Saying goodbye to insects for good

[Batch]

I grew up with all lizards as my mom very much disliked snakes. However I always hated the bugs that came along with them. Now I'm down to just my BTS who's doing awesome on my raw turkey, egg, veggies, banana and calcium diet. I'd like to put together a list of all the options I have for the insect free lizards.

So what are my new options for lizards that don't need insects?

What I've got so far...
Disliked-Iguana, Desert Iguana, Cresties, chukwalla,

Liked- Pink Tongue Skink, Tegu (any), Caiman Lizard, On the fence about Uros as I've been tail whipped a few times, Leachies, Larger monitors

[Batch]

I should be clear before angry people try to rip me apart. Yes I am aware that some of the animals listed may require some insects. However, it is either a small part of the diet or only for a juvenile portion of their life.
EG- Tegus and monitors are perfectly fine with a diet of 70% San Diego monitor diet and only need insects as a small portion of the diet while young. As adults the other 30% would rodents.

TL;DR Can need some insects, but not large portion of diet.

[trailblazer295]

Insects were a part of what steered my away from them in the first place and towards snakes. Other factors were also part of the equation but I'm more comfortable with feeding rodents then insects.

[Batch]

Yeah, and it's not that I dislike the insects themselves. Crickets die if you look at them wrong, roaches take the same amount of work as my pets if I wanted them to breed, and the rest I have to remember to reorder every couple weeks. Call me lazy, but buying a huge bag of frozen rodents and sticking it in the freezer, or making raw turkey with egg shells is preferable.

Any Ideas???

[Minkness]

Lol Batch. So true about roaches being a secondary pet XD

I kinda like that though.

Since I'm a bit of a gecko freak I may be biased, but Leachies are awesome, but make sure you do get a babie as they have a SERIOUS bite as a juvie on up. Seen one rake a chunk of flesh from the top of someone's finger before. He was otherwise unhandled though.

[millertime89]

Leachies are indeed awesome as Minkness said. I love my brother's and I've considered getting one of my own.

[eminart]

You'll be back. ;)

I got out of bug eaters a few years ago. I've recently started a new dubia colony and am starting to ramp back up. Dubia are a breeze, in my opinion. Throw them in a tub with some heat, toss food in once in a while, and they'll be overrunning the tub in a few months.

But, snakes ARE easier than insect eaters.

[Batch]

I'm so glad you said that eminart. You're in huntsville (I was on redstone arsenal for two years) where the humidity is perfect for them. In these drier limits they won't breed unless you mist them at least daily.

The only benefit is that if something terrible were to happen here and they all got out they would probably die, and if I were back in the south I'd probably just move. :shocked:

[eminart]

I'm so glad you said that eminart. You're in huntsville (I was on redstone arsenal for two years) where the humidity is perfect for them. In these drier limits they won't breed unless you mist them at least daily.

The only benefit is that if something terrible were to happen here and they all got out they would probably die, and if I were back in the south I'd probably just move. :shocked:


Ah, I suppose humidity could be an issue. You might just cut down the ventilation though.

Also, I think, in my mind, I was combining your post with a post by someone else. You aren't getting a snake (yet ;) ) so disregard my last statement. But, I'm sure vegetarian lizards are also easier than bug eaters.

[pet_snake_78]

I actually find crickets really easy to breed. Right now I am breeding silkworms, crickets, and earthworms. Hard to argue with frozen rodents, though, effortless! I also like that larger snakes don't need to be fed as often. I find breeding insects kind of interesting though and I enjoy growing my own produce to eat myself and gutload with. The crickets from the store are very hit and miss but the ones I breed myself are nearly indestructable, I rarely, if ever, find dead ones in the tubs. An adult egg eating snake should be a good choice, too. One only needs to go to the store and buy quail or chicken eggs.

[jarich]

If you think crickets and roaches are difficult, please do not get a monitor

[Batch]

Haha this has gotten out of hand. I have kept many snakes, but am currently only down to one. I took care of a full grown Salvator when the owner couldn't.

Everybody's all gung ho on the "these things are SO EASY, if you can't raise them then don't go anywhere near herps" bandwagon that the question isn't being answered. Maybe I don't want to spend time feeding, misting, and watering bugs or hear the constant scurrying every time I go in my reptile room.

Thanks to those who actually gave suggestions.

[prairiepanda]

If you think crickets and roaches are difficult, please do not get a monitor

I don't think the OP has any misconceptions about the difficulty of raising large lizards vs. crickets. The complaint here is that the amount of care required by crickets and roaches is too much, in the OP's opinion, to be worth it just for feeders. I'm sure they'd be happy to provide much greater levels of care to a lizard, as the reward is much greater in that case.

I know I hated trying to raise and breed crickets back when I had anoles because of all the escapes and deaths, and I can't legally breed roaches here but if I could I know their production would far exceed my needs(I know people who do this, despite our laws, but their tarantula collections are in the hundreds and they have other insectivores as well) So I go to the pet store down the street twice a month to get just enough feeders to feed all the spiders. But insectivorous lizards need to be fed every day or every 2 days, so that strategy wouldn't be practical.

Out of your options, I would vote tegu, skink, or leachie, but I haven't had any direct experience with the others on your list. But even just looking at these three, they all have completely different care requirements and really fill different roles as pets. They're all great, but they'd all have something different to offer. The cheapest to care for would be leachies, but the most personality(in my opinion) would be tegus. Have you interacted with these in person at all?

[Batch]

I don't think the OP has any misconceptions about the difficulty of raising large lizards vs. crickets. The complaint here is that the amount of care required by crickets and roaches is too much, in the OP's opinion, to be worth it just for feeders. I'm sure they'd be happy to provide much greater levels of care to a lizard, as the reward is much greater in that case.


Yes, thank you I give my animals the care and attention they need because I enjoy having them. I don't like having bugs at all so if I can get away from them I'm going to.

As far as interaction. Tegus, yes. PTS, no although I'm told they're just a slimmer and faster BTS. Also have never seen Leaches in the flesh, but really really want to.

[jarich]

Actually Prariepanda, I think the OP has many misconceptions about the difficulty of raising a large monitor. However, my concern was with the overall idea of feeding and care inherent in the posts. The OP seems to be trying to shape the animal to their needs rather than the other way around. With monitors especially, and most lizards in general, that is a recipe for disaster. That you have cared for snakes has little to do with it Batch. Most people keep snakes in the most bare bones, simple set up, and with a snake you can often get away with it. Monitors are extremely intelligent animals with very specific parameters needed, including diet and enrichment of their environments. Its not about what you want to do or not, its about what is best for the animal. The OP has shown in the preceding statements that they seem more interested in doing what is easier for the keeper rather than what is known to be the best for the animal.

If you are unwilling to provide what is best for the animal, dont get the animal. My advice is stick to snakes.

[reptiledude987]

What are leaches? I googled them and only got results for leeches.

[eminart]

Actually Prariepanda, I think the OP has many misconceptions about the difficulty of raising a large monitor. However, my concern was with the overall idea of feeding and care inherent in the posts. The OP seems to be trying to shape the animal to their needs rather than the other way around. With monitors especially, and most lizards in general, that is a recipe for disaster. That you have cared for snakes has little to do with it Batch. Most people keep snakes in the most bare bones, simple set up, and with a snake you can often get away with it. Monitors are extremely intelligent animals with very specific parameters needed, including diet and enrichment of their environments. Its not about what you want to do or not, its about what is best for the animal. The OP has shown in the preceding statements that they seem more interested in doing what is easier for the keeper rather than what is known to be the best for the animal.

If you are unwilling to provide what is best for the animal, dont get the animal. My advice is stick to snakes.


With all due respect, this is nothing but assumptions and has nothing to do with the question that was asked. For all you know, Batch might have more experience with monitors than anyone in the country. I know you mean well, but I think we, on forums, need to start treating each other as equals. Help where help is asked for, or obviously needed, but don't assume everyone else isn't knowledgeable or doing their research. This advice goes for me as well.

[jossh27]

I'm so glad you said that eminart. You're in huntsville (I was on redstone arsenal for two years) where the humidity is perfect for them. In these drier limits they won't breed unless you mist them at least daily.

The only benefit is that if something terrible were to happen here and they all got out they would probably die, and if I were back in the south I'd probably just move. :shocked:

For this reason alone is why i want nothing to do with lizards... I mean i like lizards but NEVER want to deal with a roach outbreak. EFF THAT!

[jossh27]

What are leaches? I googled them and only got results for leeches.

Rhacodactylus leachianus i think Is what they are talking about

[jarich]

With mutual respect, it is more than assumptions, although there may have been some conjecture on my part. I am not assuming Batch has limited experience or research, he stately that plainly himself and it is very easy to deduce from his posts. I have watched plenty of these amazing lizards die a slow painful death because the purchaser did not understand what they were getting themselves into regarding care and diet. These are living creatures that have incredibly specific requirements. Im not trying to be mean in any way, but if the OP is not ready to fulfill the extensive requirements of the lizard, then it really is best not to look at monitors as a purchase. I personally feel they should be a permitted only genera, but that is a different topic altogether.

I also do not at all agree when you state that we all have to treat each other as equals. Yes, we do need to treat each other with respect and care; that is most definitely true. Its important to remember that in order to help the reptile, you must first communicate well to the person keeping it. However, someone with years of experience and even more years of research is not the same as someone who spent a half hour looking on the internet. We are not all equal, whether in forums or otherwise, and while it can be frustrating sometimes to hear advice other than what you want to hear, it is very important for new people to listen to the experience and/or knowledge they are being given. Its always hardest to hear the response that doesnt agree with you, but there is a difference between that and a harsh or mean response. I understand that I was perhaps too blunt earlier, and that was not my intent. But please understand that if these details seem too fiddly or are not something you will concern yourself with two, five or ten years down the road, then this is not the type of animal for you. They require absolutely giant enclosures, with bioactive soil and carefully thought out diets. Bioactive soil includes caring for the bugs in it that help the nitrogen cycle, plants, etc. All fiddly details that dont even relate directly to the diet, yet still require effort and time on the keepers part. Then there is the photo, hydro and thermo gradients as well as the specifics of the diet, which vary for each species. These things are important, not merely details to be thought of once and then left alone.

So yes, I appreciate that there is some experience here, however, when someone asks about keeping monitors but wants to set limits on their care based on convenience, I will highly recommend a different animal. Monitors are not convenient.

[Batch]

Dang Jarich who pissed in your corn flakes?

I was just looking for suggestions here. There is and always have been more than one way to skin a cat.

PLEASE just step away from the keyboard.

[Batch]

Jarich
If I may make myself worthy in your eyes so that I may speak. I achieved my BS in biology assuming I would get into vet school, but when that door closed I chose a new path.I have cared for many species of herps including monitors, and I will admit that two have died short of their lifespan. The first was an ADV+ BD and the second my first childhood leopard gecko who escaped. If this is adequate for me to speak than I shall.

Is a bio active substrate not easier for the keeper because he does not have to clean it?
Isn't it true that the only benefit of this is to reduce protozoa count, as bacteria doesn't decrease in number and only changes?
Isn't it true that the nitrogen fixing bacteria in your substrate are only symbiotic with the plant life, as nitrite concentration, ammonia, and in certain cases the bacteria themselves are harmful to the animal inhabitant?
Doesn't all the empirical evidence on the larger monitor lizards show that insects (even those consumed in the wild), may not be the best for ensuring health of long term captives? See San Diego Zoo Diet Research
You say monitors are highly intelligent, and intelligence is merely an evolutionary response to increase motility, therefore housing monitors at all is fitting the lizard to the person and is not best for the lizard.
The fact is that the reptile hobby is a fringe science at best. We don't know as much as we think we do, and we're all just trying to do the best we can.

With that said, I thank you for reminding me why I have disassociated myself rom reptile forums for so long. I shall be returning to that, Batch signing off.

[jarich]

Jarich
If I may make myself worthy in your eyes so that I may speak. I achieved my BS in biology assuming I would get into vet school, but when that door closed I chose a new path.I have cared for many species of herps including monitors, and I will admit that two have died short of their lifespan. The first was an ADV+ BD and the second my first childhood leopard gecko who escaped. If this is adequate for me to speak than I shall.

Is a bio active substrate not easier for the keeper because he does not have to clean it?
Isn't it true that the only benefit of this is to reduce protozoa count, as bacteria doesn't decrease in number and only changes?
Isn't it true that the nitrogen fixing bacteria in your substrate are only symbiotic with the plant life, as nitrite concentration, ammonia, and in certain cases the bacteria themselves are harmful to the animal inhabitant?
Doesn't all the empirical evidence on the larger monitor lizards show that insects (even those consumed in the wild), may not be the best for ensuring health of long term captives? See San Diego Zoo Diet Research
You say monitors are highly intelligent, and intelligence is merely an evolutionary response to increase motility, therefore housing monitors at all is fitting the lizard to the person and is not best for the lizard.
The fact is that the reptile hobby is a fringe science at best. We don't know as much as we think we do, and we're all just trying to do the best we can.

With that said, I thank you for reminding me why I have disassociated myself rom reptile forums for so long. I shall be returning to that, Batch signing off.


Its not about being worthy or adequate, especially towards me, its about your attitude towards the lizard and the knowledge necessary to keep them healthy. I have seen a young teenager learn to care for a monitor carefully and watched a vet slowly kill one in his care too. The difference was in their desire to do what was necessary to insure the optimal health of the lizard, even when it was not easy for them to do so. (To be clear here, Im not referring to the insects either)

You seem to be able to do some research, thats a great start. With much more research, youll understand that while some things can be done in different ways, others require strict guidelines. Think of how much more youll know when you dont need me to tell you that the answers to all those questions you asked are no; or that while the reptile hobby is just that, a hobby, the real scientific research behind what we do is both legion and readily accessible. The real question is will you continue in that research? Or will you leave the forum and simply walk away every time someone disagrees with you? Because there are people here willing to teach you what you need to know, as long as you are actually willing to listen to the suggestions you are given.

[Batch]

Nope, I just wanted to see if you knew anything. The answer to all of the questions were yes, now, please just step away from the keyboard.

[Pirarucu]

I'm sorry but Jarich is correct. If you're not willing to feed bugs, get a species that doesn't eat bugs. Get a snake or get a herbivorous lizard. Don't try to substitute something else for insects that's more convenient for yourself.

As far as the SDZ diet... It works, and it's convenient. That's about all that can be said for it. The SDZ designed the diet because they were breeding Komodos and had a whole lot of hungry mouths to feed. Almost all zoos feed a diet of whole prey items, not the SDZ diet. That was used because it was the only practical way to feed large numbers of Komodos (which, unlike most monitors, don't have many bugs in their natural diet). There is no reason (read: justification) for keeping a single pet monitor on a simplified, minimalist diet. My mangrove gets Dubias, Red Runners, crickets, earthworms, hornworms, shrimp, mice, fish, and chicks.

If you don't want to feed bugs, get something that doesn't eat bugs.

[jarich]

Nope, I just wanted to see if you knew anything. The answer to all of the questions were yes, now, please just step away from the keyboard.

"And that is why you fail..."

As I said before, there are people here willing to teach you valuable information, but it would first mean giving up on this 'pissing contest' nonsense. I dont particularly care if you learn anything or not, especially since you dont actually have a monitor. However, in order to learn something and actually gain some benefit from being here you must first understand that you dont know it all to begin with. Is this how you went into every biology class you started?

[prairiepanda]

There is and always have been more than one way to skin a cat.


I don't know about that; the guys at the table next to mine in my vertebrate anatomy lab deviated from the lab manual and mangled the cat's pelt to the point where it didn't fit back on properly so several areas were desiccated to the point of making multiple lab assignments impossible to complete.



As for this whole monitor thing; regardless how prepared you might be to care for one, I'd hesitate to recommend monitors to anyone unless they have a passion specifically for monitors. Granted, I have no personal experience with them. But my research into them has indicated that they are a special class of pet and are extremely demanding. I can't comment on whether you'd be able to provide the correct care, but I can say that you've listed several potential candidates for a new pet and that tells me that you do not have a particular preference for monitors. I feel that you would receive the same rewards for caring for a tegu that you seem to hope to receive from a monitor. Yes, they are quite different animals, but if what you want is a big pet lizard and you haven't got a particular passion for monitors, then a tegu would satisfy that. Tegu are still quite demanding animals, but seem to be more forgiving and less dangerous. And if you got a yearling you wouldn't be dealing with bugs. I wouldn't recommend powdered/pelleted/whatever synthetic diets though simply because they are very generalized and none are specifically aimed at a certain species. Besides, making tegu meals is fun!

That said, if you just want a new pet that's easy to care for, the PTS or Leachie would be the way to go. Tegus are awesome if you want something big and can provide everything it needs.

[Pirarucu]

As for this whole monitor thing; regardless how prepared you might be to care for one, I'd hesitate to recommend monitors to anyone unless they have a passion specifically for monitors.Bingo. If you get a monitor, it should not be because you drew up a list and "monitor" was one of the choices.

[trailblazer295]

Alas the first thread I found on this with two members going at it, always some on every forum.

I'll try and calm things for a moment

1st If you're both as experienced on reptile forums as you strongly suggest and if you're on any forum often for anything you should both know you'll never get a consensus agreement on anything. There will always be at least one person who says something different.

2nd Being experienced on forums a lot you should take everything with a grain of salt and not believe everything anyone has said as gospel. No matter how experienced etc. We all know each individual animal is different within their own species. In the wild and captivity and there are countless ways people have successfully cared for the same animal with different methods. Goes for any animal as a pet. Some might be wrong and the animal is just tough but that doesn't mean there is only one right way, there are variations.

3rd Many experienced people on forums (any kind) often make the assumption (myself included) on a persons experience and knowledge based off the initial question without any to little effort to inquire about what they know etc. For example we're on the second page and the OP has indicated he has cared for monitors. We should all take more time to simply ask questions before jumping the gun which often ends in situations like this.

4th You're both obviously adults so try not to take everything so personally and just let things go.

Okay moment over. Take from it what you will. Most of us are on here to try and learn, get advice and suggestions and input. Lets try to keep it on track.

[RAD House]

Jarich you may be an expert, but no one is going to listen to you being so confrontational. From a third party view you started this "pissing contest" in the first place. If you really want to help the lizards learn how to give someone constructive criticism and return with your wisdom. The whole point of this thread was the OP asking people to give suggestions on lizards that do not require insects, not to be drilled on ones that do. As Batch stated the ideal place for your lizard would not be in a cage, so slow your role a bit and realize that we all choose pets based on what we think is best for our own lives.

[Pirarucu]

we all choose pets based on what we think is best for our own lives.That doesn't mean we get to ignore what's best for the animals. I can't buy a cat because I think it would be a good pet for me, then feed it lettuce because I'm a vegetarian and that's what I want to feed it.
Pick a pet based on what the animal needs, and your ability and willingness to provide that. If you choose an animal based on any other criteria, you have no business owning that animal.

[RAD House]

That is exactly what the op was attempting to do until you two some how turned this into an argument about monitor lizards.

[RAD House]

Also anyone who taking time use the forum as learning tool is obviously interested in giving their animal the best life they can provide. Just relax, give your friendly advice, and don't be so pretentious.

[NewHerp293]

Agreed^ all he said originally was that he wanted something that didnt need insects their entire lives...i dont know where this whole thing came from

[Aaron_S]

Also anyone who taking time use the forum as learning tool is obviously interested in giving their animal the best life they can provide. Just relax, give your friendly advice, and don't be so pretentious.


I am going out on a limb and suggesting you've only been on forums for a short period of time. That's okay. Just means your new.

Many people come to forums to ask questions so they can get answers to justify their own decisions. That decision is often the wrong one and not in the animals best interest. It's quite common that people don't have the animals needs ahead of their own. (If they did there would be far less "bad feeders" and "bad shedders" etc. )



I did find it funny that Jarich has now been called "confrontational". That's a riot.

[RAD House]

I am new to this forum but not to forums. I have been part of many forums where members realize you can give advice with out being condescending. Did you even read this thread? Jarich has been on the verge of insulting the op`s intelligence based on a lot of assumptions in my opinion. So yes confrontational. I have had problems with both feeding and shedding due to the bad advice given by my local pet store. I joined this forum to learn the correct way to care for my animals. Luckily I was graced by members who gave me kind advice and encouraged me to stay and learn. I wonder how many people who now have no idea how to care for their animals because they were chased from the forum by bullies and the moderators who support them.

[jarich]

I am going out on a limb and suggesting you've only been on forums for a short period of time. That's okay. Just means your new.

Many people come to forums to ask questions so they can get answers to justify their own decisions. That decision is often the wrong one and not in the animals best interest. It's quite common that people don't have the animals needs ahead of their own. (If they did there would be far less "bad feeders" and "bad shedders" etc. )



I did find it funny that Jarich has now been called "confrontational". That's a riot.

I have to admit, that did make me giggle a bit too Aaron! Glad someone else saw the irony. ;) And sorry, for the rest of you in this thread, we're not making a joke at other's expense, its just that anyone who has been on this forum for awhile will know that for a long time I was sort of the peacekeeper, for want of a better term, possibly to a fault.

Anyway, it was not my intention to be confrontational; as I said earlier, I probably shouldve been less blunt. And by no means do I take anything on a forum personally, or get excited about it in any way. These are simply discussions and should never be personal (ahem...Mesocorney). However, after rereading what I wrote, I dont think that what I said was really confrontational so much as it was simply not what you wanted to hear. Again, disagreeing is not a bad thing. If we all agreed all the time, we would not progress in the science of what we do. I like it when knowledgable people disagree with me too, because it means I have to either support what Im saying or go back and do more research. Thats a good thing for us all, regardless of experience. Thinking that everyone must agree all the time and just let people continue on in their error seems like a big mistake though. Sorry, but knowledge is not democratic. Take a look at any pet store and youll see that the majority of people dont have a clue what they are doing. Simply because someone is not aware of what is best does not mean that there is not a 'best' way of doing things. Of course many people will disagree on what is best practice for keeping a certain reptile, and there are times where things can be done in multiple ways. However, there are also simply times where a certain way of doing things is best, regardless of the consensus of new keepers. For instance, monitors are best kept in a high humidity environment. Now many people will try to keep them otherwise, and they will survive that way for sometimes years. So you will hear many different opinions from new keepers on forums that they did it this way or that other way. But you wont see anyone with a 5+ year old monitor do it any other way, because at that point all the their monitors have died of organ failure due to long term, low level dehydration. As a more applicable example for this thread, the feeding of the SDZ diet is something akin to feeding your child hamburgers that you have packed with a bunch of vitamin pills. The monitor will happily eat it up, and as Piracacu stated, its fine for short term situations borne out of necessity. However, its not the same or anywhere near as good as a well balanced, natural whole prey diet by any means.

And please do not think that I just made a bunch of knee jerk assumptions here either. I went solely based on what the OP wrote, as I dont know him beyond that. His posts stated that he was looking to have a very specific set of requirements for his next animal. As such, a monitor is not a good choice. That was all I said, 'Please dont get a monitor if those are your requirements'. Everything else that happened was a result of the OP and others feeling like that was some sort of personal affront. Im not saying the OP is not a knowledgeable person or that they cant take care of a monitor. What I said was that if those are the requirements you are restricting yourself to, it would be best to look at other lizards. I simply stated my opinion, which is what the OP asked for. Obviously I have no control over what the OP does, or anyone else, so you can take or leave it. But if you start a thread asking for opinions, its a little disingenuous to be all upset if someone doesnt just put down exactly what you want to hear.

[RAD House]

If you think crickets and roaches are difficult, please do not get a monitor

This in itself contains a personal judgement and unfair assumptions. First you assume they couldn't care for the bugs and not that they just didn't enjoy them. If you read the first you would see the op stated it was the latter. Second you assume to know what sort of care this person is able to provide for a hypothetical lizards. Come on now don't back pedal, it looks quite clumsy. This was your least insulting post.

Context is a killer bud, but that is on you. There are things I say to my friends because I know they know me well enough to get my humor. I would not say these same things to strangers as it might get me punched in mouth.

I never said you were wrong, in fact said you might be an expert, just that you need to watch your tone. Maybe you don't understand the difference between being blunt and being condescending.

The democracy of knowledge is a good comparison, but that is not how you have conducted yourself here. Unless you consider our joke of a Congress to be a real democracy.

[Aaron_S]

I am new to this forum but not to forums. I have been part of many forums where members realize you can give advice with out being condescending. Did you even read this thread? Jarich has been on the verge of insulting the op`s intelligence based on a lot of assumptions in my opinion. So yes confrontational. I have had problems with both feeding and shedding due to the bad advice given by my local pet store. I joined this forum to learn the correct way to care for my animals. Luckily I was graced by members who gave me kind advice and encouraged me to stay and learn. I wonder how many people who now have no idea how to care for their animals because they were chased from the forum by bullies and the moderators who support them.

I did read the thread. Why are you being condescending to me in this manner? Why are you being insulting to me about "supporting a bully"? Sounds rather confrontational don't you think?

Anyway, I read and re-read the thread and went over the comments. I don't see Jarich as insulting. He's to the point and blunt and that's okay. He wasn't advocating anything wrong. You, and the OP, have taken it as a personal insult. Jarich has clearly stated in a pretty nice way that that wasn't his intention. I agree. His past time here tells me this. He had the animals best interest at heart. This is also clear by the fact there's been no argument against his facts but against his apparent poor delivery. Again he's apologized for that. So please, you can keep anymore comments about his behaviour off this thread. If there's to be any repercusions it will be dealt with by the moderator team. For all you know it's being discussed as I type this.

As for you, I'm happy and proud that you seek better advice and are open to it. Unfortunately, you can't group everyone as having the same feelings and thoughts as you. So you can't make broad assumptions that everyone is like you. I believe you've already pointed out the faults in assuming things about others, correct?

This in itself contains a personal judgement and unfair assumptions. First you assume they couldn't care for the bugs and not that they just didn't enjoy them. If you read the first you would see the op stated it was the latter. Second you assume to know what sort of care this person is able to provide for a hypothetical lizards. Come on now don't back pedal, it looks quite clumsy. This was your least insulting post.

Context is a killer bud, but that is on you. There are things I say to my friends because I know they know me well enough to get my humor. I would not say these same things to strangers as it might get me punched in mouth.

I never said you were wrong, in fact said you might be an expert, just that you need to watch your tone. Maybe you don't understand the difference between being blunt and being condescending.

The democracy of knowledge is a good comparison, but that is not how you have conducted yourself here. Unless you consider our joke of a Congress to be a real democracy.

I'm not defending Jarich himself as I'd say this regardless of who you are responding to.

You mention context is a killer but yet forget we're talking through the written word which tends to lead to wrong interpretations at times. Why is it that Jarich is being condescending and not blunt and to the point instead of you and the OP simply not reading it in the right context?
At this point it's probably a bit of both. Jarich's tone may have seemed harsh but I also believe it made the OP and you defensive for whatever reason.

Everyone has said their point so let's leave it at that and move on shall we? This way we don't need to a close a thread with some pretty great content. The readers can read and glean what they want from both Jarich's comments, yours and the OPs.


I will say the way I interpreted Jarich's first post and hopefully it changes the context of things for anyone who may have felt he was being rude.

I read it as that someone should re-think getting a monitor lizard if they find keeping the feeders difficult or time consuming. Monitors aren't "plug and play" like a snake. It pretty much is a working micro-ecosystem when it comes to these animals and if someone doesn't quite have the time for the feeders then maybe they should reconsider the monitor.

[jarich]

So this went a little bit sideways, and that is my fault entirely for not being more careful. You're right in that the communication of the point is at least as important as the point itself. I'll try to be more careful going forward with the tone and delivery. I'm happy that this forum has come so far as to call me out for being discourteous.

I do not however wish to lose the point, which is important, to the lack of care in my communication. I understand that insects can be annoying and fiddly. They are slightly gross at first, and perhaps seem like they aren't really worth it. However, you're talking about taking on a 20+ year commitment to tiny details and constant supervision when getting a monitor. Seriously, if keeping roaches seems like too much bother, there should be double, triple and quadruple questioning to consider that perhaps your frame of mind is not in the right place for an animal that fantastically complex. These are not easy animals, and I don't mean that as a challenge. It's not the "prove me wrong" kind of thing, because that wears off after a year or two. It's the attention to detail when that tricky little monster doesn't show you any love or even indication that there's anything wrong, because they won't. In fact, you won't know you've been slowly torturing it until it's on deaths door, and then it's too late.

instead, it's the continuing to build larger and larger enclosures, rather than getting more and more animals. It's the constant reading, and reading and reading simply to improve the experience of that amazing animal that relies 100% on you for survival. It's the doing anything necessary, including raising all manner of bugs and creepy crawlers if necessary, whether you like it or not. You get bored? It's suffers. Stop paying attention? It suffers. You pawn it off on someone else? In my experience, it's likely dying a slow painful death. So please, I will truthfully beg you. If your question is should I get this or that type of reptile/lizard; the answer is never monitor. If you love and breathe and eat and drink nothing but monitors for ages, then rescue one of the many suffering ones that are being dumped on various CL or forums by people who thought they knew they were ready for a monitor. Don't buy one, don't support the further suffering of wild animals. Search out the way to be a solution, not be part of an ongoing problem.

[Batch]

SO glad these updates went to my dummy email, this got intense. Jarich was confrontational in tone, which is fine, this is the Internet after all. I don't think he was insulting. I do think he added absolutely nothing to the forum, and filibustered every post.

I just thought I should post that I did take in a rehomed water monitor. She's awesome and feeding on a 100% insect free diet. :eek:
Pics coming after she acclimates a bit more, she was in a 8x4x4 and now she gets the room the previous owner had built as a sauna, how perfect is that!? :)

[RAD House]

Jarich I wish you would have started with your last statements. Your points are valid and important to the op's post. Aaron as a moderator I feel it is your responsibility above all others to be neutral, which I feel you have not. You act like it was just me who felt he crossed a line but if you look back that is simply not true. Asking you a question is not being condescending, and saying you supported someone after you just supported them is not an insult. I may have pushed the line on insulting Jarich and for that I apologize.

[RAD House]

Also good luck with your new lizard Batch can't wait to see some pictures. I am incredibly fascinated with monitors, especially perenties and lace monitors. I am not sure that I will ever own one due to their space and time constraints, but you never know.

[jarich]

SO glad these updates went to my dummy email, this got intense. Jarich was confrontational in tone, which is fine, this is the Internet after all. I don't think he was insulting. I do think he added absolutely nothing to the forum, and filibustered every post.

I just thought I should post that I did take in a rehomed water monitor. She's awesome and feeding on a 100% insect free diet. :eek:
Pics coming after she acclimates a bit more, she was in a 8x4x4 and now she gets the room the previous owner had built as a sauna, how perfect is that!? :)

May I ask what size she is and what you are feeding her? What is the housing like for her? Remember she will be laying eggs each year, so soil will be important.

[Batch]

No you most certainly may not. If you had read the earlier posts you would have realized I've successfully kept them before, and I would greatly appreciate the avoidance of a narcissistic and denigrating response to my care, by an individual that I don't know his knowledge level or actual experience.

This threads done though so I'll get pics in a new thread soon.

[Pirarucu]

"I don't like people being blunt/rude with me. I'd better start calling them names."

[Aaron_S]

I am a moderator yes. With that means I have to apply the forum rules to everyone equally.

However Batch I have another job for the forum too. To help keep misinformation off the forum. It would be a greater diservice to allow that to happen. Sorry you don't like that.