Well folks...it looks like tomorrow is the day...

[MDT]

Looks like FWS will be announcing their decision tomorrow regarding large constrictors to add to the Lacey Act (Boa constrictors, Retics, and Anacondas)...this is going to be a huge blow to the hobby.

Hope for the best, but I fear the worst decision, based on bias and fueled by hysteria. This is definitely not an issue north of Florida, but the whole US will be affected. The wing-nuts at FWS won't address the fact that feral cats do more damage to native wildlife than do non-native species, but hey, why let logic get in the way.

Hopefully USARK has a hail-Mary?

[Minkness]

=/

Not cool....fingers crossed...

[dave himself]

I really hope this turns out well for you guys across the pond

[PsychoSnake]

kingsnake blog Kingsnake.com Blog - Report: USFWS to add boas, reticulated pythons, anacondas to invasive list (http://www.kingsnake.com/blog/archives/2740-Report-USFWS-to-add-boas,-reticulated-pythons,-anacondas-to-invasive-list.html)

Doesn't look good at all.

[toddnbecka]

Hey now, I'm all for adding more snakes to the invasive list. You should see all the non-native dog/cat/small child eaters frozen in my back yard now. Come the spring thaw I'll be up to my eyeballs in deadly monsters the neighbors turned loose. Backfired on one house though, the snakes ate their owners and took it over for a breeding den. And then
...oops gotta go, the mothership is here for me now...

[Shann]

I feel sick. I graduate this semester, and there is no future for my intended career in my current state. I love my boa like most people love a dog. I can't even begin to think of what this will mean.

[Little Wise Owl]

Wow... The Boa Contrictor? Really? Unreal.

[bigsnakegirl785]

This is terrible news. It seems the only laws and regulations that can be passed are on the American people. Organizations get free reign. It was bad news as soon as the Constrictor Rule was passed, allowing them to forego Congress. I'm really hoping for good news in a few hours, but I'm doubtful.

Not to mention at least boa constrictors and retics have been proven to be non-invasive.

[Ballchris]

Dan Ashe just announced that Reticulated pythons and three anacondas will be listed as injurious under the Lacey Act. This is unacceptable and extreme overreach by FWS. USARK will release an email newsletter with our future actions ASAP. This is a rule finalization, according to Ashe.

There it is folks, a huge blow to our beloved hobby, while boa's are right now off the list how long before they attack them or ball python, or carpet pythons again this isnt right I say we protest something we need to do something my heart has never been more broken sad dark day as a reptile lover.

[Minkness]

This law will just mean alot more people will be breaking the law. I don't see people following it just like horses should be vaccinated before crossing state lines but usually aren't. And some people who own animals aren't ones to watch the laws too closely so will probably do it out of just not knowing about it. =/

Sadness....true sadness.....

[reptiledude987]

So with this law does it grandfather in people who already have animals falling under the restriction? I imagine breeders of them would be impacted far more than the average person who keeps them as a pet. Is this impacting all states? If so I'd be curious to see how many are still for sale at upcoming expos.

[Sublimeballs]

Let me clear some stuff up for everyone. The ban is only on interstate trade. We can all still keep our animals but if you move to a different state with your pet you've commited a felony. If you're a breeder and sell to someone out of state you e commited a felony. So for those of us that have been breeding Retics or have been building a collection to breed you can only sell them in your state. There has already been several people completley doing their whole collections, the Reticulated python world is about to change in a huge way. I know of a few big breeders that no longer have a means of income.

Now... Usark is in the process of suing the federal government over the original listing of the Burms, rocks, and yellows(and now the other Annies and Retics). We have facts and science on our side.... But that might not mean much of anything. The government has shown they will do as they please and make up whatever "facts" are needed to complete their agenda.

Don't kid yourselves any of you... They are out to end our hobby. This isn't going to end at giants! This will spread further and further into the reptile comunity until they destroy us. HSUS and USFWS are out to end the reptile industry. If you care about the animals you keep now is the time to fight for your rights.

[Derek1]

Don't kid yourselves any of you... They are out to end our hobby. This isn't going to end at giants! This will spread further and further into the reptile comunity until they destroy us. HSUS and USFWS are out to end the reptile industry. If you care about the animals you keep now is the time to fight for your rights.


This^ A strong lobby will be needed. Which I doubt the pro reptile industry has, but the opposition does have.

[jjhill001]

Large pythons are terrible for the Florida ecosystem and damaging to local wildlife. This is a fact. The only problem is that this law was released 20-35 years too late because breeding populations are already in Florida and this law will do nothing to fix the issue. Congratulations government on accomplishing absolutely nothing. Then again what were you guys expecting the government hasn't done anything useful since the Clinton administration.

[CrotalusR#1]

This is only going to make the underground "black market" erupt. If people really want there snakes they will make it happen, they will find ways with disregard to the law. That's only going to make things worse.... I almost can't help but chuckle when I hear these outrageous claims on what these "man eaters" and "monsters" are capable of, truly asinine.

[jjhill001]

Lol price on these guys just shot up. If you wanted one ever you better get one now.

[Jrich]

Feral cats though....

[bigsnakegirl785]

Large constrictors are the least of Florida's problems.

[Minkness]

I wouldn't say the least...but hardly so bad that it's all of America's problem x.x

[bigsnakegirl785]

The pythons and boas in the Everglades are some of the least invasive species living there, and pose very little harm to the people who live there. Most of the Burms died off in that cold snap a few years ago, and I've never heard of any real reports of them breeding. Sure, they've found females with eggs in them, but were they viable? Did they survive long enough to hatch? Most of the snakes I've heard them catch were adults and large subadults, haven't heard of any babies being caught or any nests found.

[FWK]

The pythons and boas in the Everglades are some of the least invasive species living there, and pose very little harm to the people who live there. Most of the Burms died off in that cold snap a few years ago, and I've never heard of any real reports of them breeding. Sure, they've found females with eggs in them, but were they viable? Did they survive long enough to hatch? Most of the snakes I've heard them catch were adults and large subadults, haven't heard of any babies being caught or any nests found.

Burms are breeding in the Everglades. They are well established and are likely impossible to remove other than by the forces of nature herself (there is legitimate concern the Everglades will be under the sea by the end of the century, if the sea level continues to rise at its current rate). That said there is no question that Pythons and Boa constrictors are entirely incapable of becoming established anywhere else in the North America (plenty of studies prove this, but HSUS spends a lot of money to bury these studies), and pose virtually no threat to the public. Snakes do not eat people anymore than American Alligators do, although if you harass either there is most definitely a risk of injury or death. This is strictly a Florida issue but HSUS is dumping millions of dollars into media campaigns and their lobby to convince the country otherwise. And given the public's predisposition to dislike reptiles HSUS is having a pretty good time of it.

The topic of invasive species in the Everglades is hotly debated in the field herper circles. The more optimistic like to see the glass as half full, many invasive species (not just large constrictors) have already reached an equilibrium with the indigenous species (and many studies support this point of view. But you guessed it, HSUS spends a lot of money to bury said studies) and enhanced the already astonishing bio-diversity of the Everglades. The glass half empty people know that the Everglades as they knew it is gone and will never be the same.

Here is a link to a thread about the invasive species in the Everglades with pics of baby Burms and great discussion (note that the first post is largely tongue in cheek). (http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20072&hilit)

And a link to HSUS celebrating adding the first of the constrictors to the Lacey Act three years ago. Note that they mention Boa constrictors and Retics are their next targets. (http://www.humanesociety.org/news/press_releases/2012/02/humane_society_02282012.html)

[Minkness]

Don't forget the massive iguanas that fall on people's heads out of trees and attack small children, dogs, and cats.

=/

[themeyers]

and if you think you are safe because your animal is not on this list, think again. they are trying to stop all pet owner ship. and are starting off with the ones that will be "easiest" for them to get. Please donate to usark. and support the fight against this Lacey act. your beloved pets are next.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Burms are breeding in the Everglades. They are well established and are likely impossible to remove other than by the forces of nature herself (there is legitimate concern the Everglades will be under the sea by the end of the century, if the sea level continues to rise at its current rate). That said there is no question that Pythons and Boa constrictors are entirely incapable of becoming established anywhere else in the North America (plenty of studies prove this, but HSUS spends a lot of money to bury these studies), and pose virtually no threat to the public. Snakes do not eat people anymore than American Alligators do, although if you harass either there is most definitely a risk of injury or death. This is strictly a Florida issue but HSUS is dumping millions of dollars into media campaigns and their lobby to convince the country otherwise. And given the public's predisposition to dislike reptiles HSUS is having a pretty good time of it.

The topic of invasive species in the Everglades is hotly debated in the field herper circles. The more optimistic like to see the glass as half full, many invasive species (not just large constrictors) have already reached an equilibrium with the indigenous species (and many studies support this point of view. But you guessed it, HSUS spends a lot of money to bury said studies) and enhanced the already astonishing bio-diversity of the Everglades. The glass half empty people know that the Everglades as they knew it is gone and will never be the same.

Here is a link to a thread about the invasive species in the Everglades with pics of baby Burms and great discussion (note that the first post is largely tongue in cheek). (http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20072&hilit)

And a link to HSUS celebrating adding the first of the constrictors to the Lacey Act three years ago. Note that they mention Boa constrictors and Retics are their next targets. (http://www.humanesociety.org/news/press_releases/2012/02/humane_society_02282012.html)

First news I've heard of real signs of breeding, good to know! As you said, even if they're established they don't really have the ability to survive in the rest of the US, except maybe Hawaii, if they got there?

I'll leave the ecological information up to the experts, as I'm not experienced in this area, but that thread seemed to be rather argumentative, in many cases unnecessarily so, while also talking in circles. It did seem to at least show there are baby Burms in the Florida wild if nothing else, but at least the first page and half the second page left much to be desired, being mostly name-slinging and accusatory with maybe half of it being informative. Perhaps I just need to sit down and dissect the thread a bit better.

I am curious to know, if in a hypothetical situation where Burms and other tropical invasive snakes could actually invade the rest of the US, if the Lacey Act would even be an effective measure to controlling or getting rid of them? It seems an established wild breeding population of an invasive species would not be much affected by stopping transportation into the state?

[reptiledude987]

My question is how they plan to enforce this. If you cross state lines with an animal in your vehicle how would law enforcment even know. I've driven thru the states many times and never encountered a border patrol from one state to the next. At the end of the day it appears to me that people will simply BS their way around this law.

[Minkness]

Bignakegirl has a point...look at the crazy flying carp epidemic!

And as for BSing the law, yeah that will absolutely happen. However, if they start with banning transport, they may ban sales next. It's a trend of history to start 'small' and work your way up with limiting things.

[JWFugle]

So whats next? the law passed it will get in acted soon enough. USARK is supposedly trying to sue against it but who knows how long or how well that will work. :/

I personally plan on calling my states congress and state troopers asking about how or if they plan on enforcing this law and the options we have to overturn it. i know i will probably be put on hold for hours but better than sitting on my hands.

anybody have better numbers to call and people to actually talk to?

[Jrich]

I feel like this is going to create a lot of unintended consequences.

[FWK]

First news I've heard of real signs of breeding, good to know! As you said, even if they're established they don't really have the ability to survive in the rest of the US, except maybe Hawaii, if they got there?

I'll leave the ecological information up to the experts, as I'm not experienced in this area, but that thread seemed to be rather argumentative, in many cases unnecessarily so, while also talking in circles. It did seem to at least show there are baby Burms in the Florida wild if nothing else, but at least the first page and half the second page left much to be desired, being mostly name-slinging and accusatory with maybe half of it being informative. Perhaps I just need to sit down and dissect the thread a bit better.

I am curious to know, if in a hypothetical situation where Burms and other tropical invasive snakes could actually invade the rest of the US, if the Lacey Act would even be an effective measure to controlling or getting rid of them? It seems an established wild breeding population of an invasive species would not be much affected by stopping transportation into the state?

You have to look past the flaming, those guys all know each other very well and that's just the way they communicate. There are countless threads on that forum on a huge variety of subjects those guys discuss with just as much energy. There is a lot of information and many points of view offered in the thread, and there are many more threads on the same subjects elsewhere on the forum. Keep in mind that it is a field herping forum, many diehard field herpers do not necessarily approve of people keeping reptiles and may even support HSUS. The subject of herpetoculture is often hotly debated as well.

I don't think the Lacey act would have much effect in your hypothetical situation, particularity with animals like Burms and Retics that are no doubt already kept in just about every state of the continental U.S. Hawaii is a different story, there are no snakes native to Hawaii and it is illegal to bring any snakes in. Isolated ecosystems such as islands are very vulnerable to invasive species of just about any kind. A bit of research into what feral cats have done to countless island ecosystems around the globe is proof enough of that, not to mention the Brown Tree Snake disaster in Guam. Now in a case like Brown Tree Snakes, which are not popular in the pet trade, the Lacey Act is actually a viable form of control. Brown Tree Snakes have been on the Lacey Act for a long time now, though I haven't been able to find out exactly when they were added. They were the only reptile on the Lacey Act before the constrictors were added three years ago. I don't know if Brown Tree Snakes would be a real threat to establish in the continental U.S. or if they were just banned as a knee-jerk reaction to the Guam situation. But I do know the constrictors were not added because they could become established in North America outside of Florida, they were added because "animal rights" groups (most notably HSUS) threw a lot of money at it. So much money that the FWS overlooked legitimate research and based its decision to add the constrictors primarily on this report (http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2009/1202/pdf/OF09-1202.pdf), a report that has been widely discredited. There is hope still, USARKs lawsuit against the FWS has science on its side. The opposition only has millions of dollars donated by mislead bleeding hearts who thought their money was going to help the suffering puppys and kittens in the TV commercials. The law is blind to money, right?

Feral cats though....

I feel like this is going to create a lot of unintended consequences.

Agreed, and agreed.

[bigsnakegirl785]

I think some people were also talking about contacting celebrities who are known snake keepers or support the reptile trade. I feel getting into contact with a few of them and asking them to plug the fight, we'd get a lot of much-needed support. What do you all think, and how would we go about contacting them?

You have to look past the flaming, those guys all know each other very well and that's just the way they communicate. There are countless threads on that forum on a huge variety of subjects those guys discuss with just as much energy. There is a lot of information and many points of view offered in the thread, and there are many more threads on the same subjects elsewhere on the forum. Keep in mind that it is a field herping forum, many diehard field herpers do not necessarily approve of people keeping reptiles and may even support HSUS. The subject of herpetoculture is often hotly debated as well.

I don't think the Lacey act would have much effect in your hypothetical situation, particularity with animals like Burms and Retics that are no doubt already kept in just about every state of the continental U.S. Hawaii is a different story, there are no snakes native to Hawaii and it is illegal to bring any snakes in. Isolated ecosystems such as islands are very vulnerable to invasive species of just about any kind. A bit of research into what feral cats have done to countless island ecosystems around the globe is proof enough of that, not to mention the Brown Tree Snake disaster in Guam. Now in a case like Brown Tree Snakes, which are not popular in the pet trade, the Lacey Act is actually a viable form of control. Brown Tree Snakes have been on the Lacey Act for a long time now, though I haven't been able to find out exactly when they were added. They were the only reptile on the Lacey Act before the constrictors were added three years ago. I don't know if Brown Tree Snakes would be a real threat to establish in the continental U.S. or if they were just banned as a knee-jerk reaction to the Guam situation. But I do know the constrictors were not added because they could become established in North America outside of Florida, they were added because "animal rights" groups (most notably HSUS) threw a lot of money at it. So much money that the FWS overlooked legitimate research and based its decision to add the constrictors primarily on this report (http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2009/1202/pdf/OF09-1202.pdf), a report that has been widely discredited. There is hope still, USARKs lawsuit against the FWS has science on its side. The opposition only has millions of dollars donated by mislead bleeding hearts who thought their money was going to help the suffering puppys and kittens in the TV commercials. The law is blind to money, right?

A good point, I'll sit down a read it a bit more thoroughly. There was still a decent amount of conversation, just seemed saturated with bickering the first time around, so I'll keep those points in mind as I re-read it.

I didn't think so. I have heard that the Lacey Act has worked with certain species, but it was never explained how, so that explanation was great. I too hope that science will eventually win over the FWS, although I feel it may take some years. But that may just be me being pessimistic, although as you said, money talks. We just need to really push them and get as many people outside our hobby to help as possible imo. Compared to the people against us, we have a very small voice.

[MDT]

here's the rub...the average voter, and that applies to the people who vote on legislation too (local, state, federal levels...) are uninformed. you've seen the shows where they send a camera out and ask questions like "who's the vice president?" dismal failure rate...and that's on college campuses. try asking something that (if you are an American) you should know, like "what are the 3 branches of government and how do they function?"....blank stares. but you ask who kim kardashian is doing....you'll get close to 100% correct answers every time.....

my point is this....when presented with the choice of voting for someone keeping big giant (and thanks to the media, animal planet, etc .,"man eating") pythons versus siding with the "humane" society (i mean, c'mon....they're humane...it says so in their name for crying out loud....sad puppy eyes, sarah mclachlan and stuff....)the average, uninformed American voter won't have a friggin' clue about facts....our legislators won't take the time to read the facts or educate themselves (Obamacare anyone?)....honestly, i'm not sure we really stand a chance. i want to be wrong...please let me be wrong. unfortunately, a large percentage of people today are more concerned about their new cell phone and entertainment tonight than with most things that require discernment.