Oook where do I have to go to legally own a paleosuchus palpebrosus? (dwarf caiman)

[Niten]

If I can find a EU country where it's legal I can have it shipped there and then take it home without any border checks. It's a shame in Italy you're allowed to own a Pit Bull that can easily kill a human adult and not a 1 mt long bag of soft, docile sweetness (ehm... O.o)

[Minkness]

It is never advised that you smuggle an animal into a territory where it's illegal.

[Niten]

Yeah I guess it's not advisable ^^" let's hope for some advice anyway... My only concern is about violating the forum rules at the moment.

[FWK]

Yeah I guess it's not advisable ^^" let's hope for some advice anyway... My only concern is about violating the forum rules at the moment.

You clearly have your priorities in order. No one here is going to help you break the law (I hope). I also hope your comment directed at Pit Bull Terriers is sarcasm. I will give you some advice, I strongly advise you to not break the law.

[Niten]

sigh... T_T

[Zoo Nanny]

The problem with breaking the law with an animal isn't what happens to you but to the animal. Many countries with laws banning a particular species of wildlife is doing so for a reason such as invasive potential. In this case the animals when confiscated are put at risk of euthanasia.

[Lankyrob]

The problem with breaking the law with an animal isn't what happens to you but to the animal. Many countries with laws banning a particular species of wildlife is doing so for a reason such as invasive potential. In this case the animals when confiscated are put at risk of euthanasia.

Also his breaking the law makes it harder for others to legally own animals and easier for governments to create tougher restrictions

[Niten]

Ooooook, so tell me where I have to live to own one legally. T_T I didn't think about the euthanasia option. No way.

[Kuamata]

Please, no. Just stop. Given that you've already expressed interest in breaking the law and endangering an animal's welfare, I don't think anyone would trust you with that kind of information, considering everything that has been spoken here. Please just stop. You're giving the actually responsible reptile keepers a bad reputation by behaving like this, which results in stricter regulations on us for something we didn't do. We're tired of taking the downfall for irresponsible people that behave like you're suggesting.

Edit: Additionally, they ARE NOT, 100% ARE NOT.. for beginners like you. They take A LOT of time and dedication, and A LOT of maintenance. I had one, it was a lot of work. He had to be rehomed because of state regulations, I wanted what was best for him, not breaking the law and risking his life, as I did not know the laws restricted his species(they weren't specific about it).

[Niten]

Laws aren't clear in my country as well, last modification was probably written by a priest or a pornstar, not an animal expert for sure. They just cancelled everything "dangerous" and nobody knows what they mean with it... in fact some sellers in Italy keep on selling tarantulas and scorpions, as they cannot kill (if you are allergic a bee is enough), I may even find one selling dwarf caimans, who knows.

Regarding exerience you are certainly right, they say they have a hard temperament, they need lots of space, they have to be approached with extreme caution, never during feeding time and etc. I'll think 10 times before doing it, don't worry... Anyway at least I'm not one of those who throw them in the toilet as soon as they become mature.

Regarding reptile keepers reputation I think they can't take away anything more from us besides freedom...

[Mikoh4792]

If I can find a EU country where it's legal I can have it shipped there and then take it home without any border checks. It's a shame in Italy you're allowed to own a Pit Bull that can easily kill a human adult and not a 1 mt long bag of soft, docile sweetness (ehm... O.o)

I bet you an ignorant pitbull owner would say the same thing about large constrictors and venomous snakes. Let's not bash on other animals. Pitbulls are no different than other dogs. A poorly raised lab is more dangerous than a properly raised pitbull. Pitbulls do not lock their jaws and their jaws do not have the strongest bite force in the dog world. It's all about upbringing.

[Niten]

I know I know, I was just provoking :)

[SnoopySnake]

I bet you an ignorant pitbull owner would say the same thing about large constrictors and venomous snakes. Let's not bash on other animals. Pitbulls are no different than other dogs. A poorly raised lab is more dangerous than a properly raised pitbull. Pitbulls do not lock their jaws and their jaws do not have the strongest bite force in the dog world. It's all about upbringing.

+1.. pitbulls actually have less bite pressure than rottweilers and German shepherds

[Jrich]

Off subject of reptiles but I was brutally attacked in the face by a "family" pitbull and did nothing to provoke it when I was just a small girl. The dog was not abused and grew up in a great home. If no one was there it would've killed me. Look up dog bite stats for the US. Why do pitbulls hold the majority for maimings, bodily harms and deaths to humans but yet make up a small percentage of the US/Canada dog population. ? Check out dogsbite.org. I am sure that there are very sweet pitbulls that would never do such because I've meet them but I still exercise more caution with this breed as well as A few others. We all recognize certain kinds of snakes to be more aggressive/nippy than others why is it any different for certain dog breeds? I don't advocate for an entire ban on the breed because they have the potential to be great animals, I just don't think it's a great idea that a prone breed can be obtained by anyone.

[Niten]

The difference is that a dog is much easier to educate, they don't need any taming, they won't bite you for a lack of humidity and they naturally tend to respect the alpha. With some species you have to be very firm but usually if you have an aggressive dog it's because you wanted it or you just did Everything wrong.

[CosmicOwl]

Off subject of reptiles but I was brutally attacked in the face by a "family" pitbull and did nothing to provoke it when I was just a small girl. The dog was not abused and grew up in a great home. If no one was there it would've killed me. Look up dog bite stats for the US. Why do pitbulls hold the majority for maimings, bodily harms and deaths to humans but yet make up a small percentage of the US/Canada dog population. ? Check out dogsbite.org. I am sure that there are very sweet pitbulls that would never do such because I've meet them but I still exercise more caution with this breed as well as A few others. We all recognize certain kinds of snakes to be more aggressive/nippy than others why is it any different for certain dog breeds? I don't advocate for an entire ban on the breed because they have the potential to be great animals, I just don't think it's a great idea that a prone breed can be obtained by anyone.

There is a fundamental flaw with your logic. We do acknowledge that certain species(all dogs are the same species) of snakes are more aggressive, but we also acknowledge that individual snakes can have their own personalities. Most corn snakes are docile, but sometimes you get one who is a complete maniac that bites anything that enters it's cage. Some individual dogs are going to do unpredictable and violent.

The dog bite statistics are another thing. I don't know the veracity of the statistics. However, there is a flaw with the idea of tracking the dog bite statics of "pitbulls." That isn't a breed of dog, it's a vague term used to described a variety of dogs that "look" like pitbulls. I have two dogs that aren't pitbulls but look very much that way. If somebody saw them on the street, they probably be labeled pitbulls. And if they attacked somebody, they'd definitely be considered pitbulls(because people and the media are biased against these dogs).

[Zoo Nanny]

I would be very interested to know the numbers of these pit bull attacks that were trained fighting dogs. I find it disturbing that the author feels free to qualify the shepherds and other working dogs have a purpose to their bite. American Pit Bull Terrier is a recognized breed by the AKC separate from the American Staffordshire Terrier.

[Mikoh4792]

I would be very interested to know the numbers of these pit bull attacks that were trained fighting dogs. I find it disturbing that the author feels free to qualify the shepherds and other working dogs have a purpose to their bite. American Pit Bull Terrier is a recognized breed by the AKC separate from the American Staffordshire Terrier.

I also wonder if those "pitbulls" being bred irresponsibly and raised by irresponsible owners had anything to do to contribute to the numbers.

[ManSlaughter33]

I thought this thread was about snakes... not a debate about dogs.

[Mikoh4792]

I thought this thread was about snakes... not a debate about dogs.

More than one discussion can go on in a single thread.

[ManSlaughter33]

I was being semi sarcastic. It's such a huge topic and people feel so differently about it. It's really difficult to have a civil conversation on this. which is too bad sometimes.. I love all dogs and believe its mostly on training and the owner, but some dogs, even little teacup dogs, are just not people friendly..

[Minkness]

Agreed. I love pitties. But also know I am not a good owner of one. I know this about myself, but not everyone does, and that's when things get out of hand. -shrugs-

[Cmwells90]

The difference between snakes and dogs is soo different. Dogs have a social hierarchy and will assign themselves to the pack, if there isn't any leadership, they can get out of control. Snakes don't have this at all, if there's a leadership role in their lives it would only stress them out because they aren't social. so to compare snakes to dogs is a LOT different and wildly inaccurate.

[Minkness]

I think it was more of a comparison to different behaviors and personality not an actual comparison of social being.

So sating a carpet python has a tendency to nip, would be the same as saying so do dachshunds.

Saying a BP is chill would to say that a golden retriever makes a good family dog.

Or, saying that a responsible owner who has a known nippy snake will yake certain precautions to prevent the snake nipping a child. As should a dog owner, ect.

[Zoo Nanny]

Also part of the discussion here has to do with responsible and legal ownership of animals. This is the same whether you own dog, snake or caiman.

[Minkness]

Very much agreed. =)

[Kuamata]

The difference between snakes and dogs is soo different. Dogs have a social hierarchy and will assign themselves to the pack, if there isn't any leadership, they can get out of control. Snakes don't have this at all, if there's a leadership role in their lives it would only stress them out because they aren't social. so to compare snakes to dogs is a LOT different and wildly inaccurate.

^ This. Pitbulls are amazing dogs. Loving canines, loyal to the end. They will do anything to please their owners, and in the right hands, that makes them one of the best companion dogs, however, they ARE NOT for everyone, and that is one of the biggest mistakes people make.

They are a dog that 100% needs a social structure with you at the top, otherwise things can and probably will get ugly, I've seen it happen before, and have seen the mauled victims as a result of a pitbull who decided she was the leader.

I had a pitbull. I do now, but not the same one. This pitbull, Zoey, was my best friend. I had her for years before it was time to move out. We lived happily, shared many good and bad memories. The only place that accepted most of my pets was an apartment that, however, was strictly not pitbull friendly. Being that I loved her, I kept her at my mom's, who lived about 5 minutes away. That way I could still visit her, take her to the dog park, etc.

It was a horrible mistake I made, and I still do not forgive myself. I should have taken her and just hid her, maybe things would of ended for the better... Keep in mind she had lived in this house for years with the victims, and was even around as they were raised from baby to adult.

So, a few months later my mother came home to a mauled cat. Milly, a kitten we rescued and my mother kept in memory of her Himalayan that passed from a tumor and being too old to safely operate. No dogs had blood or fur on them or around their mouths. We didn't want to automatically assume it was the pitbull.

Another month, another cat. This time it was Sable, a cat I raised and she later took to my mother, soon becoming her most beloved cat and the only animal she permitted to stay for hours in her bedroom. Same thing, no indicators of who did it.

Now, for a while we suspicioned it was one of her 3 pugs, at the time, as she was in the laundry room when she heard a commotion down the hall. The door to the laundry room had blocked Zoey from being a part of the commotion, meanwhile Princess initiated an attack against one of her cats and cornered him, and the others followed suit. She was then closely watched and confined when not supervised to see if it changed anything.

Well, one night they were letting everyone out to the back yard to have their final potty break for the night. My stepfather went to let everyone back in when he heard a squalling. He thought maybe Queenie(the eldest pug, leader of the other pugs, and 'second child' to my mother) was stuck under the porch. He pulled out the light on his cell phone to find Zoey with Queenie in her mouth, by the stomach, thrashing her side to side like a ragdoll. He tried to beat Zoey off, but she wouldn't let go. She finally let go when his bulldog rammed her and chased her down the yard. Queenie's blood pressure wouldn't stabilize at the emergency vet, and she later passed that night. Zoey was taken back to the humane society, after many years, and we were promised she would find an animal free home.

It was a mistake I still regret. I wish I had done things differently.. Since I was not a regular, constant part of her day, as leader, she assumed the leader role, as my mother is not the leader of her dogs. She does not place leadership on them, she's not that kind of person. I still miss her, despite what happened... and hope she had a second chance.

[Minkness]

I started crying reading this....

And again...love em...but know they are not for me.

Sorry for your many losses.

[Kuamata]

I started crying reading this....

And again...love em...but know they are not for me.

Sorry for your many losses.

Thanks... Admittedly I took Sarge in from the streets, hoping I'd fill the void... but he's nothing like my girl. I've, however, grown to love him for who he is. A big ol' lovable lug who just wants a lot of hugs and cuddles. As I told you in private, we think someone may of beaten him into his.. not so smart state.. as he has an extreme fear of belts. No one ever claimed him, so either that person just didn't bother to look online or at the local humane society(where we reported him found), or they simply didn't want him and kicked him out. Who knows... and I know I will never make that mistake ever again, no matter how 'dumb' or sweet he may act.

Admittedly, I still feel my heart drop when I see a dog that looks like her... and match photos to see if that's her, so I at least have closure that she got another chance.. or maybe even be reunited, risky though that may be... but I have not had such luck, yet, finding my old friend...

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/31269_1515105037079_4734450_n.jpg?oh=5738f7a7c0dea 7c2bfac4264f086c69c&oe=556F8699&__gda__=1430260227_581b7121bebef43c59c97e8df08aaa5 0

[Zoo Nanny]

This is my friend Jacque's dog. He has an amazing story to tell.
Ray, Kanab, UT | I'm Not a Monster (http://imnotamonster.org/work/ray-kanab-ut/)
'Vicktory dogs' travel road to rehabilitation seven years later ? Metro (http://www.metro.us/sports/vicktory-dogs-travel-road-to-rehabilitation-seven-years-later/tmWngu---10hMDkIruvOYc/)
If you are on Facebook he has his own page where you can follow his progress. Ray the Vicktory Dog

[Minkness]

Yeah...

I won't get started on the animal abuse thing.

=(

[Kuamata]

See? Raised with 'em. This wasn't one of the victim cats, but she was raised with many litters of kittens, as we rescued them. Abigail is with my mother. She is very fat and happy, and loves lots of attention 'cause she know she's beautiful, lol.

Also got a pic of her with one of my old ferrets, but don't wanna overload the thread with my pics lol.

https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/250517_2142148672778_6136908_n.jpg?oh=35b15b19f74d 5e03e4ccf86cadbe8483&oe=553E758D

[Zoo Nanny]

He's a cutie. Too many of these dogs have lived harsh lives by the time they reach adulthood. He's a lucky one ending up with a loving home, many end up being bait dogs.

[Kuamata]

This is my friend Jacque's dog. He has an amazing story to tell.
Ray, Kanab, UT | I'm Not a Monster (http://imnotamonster.org/work/ray-kanab-ut/)
'Vicktory dogs' travel road to rehabilitation seven years later ? Metro (http://www.metro.us/sports/vicktory-dogs-travel-road-to-rehabilitation-seven-years-later/tmWngu---10hMDkIruvOYc/)
If you are on Facebook he has his own page where you can follow his progress. Ray the Vicktory Dog

Oh, I know Ray :) I'm so happy he was saved <3

[Cmwells90]

Kuamata, I'm sorry to hear such a story. But it really shows you how much people understand about the social needs of dogs. If so few people fully understand dogs, what makes us think they'll try to understand any other type of animal, let alone non-social animals like reptiles?

[Tgunz127]

More than one discussion can go on in a single thread.

Actually it was about dwarf caiman and how to get one

[Zoo Nanny]

How to get one and bring it back into a country where it is illegal to own.

[Tgunz127]

Sorry mikoh I quoted the wrong reply

[Tgunz127]

I thought this thread was about snakes... not a debate about dogs. this is the one I wanted to quote

[ManSlaughter33]

this is the one I wanted to quote
Yes I know.. If you saw my post after that.... lol
also I realized that it wasnt a snake he was after, after I posted that.

[Jrich]

I think it was more of a comparison to different behaviors and personality not an actual comparison of social being.

So sating a carpet python has a tendency to nip, would be the same as saying so do dachshunds.

Saying a BP is chill would to say that a golden retriever makes a good family dog.

Or, saying that a responsible owner who has a known nippy snake will yake certain precautions to prevent the snake nipping a child. As should a dog owner, ect.

This is exactly what I was getting at. The reason why there are breeds of any kind of animal is because they have certain characteristics(physical/behavioral) that set them apart, they were bred for something specific. Retrievers retrieve, pointers point, bloodhounds for their incredible nose and pitbulls for baiting animals much larger and for fighting(not the case nowadays thank goodness but that doesn't mean the traits disappear). Yes there are many individuals that deviate from the norm but I won't ignore statistics and maybe pitbulls more than any other breed do end up in the wrong hands. Bad people or gangs wanting the big bad dog in town. To reiterate I do not advocate a ban on pits, I do not hate pit bulls but I really think they are dogs that require extra attention by responsible owners. It makes me happy to see them in loving homes living life the way they should. We could go round and round in circles on this and bring up the great conversation of nature vs nurture and what's above and beyond a dogs cognitive ability but really in the end it's something that man has done. Anyways, back to reptiles, I think they are way cooler.

[IW17]

First to the op, if it's illegal, then under no circumstances should you get one. Just no. Not to mention small or not these animals require zoo quality enclosures, with both land and water. Most people I know with dwarf caiman recommend 10' enclosures or bigger with a 2:1 water to land ratio.

As to the subject of pit bulls, it all comes down to bloodlines and ownership. Pit bulls historically were fighting dogs so they were trained to be trustworthy animals to people, otherwise they would be put down. But this explains their aggressive behavior to other animals. But over the years every jackoff gangbanger and lowlife has trained them to be guard dogs. And unfortunately this behavior gets passed down through the generations. This is why so many pits get labeled unpredictable. I know many many people with great loving pits that wouldn't hurt a fly. But these animals come from clean bloodlines where for generations have been bred for show. But buying from an unknown breeder, animal shelter, or rescue, leaves many unknown attributes. Which is why even if the animal is raised right, they shouldn't be trusted around children and other animals. I love these dogs, but the people who own them must take the proper precautions.

[Tsubaki]

Got not much to say in the caiman front, if you want to own one legally.. Move to a different country. And prepare to sacrifice at-least an entire bedroom to house one.


About the dogs.

It makes sense more (Recorded!) biting incidents happen with pitbull-like dogs, stupid 'tough' guys get one because of their reputation.. And proceed to f*ck the dog up. Yes, it is also easier to mess up a pitt than it is to mess up a retriever. But it is also unfair to say that the breed itself is therefor dangerous. No. Any person who raises any kind of dog wrong, has a dog that is potentially dangerous. Ban the pittbull, and there will be a new one.. (Shepherds, rottweiler, mastiffs, bulldogs, picks one) Anyone wanting any kind of dog, should know what they can and can not handle. Sadly many people just think they're perfect and can handle everything, those stupid people purposely raising their dogs wrong aren't helping either.

Some of it is unfair media as well b.t.w, at-least around here it is. A biting incident in my city. A small child got nipped in the arm, after slapping a Lab-boerboel mix, it resulted in a few band-aids. Media exclaimed it was a 'pittbull-like' dog that 'Ferociously' mauled a childs arm. Not saying that is ok that the dog bit, no way!! Just showing how easy it is to push everything on one breed. A teacup chihuahua who repeatedly bit a newborn baby in the face 2 years ago, leaving it scarred for life...Was announced as a 'dog' in the media. No breed, nothing. Would it still have said 'dog', if it has resembled a pitt even slightly?? And how many small dog bites go unreported? I think they would outrank any larger dog in the sheer amount of biting incidents, even if they cause less damage, it still doesn't change the fact that those dogs shouldn't be overlooked just because of that.

I would never ever leave any dog, not my own not any. Alone with a child, or any other pet. No matter how well trained the dog is. Accidents, even freak accidents happen. It is never ever worth the risk for me. Not because i don't 'trust' my dog, i rather be around to spot and resolve any potential issues as the leader, than let them resolve it themselves.. My dog is a rescued Am stafford, with an abusive and violent history. With allot of work her behaviour issues were resolved, now she is just a loving and sweet dog. There are still people who won't put their dog in the play-pen until i take mine out, even though she is just happily playing with the other dogs. These are often the same people who have no issue with their kids/dogs walking up to my neighbors cute looking weimaraner, even though that dog would shred up everything that moves. Now theres a dog that should wear a mandatory muzzle, or get a owner that can actually handle him.

The actual dog (breed) being the problem, and not the way it is raised or handled, is extremely rare (just look at what ceasar does). Those rare cases that the dog really has some faulty wiring, are definitely not more common or exclusive to pitts/staffords.

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj100/Senna-Ichurin/DSC07797_zpse5088a30.jpg

[Minkness]

I remember a few years back the 'bad' dogs were actually german shepards because it was coming out that through bad breeding most of the breed (in America) had mental issues and could go from laid back to attack for no reason. Even well trained police dogs had to be put down because they would attack the officer's family, or ignore the command to disengage a criminal, causing severe wounds. That's when they started to bring in other breeds as police dogs and revamp the breeding programs. That's a case of pure unpredictability as it was actually something wrong with their brains. =/

[IW17]

Tsubaki, very well put. And freaking gorgeous amstaff!!!

[Tsubaki]

Thanks! And she sure is a looker now that she's healthy :D

[Jrich]

Beautiful dog.