30 Years of Reptiles - First Boa

[eminart]

As the title says, I've kept reptiles for 30 years, and I've never owned a boa... until now. We had a reptile show in town today. I went with the intention of picking up a bug eater of some sort (leopard gecko, tarantula, scorpion, etc.). I recently started a dubia colony and I only have 3 tarantula slings and 2 mantis nymphs to eat them at the moment. So, I was going to surprise my daughter with something new. She and her mom have been in NY for a week and are flying in tonight. Anyway, to get to the point, one of the first tables I saw had some beautiful BCI's. They caught my eye immediately, but I had no intentions of buying a snake today. So, I shopped around looking for a gecko or something that I liked. There were some that were ok, but nothing that really caught my eye for a good price. I kept going back to the boa table. She had 5 males when the show started... then 4... then 3... then 2... then I couldn't take it anymore. I asked her to hold one, and made a quick trip to an ATM. I didn't take much money, precisely so I wouldn't spend much money. So much for that.

Anyway, here he is, my (and my daughter's) first boa. He's basically a super pastel, het anery with three different pastel lines. Anyway, I thought he was gorgeous. I've always liked boas, just never had one for whatever reason. Going to pick my daughter and wife up at the airport tonight. I know my daughter will be excited.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j120/eminart/Herps/Boa/Just%20Home_zpsklf5uvxp.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j120/eminart/Herps/Boa/DSC_0004%202_zpslnwpv1qx.jpg

[SnoopySnake]

Nice little boa! I'm sure you guys will be very happy with him.

[sharthun]

Cool liitle guy! Congrats!

[trailblazer295]

That's a stunning boa, I fear I'll end up in a similar boat as you one day. My only saving grace is not having a pre-set up cage for one when I'm actually ready to house one properly. Lucky for me during my recent trip to an expo no boas like that came into my vision.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Very nice little one!

[Tsubaki]

what a gorgeous little boa :D

[eminart]

Thanks, everyone! Waylon Jennings (my wife does most of the naming here and has a flare for the ironic) is settling in nicely.


That's a stunning boa, I fear I'll end up in a similar boat as you one day. My only saving grace is not having a pre-set up cage for one when I'm actually ready to house one properly. Lucky for me during my recent trip to an expo no boas like that came into my vision.

I'm usually not one for impulse buys. Pretty much anything I buy has been thoroughly thought-out, researched, and planned. But, at this point, I've accumulated enough enclosures, and supplies that I could buy almost anything at the drop of a hat and put together a home for it within an hour. So, there was really nothing holding me back when I saw this little guy, except an ATM trip. The breeder even threw in a free UTH.

[Albert Clark]

Nice! Handsome little rodent killer. Lol. If you use that uth make sure to get a thermostat to regulate the heat coming off of it. Good luck!

[Snakesitter]

Cute little guy. Congrats!!!

[eminart]

One more photo, from today.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j120/eminart/Herps/Boa/DSC_0032_zpsv4r6ocs4.jpg

[trailblazer295]

Thanks, everyone! Waylon Jennings (my wife does most of the naming here and has a flare for the ironic) is settling in nicely.




I'm usually not one for impulse buys. Pretty much anything I buy has been thoroughly thought-out, researched, and planned. But, at this point, I've accumulated enough enclosures, and supplies that I could buy almost anything at the drop of a hat and put together a home for it within an hour. So, there was really nothing holding me back when I saw this little guy, except an ATM trip. The breeder even threw in a free UTH.

It's a great looking boa, I hope to own one myself one day that looks that nice. I'm only a reptile newbie. I only have equipment for 2 cages. At the same time I don't do it half assed either, UTH, pro product rhps and Ranco stats for each on both cages. A few hundred dollars on equipment I don't have just laying around. I hope to one day be able to have a boa like that it's certainly on my wish list.

[eminart]

Just a few more photos. He's a cool little guy.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j120/eminart/Herps/Boa/DSC_0015_zpssqezxtib.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j120/eminart/Herps/Boa/DSC_0031_zpsh4dsc7av.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j120/eminart/Herps/Boa/DSC_0054_zpstme9gust.jpg

[EL Ziggy]

Very nice boa and cool pics too eminart.

[sweatshirt]

Beautiful little guy, awesome pics! :D

[Albert Clark]

Stunning little rodent killer! Feed him well. :blink:

[eminart]

Thanks, everyone! He's doing well, though I haven't been able to convince him that frozen thawed is better yet. We'll get there though.

[Snakesitter]

Don't sweat it too much. They almost all convert eventually. :-)

[eminart]

Took advantage of a nice afternoon and took young Waylon out for a short photoshoot.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j120/eminart/Herps/Boa/DSC_0041_zpsag03quko.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j120/eminart/Herps/Boa/DSC_0031_zpsbnjrgvea.jpg

[Snakesitter]

Sweet job!!

[eminart]

Young Waylon finally got around to shedding for the first time in my care. He took his sweet time, but I'm actually hoping to keep him on the smaller side. So I don't really mind the slower growth. I've kept his prey size a little smaller than he could handle.

Anyway, here's a photo of him in his new pants.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j120/eminart/Herps/Boa/DSC_0025_zpsjq2ohz0y.jpg

[AlexCrazy]

what a gorgeous little boa :D
id love to have a dad that buys me a snake as a gift! and also have reptile shows here.. ha ha ha :D :(
congrats! :D

[psychocircus]

nice boa. How is your daughter liking him?

[eminart]

nice boa. How is your daughter liking him?


She likes him. She likes them all though. I'm afraid she takes after her daddy in that way.

[Albert Clark]

Great pics em! The boa is all that and a bag of chips! He looks extremely healthy.

[bigsnakegirl785]

I don't think limiting food will keep your snake smaller, just smaller for longer. It will eventually reach the size it was meant to reach.

[eminart]

I don't think limiting food will keep your snake smaller, just smaller for longer. It will eventually reach the size it was meant to reach.

This is actually an interesting topic for which there isn't a whole lot of real information. I've tried researching this in the past, but the only information I could really find was the opinions of long-time breeders and keepers. When I was researching, it was for the opposite reason - would a snake that hadn't been fed much during his developing years still attain maximum size?

I didn't find much, but here is my opinion. I think what you say is somewhat true, but not totally. I suspect there is a period of years where a snake will grow rapidly. For example, if a corn snake is 5 years old and 2 feet long, I don't think it will grow like a 1 year old, even if it is fed all it would eat the remainder of its life. So, I do think that feeding less in the early years will limit a snake's adult size.

[bigsnakegirl785]

This is actually an interesting topic for which there isn't a whole lot of real information. I've tried researching this in the past, but the only information I could really find was the opinions of long-time breeders and keepers. When I was researching, it was for the opposite reason - would a snake that hadn't been fed much during his developing years still attain maximum size?

I didn't find much, but here is my opinion. I think what you say is somewhat true, but not totally. I suspect there is a period of years where a snake will grow rapidly. For example, if a corn snake is 5 years old and 2 feet long, I don't think it will grow like a 1 year old, even if it is fed all it would eat the remainder of its life. So, I do think that feeding less in the early years will limit a snake's adult size.

There have been people who rescued 7-9 year old snakes that were stunted, and attained a massive growth spurt in their care with proper nutrition. I unfortunately don't know any key words, but there have been at least a couple rescue stories I've read on forums where the older snakes that normally would be long past their growth stages going through massive growth spurts like a younger snake.

It's been awhile, so I may be missing some pieces of information, but that's the general idea.

[eminart]

There have been people who rescued 7-9 year old snakes that were stunted, and attained a massive growth spurt in their care with proper nutrition. I unfortunately don't know any key words, but there have been at least a couple rescue stories I've read on forums where the older snakes that normally would be long past their growth stages going through massive growth spurts like a younger snake.

It's been awhile, so I may be missing some pieces of information, but that's the general idea.


You may be right, but, like I said, I wasn't able to find much actual scientific info on the subject. I've heard stories that are the exact opposite of yours. So, who knows. At any rate, even if I wanted him to be the largest BCI known to man, I'd still want to grow him slowly. That seems to be the recommendation of the boa experts.

[bigsnakegirl785]

You may be right, but, like I said, I wasn't able to find much actual scientific info on the subject. I've heard stories that are the exact opposite of yours. So, who knows. At any rate, even if I wanted him to be the largest BCI known to man, I'd still want to grow him slowly. That seems to be the recommendation of the boa experts.

Indeed! Slower growth is healthier growth. :) Sometimes they grow faster despite your efforts, though. haha Once he gets into his second year you should notice more growth. They grow more during the period between 1 and 2 years of age, and their feeding schedules (the amount of time between meals) should taper off with age, too.

Unfortunately, snakes are a highly under-studied group of animals, and with their longevity things like if they will put on a growth spurt after being stunted, or if less food during their growing years will keep them small, etc. could take a very long time to find out. So most of our knowledge comes from breeders and fellow keepers, however unscientific until more scientific studies are done.

[Wingbeats]

Slower growth is healthier growth?

Sorry to randomly plop in on the discussion, but I'm new to snake-keeping and I hadn't heard this before. Why would growing more slowly initially be healthier? And how does one do this? (I'm assuming slowing down feeding or whatnot?) Does this apply to all boas, such as epicrates? :)

/torrent of questions

[bigsnakegirl785]

Slower growth is healthier growth?

Sorry to randomly plop in on the discussion, but I'm new to snake-keeping and I hadn't heard this before. Why would growing more slowly initially be healthier? And how does one do this? (I'm assuming slowing down feeding or whatnot?) Does this apply to all boas, such as epicrates? :)

/torrent of questions

When I say that, I don't mean underfeeding them. I mean giving them a more natural, slower growth by using a more conservative feeding schedule. I also mean that power feeding, for any snake or reptile species, is extremely unhealthy and can lower life expectancy.

For boa constrictors especially, a much healthier grow pattern looks like this: 2'-3' at 1 year, 3'-4' at 2 years and 5'-5.5' at 3 years, with them reaching 6'+ in their later years of 4-6 years old. That growth will look much different for a "dwarf" boa constrictor, with them growing much slower and staying much smaller. They can also be a little smaller or a little bigger than those ranges and still be healthy as long as they are fed properly. After all, snakes all grow at their own rate. :) The feeding regimen can also be adjusted a bit depending on your individual.

A feeding regimen for slow-growing a boa looks like this:

Up to 1 year old: every 7-10 days
1-3 years old: 10-14 days
3+ years old: every 3-6 weeks

I've been using the above schedule for my BRB for about half the time I've had him, and he seems to be doing well. He's not underweight or overweight, and he's got very very good muscle tone. He's growing steadily and is about the same size as my BCI was at a year, although the BRB is about 9-10 months old. So I'd say he's growing well, and is about where you'd expect him to be despite being fed slightly less often.

[trailblazer295]

I've heard from various sources that snakes keeping growing until they die. Now of course a young snake isn't going to grow the same rate as 20yr old. But also I doubt snake keepers are measuring the length of a 10yr old to 15 20 etc to see if they gained a few inches. To be honest would anyone of us notice our 6ft+ snake gained a few inches over a decade, of course not. By that age and size you aren't measuring that. I haven't even seen many measure weight at the size which is more important from my limited knowledge then just length. Breeding aside most don't weigh their snakes unless they go on a hunger strike and are weighing to monitor health and weight loss. Which means it's very likely snakes do keep growing slowly and we simply don't notice and because you see them on a regular basis you don't notice the change.

[eminart]

I've heard from various sources that snakes keeping growing until they die. Now of course a young snake isn't going to grow the same rate as 20yr old. But also I doubt snake keepers are measuring the length of a 10yr old to 15 20 etc to see if they gained a few inches. To be honest would anyone of us notice our 6ft+ snake gained a few inches over a decade, of course not. By that age and size you aren't measuring that. I haven't even seen many measure weight at the size which is more important from my limited knowledge then just length. Breeding aside most don't weigh their snakes unless they go on a hunger strike and are weighing to monitor health and weight loss. Which means it's very likely snakes do keep growing slowly and we simply don't notice and because you see them on a regular basis you don't notice the change.

Yes, it is a well-known fact that snakes continue growing throughout their lives. Actually, as far as I know, all reptiles do this. They just don't grow nearly as quickly once they reach adulthood.

[Wingbeats]

Huh, thanks for the answer! I've been feeding every 5 days so far...probably no harm in going to a 7-day schedule for my little lady RB then :) (with the nice side effect of lowering cost of food, hahaha)

[Snakesitter]

And less poop to clean. ;-)

I feed my baby rainbows weekly, juvies every other week, and adults every third week.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Imo I don't believe snakes grow their entire lives. There have been no studies on it that I have ever been able to find. With no scientific proof, I'm not gonna believe it. Shedding =/= growth. They shed to replace dead skin cells as they get older.

As much as personal experience is worth, my bp hasn't grown even a millimeter since he was 2-3 years old. He's now turning 9.

[eminart]

Silver spoons and snake body sizes: prey availability early in life influences long-term growth rates of free-ranging pythons - Madsen - 2008 - Journal of Animal Ecology - Wiley Online Library (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2656.2000.00477.x/full)

Large snakes may offer good model systems in this respect. They exhibit indeterminate growth through their (potentially long) life (Andrews 1982 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2656.2000.00477.x/full#b4)), and a single population of such species thus contains individuals of a very wide range of body sizes (e.g. Fitch 1999 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2656.2000.00477.x/full#b14)). In the present study we present data on growth of a large tropical snake, the water python (Liasis fuscus) and discuss how annual variation in prey availability affects individual, year-to-year variation in growth and ultimately adult snake body sizes.

[eminart]

double post

[bigsnakegirl785]

Silver spoons and snake body sizes: prey availability early in life influences long-term growth rates of free-ranging pythons - Madsen - 2008 - Journal of Animal Ecology - Wiley Online Library (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2656.2000.00477.x/full)

From what I could gather, that article is saying the availability of prey in younger life will allow them to grow for longer. Meaning, in the wild they have periods of famine, and to make up for those periods of famine, they continue to grow late into their lives (or throughout their lives). What it does not discuss is what happens when a snake has plenty of food available steadily throughout their lives with no famine periods.

What that could show is that a snake is set to reach a pre-determined length, and if the famines did not allow them to reach that size, they will continue growing during the feast periods until they reach that size. Which may or may not take their entire lives.

This does not support that snakes grow their entire lives, just that under certain conditions they may.

[eminart]

The article actually says they experience indeterminate growth.

indeterminate growth | biology | Britannica.com (http://www.britannica.com/science/indeterminate-growth)

[bigsnakegirl785]

The article actually says they experience indeterminate growth.

indeterminate growth | biology | Britannica.com (http://www.britannica.com/science/indeterminate-growth)

I'm...really doubtful a dictionary definition supports what you're saying. They can get facts wrong, and say that snakes are poisonous rather than venomous. Although the words grammatically are interchangeable, biologically venomous and poisonous are different.

Not to mention the definition almost guaranteed to be taken out of context.

[eminart]

I'm...really doubtful a dictionary definition supports what you're saying. They can get facts wrong, and say that snakes are poisonous rather than venomous. Although the words grammatically are interchangeable, biologically venomous and poisonous are different.

Not to mention the definition almost guaranteed to be taken out of context.

But, I just linked a scientific study, with sources, that states the snakes they're discussing exhibit indeterminate growth. Who are you saying got the definition wrong?

They exhibit indeterminate growth through their (potentially long) life (Andrews 1982 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2656.2000.00477.x/full#b4)),

[bigsnakegirl785]

But, I just linked a scientific study, with sources, that states the snakes they're discussing exhibit indeterminate growth. Who are you saying got the definition wrong?

That is one sentence taken out of the rest of the article. The article studied animals in the wild with periods of famine, and even said in the main article that prey availability affects growth. They may be considering the potential to grow their entire lives as having indeterminate growth, or maybe I misunderstood some points, but as I discussed above what I read was very different from saying they have indeterminate growth.

What happens when a snake has plenty of food throughout their lives, with no period of famine?

[trailblazer295]

What happens when a snake has plenty of food throughout their lives, with no period of famine?

Such a long term scientific study couldn't be done in the wild as nature doesn't have a buffet of endless supply of meals at regular intervals. I get the point you're trying to make, see both sides of the coin and compare results but such an environment couldn't be done in the wild and conducting a long term study with captive animals, to get a animal base of enough animals would be extremely hard to coordinate as you'd be dealing with many different private keepers.

[psychocircus]

I believe growth can be continuous for around a decade (and again a very slowed rate). There have also been several cases of underfed animals growing significant amounts several years into their lifespans. If growth is continuous for 15+ years it would be so negligible that it isn't significant. While the stories say continued growth, the tape measures do not.

Note, I used the word believe. IME there isn't much scientific information regarding the topic.

[Mikoh4792]

If growth is continuous for 15+ years it would be so negligible that it isn't significant. While the stories say continued growth, the tape measures do not.

+1

How much growth do we see.. is it enough to even matter?

[eminart]

I don't think it's a huge deal either way. We know snakes don't grow a LOT once they reach maturity. But, I thought it was a generally accepted fact that reptiles can and often do grow thoughout their lives, however little it may be. All of the articles I've read, including the peer-reviewed one I linked above, seem to be under the same impression.

[Snakesitter]

I don't think it's a huge deal either way. We know snakes don't grow a LOT once they reach maturity. But, I thought it was a generally accepted fact that reptiles can and often do grow thoughout their lives, however little it may be. All of the articles I've read, including the peer-reviewed one I linked above, seem to be under the same impression.

+1 this was my understanding as well. I know, for example, it's certainly true of my waistline. ;-)

[toddnbecka]

It seems to me that the snake must be growing if it's still shedding skin. otherwise what would be the purpose? A snake that hasn't eaten for weeks or even months will continue to shed regularly. It may lose some mass converting stored fat to energy but still grows longer, even if not significantly.

[bigsnakegirl785]

I believe growth can be continuous for around a decade (and again a very slowed rate). There have also been several cases of underfed animals growing significant amounts several years into their lifespans. If growth is continuous for 15+ years it would be so negligible that it isn't significant. While the stories say continued growth, the tape measures do not.

Note, I used the word believe. IME there isn't much scientific information regarding the topic.

That's where my theory that they grow to pre-determined lengths come from. If they're set to grow to a certain length, they will reach it as fast as their food supply allows them to.

What my point more lies towards is measurable growth. Growth that can be measured in centimeters or millimeters or inches, etc. over years, I'm not really worried about micrometers or anything like that. Every living thing my knowledge can grow in micrometers, it's a by-product of replacing tissue.