two face pacman morph

[jossh27]

I was messing around on the all powerful interwebs and came across this cool looking guy. Apparently it was bred at the frog ranch. Is there anywhere else that had come up with a sweet morph like, or similar to this.... Or am i completely naive and this was photo shopped?

[prairiepanda]

It's not a morph that can be inherited. It's a chimera. This occurs when multiple fertilized eggs fuse. If you took gene samples from each half of this frog, they would be different. I've seen many chimeric mice, tarantulas, and salamanders, but this is the first frog of the sort I've seen!

[prairiepanda]

Another thing I'd like to add is that having a perfect half-and-half chimera like this is the most common, because it makes the polarity mechanisms of each genome happy and reduces developmental conflicts, but it is possible to see a random distribution of the genomes. Here's a couple pictures(not mine!) that I dug up:
http://www.caudata.org/forum/attachments/f46-beginner-newt-salamander-axolotl-help-topics/f48-axolotls-ambystoma-mexicanum/f62-axolotl-gallery/31277d1370261521-my-wonderful-chimera-3-p6032215.jpg
Another half-and-half chimera. In animals with asymmetrical organs, the internal distribution of each genome can vary.
http://www.youpet.com/graphics/Chimera.jpg
This dog is more random. But still, the genes in the black-furred parts and the tan-furred parts will be different. Hard to tell, but it looks like that all-black forepaw might be larger than the all-tan one? It's quite possible.

It's also possible for a chimera's sex organs to produce gametes from both genomes, especially in animals with symmetrical paired sex organs where each genome can have its own. Their offspring would not be chimeric, however. They would inherit genes from one genome or the other, and not both, unless another egg fusion happened!

[Minkness]

Crazy stuff! I kinda want that dog....lol

Are their any physical issues? Like organs not working and such?

[prairiepanda]

Crazy stuff! I kinda want that dog....lol

Are their any physical issues? Like organs not working and such?

The eggs are fused before they become determinate, so as long as both complete genomes are free of defects they should both put out the same developmental hormones and direct overall development normally. For example, once one cell has been determined to become a liver, no other cells should be given that determination, so there should be one liver with one genome throughout, healthy and functional. I imagine problems could arise if egg cells fused a bit late and perhaps a vital organ, such as a heart, is doubled, but the embryo wouldn't mature if that were the case. Also, if the two genomes involved were incompatible for some reason, such as mismatched blood types, development would be halted before it became anything.

[jossh27]

Absolutely magnificent. Have you bred the said salamanders and tarantula?

[that1guy]

That's an awesome pacman.

[prairiepanda]

Absolutely magnificent. Have you bred the said salamanders and tarantula?

I have not(haven't owned any chimeras myself) but I imagine chimeras that combine multiple morphs might be useful for breeders because it would be like 2 animals in one, if their paired sex organs turn out to each carry different genomes. As I noted before, offspring couldn't inherit genes from both genomes in the chimera, but in something that produces many offspring at once like frogs, salamanders, snakes etc, you could get a mix as if 3 parents were involved in the breeding(assuming 1 chimera with 2 distinct genomes and 1 normal parent to pair it with). Could you imagine how much a chimeric ball python would go for? I've never heard of one happening, but if it did exist it ought to cost at least as much as both morphs combined if it was proven to produce gametes of both morphs.

[jossh27]

That would be insane. And imagine if it WAS hereditary.. Big money for those snakes. And who wouldn't want a albino regular visual pied. Haha

[prairiepanda]

That would be insane. And imagine if it WAS hereditary.. Big money for those snakes. And who wouldn't want a albino regular visual pied. Haha

Hmm your mention of pied makes me realize that chimeras could mess up breeding projects just as easily as they can enhance them! If you have an asymmetrical chimera between say a leucy and a normal, it could be sold as pied and not produce any pied babies! Worse, it could produce all normals!

[shaunyboy]

interesting thread....

thanks for sharing folks



cheers shaun

[jossh27]

Hmm your mention of pied makes me realize that chimeras could mess up breeding projects just as easily as they can enhance them! If you have an asymmetrical chimera between say a leucy and a normal, it could be sold as pied and not produce any pied babies! Worse, it could produce all normals!

That would be very unfortunate. i wouldn't ever breed ANYTHING.. i have no interest in it, or have the time and money to invest into breeding. lol i just want a frog that looks like that... a snake would be even cooler

[jossh27]

whats the likely-hood of two fertilized eggs fusing together in frogs? is this more common than i think?

[reptiledude987]

That would be very unfortunate. i wouldn't ever breed ANYTHING.. i have no interest in it, or have the time and money to invest into breeding. lol i just want a frog that looks like that... a snake would be even cooler
You say you have no intrest in breeding anything now. give it time and I'd be willing to bet that one day you will get the itch to be able to say that you paired something and this is one of the babies oyu produced. I suspect one day the time will come.

[jossh27]

You say you have no intrest in breeding anything now. give it time and I'd be willing to bet that one day you will get the itch to be able to say that you paired something and this is one of the babies oyu produced. I suspect one day the time will come.

possibly... but as of right now, i highly doubt it.

[Minkness]

Lol.....I used to say the same thing! Now I have a breeding trio of leos, and soon to be 2 pairs of very different cresties lol.

And very possibly (years down the line) maybe hognose snakes! =D

[prairiepanda]

whats the likely-hood of two fertilized eggs fusing together in frogs? is this more common than i think?

The chances of it happening in any animal are extremely low, but you'll see it far more often in animals like frogs which produce a large number of offspring at once simply because of their great numbers. If you think about it, even if it was a 1 in a million chance for any animal(hypothetically), you'd see more chimeric frogs than dogs, because frogs are more prolific and will have many more millions of babies than dogs over time. I did say that I've never seen a chimeric frog before, but truthfully I would expect it to be as common as it is in salamanders etc. but probably goes unnoticed because of limited morphs in the frog world. I mean, you could pass by a chimeric common wood frog and not know it because it might look the same as any other.

As for breeding... Well, I always like to see people saying they don't have time/space/resources for breeding because it shows that you're really thinking about the consequences. But if you're passionate about these animals you'll probably be tempted ;) When one of my virgin female gecko's eggs candled fertile(just one out of many duds), I was forced into a position of having to set up an incubator and consider the fate of the baby(it's still developing in the incubator, got a couple months left), I discovered that this is something I really want to do. So I went and got a male for my girl! Gotta fatten everyone up before breeding though.

[jossh27]

What would you do with the babies though?

[prairiepanda]

What would you do with the babies though?

Nice thing about gargoyle geckos is that each clutch only consists of two eggs, and there's usually about a month between clutches during laying season. They can produce up to 20 eggs in a year, but it's more realistic to expect 10 or 12. Since the babies come out in a slow trickle rather than all at once, and I only have one pair to breed, I shouldn't have an issue between local classifieds and pet stores. 2 nearby pet stores expressed interest when I mentioned it, and I know of a local breeder who has no problem selling around 120 babies a year mostly through local classifieds. So I don't think rehoming the babies will be an issue. If I need to keep some for a long time, though, they require very little time/space/money commitment to maintain so I'm prepared for that possibility as well.

I certainly wouldn't be prepared to breed snakes or tarantulas, though, that's for sure! As much as I would like to.

[jossh27]

Good luck with the breeding and the solo incubating egg :)

[Albert Clark]

Thanks guys, the information and education was greatly appreciated!

[jossh27]

I'm with you... I definitely learned a lot from this! Thanks to my panda friend from the west. :)