won't eat, other feeding options?

[Laughingman868]

Hey guys, I posted a few weeks ago about my gtp I had just gotten. To make a long story short The snake would not eat which I wasn't too worried about because I assumed he was stressed. Next it sounded like he was coming down with an RI which I also wasn't surprised about as the weekend of the show was really cold and raining so that plus being moved could have caused it.

I didn't visit the vet because there was no mucus or bubbling but did try the F10 trick and he isn't holding his head up anymore but I still can't tell whether he's wheezing or letting out a small hiss. On snakes with RI's, do they wheeze constantly while just perched and breathing normally? he only sounds odd when I mist him or open the tank which leads me to believe its just a small hiss.

Anyway, he just shed two days ago and the RI, if thats what is was, seems gone and he still hasn't eaten, I have had him for a month now with no luck. He just hides his head or tries to get away. Can I try a chick? I also contemplated putting a decently plump green anole in there to just hang out for a couple days to see if he eats that at some point during the night. Any suggestions?

[yeloowtang]

hey !!
unless I missed it, i looked up your other post but couldn't find the age of the GTP !!
I'm thinking it's a baby, but knowing the age would help..
so here's a few pointers to help no matter how old it is.

1-when in shed , they usually won't eat untill it's done.

2- try and get the feeding records from the breeder, a good practice with GTPs and ETBs
is to not feed more then 3 meals and wait for defecation.getting the poop chart too would help :)

3-double check you set up ,you want multiple perches at diferent hights and size, temps with a hot spot of 86 with a heat gradiant lower in the cage,humidity you want to spray in the morning to get it at 80/90% then let it dry out to 50% over the day

4-only feed at night when the lights have been out for a while..you should see your GTP hunting and inspecting it's cage.
If not, it may still be adapting, but keep a close eye on it and try not to disturb it too much.if it never comes out and play, double check the parameters.. if using a heat lamp !! make sure it's not too hot and dry, these heat lamps aren't the best of choices for this species, they tend to bring all the problems you want to avoid (too much heat and dry)
feeding at night is best for a few reason, the obvious is they are nocturnal and hunt at night.
the second reason!! is in time , if handling the GTP, it will associate handling at day time and not be expecting food, will make your experience with it more fun :)

all this said , it still doesn't help you if it's not eating..
if you can find out when it's last meal was and how many, this would let you know if it's simply not hungry or if you have to start worrying..
when it's in feeding mode, try to feed the exact same thing the breeder was.
if live pinky , then go with that and try to switch it over later once it's established in it's new home.you want to avoid too many changes at the same time, especialy if it's a little picky. new home, new husbandry, new food item etc etc keep it as near identical as the breeder as possible.

if we go with the idea that it's not sick and doesn't have a RI
all you can do now is wait a while so it adapts . the breeder should have the feeding records, shedding records, poop records..
if the snake has had mutiple meals, you are safe for a while, normally they aren't sold before having eaten 5 to 7 meals to be considered established.. if this is the case no worries..
if it's only had 2 meals since birth ??? then we need to keep track of it closely..
you may need to assist feed if it doesn't eat for you after another couple of weeks..
I won't get into details about this until the time comes, i'm pretty sure things will go smoothly.
if not , don't worry,it's easy to assist feed them, just takes patience and TLC :)

just a quick note about the hissssing, they do tend to hiss when bothered, this is diferent from weezing when breathing..try to pay attention when it breaths. sometimes it could just be a small piece of shed stuck in the nostrill, pay extreme close attention to the nose and mouth for mucus.. look at the tongue, if it's always sticking together, that's not a good sign and you will need to have that looked at, excess mucus will cause the tongue to stick. doesn't mean it's sick, but it's a good pointer that it may be..

hope this helps

best of luck and keep us posted

[Laughingman868]

first, thanks for the detailed response yellowtang its greatly appreciated. So to answer a few questions I had left out earlier which I'm sorry for.

I was told that the snake was about 2, it seems correct as he looks about the size of a few I have seen that were a year and a half so id say thats a close estimate.

I spray the tank daily and it gets up to about 82% humidity max and dries out then I spray the next night heavily again. I may mist him directly a few times a day though. I had the thermostat set at 86 then raised it to 89 to help combat the RI but have since lowered it back to 86. He has plenty of foliage, too much I feel, at times I can barely see him in there lol. I have also covered the front of the tank with newspaper until he acclimates to the new environment.

The breeder usually fed on saturday but the weekend of the expo he didn't so it has been 4 weeks and this saturday it will be 5 since he has last eaten.

As far as the RI goes, his tongue looks good to go and there are no signs of mucus outside of the mouth but I haven't looked in yet only because he is pretty timid and freaked out when I had to hold his head once because his nostril was clogged with something. the breeder also said he fed hoppers so I tried them first but nothing. The only thing I haven't done was leaving a live or dead mouse in a dark sterile tub for awhile. I have tried all the different methods of feeding that i found inline with no luck so I stopped all together because I didn't wanna stress him more.

Im sure he will be fine but I just wanted my first chondro to be problem free and a good feeder and so far I have the opposite of both lol.

[Laughingman868]

again, no idea why they load sideways when showing as right side up on my desktop

[yeloowtang]

sweet set up :)

the fact that you GTP is 2 years old takes away alot of the stress of not feeding right away... the change of enviroment may take a while before it gets used to it.. so a few weeks more to even a month + is no problem at all.. if the previous owner had it since baby and it's never had to adapt elswhere !!! it just needs time..

also the 89 is not a problem, if the 89 is near the heat source but your getting the 86 ish
near the area the GTP is perching when on the hot side, you're ok.
as long as it has the possibility to move over to a colder spot if it wants to, all good..

one of mine that i had in the past (still regret selling it) decided one day to just stop eating F/T just out of the blue ?? waited and tried for what seemed an enternity :)
then one day i got a live mouse, took it 20 seconds to catch it, then had to feed live for a long time before it switched back..

with GTPs most will go mouse for life, and that's a good plan ..
my self, i had to try rats at some point and they never went back to mice.. rats are way more nutritious then mice, so i would feed smaller..

you have afew options still..
-wait a little and keep trying
-try dipping the head in almost boiling hot water, by the time you whipe it, it will still be Hot but not too hot to get the heat pits tingling :)
-try touching the tip ot the GTPs tail
-try a same/sligthly smaller size rat (smell is different) it could get his attention
-try dipping in chicken broth
-try braining it !! (not fun to do) but it sometimes work
-then finaly a live hopper mouse or wean/adult depending on it's size

I don't recommend leaving anything bigger than a hopper/wean in with no supervision..
a hooper is safe but a near adult mouse could hurt you GTP if it wanted to.
you will notice that the mouse is going to climb all over the vines,perches and even smell the snake :) this often gets them interested..

best of luck..

ohh just taught of something, now i'm sure this is not the case, but i feel it's best to have you look..i'm also sure you knw all about them..
sometimes external parasites (mites) can annoy a snake to the point it won't feed.
if you see it soaking at night and spending lots of time in the water dish.. you may want to have a closer look at it.. pay attention near the head and the heat censor pits,eyes for liitle tinny itsy bitsy balck spots that move and hide under the scales..
easy to treat if you find them, but you want to know asap .
most likely not the case, but might as well rule that out too :)

cheers

steph

[Laughingman868]

hey thanks again, another post packed full of great info!!

So far I have tried:
-small adult mouse, live and freshly killed
-hopper, live and freshly killed
-leaving a hopper in over night and your right it crawled all over, even dangling at times above him but that seemed to just stress him out so I didn't try it again
-rubbing a live and freshly killed mouse on the tail
leaving a freshly killed mouse on the perch overnight

None of this got so much as even a concerned action to see what was going on in his living space, he just tried to hide every time.

Yesterday I put an anole in there and this morning I woke up and he was actually doing the tail curling thing like he was trying to lure something in but he didn't eat it. I then placed him in a dark plastic tub with just the anole for awhile and nothing.

Im almost positive that he doesn't have mites, I have looked at him pretty closely and he seems fine. Other than the strange sound that keeps making me think he has an RI he seems just fine. I may try the braining and chicken broth methods very soon but if those fail then I may just wait a long time until I notice him in a hunting posture in the tank actually looking for food.

[yeloowtang]

it might be as we are suspecting and just needs time to adapt to his new home, or may simply not be hungry.
in this case, just leaving it be for full week before trying again is best, and if refused wait another week, don't try teasing it for more than 10-15 mins if no inetrest is shown..

now :-D lets attack the RI issue...
it's hard to guess wihout seeing or hearing it myself.. so before going anny further with info..
if you do suspect an RI the best course of action would be to find a good herp vet (make sure they know snakes) most vets don't and only go with little experience they touched at vet school regarding exotics..

a very mild RI can go away on it's own with raised temps, but in the majority of cases you will need antibiotics to get trough it.
and the earlier it's caught the better.

the vet should do a complete check up and listen with his scope at the lungs as it's breathing, this is to see if he hears any ubstructions.
next of course will be to open his mouth to see if any mucus is present.
( you could do this at home if you want, it would give you an idea)
if he suspecxts something, he should do a swab and culture to find out what else could be attaching to the RI..

now all this said, the culture, if the vet has experience, the results would tell him witch medication to prescribe.
problem is!!! most times they prescribe before getting the results with the hope that the meds they give is the right one.
there's a few diferent ones.
1-baytril = enroxil = enrofloxin is often given and can do tissue damage/burn like sensation if wrongly administered
2- fortaz I think it's a third gen medication and covers a wider spectrum, it also has slight side effects but is better,if the vets mentions both go with this one.
no harm in asking him about either one, he will see you know what you are talking about and may call on coleagues to get a second oppinion, this also gives you a chance to check his knoledge with herps..
3-a few more meds out there but these are the most comon ones

they will both do the job unless one doesn't cover the virus/bacteria the snake has.
now this of course will all be $$$ and is the course to take if your GTP is in fact sick..

now ( i hope i won't get flamed for this ) if you know what you are doing and have experience, and I CAP the KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING PART :)

there's one place in the USA where you can order baytril 2.5% in a 7ml vial. search (beautiful dragons) most other places you need a vet prescription to get it.
you can get the syringes there too, but these i would recommend a pharmacy get the insulin .3cc 31 gauge needles, the snakes barely feel them going in and makes the job that much easier.

then you need to make sure you're giving the right dosage, for this you need the snakes exact weight.

once all this is confirmed and you are ready..
you must inject the snake with a I M injection, (in the muscle) in the UPPER 1/3 of it's body or at the very least UPPER 1/2.
too low and the meds are filtered out by the liver and are innafective, they can later create liver problems..
it can also be done oraly , but you need bigger dosage and it's not as effective, most of it is digested..
injections with baytril would be 0.?? cc every 48H for a total of 10 injections.
fortaz is usually every72h

injecting about 1/4" off the side of the spine (depends on the size of course) at a 45 deg angle or slightly more going in towards the front between scales.
once in, inject and it will produce a small lump, you can massage that the ease the GTP a litte, then put him back in.
try to inject in diferent areas each time.
shouldn't be the case with a GTP but for bigger snakes, if the dose is bigger than 0.4 it's best to split that up in multiple shots..
NOW DON"T TAKE THIS # FOR GOLD :) but for an idea on a 2 year old GTP
you would be looking in the range of 0.07cc to 0.15cc again this depends on the size, i'm just guessing here to give you an idea.

so with all this said !!
if you have serious doubt that it could have an R I, best not to wait too long before seeking the help from a specialized herp vet.. if it gets out of control, at some point, it's hard and next to impossible to recover from it..

I'm crossing my fingers for you that all is well, that' it's in perfect health and just needs time to adapt :)

sorry for the long read LOL

Steph

[Laughingman868]

I looked up some vets and it looks like the best one is about 15 mins away. quoted 50 for check up, 130 for culture and 50-150 depending on which antibiotics are prescribed. I looked into this weeks ago but haven't taken him because since the 10 days of F10 fogging he no longer raises his head up and he never had any mucus coming out of his mouth to begin with so I'm hoping I was just paranoid or his was a very mild case and he got over it.

I did a bunch of research on the baytril and other medicines and even found dosage charts and how to calculate it based on weight but figured before I ordered it id wait to see. I was going to maybe take him for a culture then if they would prescribe the baytril just get it myself for a little cheaper. Im pretty competent and believe I could handle something like this if I needed to but again I'm really hoping that I don't.

Iv been holding back from looking in his mouth because I figured if he isn't sick whatever progress he has made in calming down and adjusting with be taken a hundred steps right back if I grab him and force his mouth open.

And I don't mind reading the long posts I'm very fortunate to be part of this forum with people like yourself who take the time to write this much in order to help.

[Laughingman868]

I'm telling you what though, this guy does NOT like to be restrained so if I have to hold him down for the shots he will most likely be traumatized and not eat for another month even after getting well lol

[yeloowtang]

how are things going with your GTP :)

has he eaten yet??

[reptiledude987]

Dont know if this was mentioned yet as its quite a long thread. One trick that worked for me to get my baby etb eating was to get an anole and when I would thaw a pinkie I would put the anole to thaw with with the pinkie and the pinkie will pick up the scent of the anole (more natural prey item for them) and she was more inclined to eat. just thought I'd throw that if you havent already tried it.

[Laughingman868]

Hey guys. I did get him to eat. I tried a frozen/thawed mouse that was thawed then put in hot water for a couple mins and it really seemed to get his attention without scaring him with all of the kicking around that the mice do. He took it and ever since then has been pretty aggressive at night lol. I can't even open the cage or he like flings out towards me it's pretty wild. I suppose this is good behavior though since he returns to normal during the day and I can handle him then.

Thanks for all the help guys, I guess every snake is different but I'm actually glad I can use the F/T method, makes my
Life easier.

[yeloowtang]

awesome !! glad it's eating
now you can really enjoy it and not be worried, just remember to not over feed them, they will seem hungry every night, don't cave in to the temptation :) just respect the 10-14 day schedule more on the 14 end and all will go well..

keep us posted

[Laughingman868]

lol i could see my self succumbing to temptation but I will maintain discipline with him. your right though he just ate and he's like eyeballing me and following me with his head as I walk past his tank. Iv never had a snake with a feeding response like his its actually pretty crazy to me.