Have beliefs?

[BWSmith]

ok. First of all, I already know that this post is not going to win me points. But it has been on my mond for some time.

I may not have been here as long as many, but i have made an observation. There seem to only be select few that express strong beliefs in different aspects of herpetoculture. The herp community is not an exclusive club. We are allowed to hold certain beliefs sacred. And you are allowed to argue the subject (as long as it is civil). Not everyone has to agree on beliefs. It would be great if we did, but that is human nature. How are newbies in the herp world supposed to learn the intracacies of our world without being exposed to the controversy? There are many to choose from, morphs, sale of giant snakes and iguanas, field collecting, to name a few. If yo dont belive in taking snakes fromt he wild, post it, debate it, learn something, anything, just have an opinion. We need to be one minded in our hobby regarding our right to keep herps as ther are many instituions trying to take that right away such as the HSUS, API and PETA. But we can also have our differences. That is what makes a great community. If a 12 year old posts that he just got a baby Retic as his first snake and you dont agree with it, say it. If you do, say it. If you don't think someone should have kept that ratsnake crossing the road, say it. If you don't have an opinion, fine. let others debate it, read it, learn from it. Get an opinion, or dont. Even if yo don't, you still have an opinion of "I don't see the harm". If you think I am ranting and raving, say it. If you think I have said something relevant, say it. The bottom line is don't stradle the fence so you don't offend someone. there may be many fences, but we are all sharing the same yard. If people dislike you because of yor opinion, fine. That is the way of the world, at least you have one. This is the internet people. Noone really has much of a face. Some might meet. Most will not. The internet is aplace where people can come together and express similar interests and different beliefs. Just like the real world. i see too many posts of people gettign animals that (in my opinion and expereice) they should not have. And all I see is "nice snake" and the like. No stances. If a mom wins her son an iguana at a county fair, don't just say "nice throw on the ring toss", make a statement. "an iguana is not a 'prize' ". Or say whatever you think. Whether many like to admit it or not, there are ALOT of herps that only the most experienced keeprs should have. Iguanas are the best selling lizard for one reason, they are cheap. Out of the hundreds of thousands of iggys sold every year, how many make it breeding age? Not many. I saw an iguana sold to a kid yesterdayin pet store. Did I jump ont he counter and preach? no. I gave a few tidbits of wisdom and wrote down the addresses of a couple good sites for them. why? Why didn't I take a stand? Because they are the only shop close to get live feeders on the off chance I need them. Does that make me a hipocrit? maybe. Debate it!

The bottom line is this: You are ALLOWED to have an opinion, even if it differs from what seems like everyone elses opinion. Don't compramise. Take a stand! Speak your mind. The admins here understand that by reading some of their posts. Talk about it, debate it, fight it! They only delete posts that are slanderous or out of line. OPINIONS AND BELIEFS ARE ALLOWED!

ok, done venting ;)

[Joe]

well said bud!! and im not just agreeing for the sake of agreeing! lol!

[nouserpif]

Good Post, makes sense... I would say this post "Won you points"...
Blah blah blah, just my babbling

Dan Conner

[J_Riley]

I agree, but in my experience, giving your opinion, even when containing facts, if they're facts someone else doesn't want to hear, causes friction. I personally don't think that's a bad thing. But unfortunately, there are many, many wishy washy people that are scared to death in this day and age to say something, or let others say it if they're in a position of power and can prevent it (good ole censorship).

I can make a simple statement about another herp site (ANY herp site) and I guarantee a moderator or admin will reprimand me - even if I were to say all the people at site xyz wear green underwear. Even if all the people at this site DO wear green underwear, I won't be permitted to say it. Why is that?

I encourage everyone to speak their mind, say what you think. I would say the same thing in person as I do on the internet.

But, it's gotten me restricted from visiting some places, turned many people against me b/c I disagreed with those people that other "sheep" followed blindly. On the other hand, it's made some people re-examine their view on a certain subject.

BE ABLE TO THINK FOR YOURSELF, use the brain that god gave you to come to your own opinion on a subject. You might learn something you didn't know b/c someone might point out a flaw in your reasoning. Someone might learn from you.

[Pixie]

Very good post and subject! We've gotten to a point where everything is so politically correct nowadays that we are afraid to offend anyone and actually speak our minds. I am in full agreement that we should be able to state our "true" opinions on different subjects and threads instead of always just saying something nice.

The most important thing though, is HOW to properly voice an opinion, an art that unfortunately eludes many... This is where problems arises in such discussions. All it takes is someone to voice a message that is a judgement or attack instead of an opinion to sour it all up.

I've always thought for myself, for as long as I can think back but along the years I did learn that there are times that it's better just to shut up and save yourself the headache.

I do hope to see more discussions and debates with more varied opinions. I just hope that it can all be done in a civil and respectful fashion. Every one has a right to voice their opinion but we must all accept that anyone else has the right to have a different opinion than our own.

Pixie

[Them and Us]

i like this thread. i think i made mention of something like this in an earlier thread once. i agree. voicing opinions is very important. anyone who says they don't have an opinion I believe is lying. no matter how many times one will say they don't care either way there is always that little thing in the back of your brain pushing you to a certain side. once again i agree, argue your point, debate, if you come up short you kow you need more ammo, so to speak. i raise my glass.






and also I have to say this : Styx & Journey = Best American Rock Bands Ever!

[Lizzy001]

i agree,....speak ur mind..not someone elses!:rolleyes:


i got band from another site for my views.

naming no site :mad:

[BurmBaroness]

Well said, BW. The most important thing is to teach the new ones to the hobby the best and worst things they can do for these animals. When all is said and done, the animals shouldn't have to suffer because someone was too proud to ask for help, or too afraid of getting jumped on to ask a question.

[eclypse_boy]

This thread to me is great. I'm one of the "newbies" in site and I'm pretty sure I could use alot of fellow chatters opinions on snake husbandry. I've asked tons of questions and mentioned my opinion that I thought would be right and some were and obviously some were not. I've heard many others opinions while some agree others clash thats life isn't it? I'll put it this way I'd prefer to be corrected and have to fix my mistakes so my snakes are taken care of properly rather than you having your opinion and not willing to share it because it's different than some one elses.

[josefg]

Very well said Brian! That is the only way we can learn from each other!

[ReptiZone]

this was to be the best therd I have read today it makes me want to start a debat now.

Lets hear some oppinions on captive crocodilians and when some one should consider buying one.

[sSNAKESs.com]

Ill speak on behalf of the administration.. HA HA!! ok no seriously.. your completely right!! Everyones views and opinions are differant and we LOVE a good debate!! Posts will never be removed because we dont agree with them, posts will only be removed if they get out of line or are not appropriate!! Great post BW. But there are always those people who agree to dissagree and they usually ruin what starts out as a good debate! :rolleyes:

[Kate]

Alright, so alot of people agree that we should have debates but where are the debates??? Lol. :)

On the croc subject, I don't feel like I have enough info about them to debate the subject but I do feel that only experienced keepers should keep large/dangerous/venomous herps of ANY kind. I think alot of people share that opinion (correct me if I'm wrong!) so it's not really much of a debatable opinion! Sorry! Lol.

[BWSmith]

alot of people agree that we should have debates

I love the irony :D

[marisa]

My only problem when people discuss herp beliefs is that there is a line.

Some things ARE debatable. Of course. Most things are. But there are some things that ARE NOT. They are solid fact based on years of trial and error. And I really hate it when (never happens here actually though, on other furms) someone tries to end a debate on one of these fact solid issues by saying "Everyone has their own opinion, to each his own!" thats BS!!! Proper diet is not a "to each his own" (when it comes down to someone say wanting to feed wild caught food or something) neither is proper heat, there are some things that are a matter of opinion and some things that are NOT in MHO! :)

I mean, you can't change an animals needs beucase you believe or feel one way or another. Needs are needs, and they aren't yours. The animals have to come first. I could go buy a lion tomorrow and tell everyone that in my Opinion they do well eating a 100% mouse diet. But the fact of the matter is that thats NOT true! They need larger meats. But on a forum a person could argue all day saying "well he is still alive and healthy" but the bottom line is he needs larger food with more bone and what not. Thats fact. Not debatable. But sure enough people willl argue and usually end up leaving it at "well to each his own" which i feel is a travesty to the animal. Because there are some things that can't be changed just because *we* want to be individuals.

Sorry bad example but all I could think of to get my point across.

That is what really bugs me. But of course, most things ARE highly debatable, and I was just mentioning the ones that bug me. The times people try and do things their own way when obviously its not the healthy correct way. :) :) :) sh*t i hope people can understand what i just wrote LOL.

Marisa

[BWSmith]

when it comes down to someone say wanting to feed wild caught food or something
Good example, kindof. That reminds me that I have to check my trap tonight to see if i caught food for Jellybean :D

All but one snake eats feeder rodents (most frozen). Should you feed snakes WC prey, no. Will you HAVE to at some point, possibly. An adult WC EDB will generally not take to feeder rodents readily if it decides to even eat. Tog et hem feeding in captivity, opten WC prey is all that will be taken. Then they can be moved over to more conventional feeding. I keep squirells and chipmunks in the feeder freezer so i have them on hand in such a case. Case in point, another EDB. 4' female. I had to get her on chipmunks, then offer a chipmunk immediately followed by a rat, then scent the rat with chipmunk, now she just takes rats. Took quite a few chipmunks, but now she pounds every rat I throw in. Pretty good for that species.

Your point is still well taken, just thought I would throw in a little pepper to the soup :D

[marisa]

Yeah well it had nothing to do with actual feeding of WC food. LOL I don't care if people do or don't. :)

I meant that when people take things that are definite no no's and turn them into a matter of opinion and defend them as such. And then pepople just agree and say "well to each his own" and I believe this is really hurtful to the animal. Because frankly, not everything IS debatable. You can't just "do your own thing" with somethings life everytime. :) It really bothers me that people sometimes do potentially harmful or dangerous things in the name of "opinion" when clearly, the facts point in the other direction.

Marisa

[marisa]

Another statement I wanted to make, although it has nothing to do with my other one...I totally agree with you BWsmith about the not being afriad to speak your mind

As we all know on SOME forums recently this is certainly (sadly) not allowed for fear of being banished away. I am glad this forum still allows a person to say "Hey Jeff why did you put that button there!" (or something of the like) LOL :)


marisa

[ReptiZone]

ya that reminds me yhen I was a bigginer and I hade a cooks tree boa or a atbbut either way it was wild caught and it would not eat for monts and I did not belive in force feading then one night buy ack of god...a bat flew in a window and my friend grabed it it was stil alive and I fed it to my snake and voila...it never skiped a meal after that jus a littel story :p

[Dom]

I personally think that the best way to learn is debating... I agree with many points out there but disagree with WAY too many ppls posts. Personally I think theres too many ppl that give others oppinion that don't know what they are doing.. I have learned to use .. u must select the right information out there. Often in order to know the answer to a question through a thread, one must know the answer first lol

The problem with debates is ppl take it to heart and it becomes personal, childish and immature attacks on others..I love a good debate.. If only they stayed good...

As for the crocodilians in captivity.. I think that 90% of all ppl who own them should not.. Unless u are trully qualified and know what u are getting into, u chould not own one.. I have had lots of experience with many crocodilians of various size and species .. and I am not 100% sure i am in the 10% of ppl that should keep one yet..

Then again.. Why ask the question .. should I keep a croc.. how about a retic or rock or Burm or hot ..

Just my ranting..

(Also keep in mind it is our job to keep the peace, meaning a moderator has to always try to be unbiased to others oppinions)..

[reverendsterlin]

I must (HAVE) to agree with Pixie, while expressing your opinion, no matter how strongly felt, if you don't do it in a way that is non-attacking nastyness becomes an issue. Online is notorious for misinterpertation in a negative direction. It takes skill to write in a manner that expresses your opinion without seeming to belittle the opinions of others. As a community of herpers we must remember that at this site we are all equals regardless of experience, age, and knowledge. I left that other site when I saw newcomers jeered at, ignored, or attacked for expressing an opinion contrary to the established clique's.

[Dom]

Since there was a good portion of this thread dedicated to the car driver / owning a large boid debate.. I split them in too to keep each subject seperated..


The other is here

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10920

Ciao

[stormyva]

One debate that comes to mind was one of the first posts I made on this site. Screen tops and glass aquariums. The debate went back and forth and I would say got a tiny bit heated, but I still come here and make posts. I learned some very interesting things from that post. (Oh and I do still use some screen tops and my snakes are not dehydrated yet :D) The point is no matter how heated if we all stay focused on the matter at hand, dont resort to name calling, and keep an open mind a lot of things can be learned. One thing I have learned about this hobby is that there are a whole lot of ways to get to the same end result. Keep an open mind and you may just learn something. I know I learn something new everyday.

[Alicewave]

I also must absolutely agree with Pixie. One thing I really like about this site is that I have never once been slammed for having an opinion or expressing an opinion. I've gotten into the habit of saying "In my opinion" or "I think that" or something just to cover myself that what I am saying is simply my two cents. Not to be taken as instruction or giving orders or anything like that. I have had many bad experiences at other sites which I will not name that if I did not completely agree with someone I was debating I was a horrible person, and even an animal abuser!!! I have absolutely never, EVER experienced that here and I thank everyone here for providing an open venue free from attack. For a while I thought it was me, because on the other sites, I did voice my opinion when I disagreed with someone. But here, everyone takes it in stride. I have not seen anyone over exert themselves to try to change anyone else's opinion.

Take the age-old substrate debate (at least for Leopard Geckos). Head over to "you-know-where" and every 5 minutes there is a new 40 post long thread on the subject. Now i'm not saying it's not a healthy debate, but come on, that's just out of hand. I have yet to see such a thing here. Granted this site is less saturated with Leo lovers but I have been a member of leo sites with fewer members where the subject is still an emotional topic. So BW, yes I agree that people should feel free to express their opinions. It seems like we don't have such heated debated here but I think that's only because everyone here is respectful of everyone else's opionions.

One thing I have concluded with regards to reptiles is that there is very rarely a "right way" and a "wrong way" to do things. There are the big no-nos like hot rocks of course. Generally though, right and wrong depends on personality and what works for the keeper. For example the substrate thing: there are those who are more interested in safety of the animal and there are those who are more interested in the aesthetics of the enclosure. I personally and somewhere in between, i like to be as safe with my animals as I can while still creating an enclosure that looks cool. Neither is right or wrong, it just depends where your priorities lie.

Anyway, I think this is an interesting topic.

[The_Omen]

I'm a realist.
As for the other sites, well, if ya can't handle the truth about your animals and their care, ya aint gonna hack it anywhere.

I could care less about humans.

I am all for the pets we keep though.

I would rather see people putting out great info and educating others about proper care and husbandry for the animals that are kept, than to see a bunch of PC crap, like 'cool snake' 'your husbandry is off somewhat, but thats fine as long as YOU feel good about killing your snake' etc....

If some one is doing something wrong, then they will be told that by me and only a few others here.
When I have the time that is.

People seeking to be told that they are doing ok and fine etc, looking for approval of their care etc, when it is wrong, and taking things as insults when they are corrected, need not apply for the job as pet owner in my book.

[Dom]

Very good point Omen although....


U MUST be able to deliver it in an innofensive way.. unfortunetly, writting can be mis-interpreted.

Its not as obvious as it seems to tell them .. "Ure wrong" .. "u're gonna kill the animal" .. that without making the other person feel like she is being attacked or humilliated.. then again.. whats more important .. how the person feels or the care of the animals.

lol I am self conrtradiction.

I say be blunt and considerate... my .02$

[Alicewave]

I agree with you Dom. In my experience, it's a lot easier to get through to someone if you are considerate of their feelings, and respect their opinion as well as your own. The more respectful you are to someone, the more likely they are to value your advice. So in that way, being considerate to the person, affectively helps the animal more than being blunt, insulting and abrasive with your advice. As they say you catch more bees with honey than with....I don't remember how the rest goes.

Constructive criticism is the key, I suppose. :)

[The_Omen]

Constructive criticism is a farce and usually it is someones way of dancing around a subject instead of being totally honest.

Inoffensive? No.
BUT, to the point and not dancing around with a wishy washy answer is best here and in life.

In other words, honesty is the best suite to play with.

[ReptiZone]

I learnd the hard way when you tell some one somthing and you suger coat it they only take what they want to hear and leave the rest when the animal dies they blame you for giving bad advice then you ask them what they did the only tell you half of what you said.

so now I say " I am not going to beat around the bush..you may mean well but if SUCH and SUCH is not changed and soon the
animale is going to die" and then I become polite again.

[Alicewave]

Well sure, sometimes the situation calls for being blunt. But to be rude right from the start wont get you anywhere either. I don't think sugar coating the situation is necessary, but there is nothing wrong with being considerate to the person you are trying to help. Being rude will only alienate them in the process and they will shut down no matter what and not listen to anything.

[Simon R. Sansom]

Very interesting thread. I agree that our society has become too "politically correct".
However, one must also learn a bit of good, old-fashioned tact when dealing with people on-line because the very nature of the medium (the written word) makes it difficult to convey the inflection and tone of the message...in other words, you might upset someone unintentionally, which is a shame, and can very quickly become blown out of all proportion.
We must also learn humility, to be able to deal maturely with constructive criticism.
We're all here because of one thing; a common interest in the world's most fascinating creatures. This binds us as like-minded individuals, and we should all make an effort to treat everyone and their opinions with respect. You don't have to agree.

Just my two cent's worth.

Have a good week-end everyone!

Simon

[BoidKeeper]

Very interesting stuff. This thread may be the only one were I can state my beliefs and not worry about the context. I feel that hots and Giants should only be kept by people with permits. These permit systems already exist in some states. There are too many giants up for adoption. The bigger the snake the bigger the price. Burms for under a hundred bucks scares me. If some inexperienced keepers hot gets out and kills the neighbour’s child then the whole hobby suffers. I also believe that when ever possible feeding live prey should always be avoided. My beliefs about the pet trade its self could fill an essay.
If only we lived in a perfect world.
Trevor