LOL

That question is easy to answer, if you've got $100 kicking around and are really curious. Challenge a high school robotics club develop a licking simulation machine for "a chance to win" $50. Then spend the other $50 on tootsie pops and have the machine lick all of them to the core, counting each lick(this is a feature that can be programmed into the robot so it wouldn't even need to be monitored closely). Get yourself a free trial of JMP or learn the language of R to analyze your data, and you have your answer ;)

Tootsie pops aside, you're right that we might not ever know for certain whether snakes can love. It might be impossible to test directly(although the Ledoux paper I found has some suggested directions of research that could be a starting point). But we can do as we do with many of the mysteries of nature and formulate theories with high potential of being true based on collected evidence. After all, gravitational radiation has never been observed directly but we deduce that it must exist based on the effects we observe on mass. It could turn out that the theory is entirely wrong, but the likelihood of it being correct is reasonably high because it fits our observations and the model makes accurate predictions. I would never seek to "prove" anything in science, but we can all search for compelling evidence of what is true.

[Nuxodom]

What I do know is that the snake does not like being kissed on the head. I think you are badly misreading your snakes behavior in many ways.

I'm dying to read how you unquestionably *know* this. Please elaborate.

[MDT]

I'm dying to read how you unquestionably *know* this. Please elaborate.

What possible evolutionary advantage could a snake derive from getting kissed on its head? In higher mammals (you know, hairless apes), kissing via PET scanning, EEG, etc.,(read: measurable scientific means) to cause changes in brain activity in the pleasure centers of the brain. Dopamine, oxytocin, and other neurochemicals can be measured to increase with human touching, kissing, love/lust...MRI/PET activity shows increases (and decreases in some portions) of neural activity/blood flow. Sooooo......yeah......

Now, there may be studies out there that address similar studies in reptiles....however, I would venture that no one has wanted to spend the $$$ on this. If you can find those studies, please reference them.

Back to evolutionary advantages......in humans, those activities reinforce attraction, coupling and ultimately procreation/propagation of the species. No such activity is seen in lower vertebrates (of which, snakes are)....and you could cite the fact that most vertebrates will court a mate (def not the same tho), however, at no time in the history of life on this planet has a snake ever kissed another snake, so I can confidently say that snakes have zero idea what a kiss is, what it's for, how it work, whatever. All they see is a big hairy predator with forward facing eyes lowering its head close to theirs and for all they know, they are hoping that big hairy vertebrate isn't coming in to bite their head off.

This is how I know they don't like kissing.
http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh572/mtucker66/489325_zpsiuprka0d.png (http://s1252.photobucket.com/user/mtucker66/media/489325_zpsiuprka0d.png.html)

[lady_bug87]

This is the best thread this forum has produced in some time. I have re-read it several times and appreciate all of the opinions and points of view offered. Y'all made me rethink my own position on the matters discussed here. I've refrained from posting as it has developed because every time I thought I had something to say, eminart said it for me. Bravo.

sophiedufort, I will address you directly now because I believe to patronize someone is about the biggest insult I can pay another adult, and I respect the way you've handled yourself here enough to be blunt with you. I believe you are wrong, and, frankly, a bit nuts. That is my opinion, take it for whatever it is worth to you. What you do in the privacy of your own home is your business, but that you honestly believe your snakes like to be kissed on the head amazes to me. It flies in the face of everything I know to be true about snakes. Even if snakes are capable of some form of primitive emotion I simply can not fathom a snake enjoying a human kissing them on the head. This type of statement can only further the public's perception that people who keep snakes are freaks, and I adamantly maintain that I do not keep snakes because I'm a freak. I keep them because I am utterly fascinated by them. I keep them because I love animals, I love nature, I love learning about them, and studying them in both natural and captive settings. I want to know as much about them and their role in the natural world as possible. I am a skeptic, I want truth, facts, knowledge. This is where you and I are so fundamentally different. We perceive the world in very different ways. You like kissing your snakes, you get something out of it. The snake does not. It only puts up with it. The snake has learned (this is where verbiage gets a little sticky, I'll explain myself in a moment) that you are not a threat and touching its head does not trigger a fight or flight response. Now just how much the snake can actually "learn" I don't know. I use the word "learn" because I don't have a better term in my vocabulary. To say it learns implies this is knowledge it can actively employ and I don't know if this is the case, or if it is simply a conditioned response. For the most part I believe it to be a conditioned response, but I agree there is much we do not know about the reptilian brain. What I do know is that the snake does not like being kissed on the head. I think you are badly misreading your snakes behavior in many ways. Look, I admire your love for your animals and respect your opinions, but I do worry about some of your habits. Whether you like it or not, handling the snakes for long periods of time is stressful for the animals. If you really do want what is best for your snakes I implore you to take a hard look at how often and long you have them out.



There are quite a few statements in this thread that rang true to me, but this is a gem.



Discussing which comic book character is the most promiscuous didn't seem relevant to the subject matter at hand, or even anything to do with this forum. It looked like a rather blatant and juvenile attempt to derail an otherwise interesting thread.

When threads get derailed like this its because people have chosen to momentarily break tension. it gives the topic some cool-down time. That's what you need sometimes when you're beating a dead horse. A break.

[Derek Roddy]

Ok Derek I charge you to find just one that mentions snake love or even emotions. That should keep you from making ridiculous over generalized posts for a bit. I have to pick up dog poop.


There are not any papers mentioning or proving that there is "love" in snakes but, there are hundreds of papers that show why snakes don't "love".

In fact, any paper ever written on the subject tells us their capability and what and how we understand them....If YOU understand what you're reading.

You can start with book called "reptile biology".

It will explain everything you need to know about their makeup, brains and evolutionary existence.

Cheers,
D

[prairiepanda]

In fact, any paper ever written on the subject tells us their capability and what and how we understand them....If YOU understand what you're reading.


All the papers I found on the subject have been very careful to state the limitations of research in this area and concede the fact that we cannot know these things for sure. I've noticed the same among the textbooks I have around from both me and my roommate(my major is biochemistry and hers is psychology). I have, however, seen other books before(in elementary school) which make "definitive" claims about reptile intelligence and emotional capacity, but back then I wasn't interested in checking author reputability so I can't say much about those. And I guess I haven't read "every paper ever written", but the papers I found do fall under that category. If you've misunderstood something, I can pull up excerpts from the papers to clear things up.

If this 'Reptile Biology' book you've recommended has solid evidence of your claims, I'd be very interested in checking it out. I'll need to know the author(s) and edition number in order to find the one you're talking about. Please share.

I'm not trying to debunk your opinion; there's plenty of evidence to back it up. However, these blanket statements about science in general and your overall attitude towards the concepts of proof and evidence are not helping your case. Make what conclusions you like based on the evidence we have, but please accept the limitations of current research. Just telling people "you're wrong because SCIENCE" is not a constructive argument. You want to aim for something more like "I'm more likely right because evidence A,B,C" and/or "You're probably wrong because evidence D,E,F"

[Derek Roddy]

If this 'Reptile Biology' book you've recommended has solid evidence of your claims, I'd be very interested in checking it out. I'll need to know the author(s) and edition number in order to find the one you're talking about. Please share.




Any reptile biology book tells us what snakes brains are capable of. It's no secret how the reptile brain works and what those parts that make up the brain are capable of based on the evolution of all other animals on this planet.

ALL higher level thinking/reasoning, etc animals on this planet all have the same brain parts. Snakes DO NOT have these parts that have allowed evolution of higher thinking in other species. If reptiles would have evolved with those evolutionary traits...then this conversation may have merit. BUT, It doesn't or hasn't nor will it.

It's not rocket science people.

D

[prairiepanda]

Any reptile biology book tells us what snakes brains are capable of. It's no secret how the reptile brain works and what those parts that make up the brain are capable of based on the evolution of all other animals on this planet.

ALL higher level thinking/reasoning, etc animals on this planet all have the same brain parts. Snakes DO NOT have these parts that have allowed evolution of higher thinking in other species. If reptiles would have evolved with those evolutionary traits...then this conversation may have merit. BUT, It doesn't or hasn't nor will it.

It's not rocket science people.

D

Yes, reptile brains are missing regions that birds and mammals have, which is pretty strong evidence considering that some of those regions are associated with emotion. But we cannot say that it is impossible to have emotion without these regions. There are also regions of the reptile brain that do not have homologs in humans and are not thoroughly understood, so it's possible(though unlikely) that reptiles have their own means of feeling emotion, including affection. No biology book I have read has made the claim to know every capability of the reptile brain, though we can make assumptions based on homologous structures in mammals. Also, we do not know how the function of the limbic territories varies between species(there is at least one paper on the topic which I do not have access to, so the answer might be out there). If other animals, especially birds, have other regions contributing to their affectionate and emotional responses then we would have reason to dismiss the absence of limbic territories in reptiles as evidence of lack of affection.

I'd like to point out that people without university library access can still carry out effective research. News articles, and even blog posts, can be referenced if they cite their sources. They tend to take the hard part out of understanding a paper as well. And you can check their sources by reading the abstracts to determine whether the research and conclusions drawn match what the blog describes, and also look up contributing authors to see what qualifies them to conduct such research and what other kinds of research they have published.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I do agree that you're probably right about reptiles not being capable of affection and I share that view. Any evidence to the contrary has thus far proven to be quite weak. I only wish to correct flaws in the structure of your argument.

[EL Ziggy]

ANYTHING is possible no matter how infinitesimally small the probability. We may NEVER KNOW with absolute certainty a snake's propensity to feel or display LOVE as WE subjectively define it but the science so far overwhelmingly says snakes do not have that capability. Based on science, my personal experiences and observations, and the vast majority of keepers that I know, I'm going to stay in the snakes don't love camp. I still LOVE SNAKES and I hope my snakes "feel" or sense that they are safe and well cared for.

[grapefruit]

Damn, i just spent atleast an hour reading all these posts

[SSSSnakes]

Damn, i just spent atleast an hour reading all these posts

That's an hour of your life you will never get back. LOL

[shaunyboy]

Damn, i just spent atleast an hour reading all these posts

i got to page 2,jumped to the last page,as i knew where it was all heading...

snakes run on instincts

not emotions


for the record my husbandry is spot on,and all other snake needs are met



cheers shaun

[RAD House]

It is amazing how many experts we have on here that know so much more than actual scientists. As prairie panda discovered the general consensus among the scientific community is that we have very little understanding about the snake brain. When I was in college 10 years ago for my organismal biology degree, I worked with a professor named Steven Mackessy. His focus was in venomous snakes. Even way back then they were questioning our understanding of the reptile brain. Trust me I understand "peer reviewed papers" just fine, and have read more in my four years in school than most read in a life time. I wish I could have gone into the biology field but unfortunately there was not enough money in it to pay off my school dept. I am not sure where most of you got your information but I can tell you most of what you are basing your opinions on is out dated by at least 20 years. Derek from your responses I put you some where around high school or below, and those text books are more often out dated by 30 years or more. Snakes being creatures of entirely instinct is equivalent to the all snakes being "poisonous" of the past. Functions of public perception not real science.

[Aaron_S]

I think this thread has run it's course. It's now becoming circular and I really don't care for those who want to whip out their "I have a bigger science ***** than you do".

You're welcome to continue that in private messages.

If any of you have an issue please send me a message.