respiratory infection

[Helix Newton]

Hello!

My BRB had a mild RI recently,I took her to the vet and they gave 5 antibiotic injections which I gave her every 2 day's,she seams better now but I think she still behave differently,she became very shy,barely moves at all..the last 2 days all she did was burry herself into the ground and lay there...currently it's night time here and It looks like she is stargazing. I don't think this is normal. Help please!

[Helix Newton]

Update,just took a photo of her
http://i.imgur.com/Mb3jo7t.jpg

[Helix Newton]

she is still like that and it's been 3min now!
http://i.imgur.com/V8A7xGA.jpg

[Helix Newton]

Ok,it's been 6min now,that's definitely not normal,I think I'm gonna boost up a temperature a bit

current:
25,7 °c
62% Humidity

[Rattlehead]

Did she just started staring upward, or is this since she got the RI?

[Helix Newton]

Since she got RI

[millertime89]

It can take a few days after all of the shots for the antibiotics to completely do their job. Give it some time and she'll probably come around. Just keep an eye on here.

[Helix Newton]

It's already been 2 week now,that's why it worrying me

[millertime89]

Hmm... what type of antibiotics were used? Do you know the name of the drug administered and the amount per injection?

[SnoopySnake]

If her RI is from the humidity not being high enough I would imagine that needs to be fixed in order for the antibiotics to work.. Not 100% sure though as I haven't dealt with an RI yet.

[yeloowtang]

like millertime said, any more info regarding the meds ??
from the info you gave, I would guess Baytril (Enrofloxacin) every 48h and with the 5 injections!!!!, I would guess the vet decided to go with the strong dose versus the smaller 10 dose treatment..
if that is the case Baytril is known to have side effects, if the snake is not rapid breathing and sitting with the mouth wide open as if gasping... only thing to do really is wait it out, make sure it has fresh water daily and conditions are perfect..
snakes often shed not long after treatment.

if not suggested by the vet, when an RI is being treated, it's always best to clean/disinfect the cage daily and change water bowls for a clean one with fresh water.
this is to avoid re contamination of the snake, where as is you leave the water there for a week, the snake could keep on getting sick..

best of luck, if it doesn't get better your best option would be another vet check :(

[Helix Newton]

Hey,I'm not entirely sure on meds but it was not Baytril,the dosage was half of 0.1ml(forgot how to write that down..so confused right now),I've been changing the water daily,done some UV-C sterilizing, also tomorrow I'm ordering a new terrarium,current one is made from OSB which sucks all the humidity out of air,will probably get in on Saturday.

For now,I have raised the Temp. to 27°C and I am monitoring her regularly,can't do much else till I get the glass terrarium and thermostat,will post an update as soon as I get the new setup,up and running.

If you have any more questions & advice,please ask or tell!

Thank you!

[millertime89]

.05ml sounds right. If she's not having breathing issues and you don't see any snot bubbles around her nose and mouth I would say she's still recovering. Just give her some time.

[Snakesitter]

More important, did the vet culture the bacteria before proscribing a treatment? If not, they may have applied the wrong medicine to begin with, making the problem worse.

I agree with the disinfection plan, at least for the water bowl. Triple check her enclosure conditions as well, so that you can eliminate whatever caused this originally. Finally, I would suggest a second vet opinion, as RIs can be fast and deadly with this species.

Good luck!

[MDT]

Snakesitter is 100% correct. If no culture was done, you have zero idea what you were treating. Zero idea if the organism was susceptible to quinolone antibiotics, you don't even know if your animal has a bacterial infection that an antibiotic will fix. If your snake has a viral respiratory infection (antibiotics not gonna work), then your husbandry and a good chicken noodle soup recipe (ok, I'm kidding about the last part) is your only cure for that. If it's fungal, you have a whole other set of issues, and no, antibiotics won't fix that either.

Gotta culture to get a cure....

[Helix Newton]

Ok,I'll do my best to describe her current condition.

I've notice her strange behavior about 14 days after I got her,I didn't understand what is all about since this is my first snake so I was observing her carefully,first she became very dormant,then I noticed stargazing and coughing..it took me awhile,but when she started coughing I definitely knew something was wrong so I started digging online to find some answers when I saw the symptoms and the circumstances match RI! My first action was raising the temperature to around 34°C,then I took her to the first vet,he wasn't certain what was wrong(she also got a pink belly,but that resulted in shedding later)gave her one Baytril shot and told me to take her to the vet university on Monday.So I wen't to the university on Monday and the vet told me there that she has still some old skin left on the head which may trouble her breathing so I left her there for 2h so they could try to remove that,don't know if they did a culture in that time,but when I returned to pic her up,vet gave me 5 (currently unknown) antibiotic shots,and told me he was not going to use Baytril since it can leave some side effects on the skin.I used up all the shots 14 days ago and she is still acting a bit weird.

My consumption is:

She got RI cause of the low temperature she had at night,when I bought her I only had a heating lamp installed,and a small termo pad without thermostat and I would turn off the heating lamp at night so she could have some night time,now I think she is getting better atm. but still needs a better setting so that's why I ordered a new terrarium today and a thermostat as I will change the heating from ceramic heater to termo pads,I already mention that in my other thread and that was the advice I got.I think her slow recovery is due to the lack of possibility for me to sustain a good stable environment within this OSB terrarium and I think after I get the new setting,up and running she will be healthy in no time!

Hope this was enough intel on the situation!

Thank you! ;)

[Helix Newton]

Also if any of you guys know how to do a culture at home,please tell me.I think I've got most of the equipment needed at home,I'm a bit of a scientist myself so It probably won't be hard for me to do.

[SnoopySnake]

Don't really have any advice for the RI but definitely don't put the temp that high again.. temps at 90f or 32.2c or higher can easily kill these guys, but they really shouldn't even get over 85f or 29.4c. These guys like temps a bit cooler than most snakes. :)

[yeloowtang]

I must say that it's weird that the vet gave one baytrill shot !!!!
not to be mean, but I would not see that vet again.. for baytril to work, or any other antibiotic, you need to follow up on the full dosage.. otherwise it won't do anything, worst the snakes system could become immune to it...
the fact he just shot her up with one dose ???? tells me he knows nothing about snakes. Or very little to be fair.

many meds out there, and yes Baytril if not injected properly or in too big of a dose, can cause skin burns, and it hurts them.. usually bigger doses are split up.. say you need to inject 0.6cc you would do 3 times .2cc in different areas on the snake . best to use insulin 31 gauge syringes as they are small.
for reference:
1ml = 1cc 1cc = 10x 0.1cc and so on at 0,3cc it starts to become a big dose and that amount in one shot would hurt..

also, always inject the snake in the upper 1/.3 of the body or upper 1/2, if injected too low, I can cause liver problems since the medication is filtered by the liver before it has a chance to get in the snakes system..
if not Baytril, it could be fortaz witch has a wider spectrum range, but this one also has side effects.. they almost all do..

for the culture, the vet has to do that, they swab the snakes mouth and grow the bacteria so it can be identified.. once it is, you know what meds to use, usually a combination with the antibiotic. it can get $$$$ as they will do it to identify it, then need to do it when the snakes feels/gets better to make sure it's gone completely.
having said this, if you can do it yourself, you need to swab the inside of it's mouth and then place that in that strerile bio gel in a dish to grow it out, from there, you can find the info regarding the kinds of bacteria online. unfortunately the vet may disregard your results !!!! you would have to ask, they normally don't sell medication unless their lab got the results.

this is where the cleaning gets important.

one of the best ways to do it is with a 5% javex solution, rinsed after wards .
water bowls are the #1 source for bacteria, if you ever noticed that pinkish /yellowish slime when you wipe the bowl ?? this is usually the culprit .. to avoid it, you will need to change/clean every day

rambling on again :) but wishing you the best of luck

[Snakesitter]

Nice summary, MDT!

[Snakesitter]

A lot of excellent points here. And Yeloowtang is correct...for your own safety, check with the vet first to make sure they will honor your culture...otherwise their lab will have to start from scratch again, costing precious time on a possible emergency treatment.

Good luck!

[MDT]

Also if any of you guys know how to do a culture at home,please tell me.I think I've got most of the equipment needed at home,I'm a bit of a scientist myself so It probably won't be hard for me to do.

Hey Helix...please don't take this the wrong way, but, yes it will.

Let the lab do it.

[Helix Newton]

Don't really have any advice for the RI but definitely don't put the temp that high again.. temps at 90f or 32.2c or higher can easily kill these guys, but they really shouldn't even get over 85f or 29.4c. These guys like temps a bit cooler than most snakes. :)

Well I did that after I've read online,that boosting the temp might help fight RI

[Helix Newton]

Update: I found the receive form the first vet,it's was not Baytril,it was Enroxil.I gave all the shots in the upper part of the body as vet told me to also I'm changing her water every day since I got her,yesterday got a new terrarium as well,still waiting for the thermostat tho

http://i.imgur.com/dtzaypu.jpg

[Helix Newton]

Hey Helix...please don't take this the wrong way, but, yes it will.

Let the lab do it.

I know cultures are hard to do because of sterile environment needed to isolate one,but I would only do that for my insight on the situation,no offence taken btw :)

[Helix Newton]

Next time I take her to the vet I will ask if culture was taken,we will probably go soon,she is still sneezing but no bubbles are forming,also she got a pink belly again.

[yeloowtang]

nice set up, but i would leave her on paper towels to keep the enviroment as sterile as possible.
that moss is great but will arbor bacteria :(

changing the water is good but useless if you don t clean and desinfect the bowl every day.

having a glass tererium is also better and easier to clean..

for your info :) unless i am mistaking

enroxil = enrofloxin = baytrill they are the same but with diferent names..

the pink belly is surely a shed coming, it happens when injected with medication, just make sure the humidity is good, you don t want a bad shed on top of this ..

keep up the good work..

steph

[Helix Newton]

Thanks Steph,I use UV-C sterilizer for tank disinfection,for enroxil part I figure that out yesterday lol, also I went to the vet today will post un update soon!

Pic of sterilization in progress,that's the old tank btw.
http://i.imgur.com/8JZin8B.jpg?1

[Helix Newton]

Update:

Yesterday we went to the vet for exam, and I asked why didn't they took a culture and he said the her nostrils wore to small to wash them for sample.He looked at the snake and said that she appears healthy to him,no bubbles or other signs of RI but she is still breathing very loudly and remains very dormant,I just took a recording of her breathing,when I touch her she exhales very loudly,will upload very soon.I'm in doubts now,don't know if she is sick or changed behavior all the suddenly also kind of lost cause I don't know what to do now,We don't have many vet's here that are specialized in reptiles,so no good for looking for help there,any suggestions ?

[Snakesitter]

The problem is that "boosts" are relative, based on the species' normal range....what may mean a small increase to one type of snake could kill another. Sounds like you were fine this time, but as Snoopy said I would not risk it again.

[Snakesitter]

Helix, do you have a local herp society that might be able to provide some advice or a vet referral? You might try a web search or even ask the first vet's office is such a club exists.

[yeloowtang]

I do have concerns about the vet !!!! but in all honesty , I can't say he's bad or good.
He may be one of the best ?? things may be done differently in Slovenia !!
here at least, cultures are done by swabbing the Mucus inside of the mouth to grow the culture.
It could be that if he's suspecting an upper R I he feels that his way of doing it is best ?? I really can' t say.

but for the fun of it, if you are equipped to grow a culture, go ahead and give it a shot.
be as sterile as possible, new swab, new dish etc etc. swab the inside of the mouth all over: top, bottom, sides.. then do the culture growth.

I'm trying to find the site I found a while back with pictures of all the bacteria with names that you could use to identify it with a microscope..
but computers at works must be the slowest on the planet and having trouble searching.. will try to find it.. searching for fungal infections in reptiles ID or bacterial ID in snakes with image, something like that.

doing this would be for your info only as I don't think a vet would recognise the results :( but at least you would know..

all this said, I may very well be that your snake is acting normally ??
I have a few ball pythons that breath heavier than others and my SD reticulated python also breaths heavy when handled and they are 100% perfect..

maybe just a little more time, if the snake eats, sheds and defecates normally..!!! might be ok, just keep a close eye on it..

now to find that chart :)

[Aaron_S]

Nostrils too small to wash for a culture? What?

So the vet, if they know anything, can do a tracheal (sp?) swab/wash/whatever instead.

I just know there's a way to do it even on smaller snakes without having to "wash the nostrils".

[Snakesitter]

^^ Absolutely!

[Helix Newton]

I do have concerns about the vet !!!! but in all honesty , I can't say he's bad or good.
He may be one of the best ?? things may be done differently in Slovenia !!
here at least, cultures are done by swabbing the Mucus inside of the mouth to grow the culture.
It could be that if he's suspecting an upper R I he feels that his way of doing it is best ?? I really can' t say.

but for the fun of it, if you are equipped to grow a culture, go ahead and give it a shot.
be as sterile as possible, new swab, new dish etc etc. swab the inside of the mouth all over: top, bottom, sides.. then do the culture growth.

I'm trying to find the site I found a while back with pictures of all the bacteria with names that you could use to identify it with a microscope..
but computers at works must be the slowest on the planet and having trouble searching.. will try to find it.. searching for fungal infections in reptiles ID or bacterial ID in snakes with image, something like that.

doing this would be for your info only as I don't think a vet would recognise the results :( but at least you would know..

all this said, I may very well be that your snake is acting normally ??
I have a few ball pythons that breath heavier than others and my SD reticulated python also breaths heavy when handled and they are 100% perfect..

maybe just a little more time, if the snake eats, sheds and defecates normally..!!! might be ok, just keep a close eye on it..

now to find that chart :)

I'm going to take a culture today,I will post the entire process at evening or tomorrow,hope you find that site will all the photos of bacteria soon,I will do some digging as well. thanks!

[yeloowtang]

I'm still searching for that one I referred to.. but here's a few links that may help
Gallery of bacteria - photo gallery of bacterial species. Images of common medically important bacteria. (http://www.bacteriainphotos.com/bacteria-photo-gallery.html)

Bacterial colonies (http://archive.bio.ed.ac.uk/jdeacon/microbes/shape.htm)

i'm not sure any of the info in the links are reptiles related ???

some that I found are in form of a book that needs to be purchased
ex:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=LW3XBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA256&lpg=PA256&dq=veterinary+bacterial+colony+morphology+list&source=bl&ots=NpIKYH2zQj&sig=npo_Hc6-bNLraMp0rx9yPQWHMlA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZhbBVOzVD4SWyQS5roGwCw&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=veterinary%20bacterial%20colony%20morphology%20l ist&f=false

and the more I try to find this, the more I think I saw what I want to find in a book !!! but I'm still searching, bound to find something useful :)
What I had seen was, all known bacterial and fungal infections in pictured petri dishes under the scope with names and suggested medications..

the search goes on, in the meanwhile, I hope your snake is doing better..

[Helix Newton]

Here's what I did today,first I sterilized all the working space and the equipment needed(don't mind the dirty cooking panel,I didn't have time to clean that),than I prepared growth medium using only agar since sheep blood was unavailable for me today,when It was done I purred the medium in some petri dishes and wait for it to cool down.Taking a swab was the hardest part for me to do,I barley opened her mouth because she was very resilient,I hope I got enough for culture to grow tho.I examined my BRB afterwards and notice some dry red scales on her belly,is this normal?

Sterilization + culture plates
http://i.imgur.com/WuIYhUM.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/bxeCgVT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Dm7aLQH.jpg
2.Skin defects
http://i.imgur.com/b9QIrCW.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/I7vO0iI.jpg

[Aaron_S]

1. That isn't sterile.

2. Those pics suck. Could be dirt or beginning of scale rot. May be a shed. I don't know your current conditions.

3. What did you swab? How do you know you got the correct area or correct bacteria? How do you know which is the bad kind? What do you know about this type of bacteria at all?

[Helix Newton]

1. That isn't sterile.

2. Those pics suck. Could be dirt or beginning of scale rot. May be a shed. I don't know your current conditions.

3. What did you swab? How do you know you got the correct area or correct bacteria? How do you know which is the bad kind? What do you know about this type of bacteria at all?

1.I know,but it's as sterile as it can be..if you don't know that blue light is UV-C sterilization lamp,the same they use in hospitals and laboratories aside from that I used Zepter - Therapy Air iOn (http://www.zepter.com/MainMenu/Products/HomeCare/Therapy-Air/TherapyAirIon.aspx) for air filtering.

2.I know,the pics suck she is about to shed so I will try to make better pics afterwards.

3.I took a swab of inside of the mouth,I don't know if it was the correct area since there are no sign of infection in her mouth and I don't know witch bacteria will grow or even how do they look,that's why I will do research and do my best to find out.

[Snakesitter]

Aaron is our resident diplomat. ;-) He does not hold punches, but makes excellent points. Good luck on your culturing experiment...but I would still consult a vet first, as they be unable to use your results.

[Helix Newton]

I've noticed and I know I could have done it better but I didn't do a culture to disproof my vet I did it for my own educational purposes,who knows maybe I'll get accurate results :nerd:

[Snakesitter]

I never meant to imply it was to disprove the vet (as I understand, they never did a culture anyway). Sounds like a plan, and good luck!

[Helix Newton]

Update:Nothing yet on the plates,but i think she is getting better,I just took her out a bit and and there was no coughing or sneezing and she looked much happier than before! :)

[MDT]

Dude...respiratory infection=tracheal secretions. You have oral secretions. Invalid culture.

[Helix Newton]

It doesn't matter anymore,she is getting better now.

[Aaron_S]

Just......

[Snakesitter]

She could always relapse, so I'd continue. Better safe than sorry.

[Kuamata]

Just......

Yeah, I was going to say something, but being in some assumably third world country, chances are his vets are about as useful as he is. :/

[Helix Newton]

Yeah, I was going to say something, but being in some assumably third world country, chances are his vets are about as useful as he is. :/

Thanks for the support,and yes vets are useless here but at least I'm trying to do something, and sorry if my knowledge about reptiles is short...that's why I came here in the first place!

[Snakesitter]

You are making a valiant effort, and it is good to see! Some of us here are just very cautious, a trait learned through long experience.

[Helix Newton]

She could always relapse, so I'd continue. Better safe than sorry.

Hey,I had no intention to leave this thread,was on terrain duty this week and just got home today so here's a good update! ;)

Update:

Phenelopy has shed,the shed was good almost in one piece,no signs of sneezing or coughing notice yet,her belly is just beautiful now,no scale rot anywhere,got some shots of her will upload later so everything seams to be in order now,thankfully!

The cultures I took are still undefined, some plates appear to be growing something but it's still to early to tell,will keep an eye on those for few more weeks,that's about it for now!

Hear you soon!

[Snakesitter]

Great news! Hope it all turns out well.

[Helix Newton]

Update: So today I called microbiology lab to ask them if they could check my cultures and they wore quite happy to hear a civilian like me doing some home research and so they invite me over,at first they thought I'm a biology student or something,they wore pretty surprised when I told them I work in the military as infantry man,with a fairly low school degree.The doctor took a look at my cultures and we soon found out that the cultures couldn't fully grow because of the low nutrition in plain agar,so she took a swab from my plates and we transfer the colony to more nutritious blood agar and put them in incubator to grow,and told me that I am welcome any time to come to the lab for check ups and further study on my cultures!

It was quite a day! ;)

[Helix Newton]

Phenelopy trolling around :)
http://i.imgur.com/pjdRL0i.jpg

[marvelfreak]

Glad to hear your BRB is doing better. Plus that's cool their let you come back and check out the cultures.

[Snakesitter]

Agreed! Awesome news all around!

[Helix Newton]

Tomorrow I am calling the doctor to see how our cultures are doing,in the meantime...got a new setting in the terrarium.

on the left: wet side(coco coir + moss)
on the right:dry side (cypress mulch i think)


I know I still need a better hiding place and some climbing barks.
http://i.imgur.com/t4LsfGd.jpg
what do you guys think?

[yeloowtang]

that's awesome !!!! and really cool about the culture part.

Good job, will be interesting to see what they find..

looking forward to hearing the results..

[Snakesitter]

I agree, eager to hear results!

[Aaron_S]

It's cool that you have cultures and have a real lab growing them. However, don't get too ahead of yourself as it was already mentioned you got the wrong swab.

[Helix Newton]

It's cool that you have cultures and have a real lab growing them. However, don't get too ahead of yourself as it was already mentioned you got the wrong swab.

Did one nose swab as well,just didn't mention it in the post.

[Helix Newton]

Update:

Ok,so I called the doctor today and she said most of the dishes wore contaminated with mold and some from bacteria,there are multiple-cultures growing on some of the dishes but they all seem to be from our microbiological human environment or in my case contamination.I will know more when I get to the lab,probably on Thursday but I don't expect any good results for now.I will try to make some photos as well,can't wait! :D

[yeloowtang]

interesting !! just for info about bacteria/fungus etc etc..

in all of my years keeping snakes, i was only ever sold one sick ball python that i tried to save for 1 year :(
when we did the culture, now i can't remember the name of the fungus/bacteria/mold !!! but the vet said that it was the mold we get in water bowls or in wet cages that build up... and this is where the cleaning and desinfecting every day was important
.
this was all due to the previous owner and who knows how long it was sick before i got her..

that specific mold/fungus wasn't at all reptile related, it was common everyday mold that occures in the right enviroment, (hot,humid)
this combined with the RI made it more dificult to cure..and we needed the right meds that would take care of both issues.

now that poor snake didn't make it after all the hard work,time and $$ 700+$, just when it looked better, had a nice shed and started eating again, it woke up dead :(

I'm glad yours is doing better :)
just wanted to let you know that you will most likely not be looking for a reptile specific bacteria.

if they can somehow rule out the counter contamination and pinpoint to a pecific bacteria that comes from the swab, this would tell you what you need to know..

thje snake can be cured and perfect, but this would let you know if your husbandry needs to be double checked..

keep us posted :)

[Aaron_S]

Did one nose swab as well,just didn't mention it in the post.

As it was suggested it's a tracheal swab/culture needed. Nasal or mouth wouldn't have gotten the results needed.

Tracheal means throat/lungs.

Sorry to hear the results were contaminated.

[Helix Newton]

Update:

I called the doctor on Wednesday and unfortunately I found out that she had a death in her family and wont be working for a while,It was very awkward moment so I've decided it is best to gave her some time and I hope she calls me when she returns to work.

[Snakesitter]

I'm sure she will. Thanks for the update.