Rattlesnake killed by feeder squirrel

[megaquake2012]

I was feeding my rattle a squirrel I caught and made sure was not sick with any disease or parasite I fed him to my rattle but to my surprise the squirrel charged at the rattlesnake and did a sort of crocodile death roll and kept biting at it :shocked: before I could intervene my poor rattle got a big hole in his head which sadly got infected he later died :hmm: why did this happen? I thought squirrels were commonly fed to snakes :suspicious:

[EL Ziggy]

Eat or be eaten in a closed environment. Sounds like survival of the fittest. Sometimes the predator becomes the prey. Sorry for your rattler.

[SnoopySnake]

I'm sorry to hear that, but this is a very good example on why frozen thawed is a good idea.

[pet_snake_78]

Did you keep the squirrel as a pet since it lived or ?

[MDT]

And you made sure it was not sick with any disease or parasite how?

[SnoopySnake]

And you made sure it was not sick with any disease or parasite how?

This is exactly what I was wondering...

[SSSSnakes]

WHY? F/T rodents are easily obtained.

[fishingfool]

Sorry for your loss man but now you know.the importance of checking for a feeding responce befor droping a live anamal in for feeding but i can see how with a rattle snake you would think it could at least strike it once even.if it.wasn't hungry and i only have seen squirrels feed to something that could take down a jumbo rat anyways I'm noticeing a lot of injuries. happening beacuse of improper food size i wouldn't feed a rattle snake anythink.much bigger then a medium rat live honestly and i also think the fact you caught a wild squirrel might have played a part in this you caught a wild anamal and put it in with a captive critter and wild tends to be tpugher in the long run sorry for your loss rattlers are awsome snakes

[Stewjoe]

Squirrels are downright aggressive, it's not uncommon for them to attack other animals and when you trap it in a container with a threat it's going to defend itself.

[D Grade]

I'm sorry to hear that, but this is a very good example on why frozen thawed is a good idea.

Amen, this is exactly why my Cali King (let alone any other snake I ever own) will be fed youthenized or F/T. Its simply not worth the risk.

Sucks to hear about this, on that note thank you for not posting pics. These stories that are accompanied with pics are heartbreaking.

[MDT]

So, one post with kind of an odd story...no responses from OP? Seems strange. Further...OP knew about "infection" on snake's head...no treatment mentioned..no vet (don't know what venomous laws are in the Great White North)...just seems weird.

[jjhill001]

There is random posts in this forum with just something stupid that makes it seem like it's there to cause people to get mad. I think it's the same person over and over.

[Dcuccio742]

Your an idiot for feeding a crazy wild animal thats much bigger and has claws and teeth much larger that a rat to your snake thats in an enclosure.thats just asking for trouble and you wonder why a great creature is now dead..

[fishingfool]

I'm ganna go ahead and scream TROLLL

[marvelfreak]

I was feeding my rattle a squirrel I caught and made sure was not sick with any disease or parasite I fed him to my rattle but to my surprise the squirrel charged at the rattlesnake and did a sort of crocodile death roll and kept biting at it :shocked: before I could intervene my poor rattle got a big hole in his head which sadly got infected he later died :hmm: why did this happen? I thought squirrels were commonly fed to snakes :suspicious:
I have been keeping snake for over 20+ years and have never heard of any one feeding squirrels.

I am think troll to.
3113731138

[knox]

Don't feed the trolls, guys. Come on, we are smarter than that on this forum.

[reptiledude987]

So, one post with kind of an odd story...no responses from OP? Seems strange. Further...OP knew about "infection" on snake's head...no treatment mentioned..no vet (don't know what venomous laws are in the Great White North)...just seems weird.
In Canada hots are legal federally so they are legal to import to the country for the sake of zoos and such. However there are no municipal exceptions allowing them to be owned (as far as I could find). I looked into this months back after a chat with Aaron re adding a hot to my collection. After doing some research theres nowhere I could find to have one legally unless you have a zoo type permit. The research I did was primarily for Ont but as far as I remember laws were very similar for the rest of the country.

[yeloowtang]

I agree, and that was my first question when i saw he was from canada..
last i heared , only a few remote places in ONT allowed hots, the rest of Canada ??
i'm in Quebec and they are totaly iilegal here and most other provinces too.

I tend to think Throll as well, who would even think of catching a wild animal to feed a captive snake ??
would never even trust rats,mice from outside !! who know what they ate or desease they can carry..
sad story if this really happen..

[reptiledude987]

I agree, and that was my first question when i saw he was from canada..
last i heared , only a few remote places in ONT allowed hots, the rest of Canada ??
i'm in Quebec and they are totaly iilegal here and most other provinces too.

I tend to think Throll as well, who would even think of catching a wild animal to feed a captive snake ??
would never even trust rats,mice from outside !! who know what they ate or desease they can carry..
sad story if this really happen..
What remote areas of Ont are they legal? I looked and found nothing. I'm moving soon and would be willing to travel to work if legally owning hots was an option. I belive this is a troll as well but hey if usefull info can come of the thread why not?

[yeloowtang]

let me see if i can track that info down, i read about it in another forum not to long ago... some were saying that it may not be long before they too ban them, that it would be best to get them before that so they are granfathered in !!!

haven taid much attention since they are illegal in my province, hell i would like to have a mangrove snake , but the fact they are rear fanged and somewhat venemous, i can't risk it :(

[reptiledude987]

Exactly what I'm thinking. I dont want anything lethal but there are alot of really cool rear fanged species with mild venom like hoggies that I'd love to add to my collection. As far as I know hoggies seem to be the only "exception" to the rule. As there were many for sale at the most recent expo in toronto but there are several similar spesies like the mangroves that fall into a similar catagory.

[Kuamata]

I'm not even in Canada and in the same boat. Kentucky bans all rearfanged 'venomous' species except the hognose. Otherwise I would definitely add a Mangrove.

[reptiledude987]

I'm not even in Canada and in the same boat. Kentucky bans all rearfanged 'venomous' species except the hognose. Otherwise I would definitely add a Mangrove.
This is what I dont get why say hoggies are ok but mangroves arent when theyre both equally "dangerous"???

[Zelg]

Exactly what I'm thinking. I dont want anything lethal but there are alot of really cool rear fanged species with mild venom like hoggies that I'd love to add to my collection. As far as I know hoggies seem to be the only "exception" to the rule. As there were many for sale at the most recent expo in toronto but there are several similar spesies like the mangroves that fall into a similar catagory.


I'm pretty lacking in knowledge when it comes to snakes but my gut reaction to this is wondering why you think that mangroves and hoggies are similar. I mean other than the obvious rear fanged classification.

I'm going to assume that you've read about rear fanged snakes needing to "chew" in their venom as opposed to a viper that injects the venom directly into you in one swift bite. You mention mild venom hoggies but then in your next post, wonder why hoggies are ok but mangroves are not AND stating that they are equally as dangerous.

Again, I'm not the most knowledgeable guy but it sounds like you need to do a lot of reading up on the snakes you're interested in. Like book reading or article reading. Learn a little bit about rear fanged snakes IN GENERAL and then move on to your specific interests and learn as much as you can about the risks of owning and caring for the snake of your interest. Dont just assume that because hoggies are sold to kids as starter snakes that it means that mangroves should be treated the same. Also, compare the size of the two. I know we're talking about venom the size difference shouldnt be ignored either.

[SnoopySnake]

I'm pretty lacking in knowledge when it comes to snakes but my gut reaction to this is wondering why you think that mangroves and hoggies are similar. I mean other than the obvious rear fanged classification.

I'm going to assume that you've read about rear fanged snakes needing to "chew" in their venom as opposed to a viper that injects the venom directly into you in one swift bite. You mention mild venom hoggies but then in your next post, wonder why hoggies are ok but mangroves are not AND stating that they are equally as dangerous.

Again, I'm not the most knowledgeable guy but it sounds like you need to do a lot of reading up on the snakes you're interested in. Like book reading or article reading. Learn a little bit about rear fanged snakes IN GENERAL and then move on to your specific interests and learn as much as you can about the risks of owning and caring for the snake of your interest. Dont just assume that because hoggies are sold to kids as starter snakes that it means that mangroves should be treated the same. Also, compare the size of the two. I know we're talking about venom the size difference shouldnt be ignored either.

I don't think he meant a mangrove viper, I think he meant a mangrove snake. Mangrove snakes are a rear fanged colubrids, as opposed to the mangrove viper which is a viper and not rear fanged.

[Zelg]

I don't think he meant a mangrove viper, I think he meant a mangrove snake. Mangrove snakes are a rear fanged colubrids, as opposed to the mangrove viper which is a viper and not rear fanged.

I should have been a littler clearer I think. I WAS referring to the mangrove snake, not the viper. I was just trying to highlight that theres a difference between the two delivery systems (rear fanged vs vipers or other snakes that inject) and that just because snakes are rear fanged and dont require a hot license, doesnt mean that the snake is not dangerous (a little research for the OP sounds absolutely neccesary. As I understand it, mangroves bites can be fairy dangerous, at least more dangerous than hognose bites. Please correct me if i'm wrong.

[SnoopySnake]

I should have been a littler clearer I think. I WAS referring to the mangrove snake, not the viper. I was just trying to highlight that theres a difference between the two delivery systems (rear fanged vs vipers or other snakes that inject) and that just because snakes are rear fanged and dont require a hot license, doesnt mean that the snake is not dangerous (a little research for the OP sounds absolutely neccesary. As I understand it, mangroves bites can be fairy dangerous, at least more dangerous than hognose bites. Please correct me if i'm wrong.

Oh okay I got confused because you mentioned vipers. I don't know anything about their venom. I have also heard their bites aren't too pretty, though. I agree that they can still be dangerous even if they're rear fanged.

[Zelg]

Oh okay I got confused because you mentioned vipers. I don't know anything about their venom. I have also heard their bites aren't too pretty, though. I agree that they can still be dangerous even if they're rear fanged.

No worries friend. I dont know exactly how mangrove bites are but everything i've heard people say is that they're not to be taken too lightly.

One other thing OP might want to do is check out youtube videos of people handling these snakes(misc. rear fanged). People handling their hognoses do so without worry. The few videos i've watched of people handling their mangroves, its been with great care and a careful eye on where that head is at all times. Not to mention I constantly hear that they are aggressive/easily agitated so handling isnt always easy with them.

Again, I dont own any rear fanged but the limited research I've done on them when looking into new snakes to keep has shown that people are often mislead into thinking or at the very least simply misunderstand the rear fang classification as being harmless across the board.

[Aaron_S]

Mangroves are a slender, semi-arboreal to arboreal large rear-fanged snake. They easily reach sizes of 10 feet. Are notably defensive especially in the evening/night when they are known to be active.

I fully believe people should treat them just like a venomous snake and hook them just the same. Nothing should be taken lightly when it has the potential to injure/harm you.

[SSSSnakes]

Mangroves are a slender, semi-arboreal to arboreal large rear-fanged snake. They easily reach sizes of 10 feet. Are notably defensive especially in the evening/night when they are known to be active.

I fully believe people should treat them just like a venomous snake and hook them just the same. Nothing should be taken lightly when it has the potential to injure/harm you.

Aaron again I find myself agreeing with you, some thing must be wrong here. LOL

I do own a mangrove snake and Aaron is right on the money with what he has stated. I also own a mangrove pit viper, which is also a nasty snake. Don't for get the false water cobras, which are rear fang as well. In NY all rear fang snakes except for the hog nose require a venomous license. And years ago my hog noses were listed on my licenses.

[Zelg]

Mangroves are a slender, semi-arboreal to arboreal large rear-fanged snake. They easily reach sizes of 10 feet. Are notably defensive especially in the evening/night when they are known to be active.

I fully believe people should treat them just like a venomous snake and hook them just the same. Nothing should be taken lightly when it has the potential to injure/harm you.


Crazy. They get quite a bit bigger than I thought then.

[pet_snake_78]

Banning all rear fanged snakes seems extreme to me. There are a few researchers gathering information on the subject and I see a couple of lists have been published classifying rear fanged snakes into categories based on likelihood of danger to humans. Although the information its based on are incomplete, it's certainly a better starting point for laws than saying all rear fanged snakes are illegal. By that standard, wouldn't ringneck snakes be "too dangerous" and I've only personally handled about 10,000 of those in my life. Miracle I am still breathing! May as well ban earthworms and butterflies at that point.

[Kuamata]

Yeah, False Water Cobras were another rear fanged on my list. As far as hoggies, if you let them chew, all that may happen is some mild pain associated with swelling. Somewhere I read nausea and a light fever may also occur... In cases of an allergic reaction, death can occur.. kind of russian roulette if you don't know if you're allergic or not. Mangroves definitely pack a more powerful punch. Agree that just because they're rear fanged doesn't mean they should be taken lightly.

[Aaron_S]

Yeah, False Water Cobras were another rear fanged on my list. As far as hoggies, if you let them chew, all that may happen is some mild pain associated with swelling. Somewhere I read nausea and a light fever may also occur... In cases of an allergic reaction, death can occur.. kind of russian roulette if you don't know if you're allergic or not. Mangroves definitely pack a more powerful punch. Agree that just because they're rear fanged doesn't mean they should be taken lightly.

There's a thread by a member named 'Jaleely". She was bitten by her hognose and took pics and logged the history of the bite and the pain. It certainly was more than "mild pain" and swelling.

You'll live and most likely keep your limbs however I don't know why anyone would want this unpleasant feeling. Or be okay with the possibility of it happening.

[Aaron_S]

Banning all rear fanged snakes seems extreme to me. There are a few researchers gathering information on the subject and I see a couple of lists have been published classifying rear fanged snakes into categories based on likelihood of danger to humans. Although the information its based on are incomplete, it's certainly a better starting point for laws than saying all rear fanged snakes are illegal. By that standard, wouldn't ringneck snakes be "too dangerous" and I've only personally handled about 10,000 of those in my life. Miracle I am still breathing! May as well ban earthworms and butterflies at that point.

No one said everything should be banned.

[yeloowtang]

I agree about the mangrove !! took me a while to find this info.. but regarding the venom:
quote"
A Note On Venom Although very little is known about the venom's affect on humans, it is comparable to that of a death adder. Poorly evolved fangs and a poor delivery system make this snake's bite likely less than life threatening. Since they have a primitive means of venom delivery, they are not likely to pose a threat to a healthy adult.
quote"

in my collection, the way i see it, if i could combine my red female ATB who's a complete b###h nasty as can be with the size of my SD reticulated pyuthon female and add the venom part... it gives me a good idea how a mangrove would be like...
no way would that be at all legal where i live. plus, even if i would love to have one and they were legal !!! having kids at home, not sure that i would take the risk .. accidents do happen.

but on the venom, bearded dragons have a mild venom and are sold to anyone, of course nothing compared to a mangrove but if they were to start going crazzy on reptiles, many could possibly be banned too.

again, where i live, the municipal by-law is purposly vague, this gives the animal control officer a case by case option and can do what he wants depending on how he feels that day..
i've contacted him directly (hidden ID of course) and he confirmed that..

i also like baron racers (also venemous), rhino rat snakes (believe not venemous or maybe verry mild ) but both rear fanged.. and since he wasn't clear on his position regarding rear fangs or small hogs !!!!!
it's best to not keep them ( in my case anyways) just because if some day they knock on my door , i want all my snakes to be legal..
even if they are, i still don't trust them and stay under the radar as much as possible.
simply because they could walk in to see all my animals in the reserved climat controlled room for them with closed door, locked cages, clean, healty and say all is ok here no worries, only to come back a few days later with a warrant and the media band wagon for a sensational news day...

[shaunyboy]

I have been keeping snake for over 20+ years and have never heard of any one feeding squirrels.

I am think troll to.
3113731138

there's folk over here who feed DEAD wild squirrels to their snakes mate

don't know how big your squirrels are in the States though Chuck ?


as long as the prey has not been exposed to pesticides,etc...

over here folk will feed wild prey if they have access to them,most folk shoot the prey,then use a medical metal detector to find the bullet or pellets used,then remove them

free food if you have permission to shoot on unfarmed countryside type land


cheers shaun

[shaunyboy]

let me see if i can track that info down, i read about it in another forum not to long ago... some were saying that it may not be long before they too ban them, that it would be best to get them before that so they are granfathered in !!!

haven taid much attention since they are illegal in my province, hell i would like to have a mangrove snake , but the fact they are rear fanged and somewhat venemous, i can't risk it :(

over here Mangroves were taken off the DWA list,so are no longer classed as hot's

one day i fancy keeping a few Mangroves,beautiful snakes,intelligent fast and feisty,they be :)

i agree with Aaron,that you should not under estimate these snakes and always use hooks when dealing with them



cheers shaun

P.S. I'm not feeding the troll,merely high jacking their thread to talk to you folks :D

[Aaron_S]

over here Mangroves were taken off the DWA list,so are no longer classed as hot's

one day i fancy keeping a few Mangroves,beautiful snakes,intelligent fast and feisty,they be :)

i agree with Aaron,that you should not under estimate these snakes and always use hooks when dealing with them



cheers shaun

P.S. I'm not feeding the troll,merely high jacking their thread to talk to you folks :D

The mod team is keeping an eye on the troll. Good things have come from this thread so it can stay.

[Kuamata]

There's a thread by a member named 'Jaleely". She was bitten by her hognose and took pics and logged the history of the bite and the pain. It certainly was more than "mild pain" and swelling.

You'll live and most likely keep your limbs however I don't know why anyone would want this unpleasant feeling. Or be okay with the possibility of it happening.

I guess it really depends on how much you swell. Obviously if you have a lot of swelling, you're going to have more skin tension, which means more pain... Still, just because you may get off the hook with swelling, pain, nausea, and/or a small fever, doesn't mean it's not a cause for concern. As I said, allergic reactions can definitely prove fatal if not treated ASAP. More severe swelling may cut off circulation and cause loss of limbs like fingers, but it's rare when it comes to hoggies. Others? Yeah, you're probably more likely to lose a finger, maybe even more, just depends.

[MDT]

The pain is caused by much more than skin "tension". Components of the venom itself induce pain (bradykinins, etc...), other components allow for increased vascular permeability, which leads to the giant sausage finger....as far as allergies go...you're not gonna be allergic to it just "de novo". You gotta be exposed to whatever protein first, then become sensitized...so it's the second bite that will be the issue if you develop an allergy to any component of the venom. Frankly, with envenomation, allergies are the last thing I'd worry about.....

Weren't we talking about some goofball feeding a squirrel to a rattlesnake ??? :D

[Kuamata]

The pain is caused by much more than skin "tension". Components of the venom itself induce pain (bradykinins, etc...), other components allow for increased vascular permeability, which leads to the giant sausage finger....as far as allergies go...you're not gonna be allergic to it just "de novo". You gotta be exposed to whatever protein first, then become sensitized...so it's the second bite that will be the issue if you develop an allergy to any component of the venom. Frankly, with envenomation, allergies are the last thing I'd worry about.....

Weren't we talking about some goofball feeding a squirrel to a rattlesnake ??? :D

Ah, thanks for shedding light on that. :) I don't know all yhe really specific stuff like bradykinins and stuff. I jist know envenomation is no good.

[D Grade]

Lets not forget about Coral Snakes as far as rear fanged venomous snakes go. If you're willing to handle a Mangrove , you'd might as well handle a Coral as well (sarcastic, not recommending).

[SSSSnakes]

Lets not forget about Coral Snakes as far as rear fanged venomous snakes go. If you're willing to handle a Mangrove , you'd might as well handle a Coral as well (sarcastic, not recommending).

North American Coral snakes have front fangs. Fixed, small and weak fangs, with lethal venom.

[D Grade]

Really? I thought I read they were rear fanged. :/ I swear I learn something new everyday here.

Thanks for the clarification.

[shaunyboy]

Yeah, False Water Cobras were another rear fanged on my list. As far as hoggies, if you let them chew, all that may happen is some mild pain associated with swelling. Somewhere I read nausea and a light fever may also occur... In cases of an allergic reaction, death can occur.. kind of russian roulette if you don't know if you're allergic or not. Mangroves definitely pack a more powerful punch. Agree that just because they're rear fanged doesn't mean they should be taken lightly.

i let a false water cobra chew on a leather glove,after a minute there was a fair size puddle of venom on the glove


cheers shaun

[shaunyboy]

The mod team is keeping an eye on the troll.


i have no doubt mate...

we got a great team of mods...


i wouldn't feck with you lot


cheers shaun :D

[D Grade]

i wouldn't feck with you lot


cheers shaun :D

Literally lol'd on that. :). Thanks Shaun!

[jjhill001]

there's folk over here who feed DEAD wild squirrels to their snakes mate

don't know how big your squirrels are in the States though Chuck ?


as long as the prey has not been exposed to pesticides,etc...

over here folk will feed wild prey if they have access to them,most folk shoot the prey,then use a medical metal detector to find the bullet or pellets used,then remove them

free food if you have permission to shoot on unfarmed countryside type land


cheers shaun

Lol the squirrels here in the states can get as big as small dogs. The brown squirrels my dad hunts some can be 15-17 inches long not including the tail and have ALOT of girth.

[shaunyboy]

Lol the squirrels here in the states can get as big as small dogs. The brown squirrels my dad hunts some can be 15-17 inches long not including the tail and have ALOT of girth.

most of my Carpets would still handle some of those big guys mate :yes:

also for all the larger snakes it's free food,do you not have anything large enough to eat what your dad shoots ?

as long as the shot is removed and the squirrels are not exposed to pesticides,etc,they make ideal prey

or do you guys eat them yourselves ?

ive heard squirrels are very tasty


cheers shaun